Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: drewstar on February 16, 2007, 09:58:52 am
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This past weekend I visited a good friend who lives out on a lake in MA. He was having an ice skating party. The ice was pretty thick (we have some bitter cold temps here in MA lately). There were dozens of folks skating, a few snowmobiles and quad bikes on the ice.
I noticed several hundred feet away an area by one dock that wasn't frozen. I thought maybe this guy was draining his septic into the pond? Why else would the entire lake be frozen, yet his area not?
My friend explained that the owner has a 1 hp submersable pump out there that he uses as a circ pump to keep the water from freezing around his dock. (Unlike other residents on the lake who prefer to take thier docks out, he leaves it in all year). I was impressed. In the dead of a New England winter, on a frozen lake, there was this area about 600 sq feet was not frozen , all beacuse of the circ pump.
Made me apprecaite my insualted hot tub with a surface area of 50 sq feets, circ pump.
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It makes absolutely no difference which system you have circ or no circ as long as the spa has power and is functional they will not freeze.
You loose power or have a parts failure and it is cold enough, guess what both will freeze.
So I do not see your point, or do not understand why you now how this extra confidence.
Not trying be rude but pointing out the facts.
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It makes absolutely no difference which system you have circ or no circ as long as the spa has power and is functional they will not freeze.
You loose power or have a parts failure and it is cold enough, guess what both will freeze.
So I do not see your point, or do not understand why you now how this extra confidence.
Not trying be rude but pointing out the facts.
Not sure if I had a point. It was an observation on how circualting the water, even in very harsh enviroments can be effective. I never really had a sense of just what a small pump could do, but standing out on the lake and seeing it made me think more about it, and I was impressed.
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Not sure if I had a point...
That's how I feel after reading most of your posts! ;) :)
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thanks guys.
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That's cool, I just did not want someone to think that just because they have a circ pump it will not freeze.
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thanks guys.
I thought it was a lovely story, and you tell it with such enthusiasm. ;)
Would you like to see what Lt. Dan looks like?
Why yeeessss, I would.
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I thought it was a lovely story, and you tell it with such enthusiasm. ;)
Would you like to see what Lt. Dan looks like?
Why yeeessss, I would.
Thanks Term. I was going to also mention how I saved a whole familly of small furry woodland creatures using a spare hotsprings circ pump but Gary and Reese have ruined it for everyone.
Yes, I would very much like to see what Lt. Dan looks like.
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I live near a relatively large lake- it attracts hundreds of fishing shacks, snowmobilers, and ATV'ers in the winter. This lake is fed by inflow from an adjoining lake, and with the undercurrent, there are several spots on the lake that never freeze or freeze to a very small amount. That's the affect of the water moving under the ice.
Moving water will eventually freeze- it just takes a bit more time and lower temperatures to get the job done. Up near Duluth, Gooseberry Falls State Park, you can see a frozen waterfall. That's a pretty amazing sight.
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(http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j61/GodlikeMoron/niagara4.jpg)
Viagara Niagara Falls frozen.
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Yes, I would very much like to see what Lt. Dan looks like.
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/lt.jpg)
He ain't got no legs.
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Based on the edumacation I'm gettin from this thread, I just went out and disconnected my circ pump. Why run the danged thing if it ain't doin no good anyhow. When my lectricity bill drops, I be able to buy more beer! ;) :)
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Now you's usin' yore noggin'!
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/776e32dc.jpg)
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Based on the edumacation I'm gettin from this thread, I just went out and disconnected my circ pump. Why run the danged thing if it ain't doin no good anyhow. When my lectricity bill drops, I be able to buy more beer! ;) :)
My circ pump wasn't sold to me as anti freezing device.
It was sold as part of the sanitation and heating systems.
However, my expereince on the lake got me thinking how it might work in relation to freezing. If the heater went out, but not the power, it would make a difference in the tub, nbut would it in the pipes and jet pumps?
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Hey Drew, I appreciated your story. Last year, I left the waterfall in my fish pond running all winter. I usually use a stock heater in to keep and area open, but I kept procrastinating on taking out the pump..It worked better and looked nicer all winter. So moving water is the ticket to prevent or at least minimize freezing.
I know our dock at the beach gets twisted and lifted every year when we get deep freezes. The water is tidal and brackish but it still freezes enough to lift the pilings (never spelled that before, somehow it doesn't look right!)..I think the guy with the circ pump is pretty smart! I don't have one in my tub, but I can always just keep my waterfall running ;D ;D ;)
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Yes, you can avoid freezing in a tub with a circulation pump - that is one of many reasons that HS puts the heater on it's own circuit breaker. If the heater has an issue, the rest of the tub can keep going, and it will stall off freezing for a very long time, perhaps indefinitely.
In our mild weather, the circ pump by itself can raise the temp of a HS tub to the mid nineties - and hold it there. Obviously, that is not just because the water is in motion like the lake example above, but in the case of the hot tub there is a samll amount of heat imparted into the water and motor compartment as well, and the fully insulated tub captures and holds that heat.
Vermonter fired up his Grandee once in the dead of a snowy winter with the heater switched off. It took a few days, but the thing got up to around 98 degrees on just the circ pump. Brad - correct me if I have that wrong please.
BTW - I have seen air blowers used to keep the water from freezing around a dock. They run the air down to a pipe with holes in it down the length of the dock. The bubble action brings up warmer water from the depths, and keeps the water in gentle motion. Seems to work, but they make noise. The submersible pumps are pretty much silent.
8-)
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However, my expereince on the lake got me thinking how it might work in relation to freezing. If the heater went out, but not the power, it would make a difference in the tub, nbut would it in the pipes and jet pumps?
So with that theory I spa that uses the low speed of the jet pump to circulate the water for heat would be a better system, because it moves 10 times the amount of water. Heater fails and a circ pump system still only moves 7-8GPM, a non-circ pump system would move 60-80GPM (depend on the pump).
So with a non-circ pump system it would take much longer for it to freeze up.
Thanks Drewstar, I never been a big fan of those little circ pumps and now I have another reason not to like them.
;D ;D ;D ;D
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So with that theory I spa that uses the low speed of the jet pump to circulate the water for heat would be a better system, because it moves 10 times the amount of water. Heater fails and a circ pump system still only moves 7-8GPM, a non-circ pump system would move 60-80GPM (depend on the pump).
So with a non-circ pump system it would take much longer for it to freeze up.
Thanks Drewstar, I never been a big fan of those little circ pumps and now I have another reason not to like them.
;D ;D ;D ;D
Huh?
When you say a "nom circ pump system", do you mean a tub that doesn't use a circ pump at all, or a tub that uses the jet pumps on low for double duty and as a circ pump as you suggested?
using the larger pumps for ciruclation would work. It would cost you more and a bit of overkill, but ok.
Why the hate for circ pumps? mine works fine.
Was you dog killed by a circ pump or something?
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So with that theory I spa that uses the low speed of the jet pump to circulate the water for heat would be a better system, because it moves 10 times the amount of water. Heater fails and a circ pump system still only moves 7-8GPM, a non-circ pump system would move 60-80GPM (depend on the pump).
So with a non-circ pump system it would take much longer for it to freeze up.
Thanks Drewstar, I never been a big fan of those little circ pumps and now I have another reason not to like them.
;D ;D ;D ;D
I'd say it depends on how well they transfer the heat to teh water. As Chas indicated (and I have seen as well) some of the circ pumps transfer a very high % of their heat directly to the water. Though the low speed pump moves more water and generates more heat it's heat transfer isn't as direct from the pump to the water but instead it heats up the cabinet more so how well it transfers that heat to the water becomes the question. In reality, if your heater goes out and the filtration pump still works (either circ pump or low speed pump) your spa should be just fine for many days.
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Actually, the Laing circulator which HotSpring uses is water cooled. That means that it will put more heat into the water than your typical 48-frame plastic jet pump running on low speed.
The larger pump may put out more heat into the motor compartment - I hope so since it's burning more power - but that heat has to get into the tub through the shell.
(http://image.bizrate.com/resize?sq=160&uid=423521253&mid=16657)
8-)
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Its just a lil' pump and a lil' foam.
And, don't be hatin'
(or you might wind up old, poor, unloved and re-badging someone else's spas in your front yard)
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Was you dog killed by a circ pump or something?
Actully I like Circ Pumps (Laing 909 & 303), between those and pressure switches I am well on my way to a third Corvette. ;D
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Actully I like Circ Pumps (Laing 909 & 303), between those and pressure switches I am well on my way to a third Corvette. ;D
then we agree.
I like circ pumps because they inject the 03 into my tub, circulate the heated water, and move the water through the filters 24 /7 at very little cost without taxing the more exspensive larger pumps.
If my heater screws up or trips. I know my water wont freeze.
So we can agree, we both like circ pumps. You because you like over compensating cars, ;) and me because I like efficent hot tubs.
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then we agree.
I like circ pumps because they inject the 03 into my tub, circulate the heated water, and move the water through the filters 24 /7 at very little cost without taxing the more exspensive larger pumps.
If my heater screws up or trips. I know my water wont freeze.
So we can agree, we both like circ pumps. You because you like fast over compensating cars, ;) and me because I like efficent hot tubs.
I also like circ pumps. Don't need a reason. Just like the idea of water constantly moving. Makes me feel better.
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Ditto- I like the way the Optima filters. The circ pump is on 24/7 to constantly circulate water thru the microfilter, and also heated water when it's called for.
One of the large jet pumps can be programmed to come on for higher volume filtration thru the main pleated filter. Mine runs 4 times per day for about 45 minutes per time, but can be programmed to run pretty much up to 24/7 if needed or wanted.
Sundance recommends setting this pump to run 24/7 as added protection if the temperature is expected to drop below -20F. Thankfully we haven't had that happen too much this season.
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Some companies use pumps built to capture the heat generated by the pump and put it back into the water in a more direct way than just heating the inside of the cabinet.
DM Industries, the manufacturer of Vita and Reflections does that. I am sure others must do so as well. Don't know if this is exactly the same as a water cooled pump that was mentioned.
http://www.vitaspa.com/spa_construction/heet.htm
(http://www.vitaspa.com/spa_construction/spa_consntruction_jpgs/heet.jpg)
Can't recall who the pump manufacturer is for DM Industries. But I know that with the circ pump running 24 hours as mine does it takes a long time for the spa to lose a lot of heat even in fairly cold weather, even with the heater off.
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You because you like over compensating cars, ;) and me because I like efficent hot tubs.
I like big trucks also, I have an 03 Silverado with a 6" lift and 35" tires, dual exhaust, air intake... and my motorcycle has a 1.8L v-twin (that's 18000CC), 110HP.
No more Internet today have to make some money, I think I got four circ pumps (Laing) and a stuck moto jet to do today.
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I like big trucks also, I have an 03 Silverado with a 6" lift and 35" tires, dual exhaust, air intake... and my motorcycle has a 1.8L v-twin (that's 18000CC), 110HP.
so?
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So we can agree, we both like circ pumps.
Ya'll better watch yourselves.....if rick happens along and reads about how much you guys like circ pumps...well....it won't be pretty.
Terminator the Circ Pump Hater (if rick's reading this thread)
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No more Internet today have to make some money, I think I got four circ pumps (Laing) and a stuck moto jet to do today.
Assuming it's not just dirty filters, how much are you going to charge to fix the MotoMassage? How old is the spa? What model?
Term
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then we agree.
I like circ pumps because they inject the 03 into my tub, circulate the heated water, and move the water through the filters 24 /7 at very little cost without taxing the more exspensive larger pumps.
If my heater screws up or trips. I know my water wont freeze.
So we can agree, we both like circ pumps. You because you like over compensating cars, ;) and me because I like efficent hot tubs.
What happens if your circ pump quits?
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Just a couple observations from this past cold snap.
I got a call from a dealer that had a tub that was not working. It used a 2 speed pump to filter and the customer was only using the factory setting for filtration 2 hours every 12. Well with temps at -20, the water frozen enough in the volute of the pump that it would not allow the impeller to move, thus kicking off the tub and it started to freeze. This was a full foam tub but it had no insulation on the door. The dealer just heated up the wet end and the tub worked.
Many tubs in conjuction with their circulation pump have a small bleed line that feeds water to the wet ends to keep this from happening.
The other story comes from a dealer in southern Missouri where tens of thousands of homes were without power. A customer was concerned what to do after 3 days no power and the dealer said don't worry, but if you are truly concerned, push down the gate valves, disconnect your pumps and packs and take them in the house. They finally got power back 7 days later and when they put the pack back on and connected the power the tub temp was 85 degrees. This after 7 days with no electricity. Most people here will no what brand I am talking about, but it just goes to show the difference a 4th wall of insulation will make.
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Most people here will no what brand I am talking about, but it just goes to show the difference a 4th wall of insulation will make.
Yes, HotSpring has been insulating all four walls for about 30 years now. It does help.
8-)
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Actully I like Circ Pumps (Laing 909 & 303), between those and pressure switches I am well on my way to a third Corvette. ;D
Speak it brother, I LOVE them too!
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You crack me up Chas
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... it just goes to show the difference a 4th wall of insulation will make.
If you don't take the pumps off, is a trouble light under the step enough to prevent freezing, or do you always instruct to homeowner to remove the pumps?
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A light will usually do the job. The customer in question just wanted to go to the extreme. And of course the customer is always right.
About 6 years ago my service department went out to a job of a freeze up. They found the circ pump still going but 8" of ice on top. The heater quit working but the pipes never froze. They replaced the heater and the tub was thawed with no leaks. I would tell you what brand but they would make Chas even more proud.
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We have one or two customers who like to open there pools EARLY. We pop a hole in the ice, down goes the pump, plug it in and whalla...couple days later we start up the pool. Amazing what a little current will do.
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You know, that's an idea that came to me the other day while I was draining a spa out in the shop. My 'Little Giant' submersible pump gets plenty hot when draining a 500 gallon tub for me. It dawned on me that if somebody had a tub in danger of freezing up, but they still had power available, they could just put the submersible pump in the tub, close the lid and let her rip. No hose, just let the water circulate around in the tub.
I bet it would get a well - insulated tub up to 104 easily. I have no idea how fast it would heat the tub, but if you are just trying to keep a tub from freezing until the repair guy gets out, I suppose it doesn't matter if you only get it up to 90 or whatever. You could also put a short garden hose on the pump and force the water through the jet system once you get it up to a nice warm temp to be sure the pumps and plumbing stay toasty.
I was thinkin' that repair guys in the snowy parts of the world had most likely thought of this, and I see they have. Never would have dawned on me to use this trick for a whole swimming pool, but why not?
8-)
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Chas, so are you saying that the pump itself would generate heat, or just keeping the water moving would prevent freezing? If you had power, but no heat, couldnt you just run the tub pumps to the same effect?
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Never would have dawned on me to use this trick for a whole swimming pool, but [glow]why not[/glow]?
Sounds like a good idea to me. :)
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Chas, so are you saying that the pump itself would generate heat, or just keeping the water moving would prevent freezing? If you had power, but no heat, couldnt you just run the tub pumps to the same effect?
Yes, the pump itself does create a good amount of heat. I think in a swimming pool the water movement would be the key ingredient, but in a tub the heat would really work for you.
And yes, if you had power but no heat, the circ pump built into the spa could work for you. My post was just a mental exercise about what to do if you had power but no circ pump. In many tubs the jet pumps will atuomatically shut off after a set amount of time, so you could just go out and turn on the jets every so often. But dropping in the sub pump seems like a pretty easy way to keep things warm in a pinch.
Putting in the submersible pump would be an easy way to keep the temperature up in a spa which had some failure during freezing weather. Keep in mind I live in paradise and don't have a lot of experience with this - in fact we recently had a power outage that lasted close to six or seven hours, and it was a big deal. The paper had maps, photos and interviews for a couple of days. It was the frist such thing I can remember in many years. But of course, the weather was nice and nobody was in danger of freezing anything.
8-)
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Chas, so are you saying that the pump itself would generate heat, or just keeping the water moving would prevent freezing? If you had power, but no heat, couldnt you just run the tub pumps to the same effect?
As a cold weather denizen, I'm always on the lookout for good ideas to manage freezing risk. I hadn't seen the sump pump suggestion before. The genius of the idea is that you could use it when the power is out, needing only a small generator, instead a huge expensive monster with enough output to run the whole tub. Other folks have suggested wiring a plug on to the circ pump so that you could run it with a small generator. I like this idea better due to its simplicity. Good idea, Chas! 8-)
p.s. Some of us who get to experience all four seasons with nature right out our back door consider that more "paradise", than the same weather all the time, Chas. ;) :)
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What happens if your circ pump quits?
Probably the same thing that happens if you large pumps quits. "Circ" pump means a pump that circulates the water. Every tub has a "circ pump". Some tubs just use the bigger pumps to do it, other brands uses a dedicated pump that goes 24/7.
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..."Circ" pump means a pump that circulates the water. Every tub has a "circ pump". Some tubs just use the bigger pumps to do it, other brands uses a dedicated pump that goes 24/7.
I'm pretty sure SpaHappy knows the difference. :-/ She was just trying to pull a "Perogie" ;) and steer the conversation to the advantages of TP. This demonstrates my point in the hostility thread-- respected folks who have built up good will by other contributions don't get smacked down -- at least not with the same gusto. :)
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I'm pretty sure SpaHappy knows the difference. :-/ She was just trying to pull a "Perogie" ;) and steer the conversation to the advantages of TP. This demonstrates my point in the hostility thread-- respected folks who have built up good will by other contributions don't get smacked down -- at least not with the same gusto. :)
Advantages of TP? I didn't think there were any. Are you pulling my Perogie? ;D :D
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Ya'll better watch yourselves.....if rick happens along and reads about how much you guys like circ pumps...well....it won't be pretty.
Terminator the Circ Pump Hater (if rick's reading this thread)
That's ok Term, I hear some people like triple pane windows too. ::)
But I hear there are reports that circ pumps do serve a good purpose in colonic hydrotherapy. ;D
PS: and pay no attention to the previous poster who claims there are no advantages of TP.
He's just one of those guys who's installed a circ pump next to his toilet. ;)