Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: Gary on May 14, 2007, 01:13:27 pm
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I have been in this business almost 20-years and it seems to me that is has taken course as many other products.
Spas now are being built for eye appeal rather than actual useful stuff and when you add all the flash some thing else has to go to keep the spa within a certain cost.
All the spas with stereos, T.V., silly water falls, crazy lighting...have added a lot of cost to the spa without adding any hydrotherapy benefit. Okay the stereo I can kind of see but most of the other stuff is all fluff.
Quality cost money so the companies that make a quality tub and then when all the flash is added the pricing get fairly.
And from my experience most of the flash items do not even get used 6-months after the spa is bought, anything below the waterline you cannot see anyways and guess what your spa is closed 90% of the time.
What is happening is spas are getting built for the eye and not for the purpose that they were intended for in first place.
Some companies can do both but it is very easy for anybody to make a very attractive looking spa, but as soon as you raise the hood it would scare you.
I do not even know if I had a point, I am just is tired of seeing all these nice looking spas on the outside and junk underneath. It is too bad for the consumer.
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Just my opinion but some of the things you refer to as "fluff" can add to the relaxation atmosphere that most people are looking for when they get in their spa.
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Gary, what spas did you have in mind when you say
"I am just is tired of seeing all these nice looking spas on the outside and junk underneath."...
I agree that a lot of the "fluff" is nothing more than overpriced eye candy.
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Gary, what spas did you have in mind when you say
"I am just is tired of seeing all these nice looking spas on the outside and junk underneath."...
I agree that a lot of the "fluff" is nothing more than overpriced eye candy.
Do really want me to mention names, some might get offended.
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I would. but I like causing trouble. ..
I think if you do so proffesionaly and polietely maybe we can learn something?
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I would. but I like causing trouble. ..
I think if you do so proffesionaly and polietely maybe we can learn something?
There is no way to do it politely, there just some spas built for sex appeal but as soon as you take their clothes off their boobs are hanging past their knees.
MS
CS
CP
SS
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What do you think is the saggiest out of:
Framing, components, construction, or insualtion.
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Sorry Gary,
I have to agree with the end of your first post… I don’t really know what point you're trying to make.
I haven’t been in the business for 20 years but I did do a lot of shopping before making my purchase. I found that all manufactures add bells and whistles to some extent. I think every brand I looked at had at least one model in their lines that had some kind of water fall, and all had spas that come with integrated led lighting (and this from Costco spas, Dynasty spas, HotSpring, Maax, Sundance and Jacuzzi).
I think most manufactures try to cater to as large a market as they can. I’ll agree that some do it with more streamlined designs, but most if not all supply products for the bells and whistles buyer.
I didn’t opt for a model with "add-ons", but I figure if they’re makin’em someone must be buyin’em.
Maybe Hydrotherapy isn’t the #1 factor with everyone. I guess some people want to soak and watch the tube… To each his own.
BTW if you’re going to name names go all the way.
Just my 2 cents.
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Gary - I figured out ms and ss, and wasn't considering any that start with C, but you think hs, and j are ok?
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I think what Gary maybe suggesting is that many makers today have gone away from quality and put more money into the eye appeal of spas. There is nothing wrong with nice packaging it is just when you would rather as maker cut the corners on the things under the shell that can not be seen and put the cost to build dollars on more eye bling, than who in long run are you serving. I mean many makers as a example used to use braided lines in there plumbing I now know of only a couple that still do it, why because it cost more and most customers place NO value on it when compared to a fancier water fall lets say. I mean when you break a spa down its about, energy efficiently, comfort, therapy, water care, those type type of things in long run will provide much more enjoyment than will a fancy light, that after a while will most likely not get turned on.
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I think what Gary maybe suggesting is that many makers today have gone away from quality and put more money into the eye appeal of spas.
I'm totally with Gary on this one. Sooooo many times I see people come to these sites and say "but I saw another brand and they had all the same features and they say they use the same induusrty parts and their quality looks fine to me so I don't see a difference".
I don't mean to belittle any customers out there (there truly are savvy spa buyers who take the time to research spas) but there are so many cookie cutter, so-so brand spas out there that are able to dress up the spa with the bells and whistles so that the average person can't tell the difference between a quality spa and a so-so spa that'll be in the landfill within 8 yrs.
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A diluted market is just a consequence of being in, consuming in, and operating in a free trade, open, capitalist system.
In the end it’s the consumer’s job to do the research and to buy from a vendor that they feel is trustworthy. If a consumer is seduced by a sexy tub with tons of bells and whistles, and misses the big picture, they have no one to blame but themselves.
The same can be said for the communications industry, the automotive industry and or any consumer goods industry.
:) I drive an N and here is the list of cars that I consider badly manufactured:
G, A, W and H… ::)
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I'm totally with Gary on this one. Sooooo many times I see people come to these sites and say "but I saw another brand and they had all the same features and they say they use the same induusrty parts and their quality looks fine to me so I don't see a difference".
I don't mean to belittle any customers out there (there truly are savvy spa buyers who take the time to research spas) but there are so many cookie cutter, so-so brand spas out there that are able to dress up the spa with the bells and whistles so that the average person can't tell the difference between a quality spa and a so-so spa that'll be in the landfill within 8 yrs.
I have been getting more and more people in lately that are comparing the Costco spa to the Jacuzzi's we sell, and same goes for my friend over at the Sundance dealership and I am assuming HS is getting the same.
Some people really get it and understand the difference between the 2 spas some just see the lights,stereo and waterfall oh and the price. They read about it and check the warranty's but they dont get the fact that when it breaks down there is no one around here anyway that will work on it under warranty, nor do they understand how they are built and what actually makes them tick.
Jacuzzi is coming out with 2 new spa's not sure if Sundance is or not ,and not sure when they will be available Im thinking pretty soon by the sounds of it.
I am not going to spill the beans just yet :-X but they will have different options available, and stripped down should be around 5995 or less depending on the options the customer wants. I think a lot of it has to do with attracting the buyer that wants a quality spa at lower price with the dealer to back it and the service and support that a big box store cant give to a spa owner.
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Hmm. Some good points in this thread. Ultimately, I agree that a quality spa is much more important than a glamorous one, but if you can get both... ?
I'm just a consumer, but one thing I've noticed is that many, many buyers (including myself when I started) are looking for a spa around the $4000 mark. I know everyone in this forum has seen lots of newbies posting about spas that cost in that price range or stating up front that that is the most they can spend. My question is, why don't more dealers try to cater to that instead of fighting it? If the cost of entry even on basic models is too high (which I'd guess it is for most of the nicer brands), having at least 2 spas in the mid-5 range or selling/advertising used spas on the showroom floor is like a breath of fresh air for less affluent consumers. It's an option for people that cannot double their price range and will simply walk out of your store if that's all you have.
I think Jim makes a solid point about inexpensive quality spas, and I'll follow it up with my own thoughts: Most consumers don't *want* that Costco tub. They already see the value of a quality spa with good service, but if all of the spa stores are hitting them over the head with 7, 8, and 9-thousand dollar spas and the "quality costs" mantra, it's pretty easy to get discouraged and feel like you are a poor bastard that will never be able to enjoy a hot tub unless you buy it from a discount store. When I was looking, my Jacuzzi store was the only one with 2 nice tubs (that had prices *posted on them*) under 6 grand.
I don't know if it's an option for every dealer, but I really, really like hottub.pool_boy and East_Tx_Spa's approach of being up front with their used stock. When I was looking, I would have jumped on this in an heartbeat. I'll shill a little for poolboy, every tub on his used page is $4k or lower, and a bunch have quite a bit of life left in them ('98 Prodigy and Grandee). http://www.scarritt.com/preowned.htm
And I'll bet dealers could make a *killing* on selling extended warranties on these, just like used cars.
Thoughts/counterpoints?
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I completely agree with you, Matt! I hoped to spend 4k when I started researching, and it seemed to me that that was where a spa price "should be." I dont know why, but I am certainly not the only one who ballparked that figure. When I learned more I realized I needed to be really patient on the used market, or spend more, As it is, I spent more.
As for bells and whistles and hype-ish things that Gary addressed: I think it is a salespeople who are at fault for making those so "appealing." I did not even know that tubs came with waterfalls and lights and all, and I thought my friends' spa with a TV was the silliest waste of money ever........but what did 80% of the dealers I went to try to show me? Yep, the waterfalls and lights. By the 7th or 8th wet test, I almost WANTED that stuff, even though it was not even on my list when I walked through the door.
The tub that I bought was a floor model, with yes, a waterfall (which I only keep on drizzle to keep water flowing in it). I wanted the fancy light package, but could not justify the cost for something so unneeded. So I told myself that if I still missed it a year later, it would be my tub's anniversary gift to myself to add "Northern Lights." After about a week of tub ownership I was soooooooo glad that I had not bothered with fancy lights, and I still am.
I do have these $10 floating flower lights to entertain me, though.......:)
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Do really want me to mention names, some might get offended.
I understand Gary's point. I bought my tub soley on its hydrotherapy benefits, the lights and waterfall came with the model. As for naming names, I will have to see if I still have the Coast spa picture with the waterfall at the front of the tub. It was the dumbest looking thing I've seen on any kind of product ever.
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There is no way to do it politely, there just some spas built for sex appeal but as soon as you take their clothes off their boobs are hanging past their knees.
MS
CS
CP
SS
Yet another stab from a dealer on this board. When will you learn to concentrate on your own products and leave the rest behind? Pipe dream on my part...
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re: Yet another stab from a dealer on this board. When will you learn to
concentrate on your own products and leave the rest behind? Pipe dream
on my part...
LOL @ windsurfdog
Don't hold your breath buddy!
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My "2Cents"....
People/consumers are motivated by all kinds of different reasons.
It's funny....some people just wanna "stay put".
They have the "keep it simple" or the "I don't want nothin
fancy that can go wrong" attitude. Good for them!
But as discussed before...some people thought electric power car
windows were "fluff" and just something else that could go wrong.
Now power windows and power locks are pretty standard on most
new cars. And OMG yes they may go out or beark every once in a
blue moon unlike the old manual crank windows but in my mind if
they go out every few years it's still well worth it.
There are alot of people that are interested and enjoy
bells & whistles.....for example they don't just buy a car to
"get somewhere". They like a fancy stereo, IPOD, heated seats,
moonroof/ect...A Toyota will get you there, but some like the Lexus
because it offers more options.
I entertain alot.....my hot tub is one "piece of the puzzle" I offer
my guests....and when they walk out into the yard and see
the hot tub water-fall and the LED lights....there is a certain
"wow factor" that makes the experience more enjoyable. I love
my waterfall....for me it adds to the moment and creates a more
relaxing experience. I have a fountain in my yard and I have
a wall fountain in my house....I love the sound of water!
But then you have people on this board that seem to think
everyone's life is exactly like theirs and for the life of them
they just can't understand why anyone would want the "bells
and whistles".....ya know..."it's just something else that can
go wrong"...."a waste of money"....blah blah blah.
And there are some that are in the spa business that hate the
"bells & whistles" because those are items that are more likely
to maybe break down and they view them as a nuisance. Of
course the window repair guy at car dealers probably didn't
like it when we switched to power windows...."heck boss now
I gotta repair electric windows that go bad under warranty".
Ya know the old "gosh if the customer would just leave me
alone I could get my job done"!....LOL
Now they are going to run for cover by saying...."oh there's nothing
wrong with bells & whistles" it's just that "Joe Public" is too impressed
by the fluff and not as interested in the fact that my brand of tub may
not need a repair for 9 years and his "fluff tub" may need a repair after
6 years. Alot of people say "WHO CARES?"!
Some people are not obsessed with "never needing to call a repair man".
It's a trade-off. Some people's sole motivation is not just "will it last longer?".
Some people will buy a product they like knowing it may mean more
maintainence, but there is something about the brand they particularly
like. It's not dumb.....it's not weird.....it's called I have different motivations
and needs than you do.
Sometimes beautiful women are "more trouble" but that doesn't mean I am
going to run try to find me an ugly one that is maybe easier to deal with and
another guy will never flirt with.
I own a Lexus...I know Toyota makes one of the most dependable vehicles
in the world, but I might next time choose an Cadillac Escalade because
I think it's better looking, has a certain ride, and offers some different options
even though I know in my heart the Escalade would probably not be as dependable
as the Lexus SUV.
I suppose in the end it always boils down to the "2EachHisOwn".
but there are always those that feel the need to imply
"2EachHisOwn-But your choice is stupid".
::)
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Hmm. Some good points in this thread. Ultimately, I agree that a quality spa is much more important than a glamorous one, but if you can get both... ?
I'm just a consumer, but one thing I've noticed is that many, many buyers (including myself when I started) are looking for a spa around the $4000 mark. I know everyone in this forum has seen lots of newbies posting about spas that cost in that price range or stating up front that that is the most they can spend. My question is, why don't more dealers try to cater to that instead of fighting it?
Thoughts/counterpoints?
First off, I agree 110% with Gary's observations. When we put 10 different spas side by side, there hasn't been much to differentiate them and consumers end up going with the least expensive, comparable spa because of it. The result is building a product that has visual differences that appeal to the consumer at the time of first viewing. These differences are often "fluff" that has no real value in a long term aspect for "most" consumers. The difficulty in this industry is that 99% of the "quality" (or cost that makes up a spa), can't been seen just by standing over it.
The problem with quality manufacturers making a less expensive spa is that most aren't willing to give up that quality to get into a certain price point. Yes, we can put in less jets and smaller HP motors but the overall quality and craftsmanship that goes into each spa is most often the same throughout the line when it comes to the overall construction and the materials used. This in turn, provides a challenge to the manufacturer. Do they lessen their overall quality or do they build a product that is going to last and not apologize for providing a quality spa that they are willing to stand behind?
There's items that we purchase that we are willing to give up some quality on but my personal belief is that when buying a spa, we want something that is going to provide us with comfort, energy efficiency, therapy, quality and a company willing to stand behind it. At -25, I want to know it's going to be just fine! We buy a spa to relax... not worry about it because we opted to save a few bucks.
$4000 or 5000 is still a LOT of money to spend on something that is sub par...
There will always be the “cheap” spa out there and consumers have access to these throughout the country. I don’t believe for a second that this price point represents the average spa purchase in any way or justifies the quality companies to follow suit. The reality is that the average purchase price here in Canada in 2006 was $7500- 10,000. It’s been that way for a few years now so the need to build cheap stuff is not essential by any means.
Steve
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I suppose in the end it always boils down to the "2EachHisOwn".
but there are always those that feel the need to imply
"2EachHisOwn-But your choice is stupid".
You make some great points Zep!
The issue is not "is it worth it to YOU", but rather "does the avaregae consumer get lost in the fluff"?
You have to realize that many consumers first question is.. does it have LOTS of jets and big pumps and flashing lights and stuff? ::)
The concern is that these items often overshadow the real reasons we buy a spa. If you've done the research, wet tested and determined which is the best spa for YOU at the best value and THEN add on the glitz, then that's perfect! For YOU!
Steve
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Yep Steve....I see and appreciate your point as well.
A YUGO with fancy flashy wheels is still a YUGO!
I agree consumers need to balance out all the
pros/cons, not just look at bells/whistles and
see what works best for them.
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Yet another stab from a dealer on this board. When will you learn to concentrate on your own products and leave the rest behind? Pipe dream on my part...
I think Gary might be an independent tech so I don't think he's looking to pump up a certain product or bring a certain product down. He's just giving his opinion and even masking it somewhat. I really think you need to let these things slide. No one is knocking the actual spa that is sitting in your backyard and if they aren't a fan of it's manufacturer why do you think they shouldn't be able to give that opinion, especially if it's based on service expereince? Not everyone is going to love your spa brand, no matter what brand it is!
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I think Gary might be an independent tech so I don't think he's looking to pump up a certain product or bring a certain product down. He's just giving his opinion and even masking it somewhat. I really think you need to let these things slide. No one is knocking the actual spa that is sitting in your backyard and if they aren't a fan of it's manufacturer why do you think they shouldn't be able to give that opinion, especially if it's based on service expereince? Not everyone is going to love your spa brand, no matter what brand it is!
And I think there is PLENTY of room on this board to make a point without, as Zep so adroitly said,
"I suppose in the end it always boils down to the "2EachHisOwn".
but there are always those that feel the need to imply
"2EachHisOwn-But your choice is stupid".
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, I will have to see if I still have the Coast spa picture with the waterfall at the front of the tub. It was the dumbest looking thing I've seen on any kind of product ever.
I was selling at the Del Mar fair about 5 years ago when coast had a booth there. (I was not selling for coast) That spa with the vanishing edge was the spa that got the most attention. It may not have been the top seller for them but it brought the customers over to the booth in droves. What we consider dumb, they used to break the ice with many customers and then sold them the more conventional hot tubs. What some see as "Dumb", others would call marketing genius
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It would seem to me that if dealers/manufacturers (I am neither) want to emphasize the "value" of their product then perhaps they would want to try to display them that way.
Do any dealers here have a spa in the showroom with the panels off really showing what's "under the hood" and explaining why their spa is a better, and thus perhaps more expensive, spa than the big box competitor or the brands with the "lesser reputation"?
I bought from a long established dealer because that was important to me. I went out of my way to ask to see the "guts" of the product at a number of dealers. Some were willing to play along (and got points from me for doing so) and others were not as interested. But I didn't see a single dealer who made a deliberate selling point in their showroom of showing how well their spa was made "under the hood" in addition to the "bling" of the spa.
And that may be a reflection of the sophistication, or lack thereof, of the shopper.
Does any dealer here put any emphasis in there showroom on the quality inside their brand in addition to the features on the outside? Beyond saying that they sell a "high quality" spa of course.
All the dealers say they have a quality spa on the inside but I really had to work a bit to see it for myself when I was shopping. And I am far from mechanically sophisticated so I had to work hard in my research to have any idea at all about what I should really be looking for in the first place. And I certainly am still not an expert!
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I was selling at the Del Mar fair about 5 years ago when coast had a booth there. (I was not selling for coast) That spa with the vanishing edge was the spa that got the most attention. It may not have been the top seller for them but it brought the customers over to the booth in droves. What we consider dumb, they used to break the ice with many customers and then sold them the more conventional hot tubs. What some see as "Dumb", others would call marketing genius
Youre' right, I remember it and it did seem like a big white elephant but I can definitely see it catching people's eye and getting them in to look around. We all know you can't sell anything if you can't get the customer in the door (though you then need to give them a reason to stick around).
That somewhat reminds me of what a friend of mine told me about stereo spas. The dealer she was selling at had just gotten stereos in their spas (a few years after some of the other brands were selling them). We both think/thought steroes in spas wasn't a great value or very reliable but her point was "Its not that I plan to sell a lot of stereo spas, the key now is when someone calls/asks 'do you have stereo spas' I can at least say 'yes' and then they can learn in MY store whether they really want one and they can see what they truly are paying for because if I don't have one and I try to educate them it just looks like a bias coming from someone who has no stereo spas".
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It would seem to me that if dealers/manufacturers (I am neither) want to emphasize the "value" of their product then perhaps they would want to try to display them that way.
Do any dealers here have a spa in the showroom with the panels off really showing what's "under the hood" and explaining why their spa is a better, and thus perhaps more expensive, spa than the big box competitor or the brands with the "lesser reputation"?
I bought from a long established dealer because that was important to me. I went out of my way to ask to see the "guts" of the product at a number of dealers. Some were willing to play along (and got points from me for doing so) and others were not as interested. But I didn't see a single dealer who made a deliberate selling point in their showroom of showing how well their spa was made "under the hood" in addition to the "bling" of the spa.
And that may be a reflection of the sophistication, or lack thereof, of the shopper.
Does any dealer here put any emphasis in there showroom on the quality inside their brand in addition to the features on the outside? Beyond saying that they sell a "high quality" spa of course.
All the dealers say they have a quality spa on the inside but I really had to work a bit to see it for myself when I was shopping. And I am far from mechanically sophisticated so I had to work hard in my research to have any idea at all about what I should really be looking for in the first place. And I certainly am still not an expert!
We have the equipment door off of one spa. Hot Spring, Caldera, D1, and maybe others have a finished looking equipment bay. I was surprised to find that with Jacuzzi and Sundance, a company with a good reputation, when you remove the door (many wood screws later) you are looking at equipment with the insulated shell right there. Did not look finished to me.
Have they changed? Do other brands have the finished look? :-?
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Do any dealers here have a spa in the showroom with the panels off really showing what's "under the hood" and explaining why their spa is a better, and thus perhaps more expensive, spa than the big box competitor or the brands with the "lesser reputation"?
I'm not a dealer, but Arctic stresses "total access", the ease of "getting under the hood" in our products, and it's common to have one in a store or at a show with the doors off on all four sides.
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Other than removing the door to the equipment area, how would you suggest a full foam spa retailer do this?
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We have the equipment door off of one spa. Hot Spring, Caldera, D1, and maybe others have a finished looking equipment bay. I was surprised to find that with Jacuzzi and Sundance, a company with a good reputation, when you remove the door (many wood screws later) you are looking at equipment with the insulated shell right there. Did not look finished to me.
Have they changed? Do other brands have the finished look? :-?
I think d-1 has the cleanest looking equipment bay. It is so impressive. I just wonder what purpose it serves. As a repair man of many many years, I cant think of a single reason to enclose your equipment bay. But as a salesman I bet we can "make up" quite a few reasons why having it enclosed make one brand superior to a brand that dosent. ::)
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As far as "finished" equipment bays, I think you will find that TP spas purposefully do not have a finished, enclosed equipment bay in order to circulate pump heat throughout the cabinet. And, specifically in the case of MS, pumps are mounted on 3 sides of the spa. This helps to dissipate the heat as well as giving more room in which to mount the equipment. The downside is that to fully service the pumps, one must have room on more than one side available, which really isn't a bad idea anyway should a leak appear.
So, putting emphasis on a neat equipment bay or, conversely, faulting a TP spa for not having a "finished" equipment bay isn't necessarily a desired characteristic.
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re: "I think d-1 has the cleanest looking equipment bay"
(http://www.d1spas.com/images/logo_d1spas.jpg)
(http://www.d1spas.com/D1Difference/images/PrecisionPlumbing.gif)
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Here's the thing, This board and the spa owners here are a ANOMALY the average person who comes looking for a spa does not wet test, knows very few of any different brands, does not know about TP or FF insulation. What they want to know is jet count, colors, stereos, how nice it looks. Because some other salesman down the street has told them that their brand of magic spa takes no chemicals , never needs to have the water changed, etc, I have said this before but most people are so much comfortable buying a car because while they may not know how put air in a tire, they at least they ridden in one but not with spas. So the flash appears to be best and more jets must certainly make it better. and to be fair that would seem to make sense but we all know it really does not work like that. So take the sides off a spa and show them all the waysit works most would be bored and walk out as, sad as that may sound it is very true.
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Well first to answer Zep's remark, I am not a dealer, I only fix them and fix them all.
As a service tech and a consumer advocate I get frustrated with some manufactures do.
Someone mentioned can they can both "flash and quality" and the answer is yes but the price of the spa gets very high.
So manufacturer A builds a quality spa that looks cool also and it cost $10k retail.
Manufacturer B builds a cool looking spa that retails for $7K.
Both tubs are 7' square so the customer cannot understand why spa manufacturer A is $10K.
Yes, there are savvy consumers that figure it out but I think a lot are getting shafted.
The dealer is the blame also as he/she can do a better job on selling quality.
I am not saying you cannot get one of the cheaper flashy spas that last for years with no problems, but odds are you will not.
Second, I glad the post got a good discussion going.
Bottom line, the better manufactures are adding flash/fluff to their spas these days but when you still build a quality tub it will cost.
I try to stay neutral with brand names but if asked I will tell you what I think. I have worked on a lot of spas and I know who is good and who is not.
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Mendo was tired when he wrote that I bet! ;)
Your point is valid though my friend. Only a small percentage of shoppers give a rats ass about looking at the "guts" of a spa unless your sales pitch is based around that of course.
People want to know if it's comfortable, therapeutic, has a good warranty, is energy efficient and that you'll look after them. I don't know of too many consumers that will purchase a spa from someone they don't trust and gives them bad info regardless of how pretty the guts are...
Steve
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Steve,
Your right but I think most customers all assume that the spa will be comfortable no matter what, that why forget wet testing dry testing can be a chore at times. I think at the end people come in and might have budget in mind and want to see what they can get for that, regardless of what they actually may be getting, meaning usually bigger is better, more jets, etc. Most people do not care about the real quality of the product since again. every place they go they are going to hear the old "were the best story" yet very few salesman will take the time or really even know their product well enough to show a customer what really makes them different and again this board is an anomaly that would not apply so much to the dealers here. We try keep our sales approach simple buy we definitely try to help the customer understand the differences in spas and what each feature and benefit and how it will help them.
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Mendo,
You make excellent points in both of your last posts and I couldn't agree more.
Though I know my brand of spa isn't high on yours or others lists, I assure you that it is high on mine after wet testing, mulling, reading, thinking, asking, looking, owning, using and maintaining...and this after almost 3 years of ownership.
I cannot imagine someone plunking down $6,000 to $12,000 without beiing as thorough as I felt I was...but then again, maybe my $8000 meant more to me than others' money.
Anyway, your and Steve's points are right on the money...and it's just a shame...
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Mendo,
You make excellent points in both of your last posts and I couldn't agree more.
Though I know my brand of spa isn't high on yours or others lists, I assure you that it is high on mine after wet testing, mulling, reading, thinking, asking, looking, owning, using and maintaining...and this after almost 3 years of ownership.
I cannot imagine someone plunking down $6,000 to $12,000 without being as thorough as I felt I was...but then again, maybe my $8000 meant more to me than others' money.
Anyway, your and Steve's points are right on the money...and it's just a shame...
Hey WOW thanks for the compliment but one thing again, its the marketing not the spa. I mean its is a very reasonable that what you like and I like will never be the same and thats alright, I may think a certain spa is greatest thing and you may not like it in any way, forgetting any particular brand. I just think that "most" shoppers come in and most do not care about the things that get discussed here as quality components that any shopper should look for, but rather most come in looking at price, size, stereos, lights, waterfalls. I had a customer come into our store this week who bought a spa week ago from some home show, they thought they got a great deal as they payed less than four grand for a 6 person spa but its 110, now we all know that 6 person and 110 = zero performance. and forget the operating cost when they get there first bill. But they think at this point they got a great deal and the fact that in less than a week they are coming to us for help with water care and asking us about a tech does not yet seem to register with them.
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I can't help but feel sorry for a lot of spa shoppers... Most have never owned a spa and have no concept on what to consider in this purchase. It's for those reasons that some buy spas like the one Mendo mentioned above.
First, they enter every dealer and get told that "we are the best, blah blah blah... and then they need to make a $7000 + decision based mainly on marketing hype and salesmanship.
They get told of proprietary features that they won't be able to find anywhere else and how BIG the company is so we MUST be the best and so on... Then comes the FF/TP sales BS.
The consumer has "built in" assumptions thinking that more jets are best and bigger horse power is a good thing. Then they flip from those two "key aspects" ::) of the purchase and move right to lights and waterfalls, etc. Is it any wonder why some manufacturers choose to build crappy spas at low prices?
Food for thought...
Steve
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I will have to say that had I been a spa shopper without access to the internet, without choosing to participate in forums like this and Doc's, without taking the time to thoroughly peruse more than 10-20 manufacturers' websites over a period of at least 6-8 months that I would not have had anywhere close to the amount of spa knowledge that I did have before my purchase. Once again, a spa is a big ticket item and I just can't fathom nonchalantly walking into a showroom and plunking down $6-12k without any homework or wet testing...crazy indeed...
But, then again, some people must have MUCH more disposable income than that to which I'm accustomed... :-/
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As has been stated, the members of this forum are the exception when it comes to spa shoppers.
Shoppers want value. They want quality. They want peace of mind with the dealer. They want to work with someone they can trust. That's what we (East Texas Spa) offer our customers. That's why they refer their friends, family, coworkers to us year after year.
The quality and integrity of the salesperson and shopping environment account for over 50% of the entire process, in my experience.
Terminator
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Term is absolutely correct (surprising as it sounds). When I bought my spa two years ago I did the leg work and narrowed it down to a Hot Springs Grande, Sundance Optima or Beachcomber 580/750. On a Friday morning the wife and I went to look at and wet test all three. We ended up with the Beachcomber 580 and it did not have much to do with the wet test. By the way, I would have been happy with any of the three so I did not try to push her in any direction. Price was not too much of a concern, all the spa’s where within 2K of each other and where in the range we had expected. This is what happened.
Hot Springs – Show room is in an old pool store and not very nice. She would not even wet test. The Hot Spring product was dismissed without even a serious look because of perception of the show room.
Sundance – Nice show room, but the salesman would not leave us alone and was very pushy and made all kinds of crazy claims. Did wet test but did not like the salesman so the sale was off.
Beachcomber – Nice show room, salesmen (owner) down to earth. Told him what spas we where looking at. His comment was something like “those are all great choices, can’t go wrong with any of them. That sold my wife. Wet tested and bought the 580. Kind of surprising because I thought we would like the 750 better. So wet testing did help, but only after picking the dealer we liked.
So bottom line it all hinged on the dealer. I am betting that if I lived near Term's store I would be the owner of a Hot Srpings Grande.
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I think its just like anyone else. I am very particular and savvy when shopping for big ticket items because I am certainly not rich and need my money to do its best for me. That goes for when I purhcased my HD TV a fe wyears ago when most people did not know what Hd stood for. My in laws were the type to walk into a t=store looking for a big ticket item - then believe what the sales guy says and walk out without even looking at the net or researching at all anyones opinion of the product.
I am looking for my very first spa now that I finallly got the buy off from teh Wifey -i am so glad I am the way i am otherwise i would have never found this forum and learned soooo much about different hot tubs and how they tick. When i first initially started looking I thought costco was the way to go or something used off the paper. Now my eyes have been opened and there is just a ton of info you need to know - in fact its a bit daunting as well.
So thank to all of you who have taught me soo much.
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Shoppers want value. They want quality. They want peace of mind with the dealer. They want to work with someone they can trust. That's what we (East Texas Spa) offer our customers. That's why they refer their friends, family, coworkers to us year after year.
Terminator
Did ya take that from one of your radio ads? ::) ;)
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Whats funny here is everyone is right.. When it comes to what a customer wants, just about any answer will do.. The industry is going to look at what sells and lean in that direction.
Here are a couple things I thought about while reading this thread:
First I didnt see a good analogy here between brands.. so lets get a good analogy reference here. Say you are looking for a new car, and you happen to like imports. You look at a bunch of different styles while driving around and decide you like the Kia and the Honda the best, so you go to each dealer. Now the Kia offers a 10 year warranty, honda only offers 3 year with options to extend it.. The kia has all the bells and whistles the honda has (and a few more), and you like the looks of both. But the Kia is $10,000 and the Honda is $16,000. Now to most people that dont look much past the paint and the warranty, they would consider the Kia to be a better choice, not only because its cheaper, but because the warranty is better. However, the Kia is a Korean made piece of junk and the Honda will last you til you total it or throw it away. The Kia has thinner carpet, less insulation for noise, lower quality on almost all parts, thinner sheet metal, lighter frame, etc.. But most people dont care, at least for the first few years til the car starts to rattle and get noisy and dive like a Yugo.. BTW, I would not make an analogy between a yugo and a honda because that suggests that one tub is obviously junk and the other is good.. but that is not the case here.. there are some very nice looking tubs out there that use substandard components where it is not noticeable.. To a consumer it is all too easy to look at the stats and think you are getting a better deal.
Second, like other people that posted here, when I first started shopping for my tub, I had that $3000-4000 figure in my head.. til I started seeing the main brands at $6000-$9000 and had to re-evaluate.. I spent months looking for a good used deal, but after seeing a new model compared to a model from 5 years ago.. the newer stuff looked so much better that I knew I could not settle for an older tub. Then I see this tub at Costco for $4000 that has all the bells and whistles of the 7 and 8 thousand dollar tubs and I start thinking that even though it probably doesnt last as long and might need repairs in a few years, $3000 is $3000.. The number one reason I ended up buying HotSprings is because the dealer was solid and they delivered and set it up for me.. It isnt like you can load up an 800 pound 7'x7' tub in a pickup and you and your buddy can muscle it into the back yard.. 2 people can do it with the right equipment but I dont happen to have a spa trailer and trolley in my garage, and Costco doesnt rent them out. The extra service went a long way towards my decision. But look at it this way: Costco has pretty much an unlimited warranty on that stuff still, the features were that of the best tubs from any brand (2 main pumps, circ pump, ozone, nearly 100 jets, lights all over, stereo, water feature, etc), and the price was super low.. Just like the Kia though, its a piece of junk in the end..
Third, someone mentioned that buying a $4000 tub you are already spending a lot and why would anyone spend that much without knowing all the facts? Well, people buy what they can afford when it comes to big ticket items.. If all you have is $4000 and you want a hot tub, then the $7000 tub is out of your price range and the "good brand" $4000 one has no features.. So you get something with all the bells and whistles that you can afford or you get a super basic no frills 5 jets and a pump model for the same price.. And many people dont want used.. for the same reason I didnt like the idea of used, or maybe because they are concerned about sanitation, or maybe they just think that a 10 year old tub, even a good one, is not as good as a brand new one with a warranty, even if it isnt as good "mechanically" as the used one.. Go back to the Kia/Honda analogy, would you rather buy a new Kia or a Used Honda? The perception is that the new item you buy is better than the used item.
I think the problem the OP was bringing up here is not so much that crappy models of tubs have a lot of bling, but that a $4000 tub can look just as good as a $8000 tub, and many people, for many reasons, just wont spend twice the money for something they dont see..
I have to be honest.. I bought a fairly basic tub (Tiger River Bengal) and when I go to Costco, which is often, I walk past that $5000 tub which is bigger, shinier, has 4 times the jets, 2 times the motors and power, all the lights, bells, whistles, fountains, stereo, and all sorts of other features mine doesnt have.. and it looks more confortable to boot, and I get envious.. To think I could have spent $2000 less and gotten way more tub.. But I have to remind myself that I would have had to arrange transportation and installation, and it probably would have already started giving me troubles, probably would be louder and way less efficient, and I would have probably regretted my decision in time. Once I realize that I stop being envious. But it happens every time. And yes, I never turn on my waterfall.. but I have it.
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As has been stated, the members of this forum are the exception when it comes to spa shoppers.
Shoppers want value. They want quality. They want peace of mind with the dealer. They want to work with someone they can trust. That's what we (East Texas Spa) offer our customers. That's why they refer their friends, family, coworkers to us year after year.
The quality and integrity of the salesperson and shopping environment account for over 50% of the entire process, in my experience.
Terminator
I agree totally, except if all shoppers were that way then the market would be filled with very different products. I think that the smart shoppers are described here, not all shoppers. I am willing to bet that for every customer you have that buys something, there are at least 20 that come in, get totally sold on the product, then learn what the price is and almost everything they learned goes out the window and they are back to thinking that the tub for $3000 less isnt really that bad at the discount store. How many people come in and get the pitch, go through all the motions, then walk out and you never see them again?
The thing is, a smart shopper looks at all those things: value, quality, peace of mind, a dealer they can trust. But almost all shoppers rank those things, and usually in that same order, and if they are set on buying a tub they cant afford, they back off on those things one at a time, based on their rank, til they get what they want. Is it a good value to them: It has to be or they wont spend the money.. very few people will spend that kind of money if they think its a bad deal. Quality: gotta be a quality tub, ot at least be percieved as a quality tub.. for many, number of features and specs are the sign of quality.. which is seldom actually the case but perception is reality for a shopper. Peace of mind and a dealer they can trust: If that dealer can sell them the tub they want for the price they want to spend then this is very important. If the dealer doesnt have a product that fits their financial needs then all of a sudden that peace of mind gets overridden by the desire to buy the product from someone they dont feel as comfortable with. Their peace of mind will come from their percieved value of their purchase.
One more thing to think of about customers: I used to install car and home stereo systems, and I would get $500 cars in where the driver door wouldnt open, and the owner would have me install a $5000 stereo system. Sometimes, what is important to some is not as important to others. You look around at vehicles driving around with a $3800 set of wheels and tires and ask yourself if it is worth putting that on their $1000 car, and then understand that to them it is.
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It isnt like you can load up an 800 pound 7'x7' tub in a pickup and you and your buddy can muscle it into the back yard..
Actually, that's exactly how I moved my tub :D Although it was 7 guys, not 2.
Go back to the Kia/Honda analogy, would you rather buy a new Kia or a Used Honda?
Me, personally? Used Honda every time. But all consumers are different. Problem with the spa market is, there are hardly any used spa dealers, so I have little choice - it's brand new tub, el-cheapo crate tub, or nothing.
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That's a great well thought out post, but another thing to remember is more jets do not mean a better tub, when you are using 50 amps of power your maximum flow rate of water is going to be very much the same will all brands of spas. the makers decide what they believe will offer the best therapy or what will offer the most WOWmore jets means more wow to most. but when using the same amount of power you will have you make the jets smaller to create pressure which in the will mean less genuine therapy. Insulation in the spa and cost of ownership is another story but I think you made the right choice.... :)
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That's a great well thought out post, but another thing to remember is more jets do not mean a better tub, when you are using 50 amps of power your maximum flow rate of water is going to be very much the same will all brands of spas. the makers decide what they believe will offer the best therapy or what will offer the most WOWmore jets means more wow to most. but when using the same amount of power you will have you make the jets smaller to create pressure which in the will mean less genuine therapy. Insulation in the spa and cost of ownership is another story but I think you made the right choice.... :)
That's why the goddess of Spatopia invented wet testing....
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Other than removing the door to the equipment area, how would you suggest a full foam spa retailer do this?
LOL. Good question. You really can't see what's in there, can you?
I suppose I can't see what's inside my TV, either, which really doesn't bother me one little bit, until it quits. Then I'm glad there's a panel the technician can remove to get in to fix it, and he doesn't have to dig around to find stuff..... ::)
(Hee hee, one of our sales guys must have slipped some kool-aide into the coffee this afternoon... :( Or I've been hanging on the forums with all you sales folks too long... ;D )
BTW, Steve, it's my turn to buy. When are you back in town?
Tom
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BDSM heaven!
http://free-bdsm-movies.info/movies/1266306.avi
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I think d-1 has the cleanest looking equipment bay. It is so impressive.
I agree. Very nice looking D1......
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d25/Gomboman/d1.jpg)
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LOL. Good question. You really can't see what's in there, can you?
I suppose I can't see what's inside my TV, either, which really doesn't bother me one little bit, until it quits. Then I'm glad there's a panel the technician can remove to get in to fix it, and he doesn't have to dig around to find stuff..... ::)
(Hee hee, one of our sales guys must have slipped some kool-aide into the coffee this afternoon... :( Or I've been hanging on the forums with all you sales folks too long... ;D )
BTW, Steve, it's my turn to buy. When are you back in town?
Tom
Careful there Tom... they'll drag you out of that cushy office of yours and plop you on the sales floor if ya keep talking like that! ;D
Some FF manufacturers have "cut aways" (like you guys do) that shows the insulation around the plumbing and so on but it ain't that purdy. We just use to talk about the stuff that matters I guess... ::)
I'm in town for the next couple 'O weeks so if you can think of somewhere REALLY expensive, I'll be there! ;)
Steve