Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: stuart on February 20, 2007, 11:57:09 am
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I took a quote from a post that Vanguard did on another subject because this is a subject that I’m questioning myself and would like everyone’s input
That is correct; the new "Certified" rating is based off independent research and customer satisfaction. This really is the first true independent rating. This one cannot be bought.
So what your saying is the ratings cannot be skewed? I've been part of Spasearch pretty much from the beginning and I have always questioned how the ratings were done even though my brands always make it in the top.
I'm currently waiting today or tomorrow to run some of these questions by the founder of the program....
When they say this is a customer rating where did the customers come from?
Did they ask the manufactures for dealers and the dealers for customers?
If I'm a dealer do I give just customers that I know will give a good rating?
Were the customers people that submitted their info through spasearch to get a magazine and then bought a spa? If so have they even been delivered and have they had the spa long enough to know if it’s good? So is the rating then on ownership of these spas or shopping experience?
Are the customers counted by sheer #'s or by percentage of satisfied customers to spas sold by that manufacture?
Would most manufactures really give an outside source a true number of spas sold?
IMO, if you sent out a general questionnaire to spa owners you would find that just about everyone likes their spa. That being said I would further say that the concept of the magazine is by numbers of people responding by the brands rated. Those people are, most commonly, from the more intensely sold brands so they are more attached to the purchase than many others and would be more likely to respond.
It's a confusing thing...Here is an example;
Do you think after the rebate program and fake homeshow scams Master Spa used to sell the majority of their spas you would have more customers speaking favorably about them than many other brands?
I’m not saying that the ratings are wrong or “fixed”…I’m questioning the process used to derive what they are deeming as fact? We all should question these things yet we draw the battle lines and everyone rated defends while everyone not rated accuses and often it's falsely without fact (on both sides). Lets try and get to some fact and if it isn’t a real rating than lets stop supporting it.
Knowing the editor of spasearch I want to ask the questions rather than assume it’s all about the money. He seems to truly believe in the process used but I’m sure that there is a certain point where you have to look the best way to make the program profitable to publish and the more companies you exclude from the best rating the less of them support and buy the ads and magazines.
As industry pro's lets try to not just be myopic about our owns brands position but rather how the rating really works!
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Like I said in the other thread, I'm skeptical that an organization that used to sell their "ratings" just like any other advertising, and published them in a manner that misled unsuspecting consumers, has suddenly found independence. Even if their intentions are pure, they have a long way to go to gain credibility.
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Well, I'm less skeptical as my thoughts are there hasn't really been a way to truely rate spas before. There may still not be a way, but this "seems" a bit better".
There's a similar type of rating program in my area for businesses. The way they work is that the rating company comes INTO your business and pulls names out of your files. It's a bit more difficult to "stuff the ballot box" this way.
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I took a quote from a post that Vanguard did on another subject because this is a subject that I’m questioning myself and would like everyone’s input
I can only provide information relevant to our company, but perhaps it will help.
So what your saying is the ratings cannot be skewed?
I think you mean manipulated; it may be possible but IMO it is unlikely
I'm currently waiting today or tomorrow to run some of these questions by the founder of the program....
We'll look forward to hearing David Woods' comments!
When they say this is a customer rating where did the customers come from?
Arctic used a newsletter subscriber list. Since this is an open newsletter to which anyone in the world can subscribe, the list likely included customers both satisfied and unsatisfied, prospects, and interested parties such as competitors. Dealers were removed from the list for obvious reasons. While it hardly represents our entire customer base, it was a broad sample that we felt was both representative and random.
The manufacturers did not contact the customers nor did we deal with the responses; it was strictly third-party. After the survey, we received a statistical analysis of the responses of our customers and a comparison of our scores to the average/high/low among the first 10 manufacturers to apply (of whom only 8 received certification)
Did they ask the manufacturers for dealers and the dealers for customers?
Not in our case.
If I'm a dealer do I give just customers that I know will give a good rating?
This was probably possible if someone were willing to go to that much work.
Were the customers people that submitted their info through spasearch to get a magazine and then bought a spa?
I have no way have knowing, but in our case that was extremely unlikely!
If so have they even been delivered and have they had the spa long enough to know if it’s good? So is the rating then on ownership of these spas or shopping experience?
Good question. In our case, we asked a supplementary survey question about how long the respondent had owned their Arctic spa. This question was for our information only and was not part of the certification process. Over a third of our respondents had owned their spa for up to a year, just under a third have owned for two years, about 16% three years or more, the rest undetermined. As you point out elsewhere, this skew may just be due to newer owners being more apt to respond to the survey.
Are the customers counted by sheer #'s or by percentage of satisfied customers to spas sold by that manufacture?
Neither. There was a rating system that emphasized extreme (high or low) responses in order to spread out the scores. You can probably find details on the spasearch site.
Would most manufactures really give an outside source a true number of spas sold?
Hmm, I think what you're asking is whether the rating accurately compares a company that sells 10,000 units annually with one that sells 100,000 units a year. IMO, the rating method correctly treated this as irrelevant.
IMO, if you sent out a general questionnaire to spa owners you would find that just about everyone likes their spa.
Probably true, and a wonderful thing, too!
I would further say that the concept of the magazine is by numbers of people responding by the brands rated.
The statistical analysis was more sophisticated than that.
Those people are, most commonly, from the more intensely sold brands so they are more attached to the purchase than many others and would be more likely to respond.
An insightful comment. Any survey suffers from this same inherent bias because it is based only on the people who are willing to respond.
I’m not saying that the ratings are wrong or “fixed”…I’m questioning the process used to derive what they are deeming as fact? We all should question these things...
Fair enough.
I’m sure that there is a certain point where you have to look the best way to make the program profitable to publish and the more companies you exclude from the best rating the less of them support and buy the ads and magazines.
You've kind of proved your own point! The stated purpose of the program was to identify the top 10% of manufacturers. This means there will be some 13 to 15 who qualify in the end. Will the others boycott the magazine/site and move their advertising $$ elsewhere? Let's ask this question: Can they afford NOT to advertise in a major consumer market?
If you've received the most recent Spasearch magazine, you'll note the pull-out ballot. This is evidently an ongoing survey.
As industry pro's lets try to not just be myopic about our owns brands position but rather how the rating really works!
Okay, you've got my input. The spasearch program may not be perfect but I think it's a step in the right direction.
Tom
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Tom,
Thanks for your input!
You are correct, I did mean "Manipulated" and there is no doubt in any reasonable person's mind that it is possible, as far as it being "unlikely" that's what we should be trying to determine!
So this "newsletter subscriber letter" you refer to that you used...was that how spasearch received your customer info?
Was it your companies newsletter or did it come from spasearch?
Do you have a copy of it online that you could share with us?
Did Arctic control the output and input of the survey in any way?
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Was it your companies newsletter or did it come from spasearch? Do you have a copy of it online that you could share with us?
It's ours, and you can subscribe or see past issues on our web site at http://www.arcticspas.com/index.php/en/show_content/68/68/
Did Arctic control the output and input of the survey in any way?
Our only input was in providing an emailing list for the survey (as well as all the documentation required for the other part of the certification - proof of membership in the BBB, the Pool & Hot Tub Council of Canada, all that). As I mentioned, we also removed dealer store email addresses from the survey list, thinking that only fair. Individual store owners and sales people who had a subscription in their own names were left. The survey was administered and the results analyzed neither by us nor by spasearch; a third party company was used in each case.
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Tom, do you know what percentage of this this was contacted?
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Tom gave great answers.
From what I understand, the lists of customers were to be random. I spoke with my new buddy the Hot Spring rep and asked him about it. He said he wasn't exactly sure how Watkins created the list, but knows the list was random. There was a check in place to make sure the list wasn't doctored. It would have been very easy for Watkins to doctor the list, but he said it was totally random.
That is why this certification holds more value than others. The survey was independent, the customer lists are random.
I do suppose some less reputable brands could still try to doctor, but I have a feeling they'd get found out. As everyone knows, Haven Spas will probably be "Certified" soon because they are above board and have "great" customer service. ;D ;D
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Still haven't been able to talk with David, I should talk with him today and I will let you know the outcome.
I'm very interested in ownership longivity although I'm not sure many of the companies rated where making spas the same for longer than 6 to 7 years.
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Tom, do you know what percentage of this was contacted?
That information is not available to me at this time. All I know is that we met or exceeded the minimum required number of respondents. I would assume that the minimum was set to ensure a pre-determined level of statistical accuracy.
A certain percentage of the list would be incorrect email addresses. Of those contacted, only a small fraction would reply (I believe that typical surveys consider 10% a good response rate).
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Tom,
You are correct, I did mean "Manipulated" and there is no doubt in any reasonable person's mind that it is possible, as far as it being "unlikely" that's what we should be trying to determine!
You'll want to consider the motivation and the cost/benefit ratio. Would the marketing value of the certification be worth the costs involved in manipulating the results? I consider it highly unlikely.
In 2004, Arctic ran a six-month Customer Service follow-up program where we telephoned new Arctic Spa purchasers (as many as we could reach) to ask about the quality of the sales and delivery processes using a structured interview format. We did this in order to evaluate dealer performance and determine what improvements could be made to our sales and technical training. This program was time-consuming and costly, obviously thorough, and of great benefit.
The spasearch survey gave us an ideal chance for a two-year follow-up to our original project. The spasearch questions were similar to those used in our phone interviews. It might answer questions about our progress and the results of changes to our dealer training -- all done by a third party at reasonable cost to us. We leapt at the chance. And since we wanted honest answers, we did our best to provide honest information.
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stuart, would I be correct in assuming that 1 particular manufacturer that made the list, has your feathers in an uproar (I'm just curious)?
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stuart, would I be correct in assuming that 1 particular manufacturer that made the list, has your feathers in an uproar (I'm just curious)?
Well to be honest I had a pretty good idea of how they did the ratings up until the new rating came out. Know the service history on Master spas and on Jacuzzi I have strong doubts that they would either one get such a high rating.
Mind you, Jacuzzi probably has a much higher rating than Master and for the most part everything Master does for marketing is a bit suspect.
I also question whether some of the spas rated at the top have maintained any consistency in manufacturing long enough to be viable.
Although it really doesn’t matter my opinion of any of them but rather that I have to question them because of my experience and knowledge of industry history. I can’t be the only one that questions.
I also have a problem using anything as a sales tool that doesn’t have a extreme level of validity.
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(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/wordstuword.jpg)
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Sooo let me ask this in a different light....
The magazine eludes to the fact that Master, Jacuzzi, Arctic, D1, Marquis, Sundance, HotSpring and Caldera are all equivalent and the rest of the brands are not quite as good.
Do most of you agree with this?
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Sooo let me ask this in a different light....
The magazine eludes to the fact that Master, Jacuzzi, Arctic, D1, Marquis, Sundance, HotSpring and Caldera are all equivalent and the rest of the brands are not quite as good.
Do most of you agree with this?
If I'm going to the correct site it says they are all certified. What will the average consumer think of this? I guess I would expect that the average consumer will see it as all having met a certain criteria and many would porbably then assume they are on a similar playing field. I would hope they would not treat that as the bible and hopefully would come to sites like this to converse with other spa owners, check out reviews here and on Doc's site, get to know their dealers, etc.
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I would hope they would not treat that as the bible and hopefully would come to sites like this to converse with other spa owners, check out reviews here and on Doc's site, get to know their dealers, etc.
I will promise most salesman sell it as "bible"
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If the salespeople are smart, they wouldn't even bring up the site. If the customer hasn't brought it up themselves, why let them know about other "certified" brands. This would just give them more brands to shop.
Personally, I'd use this on a as needed basis - when the customer brings it up. The fewer brands I would have to compete with, the better.
While it is nice to see something more independent, this seems to only address customer satisfaction. I may be wrong about that. I don't know that it addresses repair histories, warranty issues, and overall quality of the spa. The fact that Master made Certified is dubious to me. How many of those rebate customers were on the survey???
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I would never use this additional accolade to sell my product. I spend my whole presentation showing customers how DIFFERENT my product is from everything else on the market. The last thing I want is to be lumped in with those other companies that have earned this honor. The exclusive features that HotSpring has (100% No-Bypass Filtration, MotoMassage and MotoMassage DX, Soothing Seven Jets, Tri-X Filters, AutoFresh System, etc) are what appeals to people when they come in here after looking at all of the cookie cutter spas being sold.
There is only one award that really catches the consumers eye when they are in my store:
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/NSFHotSpring-1.jpg)
Water cleanliness and safety are of the utmost concern to most shoppers. The NSF certification is a prestigious award indeed...and very exclusive, thus far.
Terminator
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So are you HS guys saying that these other brands arn't equivalent to HS? Does that mean that your questioning the validity of the magazine? :-?
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Yes and yes, for my part. I only speak for myself and not others.
Let me amend by saying I don't necessarily question the validity of the magazine's effort at impartiality, I question the need for it in any capacity outside of generating interest in the magazine and it's advertisers.
Terminator
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Sooo let me ask this in a different light....
The magazine eludes to the fact that Master, Jacuzzi, Arctic, D1, Marquis, Sundance, HotSpring and Caldera are all equivalent and the rest of the brands are not quite as good.
Do most of you agree with this?
Phrased that way, and I couldn't have said it better, the ratings then become a pile of (insert type of animale here) cr@p.
This was one (of many) of my original complaints when initially talking to them about getting "certified". I know more than one manufacturer, that may make as good a product, maybe even better, and perhaps have better service, than what they will rate as "top brand". My recollection is the cost of the "survey" was in the $4000 range. Not necessarily a bad marketing investment for a company making 12,000 to 40,000 spas a year. But, for a company making 300 - 1000 spas a year? I also recall they wanted to send the questioner to something like 3000 past customers?
stuart, we all know this is really just another marketing gimmick. Unfortunately, there are a LOT of customers that not only WANT something like this, but they want it so much, they'll insist on believing it. How many times have you seen people argue over that "other" web sites ratings? I've seen potential customers almost give up on shopping for a spa when they've found out the truth.
The spa market is probably one of the most competitive there is. If you consider the average store sells 10 spas a month, losing one sale can be a considerable amount on the months receipts. There's almost too many brands which may make some salesmen slide too far towards the dark side of sales (feel free to translate that to your liking, I'm trying to be polite).
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Doc my friend, thank you for getting the point!!!! ;D 8-) :P
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stuart, we all know this is really just another marketing gimmick.
That sentence sums it all up really. I've said it a million times...this entire industry is marketing. I'm mean, look at Terms entire post...based soley on marketing hype to create sales. ie 100% No-Bypass Filtration, MotoMassage and MotoMassage DX, Soothing Seven Jets, Tri-X Filters, AutoFresh System. If I were him, I'd be doing the same thing cause that's what my rep and the manufacturer said to do right? ::) It's why they were designed for petes sake! So you COULD promote them and stand out from the crowd. Not BETTER than the crowd....different.... I wanna be clear.... :)
It's not just HS. Protec by Beachcomber, Thermal Lock and Forever floor by Arctic, Self Clean by Hydropool, HK40 jets Marquis and the list goes on and on and on and on. Do some of these features have value? Sure they do but at the end of the day, these are arcylic shells that hold water, filter and shoot water through jets. For those that disagree, it's only a matter of determining your level of being brainwashed by your manufacturer... ;) I do agree though that some manufacturers have far better marketing than others and that there's really little difference in QUALITY in the top 15 spa manufacturers in the world.
A unique selling position is nothing unique anymore cause EVERYBODY has one! :D
Steve
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Let me expand a bit on some of your remarks, if I may:
That sentence sums it all up really. I've said it a million times...this entire industry is marketing.
That, and product quality, customer service, innovation, and profitability.
I'm mean, look at Terms entire post...based soley on marketing hype to create sales. ie 100% No-Bypass Filtration, MotoMassage and MotoMassage DX, Soothing Seven Jets, Tri-X Filters, AutoFresh System. If I were him, I'd be doing the same thing cause that's what my rep and the manufacturer said to do right? ::)
I agree up until the last sentence where the difference between my mindset and yours becomes apparent: I am my own man....I do what I do the way I do it because it helps me to sell spas and feed my family. I have never been giving marching orders by anyone, much less a RSM. He comes by every so often, takes me out to eat, says "keep up the good work", and asks what he can do to help me. Obviously, your experiences are much more controlled and domineering than mine.
It's why they were designed for petes sake! So you COULD promote them and stand out from the crowd. Not BETTER than the crowd....different.... I wanna be clear.... :)
Some of them ARE better than others. That decision lies with the CUSTOMER.
It's not just HS. Protec by Beachcomber, Thermal Lock and Forever floor by Arctic, Self Clean by Hydropool, HK40 jets Marquis and the list goes on and on and on and on. Do some of these features have value? Sure they do but at the end of the day, these are arcylic shells that hold water, filter and shoot water through jets. For those that disagree, it's only a matter of determining your level of being brainwashed by your manufacturer... ;)
Yes, some of these features have more value than others. Yes, they are boxes of water. Some boxes are better, some shells are better, some filtration systems are definitely better, and some jets are definitely better than other brands.
I do agree though that some manufacturers have far better marketing than others and that there's really little difference in QUALITY in the top 15 spa manufacturers in the world.
That's your opinion. My opinion is that HotSpring is the absolute best spa in the industry. Whether you or anyone else who works in a competing capacity thinks so is irrelevant to me. My job is to show the CUSTOMER how much better my spa is than any other brand. For some, they believe another brand is better for whatever reason. That's fine, it's their money. A great many of the people who walk through my door DO believe that they are buying the greatest spa in the world. I'm happy...but more importantly, THEY are happy.
A unique selling position is nothing unique anymore cause EVERYBODY has one! :D
As they should. If you don't think your brand of spa is the best spa made, then don't sell it. I wonder about the ethics of salesmen who change brands so frequently, makes me question whether or not they truly believe in their product or are just looking to make a fast buck. But please, don't try to tell me "we're all the same". We're not, and for that I am exceedingly grateful. :)
Terminator
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Term and Steve,
I agree with both of you to a point...
You see as a dealer that puts his home, his integrity, his family’s welfare and his entire life relationships on the line everyday I can't be myopic to a brand or a product because of some study, some marketing hype or even because it sells better.
On Monday I will be 46 years old and then next 40 years matter much more than the last 40 years in what I do and say. I cannot live everyday like I did in my younger years. Everything that I do makes a difference in the quality of life I will live in my later years and in the legacy I leave for my children.
I own less than I could, sell less than I could, make less money than I can simply because I take a stand every day on many things that make my life harder yet better. In the last few weeks I've been offered a partnership with a multimillion dollar corporation that could change the course of my company, give me more options, make me more money and even give me a bit more time. The problem is this; they simply haven't proved to me that their products provide a benefit to my customers over the ones I currently have!
I've told them those products either need to offer a better price point or better quality but I will not sell them on my floor solely because they will make me more money. That would mean that I would have to "create" a story or hype to sell something that I know is not as good.
As far as your product Term, I've been there.... I said before that when I left HS world I thought I was done in the industry if I couldn't sell them. After researching a bit I found that there where several products that where just as good if not better. The thing that made HS so good wasn't that their product was any better than others but the fact that their company was better than most at marketing and customer service both to the dealer and the customer.
I admire your resolve and hope that my salesmen have the same about the products we sell but not to the point that they don't test and prove every one of those products personally all of the time.
None of the vendors I deal with will tell you it’s easy to have me as a dealer…I challenge them every day to be better. When I have product failures that create hardship for my customers I yell. When I see something that won’t last I challenge it all the way up the line until I get results.
When the California Electric Code came out with the appliance rating on spas I loved the idea but challenged it much like I have this spasearch program. The products I sell made all the requirements right up front so I could have dropped it there and just used it as marketing but I disagreed with some of the numbers in on the test ratios.
There were manufactures with the exact same covers and components that had different “R” values on them so I called Jim Holland of the CEC (the guy in charge of the program) and questioned this. I still have the email from him telling me that they were going to back off after my challenges because of their lack of ability to police the program at the manufacture level.
When we had motors overheating on Marquis a couple of years ago I complained to the point that the national service manager flew in and spent the day late into the night with me testing motors with a laser getting to the bottom of that problem.
Use the marketing but prove it yourself, sell the product based on full experience not on what the sales trainer tells you. It’s a fact that 80% of the people that sell spas don’t even own one! So do they know the product as well as they think?
I sold the Frog system differently after using it at home then I did when I had it in use in my store. In fact, it took several calls to Scott at King technologies before I finally believed it a benefit to customers. I never questioned the benefit to aftermarket sales for me!
Again, do you think that by spasearch giving these brands the same rating they are equal in quality? I don’t but because of this rating customers do…..
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The magazine alludes to the fact that Master, Jacuzzi, Arctic, D1, Marquis, Sundance, HotSpring and Caldera are all equivalent and the rest of the brands are not quite as good. Do most of you agree with this?
Not entirely. The certification means that those eight manufacturers have met specified standards of business stability and customer satisfaction. It does NOT mean that the certified brands are equivalent. However, the Certification does disguise the differences and hides them from the consumer. Brand A squeaked past the minimum standard and scored 85.01 on Overall Score. Brand B got the highest score, 98.5. You can't tell which brand is which; both are Certified.
The Approved rating means that the manufacturers were able to meet a lower acceptable standard. The standards for Approval still indicate a good product with good value. Brand C got the worst Overall Score of 76.13, and did not meet the minimum standard for certification. It was not Certified. But its customers rated it okay, so it met the second standards, and was Approved. That can indeed be taken to mean that Brand C is "not quite as good", but Brand C can still represent an excellent value for the price. (This may be worth a separate thread.)
While the discussion in the thread is interesting, it is my impression that some posters are not familiar with the details of the program. AFAIK the information is available on the spasearch site or from the program director.
FYI, the customer survey addressed overall satisfaction (as someone pointed out, most people are satisfied with their spas) and willingness to recommend; the appearance, quality, reliability, comfort, ease of use, and value of the product; the knowledge and professionalism of the sales staff; and the installation process.
The central question IMO is not whether it is a marketing tool but whether or not it will be of any benefit or guidance to consumers. While it is not as helpful as a Consumer Reports test would be, I think it has some value.
- Is it objective? Yes, it is. An objective assessment carried out by a third party is something the industry has needed and is of value to consumers.
- Is it based on customer reports? Yes, just as is the case for at least part of a Consumer Reports assessment. If one brand is certified and another was not, remember that their customers decided that. And shoppers want to know what other spa owners have to say -- it's one reason they come to the forum.
- Does it help consumers discriminate between brands? Probably not, though it will help narrow the field. And since many shoppers are bewildered by the variety of models and brands, perhaps this guidance is helpful.
- Will it help consumers identify the top brands? Steve points out that "there's really little difference in QUALITY in the top 15 spa manufacturers" (I respectfully disagree, Arctic's best! ;D) and perhaps the Certification will help the customers identify that top 15. Remember, the program is in its first year and not all applications have been processed yet.
- Does it, as Term said, address issues of "product quality, customer service, innovation"? I believe that it does. If your customers aren't satisfied with your product or service, you wont be Certified, and rightly so. And shouldn't prospective buyers be able to know that?
Now, excuse me while I put on a flak jacket before I click Post... ;)
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Again, do you think that by spasearch giving these brands the same rating they are equal in quality? I don’t but because of this rating customers do…..
No sir, I do not believe that the brands listed are equal. I would imagine some customers place emphasis on the ratings, but I believe the number of people that have ever been to that (or any other spa forum) is so infitesimally small compared to the people that physically walk through our doors that it is really a moot point in the grand scheme of the spa industry.
I understand your sentiments, but I feel it has little bearing in my company's little place in the world. I have had 2 people over the years mention spa ratings: one man bought a Gulf Coast because he said it was rated the same as a HotSpring. The other person (his co-worker) bought a Vanguard. The Vanguard's still running, the other has been broken for the last year and a half.
Terminator
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Ya know, I gotta tell you, an 85% satisfactory rating, in my opinion, SUCKS. I wouldn't buy a product that 15% of owners are unhappy with.
" While it is not as helpful as a Consumer Reports test would be, I think it has some value."
To compare it to Consumers Reports is nothing less than a joke. Consumers Reports does NOT charge manufacturers thousands of dollars to be rated. Consumers Reports does NOT leave out the majority of manufacturers of a product. Consumers Reports DOES report the companies that DON'T meet the "grade". Consumers Reports DOES give a breakdown of how/why a company meets/doesn't meet their criteria
Is it objective?
Yes it is. to the few companies that choose to participate.
Is it of value to the consumer?
Yes it is. But only in the fact that by narrowing their choices it might make the purchasing decision easier for them
Is it fair to the consumer?
ABSOLUTELY NOT. Many consumers may remove a brand of spa from their list simply because it's not "approved". This is what I see as the biggest disservice to the consumer
"If one brand is certified and another was not, remember that their customers decided that."
ONLY IF THE BRAND CHOSE TO BE RATED AND PAID FOR THE SURVEY. For there to be ANY validity to the "ratings" this needs to be CLEARLY stated right at the top. AND, companies that fail to get rated ALSO need to be disclosed. (I'm starting to feel like you stuart :-) )
"If your customers aren't satisfied with your product or service, you wont be Certified, and rightly so. And shouldn't prospective buyers be able to know that?"
Again, unless EVERY spa manufacturer is rated, and at NO FEE to them, this rating system is nothing more than a marketing ploy for manufacturers, and an income generator for the magazine. By not listing the manufacturers that failed the "test", and not listing all the other manufacturer that were never rated (including a lengthy explanation on why they may not have participated and assurances that this is no way means there's anything wrong, or potentially wrong with these companies), this is nothing but a disservice to consumers.
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Tom,
Your or my understanding of the rating or the magazine is of little consequence, what matters is the perspective customer’s opinion. I believe is narrows their search through inaccurate manipulation of perceived authority.
If you believe as you stated that "it is my impression that some posters are not familiar with the details of the program." the do you really believe the customers will understand the details of the program? Or for that matter take the time to research the magazine as much as they are the spas?
It's my belief that your perspective of Arctic's position in the industry for quality and longevity is based on your dealings with that one product....Do you have industry experience with other brands? Have you spent any time at one of your dealers that service multiple brands going out on service calls and interviewing them? Perhaps you've tried and wet tested multiple other brands in comparison? If not you should do these things to justify your position otherwise your duties at Arctic can be considered another "marketing ploy" and all about the politics.
Again I state that Arctic, like so many other brands, has not made the product consistently long enough to warrant the rating with some of the other companies by you or spasearch. To like what you see and defend your beliefs is fine, to then push those beliefs on others that are doing more research (i.e. shoppers) is not.
Explain your product and let them compare but don't comment on whether your foam, your siding, your equipment and your manufacturing process is better unless you can prove that!
Term,
Your existence on this forum changes the aspect of your comment “My company's little place in the world” by the sheer fact that you are posting on a national level claims that you don’t have to verify.
We have between 30 and 40 brands sold in a 30-mile radius! The average customer shops 5 to 6 of them before buying! We are second to Silicon Valley for households shopping online and the last time I heard we were in the top two states for #’s of CEO’s. I think you would admit that our lifestyle is a bit faster paced than your “little place in the world” which lends to a customer that tends to get as much input as quickly as possible. That info needs to be correct or do damage.
You asked me once why I stopped selling HS and I wasn’t ignoring you but if I got into that battle it would start quite a stir among many of the Watkins folks and would not be beneficial to you I’m still considering the best way to answer that without creating strife for you.
My goal is not to attack the other brands rated “Qualified” on spasearch but rather to question the validity of the research. That is something we should all do…
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Almost forgot...... I've talked to a number of manufacturers regarding that "other" web site that rates spa. The general consensus is that they feel that they have to participate and pay the exorbanant fees.
It's "basic extortion but we have to go along with it to stay competitive in the market place. There's nothing we would like more than for that page to simply go away"
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Term,
Your existence on this forum changes the aspect of your comment “My company's little place in the world” by the sheer fact that you are posting on a national level claims that you don’t have to verify.
What unverifiable claims have I ever posted? I only speak for myself, no one else. I represent East Texas Spa, no other company.
I think you would admit that our lifestyle is a bit faster paced than your “little place in the world” which lends to a customer that tends to get as much input as quickly as possible. That info needs to be correct or do damage.
Yes, there is little competition in this area due to the smaller population and the lack of business acumen demonstrated by some of the other retailers. I believe I am at the forefront (in this virtual community) of promoting truthfulness, acccountability, and ethics for our industry. But, unlike some members, I certainly do not have an inflated opinion of my place in the world....I sell hot tubs, very nice hot tubs at that. Other folks on here sell hot tubs. We aren't curing cancer or halitosis.
You asked me once why I stopped selling HS and I wasn’t ignoring you but if I got into that battle it would start quite a stir among many of the Watkins folks and would not be beneficial to you I’m still considering the best way to answer that without creating strife for you.
How could it create strife for me? Our company, East Texas Spa, has never been involved with you or your company over the course of our 22 years in operation, so I am somewhat befuddled by that statement. If you are referring to some matter of disagreement with Watkins Mfg. that would be best left off the record, I can certainly appreciate your position and sentiments and will simply defer to your judgement and we'll leave it at that. :)
I wanted to add that I do appreciate your concern for my welfare. I am concerned about yours and my other virtual friends on here as well and do not wish ill tidings upon anyone.
Terminator
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What unverifiable claims have I ever posted? I only speak for myself, no one else. I represent East Texas Spa, no other company.
Your taking this as a dealership to dealership comparison...I'm explaining it as people that represent different brands. I use area and local simply to show the effects at local levels
"I spend my whole presentation showing customers how DIFFERENT my product is from everything else on the market. The last thing I want is to be lumped in with those other companies that have earned this honor. The exclusive features that HotSpring has (100% No-Bypass Filtration, MotoMassage and MotoMassage DX, Soothing Seven Jets, Tri-X Filters, AutoFresh System, etc) are what appeals to people when they come in here after looking at all of the cookie cutter spas being sold. "
The direct names you use for jets is good brand recognition however, do you really feel that your shell is that different than D1? How about your Circ pump, control and even heater? Simply saying 100% No-Bypass is better is a claim not proven. The fact is that I saw a lot more water quality issues with HotSpring than I've ever seen with D1. Mostly because people didn't understand the need to turn on the clean cycle every now and then. Is 100% no bypass harder on pumps? Maybe but we would need proof. You can explain why HotSpring does this without claiming it better, let the customer decide. Likewise I can explain why D1 chooses to not bypass filtration system but feels that bypassing a percentage of the pumps on high speed gives us great flow and pump longevity. That's why we do it, not to have a sales advantage!
Don't take me wrong, we all have a tendency to make claims, myself included, but when it is printed as an industry comparison then we're manipulating a customer with marketing.
Yes, there is little competition in this area due to the smaller population and the lack of business acumen demonstrated by some of the other retailers. I believe I am at the forefront (in this virtual community) of promoting truthfulness, acccountability, and ethics for our industry. But, unlike some members, I certainly do not have an inflated opinion of my place in the world....I sell hot tubs, very nice hot tubs at that. Other folks on here sell hot tubs. We aren't curing cancer or halitosis.
I don't disagree and again wasn't attacking you
How could it create strife for me? Our company, East Texas Spa, has never been involved with you or your company over the course of our 22 years in operation, so I am somewhat befuddled by that statement. If you are referring to some matter of disagreement with Watkins Mfg. that would be best left off the record, I can certainly appreciate your position and sentiments and will simply defer to your judgement and we'll leave it at that. :)
Terminator
I should have rephrased that...What I should have said is that I didn't want to create strife with the HS faction on this forum. Again this isn't about you and I or my company vs the one you work for but rather industry marketing.
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Doc,
In all of our long conversations, emails, phone calls and posts I'm always amazed that we can have such different backgrounds, different veiws on so many levels and yet think so much alike! ;D 8-)
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Almost forgot...... I've talked to a number of manufacturers regarding that "other" web site that rates spa. The general consensus is that they feel that they have to participate and pay the exorbanant fees.
It's "basic extortion but we have to go along with it to stay competitive in the market place. There's nothing we would like more than for that page to simply go away"
Now that sounds like the truth if I ever heard it.
This rating is just one magazine owner's method of extorting money from the spa industry.
Somebody needs to take the jackass outside and install a circ pump in his colon!
:o
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Lets see......spasearch real or not? Look no further than here to answer your own question......real or not? trust yourself to be the judge....
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Ya know, I gotta tell you, an 85% satisfactory rating, in my opinion, SUCKS. I wouldn't buy a product that 15% of owners are unhappy with.
It's not a percentage; it's a weighted aggregate score with a highest possible score of 110 and a lowest possible score of -110. Mathematically, the average would be 70. A weighted score of 85 was the criterion for Certification, which I suppose would select about 10% of a population of 150 companies given a fairly normal distribution.
" While it is not as helpful as a Consumer Reports test would be, I think it has some value."
To compare it to Consumers Reports is nothing less than a joke. Consumers Reports does NOT charge manufacturers thousands of dollars to be rated. Consumers Reports does NOT leave out the majority of manufacturers of a product. Consumers Reports DOES report the companies that DON'T meet the "grade". Consumers Reports DOES give a breakdown of how/why a company meets/doesn't meet their criteria
Is it objective?
Yes it is. to the few companies that choose to participate.
Is it of value to the consumer?
Yes it is. But only in the fact that by narrowing their choices it might make the purchasing decision easier for them
Is it fair to the consumer?
ABSOLUTELY NOT. Many consumers may remove a brand of spa from their list simply because it's not "approved". This is what I see as the biggest disservice to the consumer
"If one brand is certified and another was not, remember that their customers decided that."
ONLY IF THE BRAND CHOSE TO BE RATED AND PAID FOR THE SURVEY. For there to be ANY validity to the "ratings" this needs to be CLEARLY stated right at the top. AND, companies that fail to get rated ALSO need to be disclosed.
"If your customers aren't satisfied with your product or service, you wont be Certified, and rightly so. And shouldn't prospective buyers be able to know that?"
Again, unless EVERY spa manufacturer is rated, and at NO FEE to them, this rating system is nothing more than a marketing ploy...
Whooee! Excellent rebuttal! You made some good points, and I'm sure glad I had that jacket on. :o
Why am I reminded of Aesop's tale of the Fox and the Grapes? ;)
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Somebody needs to take the jackass outside and install a circ pump in his colon! :o
Wow - talk about no bypass...
I guess there will always be a demand for this type of rating as long as customers are forced to chose amongst brands. And there will always be folks ready to fill that demand.
8-)
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I believe it [the Spasearch program] narrows their search through inaccurate manipulation of perceived authority.
I disagree on two counts. First, I see no reason to consider the spasearch survey to be in any way inaccurate. It appears to have been properly conducted by reputable agencies using established practices and standards (if you wish to challenge that, please address your challenge to Spasearch. It's their study.) Second, the argument of "manipulation by perceived authority" could be applied to any rating program, even the much-vaunted Consumer Reports.
If you believe as you stated that "it is my impression that some posters are not familiar with the details of the program." the do you really believe the customers will understand the details of the program? Or for that matter take the time to research the magazine as much as they are the spas?
At present, my take on the thread is that it's a technical discussion among industry professionals. I think it's reasonable to expect arguments to accurate and based on fact. So far, it's been IMO one of the best threads in weeks.
Is it necessary for consumers to know the details in order to understand and benefit from the program? No. The real question is whether or not the program WILL benefit the consumer (and therein lies a whole bunch of argument!)
It's my belief that your perspective of Arctic's position in the industry for quality and longevity is based on your dealings with that one product....
Dang, busted!! :D Except for eight years of hot tub ownership with another brand, you are correct. I am a corporate spokesman; it's in my signature; my potential bias and potential limitations are openly admitted and acknowledged. Yup, I ride for the brand!
Again I state that Arctic, like so many other brands, has not made the product consistently long enough....
LOL. Geez, it's been 12 years! Five years as one of Canada's fastest-growing businesses, twice recognized as one of Canada's Best Managed Companies, winner of numerous national and international awards, and one of only eight companies to be Spasearch Certified. ::) I think we've established our bona fides. But we're still a "little brother" of the industry! ;D
My goal is not to attack the other brands rated “Qualified” on spasearch but rather to question the validity of the research. That is something we should all do…
This is a legitimate and worthwhile goal. To keep this short, more later in another post.
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I disagree on two counts. First, I see no reason to consider the spasearch survey to be in any way inaccurate. It appears to have been properly conducted by reputable agencies using established practices and standards (if you wish to challenge that, please address your challenge to Spasearch. It's their study.) Second, the argument of "manipulation by perceived authority" could be applied to any rating program, even the much-vaunted Consumer Reports.
I take the other side and question accuracy of the program until proven....
In no way do I question the ethics of David Woods or his company but rather his industry knowledge and system of judgment.
At present, my take on the thread is that it's a technical discussion among industry professionals. I think it's reasonable to expect arguments to accurate and based on fact. So far, it's been IMO one of the best threads in weeks.
Is it necessary for consumers to know the details in order to understand and benefit from the program? No. The real question is whether or not the program WILL benefit the consumer (and therein lies a whole bunch of argument!)
Therein lies the whole argument in my opinion
Dang, busted!! :D Except for eight years of hot tub ownership with another brand, you are correct. I am a corporate spokesman; it's in my signature; my potential bias and potential limitations are openly admitted and acknowledged. Yup, I ride for the brand!
Again you can "ride for the brand" more accurately with a broader scope of the competition. If you ever get a chance to spend some time doing ride alongs with a service based company take advantage of it.
LOL. Geez, it's been 12 years! Five years as one of Canada's fastest-growing businesses, twice recognized as one of Canada's Best Managed Companies, winner of numerous national and international awards, and one of only eight companies to be Spasearch Certified. ::) I think we've established our bona fides. But we're still a "little brother" of the industry! ;D
Making spas for 12 years and making them consistent to how you are now are two different things! To my knowledge Arctic hasn't even used the same heating system for 3 years in a row have they?
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Let me expand a bit on some of your remarks, if I may:
That, and product quality, customer service, innovation, and profitability.
We all sell the BEST product, have the BEST customer service and innovation and profitability are a result of good marketing.
I agree up until the last sentence where the difference between my mindset and yours becomes apparent: I am my own man....I do what I do the way I do it because it helps me to sell spas and feed my family. I have never been giving marching orders by anyone, much less a RSM. He comes by every so often, takes me out to eat, says "keep up the good work", and asks what he can do to help me. Obviously, your experiences are much more controlled and domineering than mine.
That's good stuff Term! ;D You are where you're at beacause you buy into a program. Nothing against you but you bleed HS. I did too with Beachcomber and was sold on their concept 100% and would back it up like a best friend in a scrap. I don't fault you for that in any way and I was as passionate about my product as you are yours. Just don't turn this into a bunch of BS and drivel about being controlled. It's a "system" that you have bought into hook, line and sinker whether you accept that reality or not. Maybe that's a tough pill to swallow for you for some reason? You wouldn't be so passionate if you didn't buy into it my friend... It's very clear.
Some of them ARE better than others. That decision lies with the CUSTOMER.
You are right but that's because we tell them that and do our best to convince them of OUR beliefs. It's called SALES.
That's your opinion. My opinion is that HotSpring is the absolute best spa in the industry. Whether you or anyone else who works in a competing capacity thinks so is irrelevant to me. My job is to show the CUSTOMER how much better my spa is than any other brand. For some, they believe another brand is better for whatever reason. That's fine, it's their money. A great many of the people who walk through my door DO believe that they are buying the greatest spa in the world. I'm happy...but more importantly, THEY are happy.
And I believe mine is best, and Mendo his, and Stuart his and blah, blah, blah.
As they should. If you don't think your brand of spa is the best spa made, then don't sell it. I wonder about the ethics of salesmen who change brands so frequently, makes me question whether or not they truly believe in their product or are just looking to make a fast buck. But please, don't try to tell me "we're all the same". We're not, and for that I am exceedingly grateful. :)
I applaud and have a great respect for salespeople that have vast experience with multiple brands. It gives a far greater perspective and that's something that many lose over time unfortunately as they become consumed by the BS of one level learning. It's a mighty big world out there... :)
There's a very good chance that you will not work for the same company all of your life. You may, but odds are you won't based on history. We'll talk more about this topic then... ;)
Steve
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Well,
I finally got a chance to talk with David the founder of spasearch magazine and we talked for about an hour!
I do feel different about the rating although I still see an incredible tool for manipulation if used wrong. (and believe me some will use it wrong.)
David made a comment that was very good...He said that he knows the ratings are not perfect and that the parameters are a work in progress but it's closer to being right than anything we've had to date.
This is the first year for doing the rating by customer survey now they just need to tighten the reins a bit and see who stays, who goes and who is new next year.
I will address more later...It's getting late and I'm tired
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When they say this is a customer rating where did the customers come from?
Bringing back an old thread because I have new information. Learned from David Woods at spasearch that the survey only went to a randomly selected a subset of the submitted customers. So of the 3,000 names I sent, they drew a random 300, say (if David told me the exact figures, I do not recall them). This should at least partly satisfy those who expressed concern about potential manipulation of the customer lists. Plans for next year apparently include more stringent controls.
Stuart apparently had more information too....
I see that there are now nine companies that have met the certification requirements.
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I don't really give them any creedence. But I know that most customers will (due in large part to the fact that everyone puts the emblem on their brochures), so I make myself aware of the current year's ratings; but I never use it as a sales tool in my presentations.
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(Sorry, wrote this some time ago and never got it posted! FWIW...)
My goal is not to attack the other brands rated “Qualified” on spasearch but rather to question the validity of the research. That is something we should all do…
This is a legitimate and worthwhile goal. However, while both the research and the program are open to question, there is IMO a difference between the two.
Any research can be examined regarding its validity (does it measure what it claims to measure?), its reliability (if the study were repeated, would it give similar results?), its conduct (was the methodology correct?) and so on.
Concerns that have been epxressed over the research:
1. Stuart wondered about possible bias in the collection and analysis of the data. We didn’t know how the various companies gathered phone numbers or email addresses for the survey, and we've noted that the lists may have been open to potential abuse or manipulation (by preselecting only customers known to be satisfied, for example).
David Woods of Spasearch says that there were controls in place that helped prevent this, notably the random selection of a subset from the supplied data.
2. The survey itself did not address length of ownership. Perhaps Spasearch will address that in the future.
3. It might be argued that the small sample size (100 completed surveys) is too small. However, Spasearch asserts that the samples were was both representative and random, and that the sample size is sufficient using accepted statistical methods.
4. And finally, some have complained that the actual detailed results of the research are not available except to those who paid admission. Pay-per-view, IMO, is both reasonable and justifiable and a common business practice.
Regarding the program itself, many concerns have been raised.
The main concern seems to be that it is a "marketing ploy". Is there anyone in the industry who does not market their product in one way or another? (As Steve says, "It's all marketing.") So let's all accept for the sake of advancing the discussion that this is the case.
As a marketing program, will it give decent ROI for the companies that paid for it? Will it be effective, and improve sales? Will it benefit the industry in any way? I don't plan to answer all these questions, but pose them as being worth consideration by sharper minds and more experienced industry professionals.
Some argued that the program was intended only as a moneymaker for Spasearch. I dismiss that one, if for no other reason than that it deliberately excludes up to 90% of their potential participants! The relatively low cost of the program also suggests that it barely covered costs. Did Spasearch make a strategic error here? Or was their decision a good one that will be well-received by consumers? (In other more cynical words, will it be successful at marketing their magazine and web services?)
....more....
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To review:
• It is generally recognized that shopping for a hot tub can be an overwhelming experience. We have heard this repeatedly on the forum, and the situation is admitted by the chairman of the Hot Tub Council of the APSP. Programs that may improve the shopping experience (including the forums) are of benefit to the consumer.
• Ratings based on consumer feedback are considered to be of high value by other consumers. The Spasearch program was based on surveys of people who own the various brands.
• Independent third-party ratings are recognized as being of benefit to the consumer and many on this forum have argued for the need for such ratings. The Spasearch surveys were conducted by independent, third-party organizations. That is, neither the manufacturers nor the magazine conducted the surveys.
• The program was intended to provide a sort of “better, best” sorting by establishing standards against which manufacturers could apply to be judged. Some protested that there was no way to distinguish between “tried and failed” and “didn’t try” (should there be?). Others decried the discrimination of higher (Certified) and lower (Approved) ratings.
• Some “rating” programs have been attacked for their high cost. The cost of this program was minimal ($1750 USD for Approved and $4995 for Certified, a small fraction of the annual advertising budget for most manufacturers of any size) and was the same for all who applied for a given standard.
• This is not a “pay your money and get the recognition” program. The award does in fact discriminate, as it was intended to. It appears that at least two companies who applied for Certification did not meet the standards.
• Arguing against, Dr. Spa said, “Many consumers may remove a brand of spa from their list simply because it's not ‘approved’. This is what I see as the biggest disservice to the consumer.”
• Other contrary arguments indicated that there is excellent value to be had from among the many mid-range brands and the rating program will mislead customers from this fact.
Overall, one more factor to sell on... or against!
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It seems to me that anything in Marketing that involves the words "Return on Investment" would automaticly exclude it from unbiased. Pretty simple for this layman.
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It seems to me that anything in Marketing that involves the words "Return on Investment" would automaticly exclude it from unbiased. Pretty simple for this layman.
huh? :o
That's just basic business. How do you market your work as a repairman? If it's strictly word of mouth, then you do not invest in marketing. If you have an ad in the yellow pages, or if you buy an ad in the local paper, that's your investment. If you ask everybody who calls you to do a job, "How did you get my name?" and four out of 10 people say, "I saw your ad", and two say "I got you out of the yellow pages", then you know you're getting a pretty good ROI. But how the heck does bias come into that?
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As we pay and gather needed information to have spasearch include our company/s in there "unbiased" report we are thinking about our ROI. If we don't feel it is a good ROI we will not include our dollars or time. Which will automaticly exclude legitamite, valuable players out of the report. If we do feel it will have a good ROI we will make sure we supply the cash and the information to insure our outcome or results are valuable to our company and sheds favorable light on our product. You know as well as I do that the marketing and ROI is thought through by the tub manufacturers way before information is sent to spasearch, can the "list of names" be skewed to only include proud new owners? Of course it can!!
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Okay, thanks for clarifying. Someone has already indicated that the way in which survey recipients are selected will be changed (which is in itself a tacit recognition that there may have been some weaknesses in how it was done for 2007).
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Where can I find a copy of the spasearch ratings? Do they tell who all they tested or just the ones that passed?
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Okay, thanks for clarifying. Someone has already indicated that the way in which survey recipients are selected will be changed (which is in itself a tacit recognition that there may have been some weaknesses in how it was done for 2007).
I personaly think there is some value in the ratings for consumers, just as there is value in anyone elses opinion at anyone of the forums or value in the web sites of the manufacturers or value in the customers of the dealers and repair guys around the area. And each valueable piece of information a consumers recieves before his purchase will help them to determine what they feel is the best product for them. As long as they use them not as they were intended, to sell you a spa, or steer you away from a particular brand, but rather to gather information to help them to make a decision.