Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: wmccall on March 06, 2007, 10:46:49 am
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Most of you already know this, but I confirmed it this winter/fall. EVeryone agrees not to use Armor-all. For the first years of my tub I used a different product that is available at an auto store. (can't remember the name, keep wanting to say Marquis, but I know that isn't right.
So I finally broke down and bought the 303 Vinyl protectent and used it last August. After some summer, and fall and part of winter, I'd definitely say, good stuff.
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I use that stuff on my spa cover and many other vinyl surfaces.
Works great on the boat and motorcycle seats too- they're exposed to a lot of sun- way more so than my spa cover.
The supposed problem with Armor All is that if you stop using it, the vinly cracks.
At least that's my understanding.
I get mine at the local marina. None of the spa dealers around here carry it.
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We have been selling 303 for 8 years. It is GREAT stuff!!!!
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Everyone agrees not to use Armor-all.
FWIW, I don't agree. I used Armor All on my cover for 8 years and it was in like-new condition, as shiny and flexible at the end as at the beginning.
Elsewhere, last October, Dr. Spa had said, "As for armor all, DO NOT USE IT on ANY vinyl product..... Basically it removes all the natural plasticizers from the vinyl and replaces them with it's own version..... If you don't reapply the armorall quite regularly, your vinyl will crack and fall apart quite prematurely."
Curious about this, I googled "Armor All" with "sucks", "problems", "research" and "crack". I found little of substance. Mostly it is people repeating a rumour, a sort of urban legend that everyone has heard from a friend of a friend or heard on the internet but never bothered to verify. It seems to be one of those things that "everyone knows", just as everybody "knew" that the earth was flat. It's the "where there's smoke there's fire" excuse for thinking: "If it weren't true, why would everybody say it?" For the psychology of this, I refer you to www.snopes.com, an urban legends site.
Here are some results from my internet search:
"Armor All looks good, gives a nice shine, etc., but I hear there's something in it...that over time will actually dry the vinyl out." is a typical comment. (http://www.imperialclub.com/Repair/Body/vinyl.htm; this thread reviews a few versions of the story, with various degrees of pseudo-science)
"The story goes like so: If you apply a dressing on a vinyl surface, you will have to apply it regularly to that vinyl surface or it will start to crack. There is no real evidence that this is true, at least with modern day dressings." (http://www.web-cars.com/detail/dressings.php - an auto detailing site)
"There was once a debate over the effectiveness of the product Armor-All . One assertion was that, instead of replacing softening oils, Armor-All actually brought oils to the surface causing them to evaporate more quickly. Of course, another study showed the complete opposite." (http://www.pslc.ws/mactest/work/dash.htm) Can't find a study that shows either.
"Appears to cause long-term damage to vinyl which is exposed to ultraviolet." http://www1.epinions.com/content_231006768772 - this is a well-done anecdotal account of dashboard deterioration which the author, rightly or wrongly, attributes to Armor All. If it weren't for the date, I'd be prepared to consider this the source of the whole rumor.
"I can't prove their claims, but there's a contingent that believes Armor-All prematurely ages plastic." (http://ask.metafilter.com/mefi/38466 - maybe because there's no proof?)
Might we consider the possibility that the whole thing was the result of a slur from a competing product? Hard to say; there is never any source attached to the rumor (typical of one type of urban legend). It's hard to refute what's not there.
Armor All directly denies the story (but then, you'd expect that): "Protectants can help protect your car from the elements that can cause your dash to fade and your tyres to crack. Surfaces can't become "addicted" to protectants, and damage is a result of neglect, not use." (http://www.armorall.com.au/content.aspx?id=19)
For objective information, I turned to the various vinyl trade organizations. The Vinyl Institute (http://www.vinylinfo.org/) has NOTHING about Armor All, nor did the Canadian Vinyl Council (http://www.plastics.ca/vinyl/default.php?). The Vinyl Siding Institute actually RECOMMENDS Armor All as a cleaner (http://www.vinylsiding.org/aboutsiding/cleanmain/cleaning/).
My conclusion: nothing wrong with Armor All for spa covers.
In the end, I emailed the Armor All people to ask about the suitability of their product for marine-grade vinyl. Here is their reply:
"ARMOR ALL Protectant is a water based silicone emulsion specifically designed to protect and beautify polymeric materials such as rubber, plastic, vinyl and leather. The protectant fights deterioration caused by ozone, oxidation and ultra-violet radiation. It does not contain plasticizers, petroleum or alcohol.
While we are confident that ARMOR ALL Protectant is both safe and effective, we are also aware that nothing can prevent the eventual failure of polymeric materials. Deterioration of these materials can start within one year of service. The rate of this deterioration is dependent upon many factors, including exposure to the elements, the amount of care given to the surface, and the original quality of the material. I hope this information answers your concerns and that you will continue to use ARMOR ALL with confidence.
This is our statement for use on vinyl in automobiles. The vinyl used for hot tub covers or boat covers are different in that many of the manufacturers treat with a substance to make them waterproof. The product they treat it with may react with the Armor All. I have spoken to consumers that have had good luck with the product on hot tub covers. However, since we have not tested our product in this type of application we can not recommend it. " [Well, uh, with a large and growing number of hot tub owners, maybe you should test it, and recommend it!]
So there's my verdict - charge dismissed for lack of evidence. But I'm willing to reconsider my opinion if presented with solid, verifiable proof to the contrary. :D
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"However, since we have not tested our product in this type of application we can not recommend it."
[size=18]
HELLO ? ? ? ? [/size] Armor-all themselves don't recommend it.
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I already had some 303 for my car's convertible top. I've been using it on the hot tub cover once a month. Seems to work pretty well.
-geekd
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Elsewhere, last October, Dr. Spa had said, "As for armor all, DO NOT USE IT on ANY vinyl product..... Basically it removes all the natural plasticizers from the vinyl and replaces them with it's own version..... If you don't reapply the armorall quite regularly, your vinyl will crack and fall apart quite prematurely."
Curious about this, I googled "Armor All" with "sucks", "problems", "research" and "crack". I found little of substance. Mostly it is people repeating a rumour, a sort of urban legend that everyone has heard from a friend of a friend or heard on the internet but never bothered to verify. It seems to be one of those things that "everyone knows", just as everybody "knew" that the earth was flat. It's the "where there's smoke there's fire" excuse for thinking: "If it weren't true, why would everybody say it?" For the psychology of this, I refer you to www.snopes.com, an urban legends site.:D
I take your research with merit. Actually I think that is the first time I've help perpetuate that train of thought (I'm rough on people who forward the million goofy things you have seen in email messages.) I have also used Armor All on car dashboards for years. However, as opinion in the hot tub field has been very slanted against it, I started using Marquires (sp) with my hot tub cover and have not felt it's protection lasted long enough. 303 has proven superior to it in my totally casual use.
I'm thinking of buying a new car in the next few weeks, but perhaps this spring I'll use Armor all and 303 on the Dash of my current car, the Sante Fe and do a side by side.
Clearly a company as big as Armorall/STP should be able to reasearch this, if they chose. If they did research it and find it to be unsuitable, would they tell us? Checking the website I learned they were partnered with STP. I've hear discussions, and I'm totally ignorant in this area, as to whether or not STP was of any value and living off hype. Remember Slick 50?
My cover is 3 years old now and I won't be heart broken to get a new one, so perhaps I'll use armor all on one small section of the cover once we get into the warmer weather. I haven't treated my Sante Fe dash in a while, so I could do a comparison right now. If anyone has any thoughts on doing this fairly let me know.
Thanks for putting in your input on this one.
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Great post tom. Thanks.
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I've used 303 on my cars interior now for about a year and a half, after buying it for my hot tub cover and I have found it to be a great vinyl "protectant".....It makes the dash and other vinyl surfaces look and feel as they did when new. I wouldn't use armor-all because of the oily residue it seems to leave behind, especially on my hot tub cover, just in case you would get cross contamination in the water.
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I've used 303 on my cars interior now for about a year and a half, after buying it for my hot tub cover and I have found it to be a great vinyl "protectant".....It makes the dash and other vinyl surfaces look and feel as they did when new. I wouldn't use armor-all because of the oily residue it seems to leave behind, especially on my hot tub cover, just in case you would get cross contamination in the water.
I've also found that Armor all had a "sour milk" smell to it. Does the 303 have an odor?
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Check with the maker of your cover. None of this matters if the use of this product will end your warranty - sort of takes it out of contention in that case.
8-)
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I had to go and spray some on a rag...(and I don't encourange sniffing it!) but, it smells kinda "plasticy", it there is such a word.....
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I had to go and spray some on a rag...(and I don't encourange sniffing it!) but, it smells kinda "plasticy", it there is such a word.....
agreed. It lingers for a day or so, but is not too offesnsive. Use the stuff sparingly.
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303 is something we carry and it seems to be a great product.
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Check with the maker of your cover. None of this matters if the use of this product will end your warranty - sort of takes it out of contention in that case.
8-)
Has any cover mfg ever voided anybody's cover because of a protectant?
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"However, since we have not tested our product in this type of application we can not recommend it."
[size=18]
HELLO ? ? ? ? [/size] Armor-all themselves don't recommend it.
Geez, Doc, you don't have to shout. :D It says "can not" not "do not".
I just don't think people should malign the product without evidence. If you have additional evidence, I'll listen.
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We sell 303 in our store and use it on our display spa covers. It gives a great shine and smell it gives off is not too offense that we can't do it during business hours. ;)
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Speaking of odors, have you heard the story that bears are attracted to hot tub covers because of the formic acid they (the covers) contain? I wasn't able to find any evidence of that one, either! ;) Nor could I find any indication that formic acid is used in the manufacture of, or is produced by the aging/degradation of, either marine grade vinyl or polyurethane foam (other types of foam, I didn't check).
However, I did find some evidence that bears are attracted to the water IN the hot tub, which suggests that if a bear damages a cover it is while he is impatiently removing it to climb into the tub. ;D
Yet I found what should be reputable sources repeating the story that bears love to munch on hot tub covers. (Well, if they munch Arctic Covers, at least they've got good taste, and will get a big thick mouthful. ;D )
Unverified and unsubstantiated rumors abound on the internet. Few people seem to ask, "I wonder if this is true?" They just pass it on....
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Speaking of odors, have you heard the story that bears are attracted to hot tub covers because of the
Yet I found what should be reputable sources repeating the story that bears love to munch on hot tub covers. (Well, if they munch Arctic Covers, at least they've got good taste, and will get a big thick mouthful. ;D )
Unverified and unsubstantiated rumors abound on the internet. Few people seem to ask, "I wonder if this is true?" They just pass it on....
Yeah but most bears after dining on the Arctic cover quickly develop a bad case of ingestion..... ;)
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Yeah but most bears after dining on the Arctic cover quickly develop a bad case of ingestion..... ;)
I'm sure that's true. And even worse if they try to eat the interior metal frame.
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The whole Armor All rumor is just that, a rumor.
I've been using it on my Hot tub cover now for 6+ months. Looks great.
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The whole Armor All rumor is just that, a rumor.
I've been using it on my Hot tub cover now for 6+ months. Looks great.
BTW, the issue with Armor All has always been that if you stop using it you'll start to see the issues with drying out/cracking so I suggest you continue to use it. Twice I have dealt with spa owners who happen to work in the car detailing business and both echoed the concern of use of Armor All saying they would never use it so they know not to use it on their cover.
Of course I have no scientific proof that it is an issue. How do you know this to be rumor?
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BTW, the issue with Armor All has always been that if you stop using it you'll start to see the issues with drying out/cracking so I suggest you continue to use it. Twice I have dealt with spa owners who happen to work in the car detailing business and both echoed the concern of use of Armor All saying they would never use it so they know not to use it on their cover.
Of course I have no scientific proof that it is an issue. How do you know this to be rumor?
tuo,
I've heard the same thing including attributing the drying and cracking of vinyl that no longer receives AA treatment to the silicones that AA uses. The story goes that the silicones draw the oils out of the vinyl thereby drying it. 303 uses no silicones...the biggest difference between the two.
I apply 303 about 3 times a year to mine, which is in direct sun all day and I'm very pleased with the results.
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Greetings, I need a good product that effectively dissolves and absorbs seasonal pollutants from the siding surface without harming this surface and the environment. It should not leave spots, traces, and stains - this is an extremely important difference that distinguishes a specialized cleanser from other cleaning products. It is said that this is a good product and after washing away the pollutants and when the siding is dry you will not see whitish marks and stains on its surface! Is it true?