Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: Kirby2007 on February 12, 2007, 08:54:04 pm
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I'm looking at a couple of Hot tubs and need some help choosing which is the best deal. I'm looking for a good tub and have found a new 2006 Sundance Burlington 680 tub for $5000 which is fully foamed but I believe it might be on the lower end of Sundance tub line. And I have found a used 2005 Artic spa Avalance Signature series for $5800 in good shape both come with covers, lift, CD-ozone, mood lights, waterfall. The Artic spa is larger 92 x 92 x38, 440 gal compared to the Sundance 84 x 84 x 36, 330 gal. The Sundance has full foam all around exept where the heater and pumps are and the Artic has foam on the outsides and bottom leaving the controls inside the insulation and the tub open for maintenance and upgrades if wanted down the road. The Artic tub also has a special bottom that keeps out critters etc. and is made in Canada which has an actual lifetime warranty on the shell as compared to what US considers lifetime to be 7 years. The warranty on the used Artic tub has 3 1/2 years left on the controls, motor etc. Am I better off with the new Sundance or the used Artic?
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kirby: I would check into the warranty on the Arctic. Spa warranties usally are not transferrable, so once the original owner sells the spa, the warranty is voided. Marquis and Beachcomber are the only companies I know of with a transferrable warranty.
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I have checked into it and they do transfer the warranty. Thanks.
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re: "Marquis and Beachcomber are the only companies I know of with a transferrable warranty."
Did not know that.
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Hi Kirby!
Well I learned something new here. I have an Arctic, and assumed that the warranty was not transferable. Good to know, though I plan to keep my tub for a long time.
Both of the brans that you are looking at are well regarded. You could read here for days about the pros and cons of full foam vs Arctic's "heatlock".......dont let that difference decide for you. You'll meet very happy owners of both brands here. I was unable to even wet test Sundance when I shopped (no local dealer), so I can offer no insight there, but I am very fond of my tub.
I looked at photos of the Burlington and the Avalanche. I was interested to see that in some ways they are a bit similar in conformation. Arctics tend to be very "sculpted" which people tend to love or hate. The Avalanche appears to be less sculpted than my tub, so that might not be a huge issue. If you can, wet test each....might be tough since they are used.....but it is the key to picking which one feels best to you. Sitting in one dry is probably better than nothing at all, but is just not the same as with it full of water and running.
Good luck!!!!
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Anne, thanks for the feedback. Should I be at all concerned about the fact that its used? Would my cost to run it here in Minnesota be lower with Artics Heatlock system?
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http://www.arcticspas.com/index.php/en/show_content/37/37/
Everything in the warranty refers to the original owner. It does not state it is transferable.
For the prices you are stating I would recommend the Sundance. I would pay less for a new tub.
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Anne, thanks for the feedback. Should I be at all concerned about the fact that its used? Would my cost to run it here in Minnesota be lower with Artics Heatlock system?
Boy, I really dont know the answer to either question. Seems that the biggest issues buying used is that you cannot know how well it was cared for in it's first life, and lack of warranty. If you have the warranty, and the tub looks well cared for, seems that you might get a better deal used, as with any big ticket item. As for heat efficiency, my understanding is that pretty much all of the "quality" tubs offer similar cost effectiveness. There really are tons of threads on this if you search back in the "dead horse" and the main forum. As a researching buyer myself just about a year ago I was asking the same questions as you are now, and the debate is a deep one. Hopefully some of the veterans of the forum will chime in here, too, but I'll repeat...."dont let that difference decide for you." You are already considering two very well made brands, so it become a question of taste, cost, and perhaps dealer.
As for comparing the prices, I'd see if you can find out what each of those would cost as 2007 models, and compare down from there. Is the Arctic from a dealer or private party? If private, why selling? (I assume that the new 2006 Sundance is at a dealer, even though it is last years model)
My personal experience with my local Arctic dealer, and I have also heard others echo this experience, was that prices are way negotiable. I'll PM you the details of my purchase.
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Arctic's warranty specifically states that the warranty is for the origianal owner only. It may be that the dealer is offering some kind of protection. In that case, the protection offered is only as good as the dealer.
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When someone says a warranty is "transferable"...be sure and ask the next question.
HOW MUCH?.....$$$$$?
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Hey Kirby,
As others have said, both Sundance and Artic have very good reputations. And although one employs full foam, and the other a thermal lock design, for the most part, both of these tubs properly working with a good cover will cost/provide very similliar insualtion rates. So I wound't let that be the deciding factor. For me the big differenance is the Artic will be cycing on and off during the day, while the full foams dosent.
The Avalanche is a bit bigger, (8 inches in each direction) but the Signiture series line is about the same in jets and pumps. The Sundance is 320 gallons (but smaller in dimesions), while artic is 490 gallons and a bit bigger.
I'd wet test. This may tell you one is right out of the question.
Also when comparing the costs, does the artic have and ozone system? What conditions is the cover, steps and lifter? Does the Sundance price include delivery? (Don't underestimate this when buying a used tub.).
I'm leaning towards the Sundance (if it fits you in the wet test) at this price. To get into a used artic, I'd personally would like to see the $ drop a bit to cover the lesser warrenty, defray delivery and such.
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I have checked into it and they do transfer the warranty. Thanks.
My guess is that you are looking at an Arctic from the dealer and that the dealer is planning to honor the rest of the warranty because I really don't think it's truly tranferable. If that's the case you would need that in writing because the original warranty would not back you. As far as the insulation, ability to keep out critters, so-called "lifetime" warranties and any of the other things said, I wouldn't put much stock in one having an advantage over the other. It all comes down to one how each work for you relative to comfort, style, size etc. versus the fact that one is new and one is not. sounds like viable options either way.
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I would definitly go with the Sundance tub in your climate!!! Arctic spas will cost you more to operate in that climate no matter what the dealer tells you. Even a lower end sundance offers full foam and a strong warranty that you're sure you get! That spa has been a pretty big seller across the country because of all the features you're getting for the small amount of money. If you are trying to stay in that price range you might also want to consider a tiger river bengal. It's made by hotspring and one of the most energy smart spas available. The Sundance would be a great choice too. Either way get yourself into hot water asap!!!! I just got a new Grandee and I love it
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I would definitly go with the Sundance tub in your climate!!! Arctic spas will cost you more to operate in that climate no matter what the dealer tells you. Even a lower end sundance offers full foam and a strong warranty that you're sure you get! That spa has been a pretty big seller across the country because of all the features you're getting for the small amount of money. If you are trying to stay in that price range you might also want to consider a tiger river bengal. It's made by hotspring and one of the most energy smart spas available. The Sundance would be a great choice too. Either way get yourself into hot water asap!!!! I just got a new Grandee and I love it
:o That's a lot of sales hyperbole from a "happy owner". ::) Does your dealership carry both Watkins and Sundance? ;)
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I'm not aware of this Dealer selling Watkins, I've never heard of them. They only have the one Sundance Burlington 2006 left for $5000 and I looked at a Sundance Caymen 2006 for $5800 today not sure if the Caymen is worth the $800 more but its the 780 series rather than the 680 has better jets and filtering. I will probably wet test them to see which I like better. I'll we test the Artic as well.
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Sorry, that question wasn't directed at you. I was asking "my grandee" who she worked for. ;) Watkins is the parent company of several brands including HotSpring and Tiger River. I would disregard her comments regarding Arctic energy consumption and the superiority of full foam insulation. The consensus on this board is that the type of insulation is not as important as the execution, and most of the major brands (including the ones you are considering) will have similar energy costs. The other folks have given you good advice, the choice of tub should come down to your personal preference, and your evaluation of the Arctic warranty throught the dealer. IMO, the only way the used tub is worth that much is if you are certain that the dealer warranty is reliable.
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The term "Heatlock" is simply a marketing term. It's a thermal barrier design. It doesn't REALLY "lock heat in". Thermal barrier designs are fine when the pumps run alot (read as pumps running more often requires more electricity and therefore a higher cost than a full foam spa) but that is not necessarily a better design than a full foam spa (like the sundance). Here's something to consider in your environment... What happens when the power fails (for days on end)? The full foam WILL keep the water warmer longer (simply due to the physics as it has more insulation). The thermal barrier uses air to insulate and pump heat to augment that area. No pump operation, no heat augmentation and therefore only air is insulating. IMHO full foam is a better insulator. My vote is for the Sundance. And the person using that "Heatlock" term may also be using the "transferable warranty" term with equal liberty. Doesn't make it right, it simply makes it "what they said". Get warranty coverage IN WRITTING BEFORE you give them a deposit.
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The term "Heatlock" is simply a marketing term. It's a thermal barrier design. It doesn't REALLY "lock heat in". Thermal barrier designs are fine when the pumps run alot (read as pumps running more often requires more electricity and therefore a higher cost than a full foam spa) but that is not necessarily a better design than a full foam spa (like the sundance). Here's something to consider in your environment... What happens when the power fails (for days on end)? The full foam WILL keep the water warmer longer (simply due to the physics as it has more insulation). The thermal barrier uses air to insulate and pump heat to augment that area. No pump operation, no heat augmentation and therefore only air is insulating. IMHO full foam is a better insulator. My vote is for the Sundance. And the person using that "Heatlock" term may also be using the "transferable warranty" term with equal liberty. Doesn't make it right, it simply makes it "what they said". Get warranty coverage IN WRITTING BEFORE you give them a deposit.
The person using the term "heatlock" was me, simply because that is what Arctic calls it, and I had no claim about the warranty. This thread is going to end up in the dogfood, AKA Dead Horse forum if you turn this into a TP vs FF debate. There is no proof that one is better than the other, or more cost effective; everyone has an opinion here, and everyone is RIGHT, right????.
Kirby- go with the wet test. Buy the one that you LIKE BEST. When you are happy soaking in your comfy tub, it wont matter anymore how it is insulated.
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Here's the Arctic warranty:
http://www.arcticspas.com/index.php/en/show_content/37/37/&show_warranty=29
Notice that the Lifetime shell warranty applies to "the customer", but the other parts of the tub specifically say they apply to "the original owner."
Perhaps- and this would just be my guess- the shell warranty can be transferred, but the mechanicals are warranted for the original owner only. In that sense, they can claim that the warranty is transferable. That sounds just "lawyerese" enough to make sense.
I've heard the "7.5 years = lifetime" warranty thing before- I have no idea whether it's true or not, but it's not applicable in this case. No part of the Sundance warranty has a "lifetime", all parts of the warranty are for a specific number of years.
This is not to knock Arctic at all - it just sounds like a lot of the "features" you mentioned might be marketing tools that the Arctic salespeople pointed out to you, and not necessarily useful ways to compare these two spas.
IMHO, I'd wet test, and buy the one that feels the best to you. There's no reason to compare warranties if you end up buying a tub you don't like very much. After that, though, both Arctic and Sundance are reputable brands - all things being equal I'd buy the one that's brand new and comes with a warranty that covers the whole tub.
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The term "Heatlock" is simply a marketing term. It's a thermal barrier design. It doesn't REALLY "lock heat in". Thermal barrier designs are fine when the pumps run alot (read as pumps running more often requires more electricity and therefore a higher cost than a full foam spa) but that is not necessarily a better design than a full foam spa (like the sundance). Here's something to consider in your environment... What happens when the power fails (for days on end)? The full foam WILL keep the water warmer longer (simply due to the physics as it has more insulation). The thermal barrier uses air to insulate and pump heat to augment that area. No pump operation, no heat augmentation and therefore only air is insulating. IMHO full foam is a better insulator. My vote is for the Sundance. And the person using that "Heatlock" term may also be using the "transferable warranty" term with equal liberty. Doesn't make it right, it simply makes it "what they said". Get warranty coverage IN WRITTING BEFORE you give them a deposit.
I'd like to clarify this a bit bunka, theres a certain amount of plumbing on a FF spa that is outside the insulation. This plumbing outside the insulation WILL freeze faster than the plumbing on the Thermal Barrier type of insulation skeem the Arctic brand uses as long as it is a good TP barrier and relitivly air tight. The heat transfered from the vessel to the cabinet air space will help to protect the plumbing longer, but it will also allow a quicker drop in overall vessel temp.
My words are....regardless of the insulation method you will need to remedy any possible freeze situation ASAP. And a small heater or trouble light can extend your down time but, YOU STILL NEED TO REMEDY ANY POWER DOWN SITUATION ASAP with any brand or insulation method.
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Its a simple question answer what will freeze first, a pump/motor sitting outside at -30 or a thermos with hot water in it? a pump outside with freeze in 3-4 hours. A thermos will take days to freeze. Also if you do have a freeze up where you can not get a service person out, you can put a small heat source in the cavity of the TP and close the door. This you can not do on a Full foam.
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Also if you do have a freeze up where you can not get a service person out, you can put a small heat source in the cavity of the TP and close the door. This you can not do on a Full foam.
Why can you not put a small heat source in the equipment/non foamed area of a "full foam" spa?
Here we go again!
The original question was should one buy a used Arctic for more money than a new Sundance.
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Its a simple question answer...
Welcome to the forum, perogie!:)
Since you are new here, you'd have no reason to know that this issue has been discussed ad nauseum (ndabunka, what's your excuse? ;)). Now that we've had equal time FF/TP, perhaps we can move on. Most threads addressing TP/FF have ended up in the "Beating a Dead Horse" section. Look them over, and if you have something new to add, please revive one, or start a new thread here. Lord knows we could use some new controversy, but I doubt it would help Kirby make a decision in this thread. :)
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sorry for the bad post... kirbey had asked about cold weather and I live in winnipeg manitoba so we have cold weather. To answer the question of why you can't put a heater in a foam filled, i should have qualified my statement better... if you go to work at 8am, and power goes out at 9am... and you dont get home till 5pm.... and the power problem with the tub hasnt been fixed then the pump sitting out side at -30 for 8 hours will have froze and mostly cracked. So you might not have much water in the tub.
Now to help kirbey...
one tub is 7' the other is 8'
one tub is at the max for jets, the other has the potential to be upgraded to 61 jets.
one tub has a fully structured floor that can be placed on any level ground, I'm not sure for sundance what the base requirements are, but most other makes of tubs require a concrete pad.
one tub has the ability to upgrade to new features that might come out.
just somethings to think about, but the main thing is that which ever tub you buy make sure you sit in them either wet or dry to make sure the tub gives you the comfort you are looking for and the massage of the jets is where you want it.
you never buy a pair of shoes without trying them on.
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so it boils down to the wet test and the size thats right for you. we have a sundance maxxus and love it. we did wet test a few before arriving at our decision. it really made our minds up. also someone said something about the sundance not cycling on and off. i do believe ours does.
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sorry for the bad post... kirbey had asked about cold weather and I live in winnipeg manitoba so we have cold weather. To answer the question of why you can't put a heater in a foam filled, i should have qualified my statement better... if you go to work at 8am, and power goes out at 9am... and you dont get home till 5pm.... and the power problem with the tub hasnt been fixed then the pump sitting out side at -30 for 8 hours will have froze and mostly cracked. So you might not have much water in the tub.
Now to help kirbey...
one tub is 7' the other is 8'
one tub is at the max for jets, the other has the potential to be upgraded to 61 jets.
one tub has a fully structured floor that can be placed on any level ground, I'm not sure for sundance what the base requirements are, but most other makes of tubs require a concrete pad.
one tub has the ability to upgrade to new features that might come out.
just somethings to think about, but the main thing is that which ever tub you buy make sure you sit in them either wet or dry to make sure the tub gives you the comfort you are looking for and the massage of the jets is where you want it.
you never buy a pair of shoes without trying them on.
You're sounding very much like an Arctic salesman.
If I lived in such a severe environment, I would add some styrofoam panels to the cabinet of the equipment compartment and create an equipment compartment "heatlock" that could be removed in more temperate seasons. Probably not necessary but extremely easy to do and may give peace of mind.
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Its a simple question answer what will freeze first, a pump/motor sitting outside at -30 or a thermos with hot water in it? a pump outside with freeze in 3-4 hours. A thermos will take days to freeze. Also if you do have a freeze up where you can not get a service person out, you can put a small heat source in the cavity of the TP and close the door. This you can not do on a Full foam.
What spa employs the same principles as Thermos? Did the salesman give you the "Thermos" analogy?
A "Thermos" seal is a vacumm seal. A hermeticly seal unit. A Heat lock system (theraml pane) does not insulate this way. Quite the opposite.
A thermal system insualtes by keeping the air inside the cabinet at a high temperature, as close to or greater than the desire water temp. The Heat lock system keeps the air warm by running the jet pumps several times a day. It's a system that overly depends on the pump motors working a heck of lot. Lose you electricty and the very heart of your insulation system is lost. Foam is not dependant on electricity to maintian it's insulation ability.
A heat lock system will freeze quicker than a full foam if the integrity of the "thermal barrier" is lost. (How long will your coffee stay hot if you break your thermos seal?
That being said, a high quality thermal tub can insualte just as well as Full foam. There are differences in how the pumps run, but for the most part, among higher end tubs, it's a non issue for insulation.
Then again, if by "Thermos" you didn't actually mean the "Thermos" vacuum seal, but used the word to descibe any type of insulated bottle, say a Coleman bottle, or cooler, then perhaps you are right, as those are insualted with a dense foam. ;)
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sorry for the bad post...
There are no bad posts, only bad posters...wait...hate the post, not the poster...I get so confused. ;) :) It wasn't a bad post, just one that could open a can of worms.
As you can see, the insulation question can go on an on, as there is always someone who knows that with the addition of their explanation, the issue will be settled in their favor. ::);) The same is true for reciting any company's marketing points. You can't put them out there as superior without expecting another brand to counter them, so nothing gets resolved. IMO, if you think a particular feature is something that might be useful in the situation being discussed, it is fine to raise it -- as long as it is presented in a fashion that acknowledges it isn't the only valid way of doing things. :)
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I have checked into it and they do transfer the warranty. Thanks.
From Arctic:
5 years to the original owner [size=14][/size]
If someone told it was transferable I would ask to see it in writing.
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Here's the Arctic warranty:
http://www.arcticspas.com/index.php/en/show_content/37/37/&show_warranty=29
Notice that the Lifetime shell warranty applies to "the customer", but the other parts of the tub specifically say they apply to "the original owner."
Perhaps- and this would just be my guess- the shell warranty can be transferred, but the mechanicals are warranted for the original owner only. In that sense, they can claim that the warranty is transferable. That sounds just "lawyerese" enough to make sense.
I've heard the "7.5 years = lifetime" warranty thing before- I have no idea whether it's true or not, but it's not applicable in this case. No part of the Sundance warranty has a "lifetime", all parts of the warranty are for a specific number of years.
This is not to knock Arctic at all - it just sounds like a lot of the "features" you mentioned might be marketing tools that the Arctic salespeople pointed out to you, and not necessarily useful ways to compare these two spas.
IMHO, I'd wet test, and buy the one that feels the best to you. There's no reason to compare warranties if you end up buying a tub you don't like very much. After that, though, both Arctic and Sundance are reputable brands - all things being equal I'd buy the one that's brand new and comes with a warranty that covers the whole tub.
I will knock them, any spa company that puts a lifetime warranty on the structure is not worth the paper it is written on. They fiberglass their shells, the fiberglass is the structure not the shell, you can see they only cover the shell for five years. It is misleading, as most people will only remember the the lifetime part. 10 years down the road if your shell is cracked and you call Arctic, they will ask you "is it leaking through the fiberglass" and when you say no. They will so sorry that is not part of the lifetime warranty.
I would not buy or recommend and Arctic for that one reasons, makes me think what else are they BSing on.
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Dadgum ya'll, this is a DISCUSSION FORUM, not a board meeting. This is a venue to offer opinions and respond to challenges from the other folks on here with intimate knowledge regarding the particular subject. Come one, come all, throw it out there, defend your point, challenge others, let the people who come here seeking information decide for themselves who is more credible.
This isn't a goat-smelling nanny state where adults have to be coddled. I sincerely hope that the fine folks who populate this forum are the types to engage in rugged individualism and make their own decisions.
Terminator
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I will knock them, any spa company that puts a lifetime warranty on the structure is not worth the paper it is written on. They fiberglass their shells, the fiberglass is the structure not the shell, you can see they only cover the shell for five years. It is misleading, as most people will only remember the the lifetime part. 10 years down the road if your shell is cracked and you call Arctic, they will ask you "is it leaking through the fiberglass" and when you say no. They will so sorry that is not part of the lifetime warranty.
I would not buy or recommend and Arctic for that one reasons, makes me think what else are they BSing on.
I'm having a little trouble following you, since this sentence does not make sense: "They fiberglass their shells, the fiberglass is the structure not the shell, you can see they only cover the shell for five years."
The lifetime warranty says " Warrants the spa shell to the customer against water loss due to structural failure..." The 5 year SURFACE warranty is about blistering/peeling/delaminating- has nothing to do with leakage.
What is BS? What are you knocking?
I will also agree that if there is an offer for transfer of warranty Kirby has been promised that I'd get it in writing not from just the dealer (who may change businesses or locations) but also from Arctic central. It is pretty clear in my manual: "extend only to original consumer purchaser of spa if purchased and originally installed within the boundaries of Canada and the United States."
Any luck wet testing, Kirby?
I had forgotten about the upgrade capacity of the Arctic. Want to convert your Signature series to a Legend? Just add jets! That has some appeal too, but the cost could be high.
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Hello all, I see some arguments never die over here! I've decided to pull myself out of a heated discussion on the corn burning stove forum I frequent to address what I see as some non factual information on Thermolock or heat lock insulating systems.
Hey Kirby,
As others have said, both Sundance and Artic have very good reputations. And although one employs full foam, and the other a thermolock design, for the most part, both of these tubs properly working with a good cover will cost/provide very similliar insualtion rates. So I wound't let that be the deciding factor. For me the big differenance is the Artic will be cycing on and off during the day, while the full foams dosent.
I sell both Jacuzzi/full foam and Coleman/thermolock spas in the great fridgid state of North Dakota.
Why would a well designed thermolock spa be cycling on and off all day? In a Coleman spa the number one jet pump is hooked to the heater. This pump is also the pump that is used during filtation cycles which can be programed for any time and length. All spas need to filter whether it be through the jet pimps or a circ pump thats fact not fluff.
In the winter months I have my Coleman set to filter from 7:30PM to midnight the second filter cycle is set for 4:30AM to 8:30AM. I know for a fact that my spa recaptures waste heat from the pumps when they are running so why not kill two birds with one stone and set the filtration cycle around the coldest part of the night.
Two nights ago we had temps of -34 below without wind chill. I was up at 3:30AM using the little girls room. My spa sits outside the bathroom window and I can hear the pumps when they run. At the coldest part of the night which was -34 my spa was not calling for heat.
Now lets talk about a full foam spa like Jacuzzi. They use a 24 hour circ pump for filtation and heat. Although this system does allow the spa to recapture some heat most of it is allowed to escape thought venting needed in the cabinet to keep the equipment running cooler. Now if I had a Jacuzzi outside my bathroom window of course I wouldn't realize that anything was different because the circ pump would be running 24/7 like it's intended to do. However If I were to brave -34 and walk out to check the topside on that spa my guess is that the heat light would be on.
Both Jacuzzi and Coleman spas are very efficent spas. In our North Dakota winters we can't find a notable difference in energy useage between the two brands.
Sorry I got so long winded, but I just had to share some first hand knowlege, for what it's worth......
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i recieved the answer from sundance today about proper spa foundations, here is there responce.
Preparing A Good Foundation
Your spa needs a solid foundation. The area that your spa sits on must be able to support the weight of the spa, the water in it and those who use it.
If the foundation is inadequate, it may shift or settle after the spa is in place.
NOTE: Damage caused by inadequate or improper foundation support is not covered by the spa warranty. It is the responsibility of the
spa owner to provide a proper foundation for the spa. Example: free standing bricks, gravel, pavers, plywood, and railroad ties are not
considered proper foundations.
Place the spa on an elevated foundation so that water drains away from it. Proper drainage will keep components dry from rain and wet weather.
A spa filled with water is heavy. If you are installing your spa on an elevated wood deck or other structure, it is advisable to consult a structural
engineer or contractor to ensure that the structure will support the weight. It is strongly recommended that a qualified, licensed contractor prepare
the foundation for your spa. There is a 4” minimum depth required for a concrete pad. If you are installing your spa indoors, pay close attention to
the flooring beneath it. Remember, a spa filled with water can cause moisture damage. Choose flooring that won’t be spoiled or stained. See page
23 for the average filled weight and overall dimensions for your spa.
Your Sundance retailer can help you with foundations and more
Your Sundance retailer has a wealth of information and experience about how to get the most out of your Sundance spa. Ask your retailer to see
the Sundance Idea Book to view creative spa decorating and a wide range of installations. Your Sundance retailer also has a full line of accessories,
surround kits, and gazebos that are engineered to compliment your Sundance spa. They also offer several factory approved aftermarket foundation
products that are specifically designed for spa use and allow for installation without concrete.
So there is an added expence with the sundance to make sure you have it on a proper foundation.
otherwize your warranty is void.
Arctic's only spefication is level ground.
With the warranty issues on the shell. If the arcylic cracks or blisters or whatever and does not cause a loss of water. in any tub this is easy to fix. All company's have a 5 year warranty on these happening.
But the difference that comes in is that Arctic offers a "lifetime warranty" on the fiberglass structure. Not a 5 year warranty. the reason is below.
arcylic has no structure strength to support the water and people. that is why every company needs to bond something to the arcylic to give strength. There are many different ways of doing this.
1) twice hand rolled fiberglass with 100% neat resin. this produces a self-supporting hull
2)some fiberglass and some foam(1 inch)
3)some fiberglass and 4 inches of foam
4) some figerglass and 100% foamed cavity.
1- does not need a structured foundation to put the spa on.
2-4 all need some form of structure foundation for the spa warranty.
Fiberglass cracks do to flex, just like when you want to break a thin piece of metal.. you flex it back and forth and it eventualy cracks. So if you prevent flexing you prevent cracking. That is why the other company's require a structured foundation to prevent flex.
Foam is cheaper than fiberglass.
for my asking about a thermos and pump sitting outside.
I was not saying an arctic was a thermos. I was just asking what would freeze first... a thermos with water in it or a pump with water in it at -30. we know the answer is pump and quickly.
both FF and TP spas water will take days to freeze. and yes the water in the FF may outlast the TP. But both of these are cases where you have insulated the water. TP also insulates the pump. FF tubs do not come standard with pump insulation protection. I agree that FF company's should provide their customers with feature they could purchase to protect the pumps from the cold.
Now for the comment on "no pumps running not heating"
My coleman friend said it best. We are recovering pump waste heat. I do not know the exact number but its at least 30% of the power of the motor that is lost through heat. So since pump 1 on coleman and arctic tubs is what is used for filtration. You can set the filtration from 0-8 hours a day. most of the time the 8 hours of filtration will produce enough heat so the heater is on activated. So its a bonus feature of these spas. I'm not saying that FF are bad or worse.
Where this can also help is when you flip the lid and even out all spas. Once the lid is open the heat is leaving. and it doesnt matter well insulated underneath. But if you are in the tub running 2=hp pumps on high speed you will have 2kw of heating power helping you keep your water warm... This means the power hungry 5.5Kw heater will no activate as quickly. The less the 5.5Kw heater runs the less power you will use.
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Here we go again. Another A$$hole selling Arctics. Just when Arctic was starting to get some credibiltiy here we get more idiot sales BS from an Arctic salesman. And I thought we were beyond this.
I apologize to all the decent Arctic owners here. You don't need bad salesmanship tarnishing a good spa.
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I'm having a little trouble following you, since this sentence does not make sense: "They fiberglass their shells, the fiberglass is the structure not the shell, you can see they only cover the shell for five years."
The lifetime warranty says " Warrants the spa shell to the customer against water loss due to structural failure..." The 5 year SURFACE warranty is about blistering/peeling/delaminating- has nothing to do with leakage.
What is BS? What are you knocking?
Anne,
What is BS is what less educated, less sophisticated shoppers hear from salespeople, [glow]Lifetime Warranty[/glow]. Without proper disclosure, shoppers will often think the shell warranty covers the acrylic as well as the fiberglass.
The lifetime warranty provided by a manufacturer may or may not be worth the paper it is written on. But, it opens up an avenue for deceptive selling.
I would be curious if anyone has ever collected on a lifetime warranty from a spa manufacturer on a spa more than 5 years old and what it really ended up costing.
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i recieved the answer from sundance today about proper spa foundations, here is there responce.
Preparing A Good Foundation
Your spa needs a solid foundation. The area that your spa sits on must be able to support the weight of the spa, the water in it and those who use it.
If the foundation is inadequate, it may shift or settle after the spa is in place.
NOTE: Damage caused by inadequate or improper foundation support is not covered by the spa warranty. It is the responsibility of the
spa owner to provide a proper foundation for the spa. Example: free standing bricks, gravel, pavers, plywood, and railroad ties are not
considered proper foundations.
Place the spa on an elevated foundation so that water drains away from it. Proper drainage will keep components dry from rain and wet weather.
A spa filled with water is heavy. If you are installing your spa on an elevated wood deck or other structure, it is advisable to consult a structural
engineer or contractor to ensure that the structure will support the weight. It is strongly recommended that a qualified, licensed contractor prepare
the foundation for your spa. There is a 4” minimum depth required for a concrete pad. If you are installing your spa indoors, pay close attention to
the flooring beneath it. Remember, a spa filled with water can cause moisture damage. Choose flooring that won’t be spoiled or stained. See page
23 for the average filled weight and overall dimensions for your spa.
Your Sundance retailer can help you with foundations and more
Your Sundance retailer has a wealth of information and experience about how to get the most out of your Sundance spa. Ask your retailer to see
the Sundance Idea Book to view creative spa decorating and a wide range of installations. Your Sundance retailer also has a full line of accessories,
surround kits, and gazebos that are engineered to compliment your Sundance spa. They also offer several factory approved aftermarket foundation
products that are specifically designed for spa use and allow for installation without concrete.
So there is an added expence with the sundance to make sure you have it on a proper foundation.
otherwize your warranty is void.
Arctic's only spefication is level ground.
With the warranty issues on the shell. If the arcylic cracks or blisters or whatever and does not cause a loss of water. in any tub this is easy to fix. All company's have a 5 year warranty on these happening.
But the difference that comes in is that Arctic offers a "lifetime warranty" on the fiberglass structure. Not a 5 year warranty. the reason is below.
arcylic has no structure strength to support the water and people. that is why every company needs to bond something to the arcylic to give strength. There are many different ways of doing this.
1) twice hand rolled fiberglass with 100% neat resin. this produces a self-supporting hull
2)some fiberglass and some foam(1 inch)
3)some fiberglass and 4 inches of foam
4) some figerglass and 100% foamed cavity.
1- does not need a structured foundation to put the spa on.
2-4 all need some form of structure foundation for the spa warranty.
Fiberglass cracks do to flex, just like when you want to break a thin piece of metal.. you flex it back and forth and it eventualy cracks. So if you prevent flexing you prevent cracking. That is why the other company's require a structured foundation to prevent flex.
Foam is cheaper than fiberglass.
for my asking about a thermos and pump sitting outside.
I was not saying an arctic was a thermos. I was just asking what would freeze first... a thermos with water in it or a pump with water in it at -30. we know the answer is pump and quickly.
both FF and TP spas water will take days to freeze. and yes the water in the FF may outlast the TP. But both of these are cases where you have insulated the water. TP also insulates the pump. FF tubs do not come standard with pump insulation protection. I agree that FF company's should provide their customers with feature they could purchase to protect the pumps from the cold.
Now for the comment on "no pumps running not heating"
My coleman friend said it best. We are recovering pump waste heat. I do not know the exact number but its at least 30% of the power of the motor that is lost through heat. So since pump 1 on coleman and arctic tubs is what is used for filtration. You can set the filtration from 0-8 hours a day. most of the time the 8 hours of filtration will produce enough heat so the heater is on activated. So its a bonus feature of these spas. I'm not saying that FF are bad or worse.
Where this can also help is when you flip the lid and even out all spas. Once the lid is open the heat is leaving. and it doesnt matter well insulated underneath. But if you are in the tub running 2=hp pumps on high speed you will have 2kw of heating power helping you keep your water warm... This means the power hungry 5.5Kw heater will no activate as quickly. The less the 5.5Kw heater runs the less power you will use.
Perogie,
Unless you're married to Fergie, please keep all your sh!t to yourself.
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i recieved the answer from sundance...
Perogie, I found it interesting that you made sure to capitalize A****c, while not capitalizing the competition. You may want to refine your sales spiel. Attempting to sell the fiberglass shell backing as the reason your tub doesn't need a prepared base is a crock. If you put your tub on unprepared ground, without its "forever floor", and one corner sinks, the wieght of the water in the tub will rip your second layer of fiberglass apart. The floor and strong shell are good features, but know which benefit goes with each.
Tom/Graybeard, if you happen upon this thread, you may want to consider requesting that your salespeople stay away, and let the satisfied owners continue to build your reputation. It seems every time someone who has imbibed in the A****c kool-aid gets on they can't help but go overboard and show the way you teach them to bash the competition while selling your features.
On a positive note, if perogie hangs around, a bull-slinging contest with Term might be fun to watch. :)
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I'm sorry, but I find the last few replies very rude! Why is it that certain well known posters/spa saleman on this forum can drone on and one about what they see as the benifits of the brand of spa they sell and claim they have " the best filtration/technology/insulation in the industry" and thats fine. But when an Arctic or Cal spa salesperson posts, they get attacked, insulted, and bereated.
So what if all other spas have to be put on a base except Arctic. How many people will plop a $10,000 down in the dirt, get real, Show me one spa saleperson on this forum that doesn't push a feature thats unique to the brand of spa they sell, and tout it as a benifit over the competition.
You want us around to help with install, chemical, electrical and did I pay too much questions but when we do what we do which is sell....we're sleeze bag salespeople.
And why is it that Arctic salespeople get treated so badly. There's more than one spa manufacturer that serves koolaid to their salespeople....I've been around this forum for a long time and even though there are many happy satisfied Arctic spa owners posting here...,Arctic dealers don't stay long because of the abuse they receive.
I for one think the diverse group of posters with years of knowlege on this forum is what makes it what it is. It doesn't matter if your an owner or a dealer. The knowlege you bring to this forum about hot tubs is valuble, and deserves respect.
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For the extra 800 dollars you get 2 years more warrenty on the 780 series. You also goto a circ pump instead of using pump 1. I sell more burlingtons than Caymans. Wet test both, some people prefer the cayman some prefer the Pillowless style of the burlington.
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Did Perogie, son of Muskogee, ever say that he was an Arctic salesperson? If he is, he should proudly proclaim it to the world.
Be not ashamed of your brand...yea, shout it from the mountaintop with dignity and pride and the people shall be yours....should you make a lick of sense.
Term