Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: East_TX_Spa on February 28, 2006, 12:44:45 pm
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In another post, hymbaw pointed out that a certain brand of spa charges more for full foam than thermal pane. It got me to thinking about an argument that some folks on here (and one former participant in particular) always put forth about TP spas costing more to produce.
Why then, on some manufacturer's that offer both, is the full foam package considered to be an upgrade and more money is charged for this service? What am I missing? I'm still trying to learn more about this business.
Terminator
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I know form the recent posts that Emerald offers the upgrade. What other Manufacturers offer it?
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I know form the recent posts that Emerald offers the upgrade. What other Manufacturers offer it?
I'm thinking I've read that Master Spas offer it, too. Maybe Dynasty?
Terminator
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Term,
This is speculation on my part, but it is likely that whatever insulation method is the standard for a given manufacturer is the least cost option. On the other hand, the method that they are not set up for and that they do not do routinely would cost more for them to do. With something as fundamental to the construction of a spa as insulation, I am surprised that any company would be willing to do it both ways. The materials, equipment, training for the workers who perform the installation must be very different for the two different approaches. My guess is that only relatively low volume producers could accomodate such a scheme.
In the FWIW department, having read all the various pros and cons, it is my opinion that either insulation construction is undoubtedly OK if it is well executed. The differences in performance are probably similar to those one could expect due to color choice.
I can tell you that I have been worried sick about the insulation in my Envoy - NOT! :-)
Regards,
Bill
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Here's what Master Spa had to say:
http://www.masterspas.com/arctic.asp
The POLAR Master Insulation System. At Master Spas, we believe you deserve to know the truth about your spa's energy use. Many companies would lead you to believe their spas are the most energy efficient because they fill them with foam insulation. Well, it's not that simple. The truth is, they rely on the foam insulation for structural support. We have a better way. It's called the Polar Master insulation system, and its been confirmed by an independent testing lab that no fully-foamed spa is more energy efficient than a Master Spa with the Polar Master system. However, at Master Spas, the choice is yours - full foam insulation is available on most models at no additional cost.
Dynasty offers an Artic Foam insulation (not sure what that is exactly), and on thier Advantage series offers Full Foam insualtion.
huh.
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Mr. Stevenson, that is a good point and one that I did consider.
I'm wondering why it would be considered an "upgrade" for a manufacturer to offer this option above and beyond their "standard" product. If they are touting the advantages of TP, it seems to me that is where their loyalties would lie and they would stick by their guns. It smells of duality in telling the customer what they "think" they want to hear, in my opinion.
Terminator
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Term,
There are two kinds of deals when it comes to why people do the things they do. Rational responses and emotional responses. My rational side tells me there is no appreciable difference in terms of measurable performance between insulation types. Emotionally, some people sit on either side of the debate and that is true for manufacturing people, dealer people, and consumer people. There is no accounting for the emotional response with rational analysis.
I know people get all worked up on this topic, but to me the whole insulation argument is just plain silly. For example, what difference does it make to the insulative performance of full foam, if the full foam also provides structural support for the shell? The answer is, there is no difference attributable to this aspect of full foam. Another example, what difference does it make if thermal pane is easier to remove if repairs are necessary, if the manufacturer builds spas that hold up well and don't require repairs for the life of their spa? Here, too, the answer is there is no difference.
These are rational arguments, just as your logic and quest for understanding is rational. You and I are not likely going to get inside the heads of the emoters.
BTW, please call me Bill. The Mister word will remind me of my Navy days and cause nightmares. That is an emotional response. ;-)
Regards,
Bill
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This has always been my point regardless of those who offer both, when you go with full foam most times it is a up charge for it....I am strongly of the believe that those who offer both do so only to appease someone and basically tell them what they want to hear rather than doing what they feel is the best.....I can respect either one I just have hard time with those who offer both as I can not believe they have a genuine commitment to either one.
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Thermal Pane Insulation is better than full foam. As I was told....heat does not go sideways, it goes up. So what good is all the insulation on the side?? It's like telling you to take out all the insulation in your attic and shove it into your walls and you will see the lowest heating bills you've ever had. Don't think so. That is why we add more insulation into our attics, not our walls. Adding additional foam makes sense that it'd cost more.
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...That is why we add more insulation into our attics, not our walls. Adding additional foam makes sense that it'd cost more.
Veeper,
I have insulation in the walls and the attic of my home, don't you? Heat does go up but it also goes sideways. If heat does not escape from the sides as well as from above why do we insulate the walls of our homes? Why would a spa or anything that generates heat be any different? ???
Phil
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It's like telling you to take out all the insulation in your attic and shove it into your walls and you will see the lowest heating bills you've ever had. Don't think so. That is why we add more insulation into our attics, not our walls.
Welcome to the board. :)
I'm afraid that this is a bad analogy as no one is advocating transferring the foam from the attic to the walls, only in having foam in the attic AND the walls.
Terminator
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Thanks Terminator for the welcome....
I have insulation in my walls as well - R-13. Unlike my attic that has R-30. Some heat will tranfer sideways, but the majority will go up, correct?
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You're welcome for the welcome.
As far as heat transfer, I ain't no rocket scientist, but I assume you're correct in that the majority of the heat will, indeed, tansfer upwards. Some of the rocket scientists we do have on this forum will hopefully validate this, but you sure don't want to get me talking out of my backside on this. ;D
Terminator
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Thanks Terminator for the welcome....
I have insulation in my walls as well - R-13. Unlike my attic that has R-30. Some heat will tranfer sideways, but the majority will go up, correct?
Assuming you don't have a window or door open. :)
but yes, Hot air rises.
"Heat" or temperature transfer and the effects of insullation (what we are really talking about) is a bit different.
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I have seldom disagreed with Bill Stevenson - and once again I agree.
As to the question posed by Veeper - no, heat does not go up.
Heat goes any direction from warm to cool (or hot to cold). There are different ways in which heat moves, convection, conduction and radiation.
Hot air does rise above cool air, and hence the common misconception. Hot air rises. This is part of the reason that homes (which do not compare to a tub of water) generally have more insulation in the attic. But there is another very important reason - it costs pennies per square foot to add that extra insulation in the attic. To do the same in the walls would mean going to larger sized lumber in the actual construction of the walls. That costs a bunch.
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I sent Emerald an E-mail asking for more information regarding thier FF upgrade and was surprised to get this response:
AUTHORS NOTE: (March 3 2003)
I was contacted by Emerald and given the impression that posting the contents of the e-mail was not encouraged.
I thank Emerald for replying, and althoughI thought thier email was informative, well written and to the point, I will respect their wishes.
To surmize: they told me they don't offer a FULL FOAM upgrade. Thier upgrade is a thermal reflective blanket added inside the shell.
Emerald employs TP technolgy and wont use FF.
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If I were to hop into this, I'd explain my thoughts as follows:
In Wisconsin it gets cold in winter. Damned cold, sometimes. When I want to go outside, I dress warmly. I wear a shirt, sweatshirt, jacket, boots, longjohns, gloves.....and HAT. All the other insulating layers I wear work well, but the HAT works wonders. So...ANY insulation in the cabinet will help, but it seems that we should be looking into better insulating COVERS instead of worrying so much about TP or FF. The COVER is the ONLY barrier between the hot water and the cold air. If it's substandard, it doesn't matter what we have for filling under the tub, it's still going to have horrible efficiency rates.
So, maybe one of the most obvious things for keeping costs low has been overlooked in the fight of "what's the best insulation?"....
Just MY $.02.....
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Ok....
Take out your lighter and see what happens when you put your fingers on each side of the flame. Then, what happens when you put your hand over the flame. Then tell me heat does not rise.
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I sent Emerald an E-mail asking for more information regarding thier FF upgrade and was surprised to get this response:
Thanks for your email.
Yes, we do offer an insulation upgrade. However, it is NOT full foam. Emerald uses Thermopane technology and will never be full foam.
Our Full Insulation upgrade adds a blanket of Reflectix insulation to our standard UltraFoam insulation. This Reflectix insulation (picture is shown on our website) reflects the ambient heat that is being generated by the equipment back into the cabinet cavity. We make this option available for the colder climates.
Hope this helps.
This is their top of the line insulation, it also added some extra foam on the spa shell and floor. When I was interested in Emerald, this was the insulation I was going to get ... it seemed the best bet for the winter and cooler months, I think at the time it was a $200 upgrade.
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I hope practical application is welcome here. I live in the eastern Washington/northern Idaho area. It get fairly cold in some of the surrounding areas. By actual customer experience. Spas that are not full foam in this arean cost anywhere from 40-150 dollars per month, while fully foamed spas cost 15-20. So, point in fact: Insulating the sides of the spa obviously have an impact, weather partial or full.
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Keep in mind that the body of water, as well as the evaporation that takes place requires the need for a quality cover. There’s more to consider than just heat rising off of the surface of the water here.
Inside the spa, we are also addressing the prevention of ambient air (assuming colder than the cavity) from entering it. Both full foam and a quality thermal pane (or better yet, a double thermal pane with Hydropool) can adequately prevent this. Energy efficiency isn’t just about preventing heat from escaping from the waters surface. It’s also about preventing the heater from coming on as often and it’s why I believe capturing residual heat (from the body of water as well as the pumps themselves) can aide in the ability to offer a more energy efficient product.
One other aspect of heat transfer not mentioned is heat induction. This will allow the heat from the body of water as well as the plumbing lines to radiate heat back into the cavity itself as Chas alluded to.
Steve
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I hope practical application is welcome here. I live in the eastern Washington/northern Idaho area. It get fairly cold in some of the surrounding areas. By actual customer experience. Spas that are not full foam in this arean cost anywhere from 40-150 dollars per month, while fully foamed spas cost 15-20. So, point in fact: Insulating the sides of the spa obviously have an impact, weather partial or full.
I call BS and question the way in which these results were concluded. This is very misleading and terribly inaccurate in my opinion and are in NO WAY "the norm". I would have told you the same thing 2 years ago when I worked for Beachcomber (a full foamed product) as well. It isn’t “biased” but rather knowledge based off of many years experience in this industry…
Steve
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I would agree with Steve. Those $ numbers have to be BS.
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OK, I started reading but then skimmed a few of the posts, hopefully I am still on topic.
L.A. Spas does offer FF as an option and it is a little more. Having sold Hot Spring for over 20 years, I was originally a big advocate for FF. However, after going to the L.A. factory and seeing that our "normal" foam comes out to about 2" from the cabinet, I no longer suggest to my dealers that it is a neccessary thing to pay the upgrade. I feel that what L.A. calls regular is what some consider FF anyway. L.A. does not need foam for structural support so it really isnt an issue either way.
To answer Terms initial question as to why, I think it is simply an option for those dealers that may go head to head with a FF brand and want it to negate a story.
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I hope practical application is welcome here. I live in the eastern Washington/northern Idaho area. It get fairly cold in some of the surrounding areas. By actual customer experience. Spas that are not full foam in this arean cost anywhere from 40-150 dollars per month, while fully foamed spas cost 15-20. So, point in fact: Insulating the sides of the spa obviously have an impact, weather partial or full.
Sorry, ehizzle, but you've got to provide better data than that to support your conclusion. I don't think there is anything obvious about your conclusion as you stated.
As for my own opinion, I believe, as stated in an earlier thread this week, that ff is more suitable for colder climates and tp is more suitable for temperate climates. I think ff would do a better job retaining heat in a more severe temperature delta environment where tp would insulate just as effectively in an environment where temperature delta concerns are not a worry. Also, I think tp does a better job keeping pumps cooled in hotter climates.
In reality, I think it boils down to which manufacturer does a proper job of whichever insulation technique is chosen. In MasterSpas case, it looks as if they are trying to be all things to all people regarding their willingness to ff their spas--not necessarily a good idea. I'd really like to see an ff MasterSpas tub......knowing that they position their motors on 3 sides of the spa, I'd be interested to see how they compartmentalize them. I just can't imagine that it would be best ff implementation.....that's why I went with their standard technique when I ordered mine.
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Years ago when I sold MasterSpas they offered FF and charged more for it rather than their reg program. We always ordered the FF because we also carried HotSpring and wanted our stories to be similar. However we never understood why it was more $$ for the FF because when you ordered their reg foam they had a worker stand there and painstakingly cut all the styrofoam sections with a heat knife to slide into the frame. To us it always seemed like that would be just as expensive than to just have the foam guy keep going for another minute.
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Hi Gang,
Here is a photo using infrared technology, to show heat loss in a home. And yes heat will escape all over the first floor of a house, anywhere that cold air is penetrating. So any piece of styrofoam, that is not tight on a TP Spa, then major heat loss will take place. As service company of every brand, we deal with frozen spas all winter. If a customer e-mails me on a Saturday night and says his spa is dead, will it freeze tonight? I ask what brand of spa they have, if it is a full foam spa, I tell them it can wait til Monday Morning. If it is a TP spa, I am giving them emergency instructions on what to do tonight, to prevent their spa from freezing. remember the big sales pitch with Thermo Pane, is the spa shell and equipment is kept warm, from heat coming off the motors, while the spa is running or cycling. The success of that concept is based on a tub that is running. Most freeze ups occur on spas that are dead or tripping the breaker, due to a short. So, how well will that piece of 3/4" styro foam keep the cold from getting to the pipes vs. a spa that is fully foam filled?
(http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/6779/image0261xq.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
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Ok....
Take out your lighter and see what happens when you put your fingers on each side of the flame. Then, what happens when you put your hand over the flame. Then tell me heat does not rise.
Veep, you're new - but believe me this one has been beat to death. Your analogy is flawed. No, I will not put my finger in a flame to prove that heat goes any way it wants to, because there is no connection between the hot air rising off of an open flame and heat conductiing toward a cool surface or radiating toward a cool area or object. If you want to really make an anaolgy, why not simply use a spa? That is what we're talking about here.
Heat a spa, and put three inches of foam all around it (top included). It will stay warm for a long time. As is is sitting there, you can measure the heat loss and it will be equal all around - unless the tub is sitting on an ice cold slab, then the heat loss will be greatest in that direction. OR, if the plumbing allows the water to move from the insulated part to a colder uninsulated part, then the heat loss will be greatest there. If there is a cold wind hitting one side of our imaginary spa, the heat loss will be greatest on that side. If you take off the cover, the heat loss will be greatest there, but not because 'heat goes up,' It will be a big heat loss because you will have evaporation adding to the heat loss, and you may even have some raditation adding to the heat loss, and of course the air bubbles and turbulance of any jets will help to break down surface tension and expose more of the water to the cold air. All of these things tend to make the top of a spa loose a lot of heat - but if you stop all of them by putting a cover on, the heat loss will stop. And once again, it will be the greatest on the bottom, or the plumbing etc.
All this talk of hats and attics is fun, but has no bearing on a body of heated water.
In my twenty years in the spa biz I have seen a simple truth: a poorly insulated spa costs a lot to run while a well insulated spa does not. The exact method of insulation doesn't make a dime's difference
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Neat picture. I have an infared on a particular brand of spa that was 2 years old that I won't share the name with anyone here but it rhymes with Farctic. It clearly shows where the weak points are on the exterior of the cabinet.
All you Arctic folks will be glad to know that in all my dealer training seminars, I've never used it. :P ;D
Steve
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HeySteve,
Of course not.I am sure you have never shared the infrared shots with your dealers. I'm sure it would make for an interesting study, to photograph various manufacturers side by side, in the same envirement.
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Sorry, ehizzle, but you've got to provide better data than that to support your conclusion. I don't think there is anything obvious about your conclusion as you stated.
I was referring to the statement that heat loss is only from the top. My conclusion is supported by the data. All spas have covers. Insulated spas have insulation on the sides while non insulated spas do not. Those spas cost more to run, so obviously heat is also lost through the side. Seemed simple enough to me.
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Marquis used to offer full foam as an upgrade but after looking at spas being returned due to leaks, it was all spas that didn't have full foam. Now full foam is standard across all of the lines.
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HeySteve,
Of course not.I am sure you have never shared the infrared shots with your dealers. I'm sure it would make for an interesting study, to photograph various manufacturers side by side, in the same envirement.
I totally agree!! It would more interesting than some independant study IMO and give a better understanding of heat loss in a given design.
Steve
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I was referring to the statement that heat loss is only from the top. My conclusion is supported by the data. All spas have covers. Insulated spas have insulation on the sides while non insulated spas do not. Those spas cost more to run, so obviously heat is also lost through the side. Seemed simple enough to me.
Can we see this data? Your conclusion is skewed sorry to say. These "blanket statements" don't lend itself to any form of credibility and you will have a difficult time here as the people that frequent this forum (both dealers and consumers) have a very high level of understanding and have seen this unsupported rhetoric before. Unfortunately, the interent is filled with misinformation.
Steve
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Which part of my data was skewed? I'm not trying to be specific here and I'm not sure where you got that conclusion. Or why you are being so defensive about the subject. I'm not trying to sell FF over TP. All I'm saying is that there is heat lost from the sides as well as the top. Do you dissagree?
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All this talk of hats and attics is fun, but has no bearing on a body of heated water.
What if it's one of those thick ones with the ball on top and flaps that come down over your ears? ;D
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I can't beleive this even gets any acknowledgment ............ Can you say........... Stalemate,...even-steven, Mexican standoff,dead heat ,push, tie, dead end, equivalence, even game, level, Beating a DEAD Horse............
DONE!! and DONE!!!!!
............ Next? ..............?
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Which part of my data was skewed?
I'll tell ya after I see it. That hasn't happened yet.
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Can you say........... Stalemate,...even-steven, Mexican standoff,dead heat ,push, tie, dead end, equivalence, even game, level, Beating a DEAD Horse............
DONE!! and DONE!!!!!
............ Next? ..............?
Uhhhhh.... "Stalemate,...even-steven, Mexican standoff, dead heat, push. tie, dead end, equivalence, even game, level, Beating a DEAD Horse.....DONE!! and DONE!!! Next...."
Can you say Smart A$$".? ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Hey,
Who started this TP/Full Foam Thread anyway? Terminator where are you? You left just after it got going huh? Oh I forgot he is sitting back in his energy efficient full foam hot tub. Oops! Sorry. ::)
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Nah... I'm sure he has one of those "High Performance" full foam hot tubs. ;) ;) ;)
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What if it's one of those thick ones with the ball on top and flaps that come down over your ears? ;D
Well, I have seen a University Study on thick ones with the ball on top, but not thick ones with a ball on top and flaps. But the thick ones with the ball on top did quite well in the study.
The worst ones? The ones with the propellor on top. They tend to be worn by folks with an air-gap between their ears.
;)
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Insulation works by trapping air to keep it from moving, either by natural convection or drafts.
So, if you do not have full foam insulation why not get some fiberglass batts and fill up the open space?
It seems to me that this would be much cheaper than paying for the upgrade and may work even better than full foam since the internal parts would be more accessible.
Just a thought. 8)
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I have helped some customers pack insulation into the cavities of their spa. It did help - and we tested by watching the temperature drop overnight with the heat off. Made a big difference.
It is not quite the same as a good foam job - easy now - as it will tend to settle over time, and depending on the weather and how well sealed the cabinet is, it may begin to wick (get wet all by itself as it pulls water out of the air via condensation).
And it tends to invite critters. But other than that...
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Let us just hope and pray that anyone that does use fiberglass as an added insulator does not have an air blower. The blower would be sucking up airborne fiberglass and injecting it into the tub through the air injectors.
Can you imagine what it would be like if you were lounging in 103° water with all of your skin pores open with fiberglass in the water. Not too smart, but then, it is cheaper than 2 chemical tanks of A B foam to do the job right.
I gotta go, I'm starting to itch all over.
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Actually Owens Pink Insulation on the floor of the Hot Tub, is exactly the way Hydro Spas insulated the floor of their tubs,up to about 2 years ago. And most of their spas were equipped with air blowers. Does it make it right. No. Whenever, the pump shaft seals or heater leaked, the Pink Owens Corning became wet and nasty, as it would never quite dry up or regain its pink fluffy look. I will never forget, being in a New Jersey Showroom and telling my friend the Hydro Dealer, that I could see the Pink Panther Cartoon Figure, right through the spa shell. He moved that spa to a darker side of the showroom, to avoid sunlight from bringing out the Panther Dude.
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I started reading this thread, but fell asleep on page 31.
;D
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Hi Gang,
Here is a photo using infrared technology, to show heat loss in a home. And yes heat will escape all over the first floor of a house, anywhere that cold air is penetrating. So any piece of styrofoam, that is not tight on a TP Spa, then major heat loss will take place. As service company of every brand, we deal with frozen spas all winter. If a customer e-mails me on a Saturday night and says his spa is dead, will it freeze tonight? I ask what brand of spa they have, if it is a full foam spa, I tell them it can wait til Monday Morning. If it is a TP spa, I am giving them emergency instructions on what to do tonight, to prevent their spa from freezing. remember the big sales pitch with Thermo Pane, is the spa shell and equipment is kept warm, from heat coming off the motors, while the spa is running or cycling. The success of that concept is based on a tub that is running. Most freeze ups occur on spas that are dead or tripping the breaker, due to a short. So, how well will that piece of 3/4" styro foam keep the cold from getting to the pipes vs. a spa that is fully foam filled?
NJ, this agrees with the part of my assertion that full foam spas may be better suited to colder climates. It would be interesting to hear yours and other's opinions on the other side of my assertion.....that tp may be better suited in warmer climates because pump motors may run cooler.
And ehizzle wrote:
Insulated spas have insulation on the sides while non insulated spas do not.
So, ehizzle, have you decided to change the topic completely by comparing insulated spas and uninsulated spas? Or are you referring to ff as insulated and tp as uninsulated? You need to get a grip, dude.
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Can you imagine what it would be like if you were lounging in 103° water with all of your skin pores open with fiberglass in the water. I gotta go, I'm starting to itch all over.
Well, I suppose you are right about that. I have never been sensitive to fiberglass insulation and usually put it in wearing short sleeves and no gloves. But sitting in a hot tub as you describe might be a whole different story.
If you are still looking for a cheaper insulation, how about buying a 4x8 sheet of 2 inch foam board at Lowes or HD for about $28? You can easily cut it to size with a utility knife. It would be removable and is relatively water proof.
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If you are still looking for a cheaper insulation, how about buying a 4x8 sheet of 2 inch foam board at Lowes or HD for about $28? You can easily cut it to size with a utility knife. It would be removable and is relatively water proof.
What you have just described IS thermal pane insulation. Add a layer of tinfoil to it and it becomes reflectix or dait or whatever "upgrade" you want it to be. :)
Terminator
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If I decide to start manufacturing Snowbird Hot tubs (with vibrating textured jets by the way), I am going to use the best materials and designs I can while still meeting a competitive price level.
So if my research tells me that full foam, thermal pane or multiple layers of used chewing gum is the best insulation, why would I offer an option that provides a lower level of insulation?
My customers would eventually find out that they opted for a lesser insulation and bad mouth my tub because of high electric bills.... especially if they had to pay extra for what I believed was a downgrade.
Sounds funny to me... but then again I ain't smart 'nuff to be a busy-ness man. However, I can turn some sweet toys on a lathe!
8) ;)
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why would I offer an option that provides a lower level of insulation?
My customers would eventually find out that they opted for a lesser insulation and bad mouth my tub because of high electric bills.... especially if they had to pay extra for what I believed was a downgrade.
That, my friend, was the WHOLE point of this thread. :)
Terminator
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That, my friend, was the WHOLE point of this thread. :) Terminator
Gee thanks. It only took me 52 messages to figure it out. Next time don't be so obuse.
;D
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Gee thanks. It only took me 52 messages to figure it out. Next time don't be so obuse.
;D
No, no, no...I'm giving you CREDIT for summarizing it in a nutshell. You done good!
Terminator
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Insulation works by trapping air to keep it from moving, either by natural convection or drafts.
Some insulation works that way. But not all (A vacuum does not.) Some materials conduct heat better than others and it's not a function of trapping air, but rather blocking or slowing heat transfer from one material to another. Keep in mind, heat can transfer by conduction, radiating, or convection (or all three).
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Thank you Mr. Science. :D
I guess a vacuum would work, considering how effective a thermos bottle is. The people in Rio Linda still don't know how it knows to keep hot stuff hot and cold stuff cold, but that's their problem.
So, I guess if you are really cheap you could create your own vacuum under your tub by attaching a hose to the side and inviting Linda Lovelace over for a soak.
I'm just trying to help.
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d3/VeroSnowbird/headupass.jpg)
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Thank you Mr. Science. :D
I guess a vacuum would work, considering how effective a thermos bottle is. The people in Rio Linda still don't know how it knows to keep hot stuff hot and cold stuff cold, but that's their problem.
So, I guess if you are really cheap you could create your own vacuum under your tub by attaching a hose to the side and inviting Linda Lovelace over for a soak.
I'm just trying to help.
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d3/VeroSnowbird/headupass.jpg)
;D
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Am I the only one thinking that Linda may be a little "over the hill" by now? The last thing you need is some wrinkled old lady crawling around with knee pads on looking for her dentures when your wife comes home.
??? ;D ;D
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So if heat loss occurs on all sides of a tub how much does it help to either sink your tub into a deck or build some type of outer covering around the hottub?
Has anyone built a enclosure for the sides of their tub? If you did did you insulate the walls of the enclosure?
How much would this help in lowering heat loss and your electric bill?
Cburk
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So if heat loss occurs on all sides of a tub how much does it help to either sink your tub into a deck or build some type of outer covering around the hottub?
Has anyone built a enclosure for the sides of their tub? If you did did you insulate the walls of the enclosure?
How much would this help in lowering heat loss and your electric bill?
Cburk
That all depends. It will help some, maybe to a great extent if you purchase a poorly insulated spa. If you are still planning to buy a HS, the difference will be negligible as whichever model you end up with is going to cost you less than $25/month, period.
Don't build any enclosure in the interest of saving money on electric, rather, build one for asthetics or protection from long-term exposure to the elements.
Hope this helps. :)
Terminator
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Hey,
Who started this TP/Full Foam Thread anyway?
Yeah, whoever did is a big time goomer!
Terminator
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That all depends. It will help some, maybe to a great extent if you purchase a poorly insulated spa. If you are still planning to buy a HS, the difference will be negligible as whichever model you end up with is going to cost you less than $25/month, period.
Don't build any enclosure in the interest of saving money on electric, rather, build one for asthetics or protection from long-term exposure to the elements.
Hope this helps. :)
Terminator
Well if I were to build an enclosure around my tub, would it best to build it using high R factor insulation, or I am thinking of ciruclating the warm air, given off by the tubs steam to heat in between the walls of my enclosure? It's just so confusing.
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Keeping wind off any tub will help. This is not due to the pure scientific theory this time, but the more practical:
Wind does accelerate the cooling effect - and there are valid scientific reasons for this - but it can also raise the cover a bit. This is a very quick way to cool a spa: blow cold air across the surface. But wind can also slice its way into any crack or crevices in the siding (much more important on a TP) and this will include moving air through any venting system that might be present for the motor compartment.
Now, as Mr. Terminator Sir has well said, the amount of help this offers is directly proportional to the baseline ability of the tub to retain heat. In other words, the better the tub the less important it is where you put it in relation to the elements.
By the way - all tubs are female. What other explanation could there be for the fact that they cost a lot, require regular attention, get men hot and retain water?
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Sorry guys... I think my attempt at humor may have ruined the thread for you.
I'll just shut up for a while. :-X
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Sorry guys... I think my attempt at humor may have ruined the thread for you.
I'll just shut up for a while. :-X
Huh?
WEe got moved here becasue it's been discussed to the point of ad-nasuim.
I know that term and I really apprecaite a smart ass. :^)
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Wow, just when it was getting good, too.
:'(
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<Edited because I sounded kind of sassy in a drewstar-way and I don't want to be an instigator in the drewstar-fashion>
Terminator
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This will give a tp spa an advantage over a ff spa strictly from a pricing standpoint. Period.
Does anyone disagree? I'm all ears....
Terminator
Well, one argument that is made regularly is that it is easier to service. The other side of that coin is that unsupported plumbing will need to be accessible as it is more likely to leak.
Regardless, many that are afraid of costly repairs outside of warranty lean toward TP. They believe that:
a) they will be able to do the repair easily themselves
or
b) the service person will not bill them for as many hours as they will not be digging through foam.
Others believe that TP is actually more efficient of hydro-electricity.
I do not believe TP is better because of what I wrote above, just playing devils advocate.
I will say, and many here have doubted me or called me an outright liar, but I will say it anyway.
Some TP tubs operate at a lower volume level than some FF spas. This is not based on science or with a decibel metre. This is based on my experience shopping and selling several brands. Coleman was hands down the most quiet spa I have sold, seen or heard. This includes Arctic, Beachcomber, D-1, Catalina, Hydropool, Coast and I am sure many others, but I would have seen/heard those tubs only once or twice.
Edit: I did change the line that begins: "I do not believe TP is better...." as I thought my original wording was unclear.
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Well, one argument that is made regularly is that it is easier to service. The other side of that coin is that un-supported plumbing will need to be accessible as it is more likely to leak.
Regardless, many that are afraid of costly repairs outside of warranty lean toward TP. They believe that:
a) they will be able to do the repair easily themselves
or
b) the service person will not bill them for as many hours as they will not be digging through foam.
Others believe that TP is actually more efficient of hydro-electricity.
I do not support these statements, just playing devils advocate.
I will say, and many here have doubted me or called me an outright liar, but I will say it anyway.
Some TP tubs operate at a lower volume level than some FF spas. This is not based on science or with a decible metre. This is based on my experience shopping and selling sevral brands. Coleman was hands down the most quiet spa I have sold, seen or heard. This includes Arctic, Beachcomber, D-1, Catalina, Hydropool, Coast and I am sure many others, but I would have seen/heard those tubs only once or twice.
I agree that fixing a leak in a ff tub could be a nightmare. I just made sure I bought a good quality tub. I would not want some fly by night company filling a tub with foam.
I like the idea of not realying on over agressive filtering to assist in my insualtion. Foam works 24/7 without electricty. It makes the most sense to me for the best insulation. I had a tub with poor insualtion and it was a nightmare.
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Well I tried to stay out of this, but like a moth to a flame I'm drawn in.
For those of you that don't know me I sell Coleman and Jacuzzi spas in what may be one of the harshest climates in the US...North Dakota
That being said, I can truely tell you with first hand experience that there is no big cost difference between running a Jacuzzi (full foam) and a Coleman (thermal pane) in the coldest winter months.
I can however tell you that a Coleman will heat up on a fresh fill faster than than a Jacuzzi when it's 20 below. This has more to do with the fact that Coleman uses the jet pump to heat and Jacuzzi uses a circ. pump. Both spas are excellent choices.
In the end what should be most important to anyone is the fit and feel of the spa and the dealer relationship and service history.
I've often said that no matter how comfortable you are with the technology that a certain spa manufacturer uses, if that spa doesn't fit you or you have to be an acrobat to stay seated in it, what good is it....
Spahappy :D
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"...all tubs are female. What other explanation could there be for the fact that they cost a lot, require regular attention, get men hot and retain water?"
Thanks Chas. I love it.
Bill
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:o :o :o
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:o :o :o
I deleted my comment.
mostly because I couldn't decide ifI should use the word "Cheap" or "Good" ::) Hmmm. Maybe it's both. ?
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I dleted my comment.
mostly because I couldn't decide between ifI should use the word "Cheap" or "Good" ::)
You should've just used this picture.
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/giant.jpg)
I have no idea what keywords were used to find this pic.
Terminator
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I have no idea what keywords were used to find this pic.
Terminator
Either "Save Me A Drumstick" or "Worlds shortest living man".
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"Hey guys... what's that sign mean on the door?"
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I have no idea what keywords were used to find this pic.
Terminator
tall redheaded texas chick in bondage.....
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Wow I havent been on the board in a couple of days. Steve and windsurf dog: I can't believe how rude and sarcastic you are being.
I'll tell ya after I see it. That hasn't happened yet.
So, ehizzle, have you decided to change the topic completely by comparing insulated spas and uninsulated spas? Or are you referring to ff as insulated and tp as uninsulated? You need to get a grip, dude.
I don't see why anything I said should have offended you or riled you up so much.
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Why then, on some manufacturer's that offer both, is the full foam package considered to be an upgrade and more money is charged for this service? What am I missing? I'm still trying to learn more about this business.
Terminator
I believe Vita Spas also has the option to go full foam or thermopane. If my memory serves me correct, the thermopane was standard and the full foam was the upgrade. It could be vice/versa but either way I know they offer both.
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Neat picture. I have an infared on a particular brand of spa ... rhymes with Farctic...
Steve
Arctic, Farctic. :D
Insulation done right, and don't call us thermopane!!
I can't believe that this beastie has been around all this time and I haven't taken a whack at it. But it's not often I have a chance to skim through six pages of posts. Made for a fun read. <sigh> There goes another coffee break...
Happy New Year, all.
Tom
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Not sure anyone will respond to this thread now but I was searching for insulation and found this.
My question is: Should you use additional insulation on the bottom of a tub. Mine is sitting on a deck about 5 feet in the air and it is pretty windy here. On a cold day if I feel the decking below the tub it is warmer than the rest.
I am thinking of getting that solid pink foam and putting it under the deck bettween the stringers where the tub sits. Obivously using a little grade to allow for any drainage etc.
Sound reasonable? Wouldn't cost much.....
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Clever idea.......couldn't hurt to try. 8-)
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I agree ...heat rises but you do lose heat from the sides as well..great analagy with the house :)
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Heat doesn't rise. Heat travels from warmer to cooler. In any direction.
Warm air does rise in relation to cooler air.
Heat will transfer to whatever surface it is in contact with that is cooler.
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Not sure anyone will respond to this thread now but I was searching for insulation and found this.
My question is: Should you use additional insulation on the bottom of a tub. Mine is sitting on a deck about 5 feet in the air and it is pretty windy here. On a cold day if I feel the decking below the tub it is warmer than the rest.
I am thinking of getting that solid pink foam and putting it under the deck bettween the stringers where the tub sits. Obivously using a little grade to allow for any drainage etc.
Sound reasonable? Wouldn't cost much.....
Anyone in a snow region nows that briges and overpass freeze first, because the cold air can circulate around it.
So having insualtion on the bottom of the tub if it's on a deck sounds like it could make a difference, but I wonder, since the tub sits on the deck (and the tub is transfering heat to the deck, and it's the deck that's heating the air underneath the deck, adding a few strips of foam might help a bit, but how much? The foam wont stop the tub from transfering heat to the deck... but will slow the deck radiating heat to air. (or at least the part that is foamed) ?
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Anything that blocks or slows heat transfer will allow the spa water to stay that much warmer that much longer, so anything like that should help at least somewhat.
By how much, is hard to know. I'd think a spa on a deck, with plenty of cold air underneath to aid convection would loose more heat than sitting on a slab. In turn I'd suspect that one of those foam spa pads might be better than concrete in this regard.
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insulating the sides of the deck so that wind cannot get under it, might also help.
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I did it, I made it through all 6 pages...do I get a piece of cheese (other than the great information)? :)
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Anyone in a snow region nows that briges and overpass freeze first, because the cold air can circulate around it.
So having insualtion on the bottom of the tub if it's on a deck sounds like it could make a difference, but I wonder, since the tub sits on the deck (and the tub is transfering heat to the deck, and it's the deck that's heating the air underneath the deck, adding a few strips of foam might help a bit, but how much? The foam wont stop the tub from transfering heat to the deck... but will slow the deck radiating heat to air. (or at least the part that is foamed) ?
Some years ago I took a winter camping course. The instructor, Mountain Rescue expert Kurt Seele of Waterton Park, advised that if you are camping on ice, snow, or frozen ground, you need three layers under you for each layer over you, because the cold earth is a giant heat sink.
This is why Arctic, designing their product for cold climates, puts a solid fiberglass floor and 3" of insulation under their tubs.
IMO you are on the right track, Drewstar. Even insulation attached to the underside of the deck below the tub would be a help.
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I did it, I made it through all 6 pages...do I get a piece of cheese (other than the great information)? :)
No, but if you think you're tough, and if you're really incredibly bored, some topics go on to over 60 pages! Look in Beating a Dead Horse...