Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: NorthWoodsDipper on February 15, 2007, 10:13:55 pm
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Who uses an outdoor clock? Where did you find it? I am searching the net for one that is made for outdoors, but still looks good with my deck decor. This one has a thermometer on the other side, which is cool. - http://www.amazon.com/Infinity-Instruments-Charleston-Outdoor-Thermometer-Rust/dp/B000IRQ7CK .
I always end up wondering what time it is and if I have "just 10 more minutes" left. Often I end up rushing or being late for appointments because I stayed in just a bit too long...
Thoughts?
Steven-
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oooooooooooooooooooooo, I like that one. I have one of these..
(http://www.rhtubs.com/store/images/terracotta-clock.jpg)
There's a matching thermometer as well...... Though, mine blew down and broke to pieces in a storm...... Gotta remember to grab another from the shipping department ::)
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This brings up a question..Don't most tubs have a clock? Otherwise how can you set the times of your filtration cycles?..Just wondering
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oooooooooooooooooooooo, I like that one. I have one of these..
(http://www.rhtubs.com/store/images/terracotta-clock.jpg)
There's a matching thermometer as well...... Though, mine blew down and broke to pieces in a storm...... Gotta remember to grab another from the shipping department ::)
Hey, I LIKE the one you have. Where did you find it? Trouble is I already have a sun on my house and one on my chimnea. So it might be too cutsie having 3 suns.
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This brings up a question..Don't most tubs have a clock? Otherwise how can you set the times of your filtration cycles?..Just wondering
That is a good question. My Arctic does not. I asked my salesman why a $9000 spa would not have a clock, since it has the display. I think that is something that should be on a spa.
Do other brands have a clock?
Steven-
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I know Sams Club has had outdoor clocks from time to time!
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Hey, I LIKE the one you have. Where did you find it? Trouble is I already have a sun on my house and one on my chimnea. So it might be too cutsie having 3 suns.
I'm not supposed to do this, BUT I REALLY do have one by my hot tub...(Bill, tell Sonny I owe him a commission).
http://www.rhtubs.com/store/miscacc.htm
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NWD, I think this one will look great on your deck. 8-)
http://www.amazon.com/Infinity-Instruments-Charleston-Outdoor-Thermometer-Rust/dp/B000IRQ7CK
(http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r165/tileman_photos/B000IRQ7CK.jpg)
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http://www.amazon.com
or one of my favorites EBAY
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NWD, I think this one will look great on your deck. 8-)
http://www.amazon.com/Infinity-Instruments-Charleston-Outdoor-Thermometer-Rust/dp/B000IRQ7CK
(http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r165/tileman_photos/B000IRQ7CK.jpg)
Yup, that is the one I found that I like so far...
It swivels, so if I turn it just perfectly, I will be able to see the time from the spa, and the temp from the house.
Steven-
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That is a good question. My Arctic does not. I asked my salesman why a $9000 spa would not have a clock, since it has the display. I think that is something that should be on a spa.
Do other brands have a clock?
Steven-
My Sundance has a clock.
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This brings up a question..Don't most tubs have a clock? Otherwise how can you set the times of your filtration cycles?..Just wondering
Mine doesn't. After having bought a few clocks, I found a great one. (pick on with a white face, it makes it easier to see if you have no other lights on. A friend bought two off some website (I'll search for it) they are auto setting sync'd to the atomic clock analog clocks about 12" in diamater.
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you probably already thought about it....
but remember alot of times you will be
soaking at night so you may want to
consider a clock that is self-lit or you
can always direct a malibu light towards
the clock....but a spotlight on a clock would make
the clock really stand out and I would think the clock
with a simple glow would be preferable.
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you probably already thought about it....
but remember alot of times you will be
soaking at night so you may want to
consider a clock that is self-lit or you
can always direct a malibu light towards
the clock....but a spotlight on a clock would make
the clock really stand out and I would think the clock
with a simple glow would be preferable.
Good point, however at night I have no commitments and can soak until I am a prune, or my Killians runs out..
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ya know i have been looking around on the internet and
have been unable to find what I think would be best for you.
you seem like a guy that likes to customize and
not just take whats offered off the shelf...
[size=10](I'm that way too except I cant do the work myself...
i can barely figure out how to put gas in my car!)[/size]
didn't you say your support beams are hollow for wiring?
I wonder if you could get a small digital clock with like a
blue read-out.....cut a small rectangle hole in the pole..
wire the clock... then have a digital clock with soft blue
readout recessed into one of your pergola support poles?
you could even place it where it could only be seen if
you are sitting in the tub.
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000IB0J20.01-A22OHGFXYKANTQ._SCMZZZZZZZ_V41642171_.jpg)
(a smaller version of this)
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That is a good question. My Arctic does not. I asked my salesman why a $9000 spa would not have a clock, since it has the display. I think that is something that should be on a spa.
Do other brands have a clock?
Steven-
Yup, mine does. How can you set the filtration programs without one?
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Some of us don't have to set filtration programs...or timers....or heating cycles....just set the temperature and relaxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx..x..........become one with the water and the starsssssss.........
Termmmmmm................
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Huh? Seriously, how can you set the filtration cycles if you don't have a clock? I guess I am really dumb...I don't get it.
Are there tubs that don't have the option to set the filtration cycles?
I'm not trying to start anything, I am just asking :-?
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HotSpring and Tiger River Spas filter continuously 24/7. There is nothing to program.
All you do is set your temperature......and that's it. It's always hot, clean, and ready to go. :)
I'm sure there are some other spas as easy to operate....aren't there?
Term
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This brings up a question..Don't most tubs have a clock? Otherwise how can you set the times of your filtration cycles?..Just wondering
Bonnie the only tubs that have filter cycles are the Thermal syle tubs. Running the pumps does help clean the water, but the pumps are run primarly to generate heat for the cabinet.
Full foam tubs have a circ pump that continualy moves the water and the only time the pumps are turned on are when you want them. Did you not pay attention while we were all beating the poor horse to death? I could have sworn I saw you with a stick in your hand. ;) :)
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Bonnie the only tubs that have filter cycles are the Thermal syle tubs. Running the pumps does help clean the water, but the pumps are run primarly to generate heat for the cabinet.
I don't think that is accurate. First of all, TP tubs don't run the pumps for the purpose of generating heat, they just are constructed to capture the heat that is given off when the pumps are operated. Second, some FF tubs use jet pumps to filter, not circ pumps. Finally, I believe some tubs combine both a circ pump and extra jet pump filter cycles.
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I don't think that is accurate. First of all, TP tubs don't run the pumps for the purpose of generating heat, they just are constructed to capture the heat that is given off when the pumps are operated. Second, some FF tubs use jet pumps to filter, not circ pumps. Finally, I believe some tubs combine both a circ pump and extra jet pump filter cycles.
Yes, FF tubs do use the jet pumps for filtration, during a short clean up cycle. So, yes they are used for filtration, but only for short widely disperesed times. Not timed cycles.
TP do run the pumps to generate heat. Absolutely. I would guess the electrical usage (runing the heater) would go up significanlty if you took a TP tub in the dead of winter and set the filtration cycles to minimum, if not all the way off. TP tubs depend on the larger pumps running to insulate. It's not a ancillary component of the insulation system, but a primary one.
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Yes, FF tubs do use the jet pumps for filtration, during a short clean up cycle. So, yes they are used for filtration, but only for short widely disperesed times. Not timed cycles.
TP do run the pumps to generate heat. Absolutely.
Sorry, but I respectfully (for now ;)) disagree on both counts. I believe that some FF tubs run timed filter cycles utilizing 2 speed jet pumps (?Marquis, Sundance?). I would also be surprised to learn that any of the reputable TP manufacturers state that they run the pumps for the main purpose of generating heat. I'm pretty sure they view it as a byproduct.
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Sorry, but I think you are wrong on both counts. I believe that some FF tubs run timed filter cycles utilizing 2 speed jet pumps (?Marquis, Sundance?). I would also be surprised to learn that any of the reputable TP manufacturers state that they run the pumps for the main purpose of generating heat. I'm pretty sure they view it as a byproduct.
I can't speak to the timed cycles on all full foam tubs as an absolute definate, so I'll concede that.
But as far as the pumps running to generate heat in a tp tub, I stand by what I said. It's critical to the system.
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I can't speak to the timed cycles on all full foam tubs as an absolute definate, so I'll concede that.
But as far as the pumps running to generate heat in a tp tub, I stand by what I said. It's critical to the system.
Now you're only half wrong. ;) Can you point me to something that backs up your "run the pumps for heat" claim? The only tub I've ever seen claim to heat with waste heat is a Softub, where they encase the pump in a jacket to capture the heat. Is is possible you are confused by the fact that in a tub without a circ pump -- when heat is called for, a jet pump comes on to circulate water past the heater?
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(http://www.amgmedia.com/freephotos/fosil-watch.jpg)
8-)
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Drew and Term, My tub does have filter cycles (I have no circ pump).
So I have the ability to set my filtration cycles for the time of day that I want the filtration to occur and the duration of the filtration cycles. Marquis has the smart clean cycle that automatically begins a filtration cycle ( the duration is also variable)..about 1/2 hour after you soak. So if I knew I was having company, I might bump my clean cycle up to 2 hours...(depending on who the company was) ;D
Getting back to the clock ...I love having a clock in the tub as well as a timer. The timer lets the kids know when they are "well done" and eliminates any arguments about when the tub get turned over to the adults. ;)
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Now you're only half wrong. ;) Can you point me to something that backs up your "run the pumps for heat" claim? The only tub I've ever seen claim to heat with waste heat is a Softub, where they encase the pump in a jacket to capture the heat. Is is possible you are confused by the fact that in a tub without a circ pump -- when heat is called for, a jet pump comes on to circulate water past the heater?
Reese, drop the circ pump for a moment. Ok?
A Thermal pane tub depends on heat from the pumps to maintain a warm air barrier in the cabinet. Do you disagree with that?
If you do disagree, please explain to me how you belive a TP tub insulates.
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Dear Reese,
http://arcticspastl.com/heat%20lock.html
Each Arctic Spa comes with our Perimeter HeatLock Insulation system, designed to minimize heat loss and to maximize energy efficiency. Once the spa shell is placed into the cabinet, high density insulating urethane foam is applied to the floor, cabinet walls, doors and the spa rim underside. This creates a sealed dead air space similar to that found in most houses in the Northern U.S.A. and Canada.Unlike most spas, the equipment, heater and pumps of an Arctic Spa are positioned inside this insulated area.
This maximizes energy efficiency, shields against mechanical noise and protects equipment from freezing. The incidental (waste) heat that all motors and heaters produce is trapped in this sealed air space and naturally transferred through the spa shell, directly heating the spa water. Recovering waste heat from the motors and heaters significantly reduces the overall heating costs of Arctic Spas. Other spas direct this ambient heat outward to the environment.This captured heat within the Perimeter HeatLock system also acts as a secure protection against freezing in sub-zero temperatures. If power to your spa is interrupted, heat from the spa water slowly transfers back into the insulated air space, protecting the plumbing and equipment from freeze-up. Even at 40 degrees below zero, your spa water will stay above freezing for days and your equipment would be protected from freezing.
Sounds like it designed to depend on heat from the motors, no? In order for that dead air space not to draw heat away from the water and shell, the dead air space must be kept at an equal or greater temperature than the water. Anything lower will draw the heat from the water. It's warm air that insualtes the water, not really "Dead" air.
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Reese, drop the circ pump for a moment. Ok?
A Thermal pane tub depends on heat from the pumps to maintain a warm air barrier in the cabinet. Do you disagree with that?
If you do disagree, please explain to me how you belive a TP tub insulates.
I did drop the circ pump issue after you conceded, that's how you got to "half-wrong". ;)
I think we agree on how TP insulates. One distinction is the that Arctic Heatlock system you quoted is not classic thermopane (think Coleman, Master, etc) but a hybrid FF/TP, as the exterior of the cabinet is insulated with a thick sprayed blanket similar to a FF application, with nothing at all on the shell/pipes. TP usually has a light coating on the shell and styrofoam panels on the cabinet. The air trapped in between is the "thermopane". That really doesn't matter, as the point of of disagreement seems to be whether the fact that thermopane/heatlock attempts to capture and utilize waste heat implies that they run the pumps in order to generate heat (your stated contention) or if it is a byproduct of other necessary operations (my position). IMO attempting to capture incidental (waste) heat in order to reduce heating costs is different than your initial statement that "pumps are run primarily to generate heat for the cabinet".
I own a FF tub with a circ pump, so I don't have any skin in the TP/jet pump heat issue, I just didn't want to leave your (IMO) inaccurate statements unchallenged. Although interesting for some of us, FF/TP discussions tend to hijack threads. We are a long way from outdoor clocks. My apologies, Northwoods. :-[
p.s. We mounted a simple metal wall clock from IKEA on the house for our outdoor timekeeping. It cost less than $20, but doesn't look cheap -- and runs/looks like new a year later.
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....the point of of disagreement seems to be whether the fact that thermopane/heatlock attempts to capture and utilize waste heat implies that they run the pumps in order to generate heat (your stated contention) or if it is a byproduct of other necessary operations (my position). IMO attempting to capture waste heat in order to reduce heating costs is different than your initial statement that "pumps are run primarily to generate heat for the cabinet".
I own a FF tub with a circ pump, so I don't have any skin in the TP/jet pump heat issue, I just didn't want to leave your (IMO) inaccurate statements unchallenged. Although interesting for some of us, FF/TP discussions tend to hijack threads. We are a long way from outdoor clocks. My apologies, Northwoods. :-[
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Running the larger pumps for several cylces a day for filtration is not mandatory for clean water. Anyone with a Watkins tub can tell you that. Now, TP tubs depend on it, as it also is tied directly into the Thermal design of the tub. Don't you agree?
I don't understand how anyone who understand how TP works can say that running the pumps is not primary to the thermal system. Once again, I'll ask, please explain this to me. One of us is very confused....or stuborn.
Thanks for challengeing what you considered to be inaccurate, (hoenstly, I respect that), but you haven't answered any of my questions or responded with any infromation that applies to the how TP works and how they depend on pump heat. Or the fact that I provided you with information from a TP maker who clearly states the heat from the pumps is key to the heat efficeny system. I think you are confused.
To keep it on track of clocks, Reese, if you can prove that cycling the pumps is not a primary to the TP design, I'll buy you that clock, and I'll eat the box. IF not, you can send the clock to me? Deal?
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Drewstar, there is nothing about this statement that indicates that the pumps run *to* produce heat- just that the heat produced is *used* to help heat the water, not dissipated.
"The incidental (waste) heat that all motors and heaters produce is trapped in this sealed air space and naturally transferred through the spa shell, directly heating the spa water. Recovering waste heat from the motors and heaters significantly reduces the overall heating costs of Arctic Spas. "
If my tub falls below the set temp, the heater comes on, not the pumps! The pump heat may reduce what the heater has to do, but there is no way that you can argue that the maintenance of tub temp depends on pumps running.
Also, to quote you here, "TP do run the pumps to generate heat. Absolutely. I would guess the electrical usage (runing the heater) would go up significanlty if you took a TP tub in the dead of winter and set the filtration cycles to minimum, if not all the way off. TP tubs depend on the larger pumps running to insulate. It's not a ancillary component of the insulation system, but a primary one."
Sure, electrical use would go up if there is less incidental waste heat to recapture, but how can you substantiate that electrical usage would go up "substantially"? It would be just as accurate to say that electrical usage is minimized by the normal filtration cycling, compared to a FF tub.
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Drewstar, there is nothing about this statement that indicates that the pumps run *to* produce heat- just that the heat produced is *used* to help heat the water, not dissipated.
"The incidental (waste) heat that all motors and heaters produce is trapped in this sealed air space and naturally transferred through the spa shell, directly heating the spa water. Recovering waste heat from the motors and heaters significantly reduces the overall heating costs of Arctic Spas. "
If my tub falls below the set temp, the heater comes on, not the pumps! The pump heat may reduce what the heater has to do, but there is no way that you can argue that the maintenance of tub temp depends on pumps running.
Also, to quote you here, "TP do run the pumps to generate heat. Absolutely. I would guess the electrical usage (runing the heater) would go up significanlty if you took a TP tub in the dead of winter and set the filtration cycles to minimum, if not all the way off. TP tubs depend on the larger pumps running to insulate. It's not a ancillary component of the insulation system, but a primary one."
Sure, electrical use would go up if there is less incidental waste heat to recapture, but how can you substantiate that electrical usage would go up "substantially"? It would be just as accurate to say that electrical usage is minimized by the normal filtration cycling, compared to a FF tub.
Ann your electric bill would go through the roof trying to keep a TP tub warm in the in winter time wihout cycling the pumps on. Could you? Yes. But it really wouldn't be a thermal system as they describe. it's how it works, why is this even being debated?
Would you want to? no. It wouldn't be considered a viable system. In order for a TP desing to be competive with a FF desing in winter insualtion, the pumps are needed to cycle. If Artic could get away from keeping the water clean without cycling the pumps, they would be very hesitent to do so as it would have a direct impact to it's insualtion system. They are joined at the hips.
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I'll disagree with ya drew. A TP spa simply ATTEMPTS to take advantage of the heat produced by the pump(s). While there is evidence that one brand of spa with one type of insulation may be more energy efficient than another brand of spa with another type of insulation, there's NO hard evidence that one style of insulation is any better or worse than another. Until someone takes 2 of the EXACT same spas, insulates each of them with the different insulating methods and test them side by side under the exact same conditions, that evidence wont exist.
It should further be noted, that while many people think there are only two type of insulation methods, full foam and TP, the quality of the workman ship and materials in either can GREATLY effect the actual insulating abilities.
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For the record my Jacuzzi is "full foamed" and it has a 24/7 circ, programable cycles, and no clock. One just shuts the power off and turns it back on when you want the first cycle to begin. For example: I turned my tub on @ 2:00pm after my last fill and have it set to F3 ( (1) 30 min cycle every 6 hours ). It knows what time it is but doesn't display the actual time on the display. I'm sure this is called something but I don't know what? And yes, it does kick on exactly every 6 hours. 8-)
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I'll disagree with ya drew. A TP spa simply ATTEMPTS to take advantage of the heat produced by the pump(s). While there is evidence that one brand of spa with one type of insulation may be more energy efficient than another brand of spa with another type of insulation, there's NO hard evidence that one style of insulation is any better or worse than another. Until someone takes 2 of the EXACT same spas, insulates each of them with the different insulating methods and test them side by side under the exact same conditions, that evidence wont exist.
It should further be noted, that while many people think there are only two type of insulation methods, full foam and TP, the quality of the workman ship and materials in either can GREATLY effect the actual insulating abilities.
[glow]Attempts? [/glow]are you saying it tries to, but doesn't actually achieve it?
I agree that there are many factors to the TP tub (integrity of the dead air space comes quickly to mind), but an efficent thermal design doesn't attempt to capture heat. it does. If it didn't caputer the heat, it wouldn't be TP tub. It would just a thinly insualted tub. ;D
Now, your'e bringing it down the road of which is better (ff or TP and testing). I don't even need to go near that. A thermal desing DOES (not attempts to) but DOES reclaim the heat from the pumps to insulate the dead air space. That's taken from the Artic literature.
Are you claiming that the warm air barrier heated by the pumps has little to no impact on its insulating abilities?
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it's how it works, why is this even being debated?
Its being debated since some of dont agree with you. ;D I do not read the Arctic manual and come to the conclusion my energy bill would be astromomical with 2 vs 4 filtration cycles per day, just that the "heatlock" helps to redirect energy that would otherwise be lost. I have TRIED 2 vs 3 vs 4 and (while I have no separate meter on my tub) I dont see a difference in cost that correlates.
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Its being debated since some of dont agree with you. ;D I do not read the Arctic manual and come to the conclusion my energy bill would be astromomical with 2 vs 4 filtration cycles per day, just that the "heatlock" helps to redirect energy that would otherwise be lost. I have TRIED 2 vs 3 vs 4 and (while I have no separate meter on my tub) I dont see a difference in cost that correlates.
Try none and see what happens.
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... Don't you agree?...One of us is very confused....or stuborn....if you can prove that cycling the pumps is not a primary to the TP design, I'll buy you that clock, and I'll eat the box. IF not, you can send the clock to me? Deal?
No, I don't agree. :-?
Yes, one of us is confused or stubborn. :-/
No, even though I'd love to see you eat a box... I wouldn't agree to that deal, because as with Vermonter's ozone posts, you and I can read the same words and come to different conclusions, so I'm sure we couldn't agree on a winner. ::)
I'm comfortable leaving it with you half-wrong --mistaken on the circ pump statement, and a misunderstood genius on TP. ;):)
I see the cavalry has finally arrived. I'll leave it to them to try to explain it to you.
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Not sure where it fits in the debate but my tub is FF, has a 24/7 circ pump with O3 AND runs the main pumps, if desired, on a filtration cycle for a prescribed period in the morning and evening each day which supposedly acts as a skimming or cleaning cycle to pull water through the filters and purge the plumbing periodically. Seems to work as I have had little difficulty maintaining the water.
I believe I can also change the circ pump to only run for certain periods of the day instead of 24/7 but have never seen a need to do so.
It also has a clock on the control pad so I haven't really felt a need to buy an additional clock for the tub area. But it could really use a light in the LCD display because it is hard to see at night, even when the interior tub lights are on. Instead I have a little key chain red LED light stuck on the tub next to the control panel so that I can see the time/temp display and the button labels when I need to.
Seemed like an obvious oversight of the tub to me to not have a lighted panel and I think the newer 2007 upgraded panel, at least on Vita spas, is lighted now. Not sure if the Reflections line gets the new fancy panel this year as an option.
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Try none and see what happens.
Well that is a silly challenge, since I'm not going to leave my water unfiltered. If the difference between 2 and 4 is not enough for you, why would the difference between 0-2 be any better?
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I'm comfortable leaving it with you half-wrong --mistaken on the circ pump statement, and a misunderstood genius on TP. ;):)
I'm not. You've done nothing to explain your position, or reply to my questions, but you'll walk away saying your happy to stil say I'm wrong?
Way to go Reese. ::)
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a BTU is a BTU. A Kw is a Kw. 1 Kw = 3413 BTU. Makes no difference if it is from the energy supplied to the heater or from waste heat from energy supplied to the pump motor. There is a difference however in that BTUs (therefore the Kw) from the heater are transferred to the water with near 100% efficiency.
I can't believe that I actually contributed to this drivel.
txwillie (mechanical engineer)
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Lets see if I can work on a new approach here ;)
Lets take 2 spas, 1 full foamed and 1 TP. Imagine that you then put 15kw hours of electricity into each spa. Now, I think we can safely assume, that any energy that isn't lost out the side of the spa cabinet is going into heating the water (or for this matter, the water + any area up to the outside of the cabinet).
So, you put 15kw hours of electricity into each spa. Would you agree that the spa that loses the LEAST amount of heat (energy) through the cabinet (to the atmosphere) is the most efficient?
And how the hell we got to this, from me trying to sell a clock is beyond me.
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sigh.
Never in my life would I have thought that I would be explaining how a TP design works to an Artic owner or find myself beating my head against the table trying to convince an Artic owner that heat from the motors is primary to it's design and trhermal efficenty.
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Lets see if I can work on a new approach here ;)
So, you put 15kw hours of electricity into each spa. Would you agree that the spa that loses the LEAST amount of heat (energy) through the cabinet (to the atmosphere) is the most efficient?
Yes I would.
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I'm not. You've done nothing to explain your position, or reply to my questions, but you'll walk away saying your happy to stil say I'm wrong?
Half-wrong :)
I'm sorry that you feel that I haven't explained my position or responded to your questions. I honestly tried to do so. When I go back and read my responses, they are pretty clear to me. I objected to your absolute statements regarding circ pumps and that TP tubs run their pumps to generate heat for the cabinet, and explained why I disagreed. I don't think I owe you any more than that, nor do I expect more from you. If you want to continue to try to convince me that my understanding of tub insulation is incomplete, I'll stay awake as long as I can. ;) :)
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Oh, my fault, must have clicked the wrong thread, I thought we were talking about CLOCKS, must have been in the dead horse section with the eternal FF vs TP issue.
Who cares, we all know about FF and TP and have our own opinions, why try to argue with each other.
Now, about clocks, anyone else have any good ideas?
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(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/d84f1a05.jpg)
T.P. Cooter sez:
Everbody dat ever et a dogfood and onion samwich knows dat de Thermal Pains insoolation is da bestest way to insoolate de spas! Air is de bestest insoolater in da wurld, bar none! A whole helluva lots better den puttin' in hi-density, closed cell foam insoolation like dem stoopid peoples that make industrial freezers do!
Fool foam is deviltry, pure and simple.
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Nothing like weighing into a conversation thread that is hours old, but hey why not? I have an indoor outdoor digital thermometer attached to a showroom tp spa, it shows the inside cabinet temperature. When running, ie in filter or therapy mode, the internal cabinet temp is 108 to 112 or more. this heat is radiated back into the water via the exposed plumbing and manifold system but not really through the shell, as it is insulated and not absorbing heat. When the spa is dormat, ie sitting covered without pump(s) on, it stays about 98 degrees. My showroom spas all stay at the set temp during the day, most of the time i leave them in the economy mode causing heaters to only come on in a filter mode. heat rises, tp is a great insulating system particularly here in florida. most heat vanishes when the spa covers are open and you are soaking pumps running full blast and this is when tp is at its most efficient, with the cabinet temp at 112 degrees radiating upward into the plumbing-it is basic thermal-dynamics. if you have a blower on with tp, you are drawing in air from the heated cabinet, elimating the decreasing of temperture experienced by a blower drawing from the outside. that is the key advantage to tp, using its own heat when you are soaking, thus the heater stay off. there are advantages to either system i suppose. but one that is undeniable regarding tp is in the area of leaks, no insulation to dig out to find its orgin. this is what draws people to tp v. ff, experienced spa owners who have had leaks in ff spa know what a mess they can be and see how easy the tp would be to repair a leak. in a quality spa, the opearting cost differences are nominal probably, mine run about .50 cent per day and far as ff costs, i don't really know.
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I have never really considered FF vs TP, except in my very preliminary research on tubs about 3 years ago. I read enough about both methods and enough blather on this and other sites on the subject to know that if executed properly either works well. My 2c in the matter is this, if the motor heat was key to keeping the heat in, rather than the insulation on the cabinet, it would cost alot more to run a TP spa. My admittedly novice understanding is that both designs are nearly equal regarding overall efficiency. If all that motor heat was lost through "thin cabinet insulation", the heat loss (Kw loss) would be a huge factor and would result in higher electric useage. From what I have read, that is just not the case. Kw does not know if it is powering a pump motor or a heater. Kw does work, and in the process it creates heat. That's it. I live in Texas. It is hot here. FF makes sense to me. If I lived in a cold climate, my preference might be different
txwillie
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Gahhh, it just doesn't stop, CLOCKS people, lets stay focused!
I think TP and FF are both inferior to my preferred method of cramming my tub full of nymphomaniacal cheerleaders, each functions like a 98.6 degree submersible heater, much more fun, pleasing, efficient, and lower electrical cost than FF or TP. Not that I ever get to employ that system, I'm going over to the forum with the Pics O' the day.
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Reese, Anne
Nature attempts to balance everything out. It abhores a vacumm, and heat is drawn to cool. You can fill a bowl of hot water and eventually it will cool. Insulating it slows down this heat transfer. Full foam does it via dense foam and the tiny trapped air pockets in the foam. It works like conventianal insulation (Foam cup, house insulation, etc).
A tp tub slows the transfer down by maitianing a warm air barrier. If the air in the barrier that is next to the shell is warm, it will draw less heat away from the water. Right? Do you understand/agree? The colder the air, the more it will draw from the water.
How does TP create a warm barrier? By drawing heat off the pumps. Without the heat from the pumps, the warm air barrier would be drawing heat away from the water, and evnetually out to the cold.
If a TP tub didn't drawn off the pumps, it wouldn't work as well (and this is where you might be trying to get me). When I say "as well" I mean it would be a significant difference for the cold weather winter tub owner. Significant enough that Artic couldn't complete with Watkins. The $30 a day to heat mantra of the better insualted tubs would not apply to it.
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sorrrrrrry clocks yes......pinch a penny has nice poolside clocks, or any pool store. i wear one on my wrist, luminox navy seal. very easy to read in the steamy hot tub at night.....thought i was there to get away from nagging clocks, time and what do i do now, what do i do now......good night moon...good night spoon and the cow that jumped over the moon...don't you just love that book.......
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U x A x delta T. Where the insulation is located makes no difference.
txwillie
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(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/a1fdf9ab.jpg)
Fuller "Foam" Festus retorts:
Foams, fibrous materials or evacuated spaces (vacuum fer da unedumacated) are used to reduce convective heat transfer by stopping or retarding the movement of fluids (liquids or gases) around the insulated object.
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Foams, fibrous materials or evacuated spaces (vacuum fer da unedumacated) are used to reduce convective heat transfer by stopping or retarding the movement of fluids (liquids or gases) around the insulated object.
That's really not quite correct. It is the air trapped in/by the insulation (urethane foam, fiberglass, whatever) that provides the insulating effect. That's how double pane glass insulates (except that it is usually N2 between the panes) Vacuum is entirely different in that there just arent any molecules to transfer heat in a vacuum.
txwillie
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vacuum is the absence of oxygen.....ie outer space or inside an incandescent light bulb.........not the interior space in a hot tub.
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(http://www.rhtubs.com/ebay/Untitled-1.jpg)
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That's how double pane glass insulates (except that it is usually N2 between the panes)
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/a1fdf9ab.jpg)
Fuller "Foam" Festus quips:
Yessir, but if'n you take some high density, closed cell foam insulation and spray it betwixt them layers of glass, it'd be a heap more energy efficient.....'ceptin' for the fact that it tain't a winder no more....it'd be a door.
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I knew it was a mistake to go messin' with the Terminator.
txwillie
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Unless it's a fixed window. Then it's a very thin, very poorly insulated, wall.
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I knew it was a mistake to go messin' with the Terminator.
txwillie
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/peasandcarrots.jpg)
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From Websters:
Terminator - An individual possessing a PC, unlimited digital photographic material, and way too much time on his hands.
txwillie
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Reminder the topic is Outdoor clocks.
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From Websters:
Terminator - An individual posessing a PC, unlimited digital photographic material, and way too much time on his hands and not getting any lovin, so it makes him ornery.
txwillie
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/customerclock.jpg)
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wrong, wrong wrong. I say that's just plain wrong. Just realized the fallacy in that quote thing. I'm glad that it only makes you ornery
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... If a TP tub didn't drawn off the pumps, it wouldn't work as well... I mean it would be a significant difference for the cold weather winter tub owner. Significant enough that Artic couldn't complete with Watkins. The [glow]$30 a day[/glow] to heat mantra of the better insualted tubs would not apply to it.
$30 a day :o Just kidding, I assume you mean "month". ;) Out of respect for your diligence in trying to educate me ;), one more time...
I do not disagree that thermopane makes use of the waste heat to warm the air, and the pipes, in the "dead air" space. I do disagree with your statement that the pumps are run for the purpose of generating heat, which would make heat the product. IMO, they are run for other purposes (circulation, filtering), and the heat is a byproduct. TP's selling point is that they make use of that byproduct, along with potentially easier leak repairs. FF's is that they do not need to recycle that byproduct to achieve similar operating costs, and that by supporting the pipes/fittings, leaks are less likely. IMO, since operating costs are similar, the main theoretical differences are the leak incidence/repair issue, and the benefit of having the pumps in a cooler operating environment (FF), vs protecting sensitive components in the event of a cold weather power loss (TP). Buyers can decide which is more important to them, and if that overrides other features/comfort.
If we agree that in good examples of each, operating and repair costs are likely to be similar... what do we disagree about, other than product vs. byproduct, which was my objection in the first place? :-?
My apologies Northwoods, and Mr. Moderator, but I didn't want to leave my friend, Drewstar hanging all weekend without one more chance to 'splain it to me. For the record, the antique looking clock that Northwoods found on amazon looks like a thermopane design that would make use of waste heat to keep the mechanism warm in cold weather. My IKEA clock is a FF that has its mechanism exposed to the cold. Heat loss does not seem to affect it, other than perhaps shorter battery life. ;)