Optima or Grandee

[dorsey]

I live in the Baltimore area and am looking to purchase my first hot tub.  I have narrowed my selection to Hotspring (Grandee or Vanguard) or Sundance (Optima).  I want to spend no more than $7-8K for everything that I need and I assume I can negotiate the list prices for each.  The local dealer is listing the Optima for $8,500 (including delivery, setup and chemicals), while the Grandee is $9,500 (including delivery, setup, chemicals and stairs).  My wife and I (three children) have decided against a lounger.  I am willing to pay for quality, but do not want to pay more than necessary.  

Any suggestions/comments?

[needaspa]

I am looking at the Optima as well.  I have been quoted 7500 (which includes 300 sales tax) for led light upgrade, cover, lifter, start-up chemicals.  I personally think that is still a little high. (60 to 75% markup on msrp)  I am trying for 6500.  

I have looked at the hotsprings.  The only problem is paying for the name!  I do not think that are any better or worse then Sundance.  Also, I am not too excited for paying for features like waterfalls on the Hot Springs.

Although, the Optima has Aromatherapy which I think is just marketing.  I had it on during a wet test for 30 minutes and reallly couldnt notice it thats with new beads out of the box.

My point is that both companies make a great product.  I am trying my best to widdle down the markups and I guess I will have to live with the unneeded options.

Take your time and negotiate over a period of time to make sure you get the best deal.  No matter what people say, buying a spa is just like buying a new car!

Anyway, hope that helps.

[IOWASPAMAN]

Pardon me while I snap.
Being a spa salesman and knowing what wholesale cost is on both the grandee and the optima, those are actually good prices to help your local retailer stay in buisness. $6500 for an Optima with all the stuff they have added, and cost of overhead, the dealer would lose money. But who cares, as long as you get a great deal. If he doesn't sale it to you at your price you'll buy a spa elsewhere, because afterall a hot tub is just a hot tub, right?!?
It's a wonder why I see posts talking about a local retailer going out of business, they must have just been bad business owners right? Pool and spa store employees aren't trained professionals, are they?
Sorry to go off on a rant but seriously, do hot tub shoppers believe we just pull our margins to stay in business out of thin air? If I have offended anyone, I'm sorry, but hot tubs cost a little more from the factory than you think.

[ebirrane]

I also live in the Baltimore area and was looking at the Optima from Hohnes and the Grandee from Regina I went with the 2003 grandee model for something like $7900.  I didn't think the 2004 Grandee was so expensive, though. Haggle a bit.

Here are my thoughts:

Optima
1) Much "stronger" jets.  When on full power they actually moved my (a little) and my wife (_alot_).
2) Footwell dome was nice, especially for keeping you in your seat.
3) We really liked the handles for getting in/out.
4) Bucket seating.
5) Meant to run at 60 amps, if installed with 50 amps can't run heater and both jet pumps.
6) GFCI breaker box not included in price/installation.

Grandee
1) Jets seemed "just right" for us. A few really got my blood flowing. Wife liked that they were not as hard.
2) Open seating (a big plus for us).
3) Moto-massage really grew on us, but it needs 70% or more diverter power to move up and down.
4) Can't run all jets at full power (see #3).
5) No handles inside tub.
6) A little bigger than the optima (8.5x7.7 instead of 7.7x7.7)

There's another thread on here called "Monopoly" were I experienced some frustration over Hohne's pricing which I think is about $400 or $600 more than it should be.  The Grandee for us was almost $800 cheaper than an optima, so I'm not sure about the reply saying that you pay more for hot springs.

The Sundance dealer, to us, really went negative about the Hot Springs tubs saying their jets are underpowered and their jet placement is ineffective and inaccurate. We have found both things to be untrue based on wet testing. They are *both* good tubs.

The Grandee, for sure, has less powerful pumps, which is one of the reasons it runs at 50 amp (I think, but I'm not an electrician). But we found the water massage on the grandee to be just as desirable to us (different, for sure, but just as desirable).  To us the massage was less violent.

Without question you need to move back and forth in *either* tub to get a full massage.  The moving moto-massage helped keep down itching.  We found it a little harder to shift comfortably in the bucket seats of the optima as itchy spots developed on our backs.

Recommendation?

Wet test and go with whatever makes you happy.  Don't listen to sales gimmicks, as both are great tubs.  If you like both equally, go with the one that is cheapest and/or the dealer that makes you the most comfortable.

When you wet test, stay in the tub for a while. We sat in there for anywhere from 10-20 minutes to get a good feel for all the jets on our backs.

The nice thing is, between these two tubs, you can't make a bad choice.

-Ed

[poolboy34]

Iowaspaman,

I agree with you 100%.  I myself work in the pool & spa biz, and if customers knew what we actually pay for the tubs, marketing, sales and staff training, eletrical..etc......they'd se that the prices we sell at are fair.  I also understand that there are many people on this board who are trying and/or are thinking about getting into the biz.  It's takes MANY years for a new dealer to establish themselves in a market, so be patient.   BTW you aren't just paying for the "name" when you buy a Hot Spring Spa, or a Sundance Spa, or a Dimension One spa for that matter.  You are paying for a spa that is built using the stringest of manufacturing standards that insure a consistently great product.  You also paying for the inovations that these pioneering companies Develop, test, Patent  & incorporate into their spas.  Anyways that's my 2 cents.

Jason
Store manager for a Dimension One & Caldera Spas Dealer

[Mendocino101]

Neddaspa
..you said.."Buying a spa is just like buying a new car”. Just how is that? It is actually nothing like buying a new car...first off Unlike buying a car....THERE in NO FEDERAL LAW that assures all dealers PAY the same for the SPA....There is NO Law the says for example that you have to sell spas and that their combined energy consummation has to average so much the same way auto manufactures must meet fuel standards..UNILIKE buying a car the freight cost for shipping varies on how where and how many spas you are shipping at one time…..Cars/Truck pay the same destination fee..(Shipping/freight)…no matter where they are in the country..Again it is FEDERAL law. There are no published invoice prices for spas....again What makes you think buying a spa is anything like buying a car..Also as you heard from many others on a another board the deal that you SEEM to think is fair in your own self serving mind was for the dealer to make was $500.00 on the other board...that 500.00 is supposed to cover the cost of rent.... insurance.... staff...service.... and oh yeah profit after paying those things... it is not REALISTC.. By your own numbers you want to allow a dealer to make a GROSS profit of 8% most any business would go bankrupt rather quickly operating on that (low turn over businesses) what you just don't seem  to get is that.... that nobody (a dealer) has any interest or desire of doing business with you at the price... that YOU and YOU ALONE think it is fair...your arrogance I find appalling.... as you seem to feel you have the right to tell another how much money they can earn... Earlier in other messages here you asked about why someone felt the need to tip the delivery person in a very condescending manner....  author=needaspa "You gave the man a $20 tip   Did you feel the delivery cost was too low?  Or did you feel that the dealer didn't overcharge you enough on the spa?…You also spoke about someone doing the hard labor and you said…
"Now I agree with you Florida!  I would rather pay someone to throw out his or her back mixing concrete and pouring a slab!  All though, I would price shop for the lowest bid and heck I might even have companies bid against each other... you than went on to say
"Bottom line here - I cherish my health and my money.  It's what your time and health is worth"
Needspa...You seem to want an awful lot...but you just do not want to pay a fair price for it...I think the bottom line is you cherish everything about yourself and without any regard to anyone else.

[needaspa]

Mendocino - The comparison to car buying I made was to mention the fact that price is negotiable.  Unless one has an unlimited budget and can throw money around, one should always negotiate on the spa price.

I am pretty sure I can get at or near 6500 for the above mentioned spa.  I am talking to several stores.  The highest I have seen is 10000.  Now, the best price I have in hand is 7500.  From the highest to the lowest, the diff is 2500 (10000 - 7500).  And at 7500, the store is still making a generous profit.  I know there is still fat to trim.  BY shopping around around just a little, I have managed to save 2500!

Another point I forgot to mention in the above:  To me, price should be considered priority #1 and above dealer reputation, service, etc.  The spa you buy is covered under a manufacturer's warranty not store warranty.  Do not deel pressured to buy from a store that has been in business for years and seems to be the nicest, politest, etc.  The manufacturer must stand up and fix any problems you have.  You are not tied to the store where you bought it.  There are numerous Sundance/Hot Springs/etc stores, you should have no problem getting service should you need.  

[wmccall]

Iowaspaman,

I agree with you 100%.  I myself work in the pool & spa biz, and if customers knew what we actually pay for the tubs, marketing, sales and staff training, eletrical..etc......they'd se that the prices we sell at are fair.  

Then don't put completly insane unjustifyable BS retail prices on spas and then claim its on sale everday. Maybe a few customers think you are great when you sell a spa for $7000 when you had a $10000 price tag on it in the store (a price you woudn't even think of saying pubicly outide the showroom.)

I do think Iowaspaman was a little out of line jumping on this one poster because he has a figure in mind he is working with.  No force on earth is going to get his dealer to sell at a loss, and given your industries practices of inflating and hiding prices, that poster probably doesn't know if that is an unreasonable price, but he is going on what he thinks is best.  I sure don't consider it good practice whining about those dumb customers.

[wmccall]

Pardon me while I snap.
 

Perhaps its time for a career change? If $6500 is unreasonable for that model then he just won't get that deal.  And if that model is really what he wants  he won't get it from another dealer.  The poster isn't  putting a gun to the dealer's head.


From what I have seen there is a lot of simiarities between the auto industry and the spa industry, at least in the sales category.  However, if the auto industry would put a $30k price on a Tercel and then made the customer feel good getting out the door spending only $17k congress would be launching an investigation.    

That might be why the public has embraced Saturn and their no haggle priceing.  

[Lori]

From what I have seen there is a lot of simiarities between the auto industry and the auto industry  

Hey Bill,

Been using Spawoman's hair dye?    

Just teasing!!!  LOL!!!

[wmccall]

Needspa...You seem to want an awful lot...but you just do not want to pay a fair price for it...I think the bottom line is you cherish everything about yourself and without any regard to anyone else.

while maybe I can understand Iowaspamans frustation, your way out of line.  you can tell all that from needespas post? All he said was he was trying for a price of $6500.   I have to guess from your post, you are a dealer.  Can you please tell me the name and location of  your dealership?  To attack a potential customer suggest to me your a dealer to avoid.

[wmccall]

Hey Bill,

Been using Spawoman's hair dye?    

Just teasing!!!  LOL!!!

Oooops, thanks.

[Mendocino101]

Bill...I am actually not a dealer...at this time.... and if you read all that I wrote I was not attacking someone for this one post.... after reading several of his posts I do feel that all he does care about getting is what’s best for him without out regard to others...I know you are a owner with a lot of knowledge...and you do try and help those who seek advice...What you said about Saturn is true but also odd...because of marketing people feel great about the no hassle way of shopping and the deal they get is....To pay FULL RETAIL for their car.....All Saturn did was market...MSRP ...as the price...and their dealers must sell it for that price....It is the very same thing that MSRP was supposed to do for other car makers....My point to Needaspa is that you said you feel that 500.00 was a fair profit for a dealer to make and many who do sell the spa you want....have said that 7500.00 is very fair and appears to be better than what most other shoppers paid...When I started shopping I was going to get a  Caldera and after reading what others were paying....I knew the price I had been given was far better than any I saw posted but it would be unfair both other shoppers and other dealers to post the price I was given because I was fortunate to be in the right place at the right time....but it was not the common value of that spa.....All I am saying to be fair with those you deal with.....Shopping for a fair and good price is smart.....but trying to dictate what you feel someone should make is not.....I mean the cost of doing business varies from state to state.....rent...insurance cost.....shipping.....they are not the same everywhere....good luck in finding what you want.....

[poolboy34]

well, it does matter who you buy your spa from, b/c believe it or not that compnay is responsible for ALL service on that product.................yes it is a "manufactuer's warranty...............but Watkins and Jacuzzi are NOT going to send a spa tech cross country from CA to work on your Spa.  All dealers siogn service agreements to service all spas that they sell from that particular manufacturer.  And in many cases if you go to a third party for your service work all of your warranties will be null and void.  If you want to spend 6500$ on a spa, get a sweetwater, b/c they are more w/in your range of prices.  And those MSRP's on the spas are from the manufacturers, NOT the dealers.  And as far as posting our prices......we aren't legally allowed to do that , the manufactuers regulate this.

[Steve]

I'm jumping here (may be a bad move but what the he11)

I get a real kick out of watching people negotiate pricing and then assuming they are negotiating geniuses. needaspa might feel great at negotiating his potential spa down to $6500.00 but if the dealer left enough "wiggle room" to go down to $6000.00, then in all reality, he's a poor shopper. As a side note, I'm going to guess that needaspa is not a business person. I don't say that negatively, but rather as an observation.

Now, I have a spa that I need $8000.00 to make the margins I need in my area with my overhead and business costs to stay in business. If I start out at $10,500 and get worked down to $9,200.00, who wins? This business of inflating suggested retails just to show fake value really pisses me off. Yet, Joe consumer falls for it every time. They go home telling there buddies how he really beat up the salesman and got a GREAT DEAL. Meanwhile, the salesman (and more importantly the owner) are counting their money and laughing at this twit who thinks he's so smart.

Now, take that same circumstance and this time it's a friend of the guy who just bought and got the spa for $9,200.00. This guy is a real pit bull and works the salesman down to $9000.00 even. Now how does this first shmuck feel?

My point here is that I really hate reading these posts on pricing. There are way too many factors to determine a good price. Someone buys a Jacuzzi (just an example) in Alabama for $7000.00 and the next person says that $7800.00 is way too much 3000 miles away. Come on....

Until you know what that given dealer needs to make to stay in business in their given area, how does Joe Blow have any concept what so ever to determine price.

This isn't the jewelry business where there's 100% mark-up though some consumers feel different. The real difference with cars is that there's more than 1 Ford dealership in most cities and we can compare pricing with apples to apples. With hot tubs, you have to do your best. Here's how I shop for big ticket items.

If I'm seriously considering the purchase on a given product, I will research it based on quality and who I want to give my hard earned money to. I want someone who knows what they're talking about and I will ask what their best price is. I only want 1 price and I won't counter offer. I will make this clear to them. If it's what I feel is acceptable, I'll buy it. Otherwise, I'll walk out and continue on. If this guy comes back with a better price or calls a day later, then I know he was trying to rip me off initially and didn't give me his best price like I asked. So many people buy this way and really don't consider the fact that the company was quoting you higher to make better margins. Do you really want to deal with someone like this? Not me thanks.

Every Beachcomber customer in our city pays the exact same price. We make what we need to and I could care less how good your negotiating skills are. Wave thousand dollar bills in my face... You're paying the same as the guy before you and the next one after. If ya don't like it, I tried my best and I have little respect for people who shop strictly by price anyway.

There's other ways of showing value and playing with consumers minds isn't one of them. It's an insult and I amazed people still shop that way at all.

In closing, the next time you get a price that shows huge savings from the suggested retail, ask to see a deal where the spa was actually sold at that suggested retail price. I bet they can't do it. It's perceived value people and someone's trying to scam you.

Steve