Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: aronsam on January 20, 2007, 08:13:48 pm
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I came across a very scary article about children being trapped in high suction drains and dying with adults in the tub with them.
With four young kids, this presents a real obstacle. I came a cross an aftermarket device that appears to solve the danger www.vac-alert.com.
Does anyone know about this or this vac alert? Do any hot tubs come equipped with safety features to prevent these tragedies?
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By a HotSpring spa. They don't contain suction drains in the spa. :)
Seriously, I don't think you have much to worry about. I don't think there have been any injuries in a portable spa. I believe you are referring to in ground spa tragedies.
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NOt so:
http://www.nymetroparents.com/newarticle.cfm?colid=7797
just google it
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http://www.nymetroparents.com/newarticle.cfm?colid=7797
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NOt so:
http://www.nymetroparents.com/newarticle.cfm?colid=7797
just google it
Maybe I missed it, but I didn't read anywhere that it was a above ground portable hot tub.
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A well designed portable spa should pose no dangers to children as long as the suction guards are intact. Look at any of the major manufacturers and you'll see that there is no way anyone can become entrapped in a suction fitting.
Now I haven't seen all manufacturers but the ones I've seen seen seem 99.999% safe of an entrapment issue.
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aronsam, I still don't think they were referring to portable spas here. Chas may be able to help me here since this has come up many times.
If you really feel uncomfortable, you should consider a HotSpring spa. They don't have suction fittings contained within the spa. The suction fittings are located in the filter compartment away from the users. It's a good design if you ask me.
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It seems that the danger is from portable hot tubs. I am asking whether the maqnufacturers have addressed the danger.
http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/pubs/363.pdf
http://www.asiawestsoftware.com/protect-your-children-from-drowning-and-other-water-accident/index.htm
http://www.vac-alert.com/EntrapmentArticle.aspx?id=16
http://www.vac-alert.com/EntrapmentArticle.aspx?id=17
http://www.vac-alert.com/EntrapmentArticle.aspx?id=15
http://www.vac-alert.com/EntrapmentArticle.aspx?id=7
CPSC Issues Warning for Pools, Spas, and Hot Tubs
WASHINGTON, D.C. - The U. S. Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) is alerting consumers and public health officials to steps they can take to reduce entrapment deaths and injuries associated with pools, spas, and hot tubs.
The main hazard from hot tubs and spas is the same as that from pools -- drowning. Since 1980, CPSC has reports of more than 700 deaths in spas and hot tubs. About one-third of those were drownings to children under age five.
Other hazards include body part entrapment and hair entanglement.
Since 1980, CPSC knows of 18 incidents, including five deaths, involving children between the ages of two and 14 who were injured or died due to body part entrapment involving the drain of a swimming pool, wading pool, or spa. In addition, last week, a 16-year-old New Jersey girl drowned when her body was sucked down against a drain on the bottom of a spa. Her body apparently formed a vacuum seal against an outlet for circulating water and she was held underwater.
Under normal conditions, pipes leading from a pool's drain, or into the pool's pumps, draw water from the pool creating suction. If something blocks the pool drain leading into this pipe, the amount of suction will increase as the pump draws water past the obstruction. This increased suction can entrap parts of a person's body, causing the person to be held underwater. In wading pools, if a child sits on the drain outlet, the suction can cause disembowelment.
To reduce the risk of entrapment and drowning, current safety standards require that each spa have two outlets for each pump, lessening the amount of suction at any single outlet.
Since 1978, CPSC has reports of 49 incidents (including 13 deaths) in which people's hair was sucked into the suction fitting of a spa, hot tub, or whirlpool, causing the victim's head to be held under water. Hair entanglement occurs when a bather's hair becomes entangled in a drain cover as the water and hair are drawn through the drain. CPSC helped develop a voluntary standard for drain covers that reduce the risk of hair entanglement.
CPSC offers the following safety tips when using a hot tub, spa, or whirlpool:
Always use a locked safety cover when the spa is not in use and keep young children away from spas or hot tubs unless there is constant adult supervision.
Make sure the spa has the dual drains and drain covers required by current safety standards.
Regularly have a professional check your spa or hot tub and make sure it is in good, safe working condition, and that drain covers are in place and not cracked or missing. Check the drain covers yourself throughout the year.
Know where the cut-off switch for your pump is so you can turn it off in an emergency.
Be aware that consuming alcohol while using a spa could lead to drowning.
Keep the temperature of the water in the spa at 104 degrees Fahrenheit or below.
The foregoing warning was released by the Consumer Product Safety Commission on June 3, 1996.
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All I know is that there is no such thing to worry about in my Jacuzzi. I'd have a hard time getting a piece of paper stuck to my suction fittings. I hope this means my tub isn't very powerful. :-[
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Aronsam, Assuming your name is not Jim, or that you are not a vac-alert salesman, I would suggest you not get a hot tub.
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It seems that the danger is from portable hot tubs. I am asking whether the maqnufacturers have addressed the danger.
http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/pubs/363.pdf
http://www.asiawestsoftware.com/protect-your-children-from-drowning-and-other-water-accident/index.htm
http://www.vac-alert.com/EntrapmentArticle.aspx?id=16
http://www.vac-alert.com/EntrapmentArticle.aspx?id=17
http://www.vac-alert.com/EntrapmentArticle.aspx?id=15
http://www.vac-alert.com/EntrapmentArticle.aspx?id=7
CPSC Issues Warning for Pools, Spas, and Hot Tubs
WASHINGTON, D.C. - The U. S. Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) is alerting consumers and public health officials to steps they can take to reduce entrapment deaths and injuries associated with pools, spas, and hot tubs.
The main hazard from hot tubs and spas is the same as that from pools -- drowning. Since 1980, CPSC has reports of more than 700 deaths in spas and hot tubs. About one-third of those were drownings to children under age five.
Other hazards include body part entrapment and hair entanglement.
Since 1980, CPSC knows of 18 incidents, including five deaths, involving children between the ages of two and 14 who were injured or died due to body part entrapment involving the drain of a swimming pool, wading pool, or spa. In addition, last week, a 16-year-old New Jersey girl drowned when her body was sucked down against a drain on the bottom of a spa. Her body apparently formed a vacuum seal against an outlet for circulating water and she was held underwater.
Under normal conditions, pipes leading from a pool's drain, or into the pool's pumps, draw water from the pool creating suction. If something blocks the pool drain leading into this pipe, the amount of suction will increase as the pump draws water past the obstruction. This increased suction can entrap parts of a person's body, causing the person to be held underwater. In wading pools, if a child sits on the drain outlet, the suction can cause disembowelment.
To reduce the risk of entrapment and drowning, current safety standards require that each spa have two outlets for each pump, lessening the amount of suction at any single outlet.
Since 1978, CPSC has reports of 49 incidents (including 13 deaths) in which people's hair was sucked into the suction fitting of a spa, hot tub, or whirlpool, causing the victim's head to be held under water. Hair entanglement occurs when a bather's hair becomes entangled in a drain cover as the water and hair are drawn through the drain. CPSC helped develop a voluntary standard for drain covers that reduce the risk of hair entanglement.
CPSC offers the following safety tips when using a hot tub, spa, or whirlpool:
Always use a locked safety cover when the spa is not in use and keep young children away from spas or hot tubs unless there is constant adult supervision.
Make sure the spa has the dual drains and drain covers required by current safety standards.
Regularly have a professional check your spa or hot tub and make sure it is in good, safe working condition, and that drain covers are in place and not cracked or missing. Check the drain covers yourself throughout the year.
Know where the cut-off switch for your pump is so you can turn it off in an emergency.
Be aware that consuming alcohol while using a spa could lead to drowning.
Keep the temperature of the water in the spa at 104 degrees Fahrenheit or below.
The foregoing warning was released by the Consumer Product Safety Commission on June 3, 1996.
If you are this concerned, I agree with MostlyLurkingGal!
COMMON SENSE is what dictates safety. If you don't know about something, then read directions and use common sense. No diving in a pool ... I've warned my kids 1,000,000 times about the danger of it ... they do it 1,000,001 times. When I see them I tell them to knock it off.
Babies die each year drowning in a bathtub because some STUPID parent left them in there alone.
You know what I consider dangerous - driving a car - some stupid idiot lighting up a cigarette, talking on a cell phone, having a swig of coffee, screaming at the kids while backing up the SUV - that's dangerous. :o
A hot tub is not dangerous!
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I don't really have much to add. Someone has already asked if you are really Jim. Great question. If you aren't then you accidently sounded like him, and no offense is meant.
Someone already told you that these accidents do NOT involve self-contained hot tubs. That is true. Nothing in any of the articles you have posted, or the many thousands of words Jim has posted over the years offers any evidence that anyone has had a single issue with a self-contained tub, especially if the tub is listed by ETL or UL.
So, again, not to offend you in any way, but if you are a legit shopper with a real concern, relax. Shop with confidence - but be sure to buy a tub which is ETL or UL listed, and you will not have a thing to worry about.
This next sentence may get me in mild trouble - I'll take that rist - but as was already mentioned above, HotSpring Portable Spas do NOT have any suctions in the bathing area.
8-)
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Someone already told you that these accidents do NOT involve self-contained hot tubs. That is true.
8-)
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Here's a thought. Watch your children. Or would that take too much time and bother?
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This next sentence may get me in mild trouble - I'll take that rist - but as was already mentioned above, HotSpring Portable Spas do NOT have any suctions in the bathing area.
8-)
Yeah, but if you take out all of the filters, and a kid jams his head into the filter compartment, watch out! ;)
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I know you were just kidding, but the truth is: NOT.
Take out the filters (from a HotSpring tub) and you still have very safe standpipes in place. And, they are sticking out of the bottom of a deep filter compartment. So if the next question is 'what if the standpipes get taken out,' then the answer is:
"Nothing."
You would have to have a neck at least two feet long to fit you head down there, and a rather slender head as well.
(http://library.thinkquest.org/J0111742/asiaphotoburma.jpg)
Oh - and by the time you have removed that much safety equipment...
8-)
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Yea but it could happen Chas, if you wernt watching your kids for a couple hours whiles they played in the hot tub!!
I am a tell it like it is kinda guy and I could care less if I offend someone but here goes. If your an adult and stupid enough to get killed by entrapment on the suction of any portable spa it was mother natures way of eliminating stupid from this world, you don't deserve to be here. If you kids get trapped on the suction of a portable hot tub you deserve the pain and anquise associated with it. To bad your stupidity had to cost the life of an innocent child.
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I find the responses fascinating.
I raise a concern after reading about the seven year old grand daughter of Secretary of State Jim Baker dying while in a portable hot tub while along side an adult who could not free her.
The responses are insulting rather than substantive. That's fine, I'll discuss the issue with the different dealers around me.
To those who don't take offense to my question, maybe you can read the consumer product safety commission report and hopefully the problem has been fixed.
I have eight children and think I am figuring out how to watch them.
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Moving large quantities of water through a relatively small opening WILL create a sometimes large negative pressure. It matters not what brand it is so let's lose all the Hot Springs shills. Increasing the surface area for water inlet, whether it's accomplished by multiple low suction grilles or an oversized filter inlet opening accomplishes the same objective. This does NOT make Hot Spring spas any safer than ANY other brand in this regard.
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I don't really have much to add. Someone has already asked if you are really Jim. Great question. If you aren't then you accidently sounded like him, and no offense is meant.)
His IP goes back to NYC.
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I find the responses fascinating.
I raise a concern after reading about the seven year old grand daughter of Secretary of State Jim Baker dying while in a portable hot tub while along side an adult who could not free her.
The responses are insulting rather than substantive. That's fine, I'll discuss the issue with the different dealers around me.
To those who don't take offense to my question, maybe you can read the consumer product safety commission report and hopefully the problem has been fixed.
I have eight children and think I am figuring out how to watch them.
I don't know if you'll be back to read this aronsam but quite honestly you came onto a hot tub message board and asked a question and it was answered in the first 3 or 4 responses. I considered it a valid question originally. Then you came back with some "vac alert" articles because of your "concern" - it looks fishy to me.
I glanced over the original article of the entrapment and I too did not see if it was a portable spa - a portable spa is a self contained spa, not a spa designed along side a pool. As all of us said, portable spas are not dangerous - they do have safety devices attached. Maybe not a "vac alert" but my 2" suction inlet has a 4" wide x 2" deep screen on it - no way for entrapment unless a person was so large that he/she can totally cover an area that big. Can that cover break - possibly but it is my responsibility to keep the tub safe.
If you truely are a concerned parent - salespeople are not the most reliable sources of information. If you are dismayed by the answers you received ... you've come to a site where people own tubs, we all believe that tubs are safe.
BTW, Children and hot tubs may not mix ... the extreme temp of a tub could have harmful effects on children. If you do decide to get one make sure you ask a Peditrician before haveing those 8 kids in there.
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Yea but it could happen Chas, if you wernt watching your kids for a couple hours whiles they played in the hot tub!!
How?
Keep in mind that HS still has TWO standpipes per pump, so even if the filters are removed, then the standpipes, and then the fact that the openings are now under two feet of water at the bottom of a very protected space - they still have the safety of being doubled up so if one is blocked somehow the pump can draw from the other one.
I know you are trying to tell it like it is, but IMO this is a very safe system. To me, it is the safest one on the market.
And to the original poster - please take a second or two to do a cut and paste for us poor dumb 'shills' so we can see what part of any of those articles you linked to indicate that any of the incidents involved a self-contained hot tub? Please.
You are shopping and are concerned about safety. And of course, to you that seems totally reasonable. I agree. What seems to have escaped your thinking is that before I put everything I own on the line by way of a lawsuit from one or more of my customers - let alone the personal aguish of being part of a personal tragedy on the part of one of my customers - I have done the homework and made the same choice. I just have the lives of hundreds of my customer's kids riding on it, and the financial future of my own family as well. Sort of puts the onus on me to be sure the product I take to market is the very safest it can be.
And to the poster who mentioned that having the water go through one point - the filter weir - I would ask you to try one. Go to a HS dealer, take your finger and hold the weir up in it's track while the pump or pumps is/are running. It takes a few seconds for the water level in the filter area to drop and the suction is automatically broken.
This is a safe system.
8-)
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How?
Keep in mind that HS still has TWO standpipes per pump, so even if the filters are removed, then the standpipes, and then the fact that the openings are now under two feet of water at the bottom of a very protected space - they still have the safety of being doubled up so if one is blocked somehow the pump can draw from the other one.
I know you are trying to tell it like it is, but IMO this is a very safe system. To me, it is the safest one on the market.
And to the original poster - please take a second or two to do a cut and paste for us poor dumb 'shills' so we can see what part of any of those articles you linked to indicate that any of the incidents involved a self-contained hot tub? Please.
You are shopping and are concerned about safety. And of course, to you that seems totally reasonable. I agree. What seems to have escaped your thinking is that before I put everything I own on the line by way of a lawsuit from one or more of my customers - let alone the personal aguish of being part of a personal tragedy on the part of one of my customers - I have done the homework and made the same choice. I just have the lives of hundreds of my customer's kids riding on it, and the financial future of my own family as well. Sort of puts the onus on me to be sure the product I take to market is the very safest it can be.
And to the poster who mentioned that having the water go through one point - the filter weir - I would ask you to try one. Go to a HS dealer, take your finger and hold the weir up in it's track while the pump or pumps is/are running. It takes a few seconds for the water level in the filter area to drop and the suction is automatically broken.
This is a safe system.
8-)
Ya know Chas, I like you but this dribble is nonsence. I can't speak of all manufacturer's tubs but the ones that I've seen have all been safe. HS has nothing over any other tub EXCEPT PRICE!!!
So based on what you are saying HS is the safest and Caldera, the other tub line you sell, is a death trap - I think selling both you should write Caldera a letter and tell them they really should get on the ball and copy their sister tub.
You should STOP selling Caldera since HS is the safest on the market ... you wouldn't want to get sued based on the fact that you are knowingly selling a death trap! You've just admitted to the fact that the HS system is the safest on the market barring none.
I think I need to visit California and buy me a Caldera ... any California Lawyers here?
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It dawned on me that I might have given a better answer to this question. After rereading your first post -
Many swimming pools have been built before the safety regs were changed. Newer pools with attached spas have multiple drain filtting. I owned a pool a long time ago which only had an attached spa. That spa had one drain fitting in the bottom, and a large pump. It could really pull at that drain fitting when the valves were set to run the spa side of things. The drain cover was flat. Not real safe.
But this forum is about self-contained hot tubs - and those will almost universally have multiple suction points. Even if they are not ETL or UL listed, they will usually STILL have more than one suction point becuase they will have a filter and a bottom suction fitting.
That design is much safer than the one which has caused tragedies in the pools and spas you read about in the news. There is a problem though;
most news folks don't know the difference. They see a report about a 'hot tub' or a 'spa' incident and they don't take the time to find out and report on the very important part of the information, which is:
was it a spa attached to a swimming pool, or was it a newer, better-designed tub?
What I am saying is that your concern is justified, and to answer your question: Yes. The industry has addressed this issue long ago. The tubs I sell have been UL and/or ETL listed for a couple of decades. Part of that listing involves not having safety issues involving suction entrapment. So the tubs people are discussing here have taken care of the issue you are asking about. I think most of the posters in this thread assume you know or knew that, but you very well may have not been aware of it. Sorry if we came across harsh -
I hope this helps.
8-)
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Which goes back to my original post, different manufacturers accomplish this in different ways, and all safely.
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So based on what you are saying HS is the safest and Caldera, the other tub line you sell, is a death trap - I think selling both you should write Caldera a letter and tell them they really should get on the ball and copy their sister tub.
You should STOP selling Caldera since HS is the safest on the market ... you wouldn't want to get sued based on the fact that you are knowingly selling a death trap! You've just admitted to the fact that the HS system is the safest on the market barring none.
I think I need to visit California and buy me a Caldera ... any California Lawyers here?
Don't forget - Tiger River has suctions too. And no, I am not saying tubs with properly designed suction fittings are 'death traps.' Thanks for asking.
I stand by my statement: The way HS arranges the suction system is the safest way to do it. I didn't say it was the ONLY safe way to do it. I said it was safer. No suctions in the bather area compared to suctions in the bather area. That is hard to argue IMO.
The fact that Tiger River, Solana, Hot Spot and Caldera all have suction fittings in the bather area makes the point that you can have those suctions in a safe manner. Every ETL or UL listed tub has had to create a safe way to have these suction fittings. No matter what brand you are looking at, if it is ETL or UL listed you don't really have to worry about suction entrapment. In fact I will say again that even non-ETL listed tubs most likely have a filter on one side of a T fitting and a suction on the other. That works to keep them safe.
The whole thread started because a person read about accidents in swimming pools and the spas attached to them. Those are different animals than what we are discussing here.
8-)
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[size=18]Cal Spas[/size]
EXCLUSIVE True Blue Safety Suction System™
(http://www.calspas.com/hot_tubs/images/features/equipment/safety.jpg)
Prevents drowning risks and dry-run motor damage by automatically shutting
off the pump when anything – clothing, hair, toys, towels, etc. – blocks water
intake to your spa’s motor.
Anti-Vortex Drains
(http://www.calspas.com/hot_tubs/images/features/equipment/vortex.jpg)
Automatically shuts down the pump in the event of any
water flow restriction.
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Just my opinion, but I would rather have a system with no moving parts. I'm sure this is a good way to go, but it has parts that must be in good working order to do it's job. To me, they would be better off just putting the correct size suction fittings, in the correct places in the tub, and having the correct number of them.
Now, if they do all that AND add this system, bravo! One more step in making an already safe product even safer.
8-)
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Ya know Chas, I like you but this dribble is nonsence. I can't speak of all manufacturer's tubs but the ones that I've seen have all been safe. HS has nothing over any other tub EXCEPT PRICE!!!
So based on what you are saying HS is the safest and Caldera, the other tub line you sell, is a death trap - I think selling both you should write Caldera a letter and tell them they really should get on the ball and copy their sister tub.
You should STOP selling Caldera since HS is the safest on the market ... you wouldn't want to get sued based on the fact that you are knowingly selling a death trap! You've just admitted to the fact that the HS system is the safest on the market barring none.
I think I need to visit California and buy me a Caldera ... any California Lawyers here?
I've only been entrapped once on my Caldera spa,but as I hold the State record in FL for holding my breath,I was able to pry myself free after 3 minutes ;)
I concur with TMAN and his thoughts/opinions.....it would take a person with a low IQ and/or drug induced,to become entrapped on a suction fitting in a PORTABLE spa,and potentially cause personal injury/death.
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Same for pools. I have retrofitted swimming pools with two drains in a commercial application. We were renovating and replastering the pool and seperate spa. A LOT of work. We jack-hammered the bottom and skimmers, added plumbing to a second drain in both the pool and the spa, installed commercial skimmers with an open balance port, replastered, fitted new anti-vortex drain covers, AND replumbed the equipment pad to remove valves which could override the dual suctions by putting all the suction on either the skimmers or main drains.
No moving parts (other than the float valves in the bottom of the skimmers) and you couldn't set anything or turn anything on or off which would cause the new safe design to be ineffective.
Adding a vac alert or something like it would have been great, but not needed. Again, keep in mind that we are now talking about a swimming pool, not a self-contained tub.
8-)
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Thank you Chas, for the second post, and Zep.
I am a non technical person and was nervous about what I read which is why I cam here for help. As I understood it, the danger it from children getting attached to the drain not sucked into it. The strong suction makes it impossible to free the child.
Whwen I googled it, Vac Alert came up, that site had a collection of articles and that is why I posted from there.
I gather from Zep that Cal Spas addressed the danger.
I do have a brother named Jim, both of us are in NY.
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Well, welcome to the board.
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Chas, you didn't see the sarcasm in my typing when I said "if you leave the kids alone in the tub for a couple hours"
My boys would of had to been about 5 years old to get stuck on one of my suctions. Because they are very big boys, and until they were 10-12 they would never of been left alone in the tub and at that time they were allredy very big. Just not enough suction in my tub to do much.
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;)
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(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/NSFHotSpring-1.jpg)
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/NoWayJose-1.jpg)
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/0be951f5.jpg)