Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: glfahlc on February 01, 2007, 05:09:50 pm
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my wife has chemical allergies and i'm concerned about using chlorine or bromine for sanitization. for those that have used them, which is better... spa secret or the natural.
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What about Lithium? Just a thought.
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What about Lithium? Just a thought.
Lithium hypochlorite is a chlorine compound. Is there another lithium based approach I'm not aware of?
glfahlc, if you haven't already, take a look at the Vermonter and Northman approaches in the FAQ at rhtubs.com. A lot of us use a chlorine dose-after-use approach that results in little exposure to chlorine while you are soaking. I'd try that before moving on to more costly alternative programs. If you decide to consider the Vermonter approach, be sure to check out a contentious thread on sanitation from the last two weeks for both sides of the issue.
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Biguanide. I am not a big fan if it but it will fit your need.
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Lithium hypochlorite is a chlorine compound. Is there another lithium based approach I'm not aware of?
glfahlc, if you haven't already, take a look at the Vermonter and Northman approaches in the FAQ at rhtubs.com. A lot of us use a chlorine dose-after-use approach that results in little exposure to chlorine while you are soaking. I'd try that before moving on to more costly alternative programs. If you decide to consider the Vermonter approach, be sure to check out a contentious thread on sanitation from the last two weeks for both sides of the issue.
Nope, thats the one. some of our customers who find the Chlorine too harsh are using Lithium.
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I have had tons of folks tell me that they have trouble with Chlorine. I set them up on Dichlor - adding a small amount after they use the tub. No problem.
Most folks who are bothered by chlorine only have it happen in public pools or spas where the chlorine levels can be staggeringly high. Your home, your tub, you get to keep it nice and low and still have safe water.
Give it a try.
8-)
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Nope, thats the one. some of our customers who find the Chlorine too harsh are using Lithium.
I'm not following something. I assume that using lithium hypochlorite to sanitize a spa is just like using dichlor, except it takes more of it to reach 3ppm since it is less than 40% actual chlorine. When you factor in the high pH, likely requiring acid buffers, I don't see an advantage, other the lack of CYA which could theoretically lengthen time between changes. Could you please describe the program you recommend to your customers?
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Here is what I've done for most of the past 20 years. Get a 10 buck little floater chlorine dispenser and put 1" chlorine pucks in it at the rate of 1 puck per 100 gallons (get the cheapest tabs you can find - usually at Wal-Mart). After a fresh fill, open the dispenser half way. After a day or two, close it down to where only two tabs (or vents, depending on model) are shown. When the puck is the diamater of a quarter, repeat. If you get that strong chlorine smell after the first day, shut down the dispenser for a day or so and open slowly each day thereafter.
Depending on how heavily the tub is used, you may have to adjust the vents a bit one way or another but you'll soon find the "sweet spot" on the dispenser and unless your habits change it will be automatic from then on. Don't fool with Ph unless the water feels too soft or too hard to your body - that is the real test, not what some strip says. Don't worry about shock this or that or sanitize the other thing and all that other stuff. You will go nuts trying to get everything perfect and chances are you'll mess things up worse more often than not. The less you fool with chemicals the cheaper it will be and the better for you and your equipment. Just be sure to change or clean the filter every month (again, depends on use), refill the tub fresh at least quarterly and stabilize the water right away to where it smells and feels right to you - that is the real secret.
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Don't worry about shock this or that or sanitize the other thing and all that other stuff.
To each their own.... but are you seriuos?
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Here is what I've done for most of the past 20 years. Get a 10 buck little floater chlorine dispenser and put 1" chlorine pucks in it at the rate of 1 puck per 100 gallons (get the cheapest tabs you can find - usually at Wal-Mart). After a fresh fill, open the dispenser half way. After a day or two, close it down to where only two tabs (or vents, depending on model) are shown. When the puck is the diamater of a quarter, repeat. If you get that strong chlorine smell after the first day, shut down the dispenser for a day or so and open slowly each day thereafter.
Depending on how heavily the tub is used, you may have to adjust the vents a bit one way or another but you'll soon find the "sweet spot" on the dispenser and unless your habits change it will be automatic from then on. Don't fool with Ph unless the water feels too soft or too hard to your body - that is the real test, not what some strip says. Don't worry about shock this or that or sanitize the other thing and all that other stuff. You will go nuts trying to get everything perfect and chances are you'll mess things up worse more often than not. The less you fool with chemicals the cheaper it will be and the better for you and your equipment. Just be sure to change or clean the filter every month (again, depends on use), refill the tub fresh at least quarterly and stabilize the water right away to where it smells and feels right to you - that is the real secret.
Short, that seems like a good method but it may void your warranty on the shell. Perhaps Terminator can let you know. I know the HS manual clearly states not to use a floating chemical dispenser.
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Here is what I've done for most of the past 20 years. Get a 10 buck little floater chlorine dispenser and put 1" chlorine pucks in it at the rate of 1 puck per 100 gallons (get the cheapest tabs you can find - usually at Wal-Mart). After a fresh fill, open the dispenser half way. After a day or two, close it down to where only two tabs (or vents, depending on model) are shown. When the puck is the diamater of a quarter, repeat. If you get that strong chlorine smell after the first day, shut down the dispenser for a day or so and open slowly each day thereafter.
Depending on how heavily the tub is used, you may have to adjust the vents a bit one way or another but you'll soon find the "sweet spot" on the dispenser and unless your habits change it will be automatic from then on. Don't fool with Ph unless the water feels too soft or too hard to your body - that is the real test, not what some strip says. Don't worry about shock this or that or sanitize the other thing and all that other stuff. You will go nuts trying to get everything perfect and chances are you'll mess things up worse more often than not. The less you fool with chemicals the cheaper it will be and the better for you and your equipment. Just be sure to change or clean the filter every month (again, depends on use), refill the tub fresh at least quarterly and stabilize the water right away to where it smells and feels right to you - that is the real secret.
Short, how old is your tub? Because triclor pucks will eat your pump seal, heater, hoses and compononts at a rate 15 times faster than dichlor. It has a PH of about 1.8 versus dichlor of 7 and the acid will harm every part of your tub. It's use renders your warranty useless instantly.
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I agree, as someone said, "to each his own". But this is what I've done since I bought my first (and only) hot tub in March 1987. In all that time I've needed only one heater element, a heat sensor and a couple of other minor things AND, I've never had a rash. That ain't too bad for 20 years and I attribute it to a common sense approach rather than a "scientific" approach to chemical use. I also attribute it to the fact that I have been the sole user for most of this time. People with families may have to do things differently.
When I came to this forum a few months ago looking for advice on a new hot tub (20 years is enough don't you think?), my very first post asked why was there all this over analysis and almost rabid obsession with chemicals in hot tubs that I was reading here? I was wondering if maybe hot tubs had deteriorated in quality over the past 20 years to the point that chemicals had to now work overtime. It was scary until I learned some people are just obsessed with this subject.
I live on a golf course so I play golf nearly every day. This chemical stuff is a lot like the golf swing. You can go get instruction after instruction, lessons and more lessons, read this, that and the other golf garu's book and you can try every "aid" out there. Sometimes, if you listen well and a particular method works for you fine, it will help a little at one aspect of your game. But you know what, in all my years playing golf and all the hundreds of golfers I know, only a handful were not more confused and their swing more messed up as the more obsessive they became by doing it "by the book". You need to know the basics sure, but sometimes you just need to do what comes natural and have fun - hey, none of us are in the serious business of maintaining a community pool here. It is the same with trying to figure out hot tub chemicals. Feel and smell are wonderful, God-given senses and they can tell you more about the quality of your water and what is right for you than all the strips, books and bottles in the world. True, it is a trial and error thing but it is not the rocket science some chem addicts make it out to be.
As someone else said, yes indeed, I've settled on a new Hot Springs which Terminator will deliver any day now (in fact, should have been here this week). If it is a fact that the warranty will be voided using my method I will of course adapt and do what Term suggests. One reason why I went with HS was their very good, five year warranty and I don't want to mess with that. Having said that, although I will give it plenty of time, if HS's method does not make the water look, feel and smell good to ME or if MY body is not comfortable in there, I will go back to my old method in a heartbeat. I have to feel like I'm in the waters off of Barbados (or maybe in a womb!), I don't know how to explain exactly, but I'll know it the instant I get in.
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...my very first post asked why was there all this over analysis and almost rabid obsession with chemicals... It was scary until I learned some people are just obsessed with this subject... it is not the rocket science some chem addicts make it out to be...
Wow, did someone have a bad experience with their high school chemistry teacher? ;) Pretty hard for anyone who understands basic water management, and the appropriate role that chemicals can play in maintaining a tub, to respond to this without appearing defensive, but maybe that was your plan. I'm all for keeping it simple, but unless you are fortunate enough to have source water that is balanced, or has components that offset the simple routine you propose, people are likely to have trouble if they follow your advice.
It sounds like you were fortunate to have "good" water to work with in your previous residence, and from Term's posts about how little help his customers need, you may have the same luck in E Texas. Unfortunately, some of us get our water from sources that introduce components that are potentially damaging to the tub unless they are managed appropriately, including the use of chemicals. For example, my water comes from limestone aquifers, and is very high in pH, alkalinity and hardness. Folks who don't manage that end up with scale deposits, ineffective sanitizer, etc. Other people who have low pH water run the risk of corrosion attacking sensitive components.
I would have thought that when you "first came here" you would have noticed the number of people who experience problems with their water, and need to fine tune their regimine to fit their situation. If that makes them, and the folks who try to help them "chem addicts", so be it, but I don't think applying labels helps anyone -- unless we come up with a name for folks who espouse using corrosive chemicals without monitoring.;):)
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I think water management is a lot simpler and fun when you have at least an understanding of how each factor will affect each other and the tub, and at least a bit of an understanding of how sanitation works and how bacteria and other organisms grow. That means you have to at least be a little bit of a chemist and microbiologist, but not an expert! Shortspark, you have probably been tubbing so long that you forgot that at some point you had to learn what feels innate to you now. And it is true that not everyone has water at the source that behaves very well. I manage my tub by feel quite a bit now too, but I used a lot of my Taylor reagents in the first few months to gain the understanding and comfort to do so, and I still rely on those basic measurements to tell me how to adjust chemistry or chlorine. But rather than measuring and analyzing everything frantically all the time, I rely on my acquired intuition to know roughly how my tub is doing based on it's past behavior.
Some people are just more excited by water chemistry than others, too. For them, the details are the fun. Some of us like being reminded of college chemistry classes more than others, I'm sure! I personally love the real-life application of acid base chemistry and all that stuff (almost) as much as your next science geek, but I also just want the end result to be clean, happy water without a lot of effort.
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You're reading too much into this Reese and I assure you I had no "plan" to make anyone defensive. I agree, everyone has to fine tune their routine to their situation and that includes type of water and load factors. Mineral water, well water, iron water, shale water, rain water, whatever, has to be dealt with - no question about it. Just like you have to deal with half a dozen teenagers jumping in at once. But I'm not talking about the unusual water cases that require very special consideration.
Yep, here where we live we have spring water and the ph, eg, is virtually perfect out of the tap and I know I'm lucky for that. And I agree with you about how important the proper ph is for component life. My point is that if I get into the tub one day and it feels "soft" to me I know I have to do something, ditto if it feels "hard" or looks or smells funny. But this is very rare, for me anyway. If my senses are happy, I don't check a damn thing. You know when the water feels good around your body and that is the best indicator, along with looks and smell. I'd rather see people rely more on this than the charts, especially the op whose concern is adverse reaction to chemicals. The less stuff you pour in the better. There are certain things we do that are not good, including eating too much, drinking too much, watching too much tv and using too many chemical products in our hot tubs. You agree less is better and I agree with you that the water indeed has to be made right - we have no argument. I feel our senses, rather than charts or strips, should play the major role in this process.
It has been my experience that people who try to get things "just right" according to the book and charts will also go nuts trying. And the hell of it is they'll go nuts on a daily basis because as you know, "readings" often change over night for no apparent reason. I say in "my experience" because I was one of these people at first. Of course, you do have to use some chemicals but I trust my senses and experience and I go a step at a time, a very small step when using these products. I think if more people did the same they could limit the amount of time, money and chemicals - not to mention frustration.
Speaking of money, I get my pucks at Wal-Mart, as I mentioned before. They cost about $25 or so and I'm good for nearly a year. A little ph up or down maybe once or twice a year and a few new strips to double check and that is it. If I spend $75 a year on my tub it would be a lot. Maybe my floater method won't work for everyone (warranty issues not withstanding) but it is worth a try if for no other reason than for the sake of "simplicity" - which ain't necessarily a bad thing.
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I feel our senses, rather than charts or strips, should play the major role in this process.
Police Officer: "Captain, he "blew" a .2 but he didn't look, smell, sound, or feel drunk, so I let him go."
;) ;D
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You're reading too much into this Reese and I assure you I had no "plan" to make anyone defensive...
So I guess terms like "overanalysis, rabid obsession, and chem addict" are just your way of conveying respect for other people's approaches and opinions. ::)
Now that you have qualified your "Zen and the art of hot tub maintenance" approach, recognizing that it will only work in certain situations, I have no problem with it -- although I do believe there is a place for testing in any water management program. I find that if the results "change overnight", it is usually for a reason. Waiting for it to become obvious to your senses can often result in a bigger problem than would have been experienced if it had been dealt with right away.
You might find it interesting to know that I don't spend much more on chems than you do, even though my "tool kit" includes dichlor, MPS, dry and muriatic acid, baking soda, soda ash, clarifier and a stain/scale preventer. If you stay on top of your water, and only use things as needed, they go a long way. I probably don't spend much more time than you do on maintenance either, a few minutes a week. :)
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It must be something in the water in Texas ;)
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It must be something in the water in Texas ;)
Yeah.......you see alot things down there that you don't see any where else.
(http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r165/tileman_photos/cow-wash-1.jpg)