Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: brnelson on March 26, 2007, 06:44:49 am
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I couldn't fit substantially higher in the title. Finally I am getting close to pulling the trigger. I wet tested a HS Vanguard, a Sundance Optima, a HS Envoy and a Tiger River Caspian yesterday. I liked the Optima best. Three deep seats and the jets seemed powerful. I also liked the foot jets. Unfortunately it is getting out of my price range ($9,600). Also the sales lady said that the operating costs on the Vanguard could be as much as double the Vanguard (which I probably liked second best). I also liked the Envoy but I really don't want a lounger. She is coming back to me with a price today on the Vanguard as a Hot Spring sales begins this week. Dos it make senses that the Optima operating costs would be that much higher? She seemed to be pushing the Hot Spring more than the Sudance. She mentioned that Vanguard winter operting costs here in New England would be about $45 a month compared to as much as $90 or $100 on the Optima. As always, your thoughts would be appreciated.
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Sounds like for whatever reason, she wants to steer you to HS.
I don't think there are any studies that have been published that rate one spa more or less energy efficient than another. If there are, I'd love to see them.
From what I've read and heard over the years, good quality spas all cost pretty much the same to run, all things being equal.
You're only going to know the power costs of the spa you buy, not the ones you didn't.
It stands to reason that it takes more energy to heat and maintain temperatures on higher volumes of water- the Optima clocks in around 500 gallons, not sure about the other ones.
Get the spa you like best, or the one that fits your budget best, etc....
My Optima costs probably about a $1 per day, average. More in winter, less in summer. You costs will be different- your useage patterns, and the cost per KWH you pay for power will have a huge impact on the actual electric bill.
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She mentioned that Vanguard winter operting costs here in New England would be about $45 a month compared to as much as $90 or $100 on the Optima. As always, your thoughts would be appreciated.
I don't believe the Vanguard would be that much less to operate then the optima if both spas were used the same.
We metered the power use on an Optima here in Ontario Canada in February when the temps with wind chills were hovering around -25C to -30C.
The meter was on the spa for 34 days, hydro cost for 34 days was $37.00.
The client uses the optima twice a day, every day morning and evening about 30 min per use.
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I can guarantee you the Optima will cost more than the Vanguard to operate. Double? Probably not that much more. A few reasons for it, the Optima has 2 - 2.5HP motors and the Vanguard has 2 - 1.65 HP motors and the Optima also has a 1.5HP air blower which the Vanguard does not have in their spa. Just the extra HP will cause the operating costs to increase. Also the Optima has 20% more water.
If you want a better comparison to the Optima, you would need to be comparing the Grandee.
$9,600 is reasonable for an Optima with no stereo.
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Agreeing with the above. Vanguard should cost less to operate. How much less hard to say.
JohnD's post left out critcal factors:
What is the cost of kwh?
How does the cost convert to US $?
Hot Spring has published 3rd party testing for energy costs the Sovereign.
http://www.hotspring.com/Spa_Showroom_Hot_Tub/energy-efficiency.html The Vanguard should be close to those numbers. Sundance has not. One could only wonder why.
By the way, I understand comparing Hot Spring's data with John's test is apples to oranges, but, it shows the Sovereign in Calgary costing $19.28/month, Canadian $.
In conclusion, the Vanguard should cost less than the Optima to operate. Half as much, probably not.
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I will be installing a 2006 Vanguard this spring in Indianapolis. I am hoping it will cost less than $30 per month to operate. I pay around 9 cents per kwh. My wife doesn't like the water super hot so we will probably keep it around 101. I plan on monitoring my electric bills pretty closely the first couple months to be able to track how much my bill increases.
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I couldn't fit substantially higher in the title. Finally I am getting close to pulling the trigger. I wet tested a HS Vanguard, a Sundance Optima, a HS Envoy and a Tiger River Caspian yesterday. I liked the Optima best. Three deep seats and the jets seemed powerful. I also liked the foot jets. Unfortunately it is getting out of my price range ($9,600). Also the sales lady said that the operating costs on the Vanguard could be as much as double the Vanguard (which I probably liked second best). I also liked the Envoy but I really don't want a lounger. She is coming back to me with a price today on the Vanguard as a Hot Spring sales begins this week. Dos it make senses that the Optima operating costs would be that much higher? She seemed to be pushing the Hot Spring more than the Sudance. She mentioned that Vanguard winter operting costs here in New England would be about $45 a month compared to as much as $90 or $100 on the Optima. As always, your thoughts would be appreciated.
My Optima is older and configured a little different than the new models, but operating costs don't come close to the figures she is quoting...maybe half that and I am in New England. I know from my dealer who sells both Sundance and HotSpring spas, that the operating costs of the Optima and the Grandee are pretty close. You may look at the SD Majesta which is an Optima clone but smaller...more in line with the size spas you are comparing to.
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The pump draw is one component of cost. If the one tub has pumps that draw less current while they are in operation, then the spa will use less power IF the pumps don't run any longer for some reason.
Power consumption is the amount of amps. drawn over a period of time.
I'd speculate that the heater would impact the cost just as much if not more. Again it's a matter of power draw over a period of time. If they both have 5K heaters, and they hold heat in so they run about the same, then heating costs would be equal, or relatively close. If one leaked heat and the heater ran more, then that would drive up costs.
I still submit that this sales person was stretching when she claimed that the difference would be as significant as she wanted her potential client to believe.
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The pump draw is one component of cost. If the one tub has pumps that draw less current while they are in operation, then the spa will use less power IF the pumps don't run any longer for some reason.
Power consumption is the amount of amps. drawn over a period of time.
I's speculat that the heater would impact the cost just as much if not more. Again it's a matter of power draw over a period of time. If they both have 5K heaters, and they hold heat in so they run about the same, then heating costs would be equal, or relatively close. If one leaked heat and the heater ran more, then that would drive up costs.
I still submit that this sales person was stretching when she claimed that the difference would be as significant as she wanted her potential client to believe.
The amount of water to heat would impact costs as well.
As far as maitining the water temp, In addition to climate conditions, I would think the Surface area would play a part? A tub with a larger water surface would cool quicker, (and therefore call to heat more). One tub having an air blower would draw more when running, as well as cool the water too, no?
I don't think it would be significant.
This is something I'll be montitoring with my new tub.
The differences between my existing Caspian and the new Geneva are:
an additional .5 hp
an addtional 155 gallons water
an addtionall 7.25 sq ' of surface area
an addtional 300 watts on the heater.
addtioan of air blower
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Just a thought if you are really concerned about saving money on your electric bill. Look at other applicances, lights, refrigerators, etc in your house before you get the spa. I bought a little monitor called Kill-a-watt so I can check the power consumption of all my plug in appliances. Here is what I found. I can save almost $8.00 per month by turning off my computer, printer, router, modem, when I am at work during the day. My TV and stereo,dvd player, playstation cost around $4.00 when they are not even turned on. Right there I save $12.00 a month by turning these items off when they are not in use. And I have really cheap electric rates. 9 cents per kwh isn't very bad. If it was 30 cents per kwh like some in california I would be saving a heck of a lot more than $12.00 per month.
That $12.00 a month might not sound like a lot but if my vanguard only costs me $30 a month to run than saving $12.00 will make the hottubs impact on my bill a lot less noticable.
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Dos it make senses that the Optima operating costs would be that much higher? She seemed to be pushing the Hot Spring more than the Sudance. She mentioned that Vanguard winter operting costs here in New England would be about $45 a month compared to as much as $90 or $100 on the Optima. As always, your thoughts would be appreciated.
Seems to me that she has had a little to much of that H.S. Kool Aid ::)
Chris H made a post that was dead on. With the stronger motors and an extra air blower you will have a higher electric bill with the optima but my guess would be no more than a $10.00 per month differance
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Agreeing with the above. Vanguard should cost less to operate. How much less hard to say.
JohnD's post left out critcal factors:
What is the cost of kwh?
How does the cost convert to US $?
Cost of hydro here in Ontario 5.9 cents per kwh Canadian or 4.9 cents per kwh converted to US $
$36.00 Canadian is about $30.00 US.
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It will be higher, but shouldn't be much more so than a Vanguard to a Grandee. I think the Optima would run even a little bit higher than the Grandee, but a negligible amount. They're both great tubs- go with the one you feel you deserve.
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Thanks for all the info. I ended up buying the Vanguard as it was $1,300 less than the Optima with lower operating costs. Hopefully I will be happy with New England Spas. Now I need to figure out when I should take delivery as the ground is pretty soggy right now. It will be going in the backyard on a concrete patio I had poured last summer.
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brnelson, good luck with your purchase. The Vanguard and Optima are fine tubs. Just be thankful you don't live in Southern California. I pay around .30 per kWh for my spa usage.
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Gombo, whine whine. Most of us you would love to live there- Always blue sky, 75-85 degrees, no sweaters for the womens to hide behind, big bass, catfish, and trout lakes close by that don't freeze over, winter skiing in the san bernadino mountians, beach after beach after beach to choose from, mexican border, jump on a long-range fishing boat heading for the baja..........Please. 8-)
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Congrats on the decision. ;D Enjoy. :D
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Thanks for all the info. I ended up buying the Vanguard as it was $1,300 less than the Optima with lower operating costs. Hopefully I will be happy with New England Spas. Now I need to figure out when I should take delivery as the ground is pretty soggy right now. It will be going in the backyard on a concrete patio I had poured last summer.
I delt with New England Spas (Auburn MA) and was happy. Discuss with them 1) who is installing the cover lifter, is the 03 unit pre installed or will it be installed post delivery?
As far as delivery, NEspas uses VERY large trucks to delivery thier tubs. They may not have to drive on your sod/lawn and can crane it over the house. If you have a gravel or dirt driveway though, I'd wait for the ground to firm up.
(http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j61/GodlikeMoron/fronttub.jpg)
(http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j61/GodlikeMoron/backtub.jpg)
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Drewstar:
Who usually installs the cover lifter? I assumed it was NE Spas.
What is the 03 unit?
I didn't realize that they used such large trucks. We have an asphalt drive-way and they can probably go right over the house as below. That would be great!
Should I have the electric work done prior to delivery? Right next to where the hot tub is going, I have an electric outlet from where the old pool was plugged in. The wires for the electric outlet are in conduit and buried up to the house where it enters and is connected in the basement to the electrical box. Hopefully the electrician can use some of this set-up to do whatever he needs to do.
Thanks,
Bruce
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(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/congratulation.jpg)
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03 is ozone.
I can't imagine the dealer would not install the lifter.
The ozone is facory installed.
Is the crane part of their rig, or was it extra?
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Drewstar:
Who usually installs the cover lifter? I assumed it was NE Spas.
What is the 03 unit?
I didn't realize that they used such large trucks. We have an asphalt drive-way and they can probably go right over the house as below. That would be great!
Should I have the electric work done prior to delivery? Right next to where the hot tub is going, I have an electric outlet from where the old pool was plugged in. The wires for the electric outlet are in conduit and buried up to the house where it enters and is connected in the basement to the electrical box. Hopefully the electrician can use some of this set-up to do whatever he needs to do.
Thanks,
Bruce
Hi Bruce.
I had to install my own lifter. Not a big deal, as little projects like that are fun. however, i I could see how that if you screw it up, it's your own fault. Thnking back on it, I'd have them do it. (and honestly should be installed for free).
HS spas come with the sub panel box and breakers (this is a good thing).Talk to them about this. They can send it out to you prior to getting the tub and the electrician can at least run the power to the sub panel box. Once the tub is in place he can run the electrical from the box to your tub. However, if you are planning on running the electrical underground, you may want to go over this with the electrician. My tub is pretty close to the sub panel box and I just ran what is called a "pigs tail" this is the wire from the sub panel box wrapped up in a weatherproof sheath called "sealtite". Think big fat electrical cord hardwired to the tub. It's about 1" diam.
You will need 240 volts. (I bet the pool outlet is 120). Talk with an electrician.
The 03 unit is the Ozinator. The aria comes standard with it. On my Tiger river it was optional, and was installed a week after the tub was delivered. Not a big deal, but it was something I didn't realize when I purchased my tub.
The trucks are big. Avoid having them on your asphalt on hot days. Trust me on this. ::)
Your dealer should walk you through all this.
Ilike the folks at NEspas, and I like the tub, however heres what I didn't like:
They have a third party delivered the spa. not the dealer. PAyment was due in full prior to delivery... dealer showed up a week later to give me an orientation. Thanks to Chas, and others on this site, I got my questions answered. These guys put the spa in place like pros, but as far as the tub? fogataboutit. Once the spa is in place, the delivery guys drove away.
I had to install the lifter. I had to put togethor the steps, I had to unwrap the spa and was left with all the packing materials. Now that i look back on it, thier delivery was pretty poor. I beive they may have changed a few things, and now that I am a bit wiser, expect the dealer to do all of the above and be there when the tub is delivered.
What store are you dealing with?
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Hottubdan:
I need to talk to NE Spas about the crane. I didn't know this was available and I am not sure if it costs extra.
Drewstar:
I bought from the Auburn store, about 30 miles from me.
Bruce
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Hottubdan:
I need to talk to NE Spas about the crane. I didn't know this was available and I am not sure if it costs extra.
Drewstar:
I bought from the Auburn store, about 30 miles from me.
Bruce
Deal with Denise O. She's a good egg, tell her Andy says "hi". 8-)
I'm in Boylston, where U at? ;)
I bought mine in 05 and was told the crane was standard and included with the purchase. IT was cool, but a bit overkill. ;)
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I'm in northwest RI, a little town called Chepachet. I also bought from Denise. There is actually a HS dealer in RI, Pool Source in Cranston. It was a few hundred more expensive than NE Spas but I think even if it was a few hundred cheaper I still would have bought from NE Spas. Denise is a pretty good saleslady. I'll mention you to her.
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I hope you bought it from Carefree Spas in Tere Haute. You'll find they are far superior in their service department than the other guy down on Pendleton Pike.
I will be installing a 2006 Vanguard this spring in Indianapolis. I am hoping it will cost less than $30 per month to operate. I pay around 9 cents per kwh. My wife doesn't like the water super hot so we will probably keep it around 101. I plan on monitoring my electric bills pretty closely the first couple months to be able to track how much my bill increases.
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One of the best comments I'v seen on here. I dont know how many times I've been in a sales dog fight where the sustomer is comparing a smaller spa with fewer pumps for less money than I'm offering.
If you want a better comparison to the Optima, you would need to be comparing the Grandee.
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Actually bought mine from Hotsprings west on Rockville Rd in Avon. Only live about 5 miles away from that store.
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Same owner as the Pendleton Pike Store. You should call the guys in T.H. and see what they can do for you. Carefree has 3 stores around Indy one on the Pike one in Fishers on 96th St. and the other in T.H., service is impecable from Carefree.
Actually bought mine from Hotsprings west on Rockville Rd in Avon. Only live about 5 miles away from that store.
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Well I've already got the spa paid off so no use going to another dealer now. I haven't heard anything negative about the hotsprings dealer in Avon. http://www.hotspringspasindy.com/ is the dealer I bought from. They have 3 stores around Indy and have been in business for 22 years so I'm not too worried about service.
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Ilike the folks at NEspas, and I like the tub, however heres what I didn't like:
They have a third party delivered the spa. not the dealer. PAyment was due in full prior to delivery... dealer showed up a week later to give me an orientation. Thanks to Chas, and others on this site, I got my questions answered. These guys put the spa in place like pros, but as far as the tub? fogataboutit. Once the spa is in place, the delivery guys drove away.
I had to install the lifter. I had to put togethor the steps, I had to unwrap the spa and was left with all the packing materials. Now that i look back on it, thier delivery was pretty poor. I beive they may have changed a few things, and now that I am a bit wiser, expect the dealer to do all of the above and be there when the tub is delivered.
Thanks for the heads up - regardless what store I buy my spa from. I assumed that delivery included complete install and install of accessories, removal of packing materials, etc. I will make sure to negotiate upfront.
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If anyone is curious it cost an additional $250 for delivery via crane.
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If anyone is curious it cost an additional $250 for delivery via crane.
When I purchased my spa, Titan moved all their spas so there was no option and they use it as a sales tool to make it seem like you're getting a better deal. They listed the price as $400, but it really didn't mean much because they just negotiated it out when they made their first offer. Now I understand that they are moving too many spas for Titan to keep up so they are delivering some with a trailer and dolly. This may change how they present the spa delivery.
FWIW, my experience with the crane delivery was a very good one. Spa was placed perfectly and unwrapped. They boxed all the rubbish but didn't take it with them. I installed my own cover lifter, but they would normally do it when the sales person would come for orientation and to add ozone, etc. I preferred to do it myself only because I trust my own installation more than someone elses.
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Were you happy with the Vanguard?
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Well then, if the sales lady said so, it was intended to influence your decision.
In your opinion, which is more costly to own and operate, a Cadillac, or a Lincoln.
Do the math and you will find your answer. Volts x Amps = Watts, 1,000 watts = 1 kW, which is the unit measurement in your electric bill that determines the cost you pay for electric.
In as much as both are very good decisions, they are different, they operate similarly, so take your circulation pump operation, which is variable and determined by the user, add to that the amount of time you run you other pumps, do the math and add it all up. As for the heat, they are both comparable in heat retention, so focus on the function operations. You will not find the difference between the two to be as much as suggested.