Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: Webini on December 29, 2006, 03:33:06 pm
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I'm taking the plunge (no pun intended) and doing a drain a refill today. First time on my new Jetsetter.
My initial fill of water was provided by the dealer at install. I've got my chemical routine down now (Vermonter method).
I drained the tub at noon using a submersible pump. No issues there. Removed filters and N2 cartridge.
I cleaned the entire tub using highly chlorinated water and a Magic Eraser.
Then I attached the HotSpring FreshStart pre-filter to my faucet, attached the hose, and put the other end in the pipe. Let the filling begin.
Here's the thing. I have well water. VERY hard water with lots of iron. I have a water softener that does a good job with the hardness, not so good with the iron. Anyway, I cannot bypass the softener for reasons that take too long to explain.
The fill is almost done. The water seems to have a very green tinge to it. The funny thing is that if I put some in a glass it looks clear. My guess is that I have lots of iron. Not good.
The pH is low, calcium VERY low. I can bring the pH up and hopefully bring the calcium up. Obviously I'm going to give the tub a massive dichlor shock.
Any idea what can I do about the color / rust? Stain & Scale Defense? Will it clear with the shock? Or am I scr*wed? :-[
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Could you post a pic from you water?
what is the color of your shell?
My water look also a bit green do to the shell color and the use of bromine
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No one has answered, I hope this is the right thing to do...
First DON'T shock yet...you need to remove the iron before you add any chlorine products. I will take a guess that the green tint may be from the low Ph and...(if you have copper pipes).
Anyway, you have filled your tub and need to remove the residual iron that your softener missed by using a stain and scale before you do anything else. Chlorine will make the rust much worse, you need to first remove it. I usually add my stain and scale as the tub is filling and let it run for a couple of hours before adding any sanitizer. after you have let the tub run...(I wait until it is up to temperature), add the other chemicals to adjust your ph etc. Then when they are pretty much right, add your sanitizer.
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Your dealer should have given you instructions that would have allowed you to duplicate what they did on the first fill. It sounds like you should use a metal remover. Usually you put that in right away, let it filter for a day to remove as much metal as possible, then rinse the filters before continuing on with balancing the water. If you don't get the metals out, your first shock will oxidize them, and you may see even more color (think rust). Check your stain/scale product. Some of those are for calcium, not metals.
I'm surprized that your dealer recommended all soft water, most of the time I have seen recs for partial soft because softened water can be corrosive on sensitive components. Make sure your warranty won't be affected by the use of soft water.
Sometimes color tints in the water can be reflections from the surrounding area. One respected member here had us going 'round when he was a newbie, trying to help him clear up a green tint that turned out to be a reflection from a nearby tree. :-[
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The fill is almost done. The water seems to have a very green tinge to it. The funny thing is that if I put some in a glass it looks clear. My guess is that I have lots of iron. Not good.
Any idea what can I do about the color / rust? Stain & Scale Defense? Will it clear with the shock? Or am I scr*wed? :-[
Webini
Iron content in the water will make it red, copper will make it green. Boni is right, you should use a stain and scale reducer before shocking. Also if your tub has a white shell it could just be an underlying tone in the white colour. Think about the last time you painted your ceiling and how many different shades of white there were :o
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Could you post a pic from you water?
what is the color of your shell?
My water look also a bit green do to the shell color and the use of bromine
It's dark out now and I'd have to use a flash so I'll have to wait until morning. I think the flash would distort the color.
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Your dealer should have given you instructions that would have allowed you to duplicate what they did on the first fill. It sounds like you should use a metal remover. Usually you put that in right away, let it filter for a day to remove as much metal as possible, then rinse the filters before continuing on with balancing the water. If you don't get the metals out, your first shock will oxidize them, and you may see even more color (think rust). Check your stain/scale product. Some of those are for calcium, not metals.
I'm surprized that your dealer recommended all soft water, most of the time I have seen recs for partial soft because softened water can be corrosive on sensitive components. Make sure your warranty won't be affected by the use of soft water.
Sometimes color tints in the water can be reflections from the surrounding area. One respected member here had us going 'round when he was a newbie, trying to help him clear up a green tint that turned out to be a reflection from a nearby tree. :-[
I am duplicating what they did on the first fill. The difference is that they brought the water in a tank and did not use my well water.
My house is a light blue and the shell is "sand" so I've seen a bit of a green tint before. Nothing like this though.
Dealer said the soft water was OK as long as I immediately got the calcium level up. I've accomplished that and gotten the pH up. Stain & Scale is next I guess.
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No one has answered, I hope this is the right thing to do...
First DON'T shock yet...you need to remove the iron before you add any chlorine products. I will take a guess that the green tint may be from the low Ph and...(if you have copper pipes).
Anyway, you have filled your tub and need to remove the residual iron that your softener missed by using a stain and scale before you do anything else. Chlorine will make the rust much worse, you need to first remove it. I usually add my stain and scale as the tub is filling and let it run for a couple of hours before adding any sanitizer. after you have let the tub run...(I wait until it is up to temperature), add the other chemicals to adjust your ph etc. Then when they are pretty much right, add your sanitizer.
OK, no shock yet. I do have copper pipes. I'll let the Stain & Scale run overnight.
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pshew! Glad you read before you dumped in your sanitizer...you would have really been unhappy tomorrow!
I have well water but I turn off my water softener. I tend to get iron too, sometimes a lot of iron! My one set of filters are so stained that I have decided to keep them to just use on refills..that way both sets of filters aren't so rusty looking.
Just curious if you have thought of a neutralizing system for your water? The low ph will eventually do a numer on your copper pipes...pitting them and causing leaks... :-/ Just something to think about...
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pshew! Glad you read before you dumped in your sanitizer...you would have really been unhappy tomorrow!
I have well water but I turn off my water softener. I tend to get iron too, sometimes a lot of iron! My one set of filters are so stained that I have decided to keep them to just use on refills..that way both sets of filters aren't so rusty looking.
Just curious if you have thought of a neutralizing system for your water? The low ph will eventually do a numer on your copper pipes...pitting them and causing leaks... :-/ Just something to think about...
I've had the pH tested for the house and it is low, but not a problem for the pipes. It was fairly easy to bring the pH up in the tub. The calcium level was a bit more difficult but it is OK now.
I'm letting the jets run for 2 hours and then will let the tub heat up and see what I have in the morning. If I can't get the water to settle down I'm going to have to get deliveries from somewhere. It will not be cheap...
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I'm sure you can get your water straightened out...it just may take a few days...good luck ;)
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This is a very interesting discussion, especially for us new people. It sounds like you are getting some good advice. It will be interesting to see if you have the problem solved by tomorrow. I hope you do! Good Luck.
Neo
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This is a very interesting discussion, especially for us new people. It sounds like you are getting some good advice. It will be interesting to see if you have the problem solved by tomorrow. I hope you do! Good Luck.
Neo
People always give great advice here. I'll post in the morning with a picture. Hopefully I can get this solved and the info will help someone else.
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With well water high in iron, I would use a metal sequester such as Leisure Time Metal Gon. A stain and scale product protect more against calcium problems. Though some stain and scales help with metals, a product just to suspend or sequester metals is safer, IMO. I use Leisure Time Products because it is what my dealer sells. I have high iron and manganese. Metal Gon is only used at a new fill. Leisure Time stain and scale is Defender used weekly or biweekly. It does not sequester metals.
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With well water high in iron, I would use a metal sequester such as Leisure Time Metal Gon. A stain and scale product protect more against calcium problems. Though some stain and scales help with metals, a product just to suspend or sequester metals is safer, IMO. I use Leisure Time Products because it is what my dealer sells. I have high iron and manganese. Metal Gon is only used at a new fill. Leisure Time stain and scale is Defender used weekly or biweekly. It does not sequester metals.
Unfortunately I won't be able to get to my dealer until Sunday. Will any metal removal product work? How much damage will I be doing if I don't get this corrected until then?
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No worries about damage. If you have Freshwater Stain and Scale Defense it should help prevent staining from the iron.
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[size=16]LISTEN TO TONY[/size]
Yes, any product designed as a metal remover for spas will work. A stain and scale preventer will not )(though I'm not familiar with the Freshwater product). I wouldn't put any shock, chlorine or bromine into the water until you can run it for 24 hours after adding a metal removal product.
Unfortunately I won't be able to get to my dealer until Sunday. Will any metal removal product work? How much damage will I be doing if I don't get this corrected until then?
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[size=16]LISTEN TO TONY[/size]
Yes Sir! ;D
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I too use all soft water in my tub. Dealer said it was fine as long as I bring the calcium up. He did not say to use any kind of metal remover.
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I use Spaguard Stain and Scale (supplied by my dealer) which also removes the iron, sorry if that was confusing. I guess different products are labeled as stain and scale and only prevent scale build-up..In any case, this product does an excellent job of getting the iron out..as evidenced by my very rusty filters!
Pa lady, since you are using soft water, you probably don't have residual iron in your water. Webini may have more iron in the water to start with and his softener isn't able to pull it all out?? I guess..
Hope your water situation is improving ;)
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I use Spaguard Stain and Scale (supplied by my dealer) which also removes the iron, sorry if that was confusing. I guess different products are labeled as stain and scale and only prevent scale build-up..In any case, this product does an excellent job of getting the iron out..as evidenced by my very rusty filters!
Pa lady, since you are using soft water, you probably don't have residual iron in your water. Webini may have more iron in the water to start with and his softener isn't able to pull it all out?? I guess..
Hope your water situation is improving ;)
This is why I prefer sequestering products to handle metals....no rusty filters, no metals falling to the bottom. My technology won't be exact, but sequesterers surround the metals and render them "invisible" or "harmless" rather than removing them.
Pa lady, your soft water most likely means low calcium. My town water is high in metals, yet low in calcium...what would you call that? ;)
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First off, Dr. Spa and Tony are absolutely correct. Stain and Scale will not sequester the metals. If you decide to use your raw well water, you should use a product like Metal Gon instead. They are not the same product nor do they perform the same fuction.
I also had to make a decision between very bad well water (very low pH and Alk, a lot of rust and copper) and using softened water. My HotSpring dealer had both the well water and the softened water tested and recommended using the softened water only and then bring up the calcuim with a calcium increaser. Another reason we went this way was because I also use Nature2. There is some debate as to whether products like Stain & Scale and Metal Gon will coat the silver in the Nature2 cartridge and prevent it from doing whatever it is it does. So to avoid ruining the Nature2 cartridge, we avoid using these products if possible.
After my initial fill with softened water, I brought up the Calcuim and lowered the pH and Alk to recommended levels. After 2 days I had a nasty brown sticky ring around the tub. I removed this with Baking Soda and it has never come back. Water has been good in the month since.
On a side note, I used to fill my old tub with well water only. It eventually did stain the tub.
Hope my experience may help
Rich
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So, Tony, you are saying that the iron stays in the water but is tied up and can't react with the chlorine?...I am confused..I thought that it would need to be bound and removed..I am just using the product that my dealer gave me...and since it worked, I never looked at anything else. I am not happy with the nasty stains on my filters though!
I need to go get a new set of filters, so I guess I will ask about alternate iron removal and a physical filter for my hose!
Thanks ;)
OK, now another soft water question...I know that using the soft water in my evaporative humidifier eventually results in salts accumulating on the wicking filters. As the water evaporates in the tub wouldn't the salt concentrate? Could that damage the heater or pumps?
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My technology is rusty and someone can correct me, but my understanding is that sequesterers don't remove metals...they somehow surround or engulf them and render them harmless. I am familiar with the metal removers that separate the metals and filter them out or drop them to the bottom to be vacuumed. Sequesterers work differently and quite well, I might add.
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Guess I better investigate better..I am planning on a clean and refill next week...thanks guys :)
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OK, here is my update. Could not post until now as I was at HS basketball games all day.
I opened the tub this morning and the color was much better. Almost back to normal. I pulled one of my Tri-X filters (just put in clean with the refill) and it was stained a light red. Seems to be doing its job. Hopefully it will clean up OK.
I went to a spa store on the way to the game and got the equivalent to Metal Gon. I just followed the directions and put 2.5oz into the filter well and set the jets to run for a while. The bottle says to wait 12 hours before shocking and to change the filters again.
I'm going to my HS dealer tomorrow and get a set of the std filters. I think I'll use those in the future for filtering duties during a water change until everything is stable. Then I'll install the Tri-X.
I did notice tonight that when I opened the lid that there were some white things floating in the water. I assume this is because I have not shocked and they will be filtered out.
For the sake of others that may have the same issues here is where I think I went wrong:
- I'm in Maine so I had the outside faucet shut off and just turned it on for the fill. I should have let the water run for a minute prior to the fill. My guess is that some rust had accumulated in the pipe and got past the pre-filter. Stupid on my part.
- When the tub was drained I gave it a good wipe down. I filled a 5 gallon bucket and dropped in a teaspoon of Dichlor. Once I was done I dumped the remaining water in the bucket into the tub. This was stupid decision #2 since the Dichlor I guess reacted with the metals and made things worse.
Live and learn I guess. This would have been a perfect night to soak - 3" of new snow, 20 degrees, no wind, and lots of stars out...
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Bad water? I feel your pain:
(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e106/TatooedLady/DSCF0168.jpg)
This is our hard water AFTER letting it run to "clear the pipes" for about 10 minutes....
However, I'd solved quite a bit of my problem with just running the jets a lot after the fill. Yes, the Tri-X filters stained orange, but they cleaned up decently (still orange-y), and do their job.
Now that spigot's been broken off the side of the house and not fixed, so we're using softened water, which looks MUCH MUCH better.....different chemicals needed, however.
Best of luck to you and your cruddy water!
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Yikes! I feel a bit better now. :)
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I think this thread jinxed me..or was it the Curse of the Philadelphia Eagles? I went to my dealer last week and got a hose filter and I specifically asked about a metal sequestering agent (because of this post). They told me that they don't even sell one because the stain and scale does the job..OK, I thought, since I haven't had a problem, I would just do my routine using the stain and scale....
Sunday it was warm and I decided to change my water. I followed my regular routine exactly as I have every other time I have refilled...adding the stain and scale during the fill and running the tub for hours before adding the bromine frog cartridge.
When I opened the tub this morning...my water was GREEN! :o :o :(
I called my dealer and he said he just had another customer with the same problem and they added more stain and scale and it cleared in a day or so....So I added more and will see how it looks tomorrow.
Doc, Rich, Tony, do any of you know if it would it be safe to add metal gone or a sequestering agent on top of all this stain and scale that I dumped in... if it doesn't clear? I am going to see if the pool store near me carries it... because as much as I enjoyed all my green Eagles stuff...I don't want green spa water!! :(OR Should I just dump and refill with the metal gone first? :'(
This is so weird, I thought someone dumped dye in the tub! >:(
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Bonibelle: I think I read that you are on a well and have a water softner which you bypass when filling your tub. My uneducated suggestion is that if you have such a problem with iron in your raw well water, consider using the softened water and then bring up the Calcium with a calcium increaser.
I have very high levels of iron in my well water but apparently, my water softener also removes a lot of the iron as it softens the water. I have found very little difficulty with metals in my tub water since I started using the softened water. I just add calcuim.
Dr. Spa and others on this board certainly have much more experience than I do, so I defer to them in advance if they disagree with this suggestion.
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I agree with Rich100. We also have iron in our well water and use the water from the water softner to fill the tub and then add calcium increaser. So far that works for us.
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Thanks, the water looks a bit better this morning...When I top the tub off, I always add soft water. I guess that is the route that I will take from now on..(unless someone says otherwise) It is strange because my pool is always topped with my raw well water and I don't remember any problems like this...
My filters turn rusty when I first fill my tub, but I have never had green water! :(
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Assuming you are doing a drain and fill using soft water and you have iron and copper issues, is the following the correct order for chemicals?
Right after fill:
- change filters (I have filters I use just for the first couple of days after a refill)
- sequestering agent
- raise calcium
12 hours later:
- test ph, alk, calcium adjust as needed
- shock
24 hours later:
- test, adjust as needed
- change filters
- add N2 stick
- enjoy!
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Close enough.
I wouldn't bother testing @ 24 hours. I would wait a week.
Key point is
enjoy! ;)