Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: Gomboman on January 16, 2007, 12:27:10 am
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I typically use the Clean cycle after my daily dichlor dose. The spa runs for 10 minutes and then shuts off automatically. I believe this is standard for some other spas as well.
I have a HS spa with two jet pumps. I've never had any issues with this method but I'm wondering if would be better to run both pumps since the Clean cycle only activates pump #1. Correct me if I'm wrong with this.
When I shock with dichlor I always use both pumps so all the lines are exposed to the high level of chlorine. Is there a risk of bacteria contamination in the lines when only using the Clean cycle on a daily basis?
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No need to run both pumps.
The purpose of the Clean cycle is to circulate the water so the chemicals can get evenly distributed AND make it easier for you. Most other spas require you to go back out to shut it off. Just one of the things I really like my Hot Spring.
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This got brought up as a side-topic in the "oops, did bromine instead of Chlorine.." thread......I'm with Gombo in wondering about the thoroughness of the "clean" (or "boost" if you have an Arctic) cycle, as not all pumps run. And do most spas really require that you go out to shut them off? That seems odd. Dealers?
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My Jacuzzi's programmable cycles, also only activate pump 1 for 20 minutes in low speed. Call me overkill if you must but I always turn both pumps on high and turn on every air injector for atleast 10 min after adding my post soak dichlor dose. And Vanguard, yes if I forget to shut it off it will do it on it's own, after 20 mins. :D
Btw, 11 weeks into my fill, I still haven't had cloudy water. Maybe this helps some. :-/
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I run all my pumps and air blower after adding dichlor. I only run them for a couple of minutes and shut off. You want the water in all the plumbing to get sanitized. Vermonter has addressed this a couple of times.
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I also run both my pumps and air blower when adding dichlor. Running just the clean cycle would leave one pump system and the air lines untreated, a bad idea IMO. I shut the blower off after the dichlor is in, and leave the pumps running until they shut off on their own at 15 min. When I go back to cover the tub (10-15 min), I run the blower again, long enough to purge the line and get treated water in when it refills.
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True purpose of a clean cycle is that any spa with one of those silly pond pumps is not enough to keep a spa clean, so the they use the jet pump to filter more water.
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True purpose of a clean cycle is that any spa with one of those silly pond pumps is not enough to keep a spa clean, so the they use the jet pump to filter more water.
Of course.
A circ pump isn't enough to quickly disolve and disapate chemicals. You want turbulent full tub water movement. A circ pump's purpose isn't to disolve bulk chemicals rapidly.
If your tub has a circ pump or not, anyone on a dichlor program is (should) be adding chemicals with a least one of the main pumps going.
Your posts strikes me as a negative attack on circ pumps, but I don't see how it makes a difference in this context. The fact is, there are a ton of quality tubs out thier with circ pumps and the tubs are clean. So what was your point? I completley missed it. I am lead to belive that a circs pump purpose is not to move water through the filters, but to move heated water throught the tub, work in conjuction with the O3 system and keep the water from stagnating, but not filtering.
??
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This is a repost of one of my posts on the "oops, bromine..." thread:
"2) A shortcoming of the "clean" feature in HS tubs:
Assuming you have a HS tub and assuming that it is a two pump version, then unless HS has changed their approach, when you use the "clean" cycle, it only operates one of the two pumps (and the related valves, diverters, etc.). This is the case in my 2001 Grandee and I believe (not sure) that it is still the case. So, whenever you perform your routine dosing or shock/disinfection, I recommend that you manually turn on both pumps / pump trains, open up all valves, etc. so that every "wetted" surface within the hot tub (hidden plumbing included) is exposed to the chlorine.
If you don't - let's say you operate just the "clean" cycle and it only turns on one pump - then you would have a whole pump and all it's associate plumbing that is not being disinfected. It sits there for a night, or two, or a week...with microbes unchecked in a warm environment...and, when you use the tub the next time and active that pump, you can dump in several liters (or more) of microbe laden water into the tub water that you are trying to enjoy. This could equate to many billions of organisms.
Would it always be a problem? Probably not, but I, for one, don't want to take that chance given that all you need to do is run both pumps for about 10 minutes after you add your normal "after soak" chlorine."
I'd also like to clarify something. Filtration in hot tubs is, to the best of my knowledge, totally ineffective with respect to reducing bacteria concentrations that might be present and certainly ineffective against viruses. Depending on the filter's pore size (and whether it has a nominal rating or an absolute rating - I think all hot tub filters are nominally rated?) it may be effective on Giardia and less so on Cryptopsporidium (both are protozoans and much larger than bacteria).
The reason for my recommending operation of two pumps has nothing to do with filtration - rather it is because I strongly believe that you need to ensure that a killing dose (and sufficient contact time) of a primary disinfectant is distributed throughout all of your tub's plumbing and associated wetted surfaces. The goal is to achieve, always, a microbiologically safe tub.
To me, it would seem that it would be very easy for HS (or others that may have a "clean" cycle that does not use all pumps) to change the programming to enable both pumps to be running during the 10 minute "clean" cycle.
Best,
Vermonter
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On a side note.
Alot of spas also have purge cycles where 1 pump will run for 20 to 30 seconds then shut off and pump 2 will do the same,usually it will do this every 12 hours. Reasons for this are so the water in the line does not become stagnant from lack of use of the spa.
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I only have a couple discrepencies (sp) with this issue. One is that circ pumps turn over several thousand gallons of water in a 24 hour period. It is hard to believe that a 500 gallon closed water system, with 100% no bypass or suction fittings would not allow several gallons of water to come in contact with dichlor given an ample amount was introduced. HS in particular the way that plumbing water and physics work together. A process called venturi which Mazzei could elaborate on would most likely ensure that the water in that jet pump line would inevitibely come in contact with sanitation. Either pulling water slowly from the jet orfice itself or pulling backward from the jet pump filter as th circ pump filter is next door to the jet pump filters. Also giardia will not get caught in your filter as giardia in its shell is less than 20 microns. giardia hatched is less than 1 micron. Most spa filters are 20 mic. Unless you are using micro-clean. which has its own issues. But hey I live in an area that sells hydro electricity all over the world. The more you program your spa and the more jet pumps you run saves me money on my bill. So have at it. Lots of good stuff on this sight. Have a nice day. 8-)
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Hi BBoppin,
Thanks - a bit more info:
1) The issue I have is not (at all) with the circ pump and the Mazzei injector associated with that pump train. The problem is that, in HS tubs with two main pump trains (the circ pump is a third), the "clean" cycle only activates one of those two pump trains. The second train is, in essence a closed system at that point and nearly all of the water contained within that pump train will not see the disinfectant that the other pump train(s) and the main tub itself are seeing (no matter how long the circ pump is running).
If your free chlorine concentration is close to "0" when you use the tub the next time, then all the water that was caught up in that unused pump train will dump into the tub and you run the risk of a microbiologically unsafe tub. This can easily mean the introduction of billions or bacteria into the main tub. As stated before...that doesn't necessarily mean you will have a problem (many are non-pahtogens), but it simply isn't worth the risk (in my opinion).
2) Regarding Giardia, you are correct. Giardia are typically 12 - 15 microns in length and about a third to a half of that in width. Cryptosporidium are spherical and 4 - 6 microns in diameter (typical). If standard hot tub filters are 20 microns, then they would not pick up those microbes. Many bacteria (not all) are less than 1 micron in size - some are as small as 0.25 microns or so. Those certainly won't be picked up with a 20 micron filter or even the 1 micron Micro-Clean filter you refer to. Many viruses are smaller than 0.1 microns - they certainly won't be picked up by a (non-charged) filter of 1 or 20 microns regardless of whether the filters are nominal or absolute rated.
3) Probably this should go in another thread, but my experience over 5 years with my HS Grandee and HS's no-bypass filtration, has demonstrated to me that I simply do not need to run the main pumps on any type of regular basis to keep my water crystal clear (visually). During periods of non-use, I may not use the main pumps at all - an average (total) time of using them is significantly less than one hour per week; soimetimes they are not turned on at all. During periods of tub use, the time involved in the "hydrotherapy" is similarly sufficient so I do not need to run any supplemental filtration cycles. - other than approximately 10 minutes of operating both pumps after dichlor addition (after use) but that is for disinfection and not filtration purposes. I read of many tub owners running main pumps several hours per day (or more) - and am truly grateful that I do not need to do that with my HS.
Vermonter
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Of course.
A circ pump isn't enough to quickly disolve and disapate chemicals. You want turbulent full tub water movement. A circ pump's purpose isn't to disolve bulk chemicals rapidly.
If your tub has a circ pump or not, anyone on a dichlor program is (should) be adding chemicals with a least one of the main pumps going.
Your posts strikes me as a negative attack on circ pumps, but I don't see how it makes a difference in this context. The fact is, there are a ton of quality tubs out thier with circ pumps and the tubs are clean. So what was your point? I completley missed it. I am lead to belive that a circs pump purpose is not to move water through the filters, but to move heated water throught the tub, work in conjuction with the O3 system and keep the water from stagnating, but not filtering.
??
Your are right I do not like the circ pump but it was out of context for the topic. For the purpose of heat and ozone that is acceptable, but I do not know of a manufacturer that uses them for that purpose only, they are always tied to at least one filter.
Take the filter away from them and they would make sense.
Not one service that's reads this board can dispute the circ pump have a high failure rate and it is not the pumps fault but usually debris getting in them.
I guess I should not complain, they make me a lot of money.
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Your are right I do not light the circ pump but it was out of context for the topic. For the purpose of heat and ozone that is acceptable, but I do not know of a manufacturer that uses them for that purpose only, they are always tied to at least one filter.
Take the filter away from them and they would make sense.
Not one service that's reads this board can dispute the circ pump have a high failure rate and it is not the pumps fault but usually debris getting in them.
I guess I should not complain, they make me a lot of money.
Gary I have never heard of a circ pump being used to Filter. Always for ...well circulation.
:) Am I missing something? If a tub, like HS that has 100 no baypass then there is some filtration, but on other tubs, there just isn't the volume to achieve any substantial filtration, or am I all wet here?
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On a Sundance 880, the circulation pump is the filtration pump. There are no bypasses on it. So far, at least at our shop, there have been no failures of the new circulation pump.
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...Take the filter away from them and they would make sense...the circ pump have a high failure rate and it is not the pumps fault but usually debris getting in them.
I'm not following. Isn't one of the purposes of the filter to keep debris from reaching the pump?
For what it is worth, the circ pump filter is always the dirtiest of the the three when I clean my filters. IMO it is doing most of the filtration work on my tub.
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On a Sundance 880, the circulation pump is the filtration pump. There are no bypasses on it. So far, at least at our shop, there have been no failures of the new circulation pump.
But...the new SD circ pumps are high flow and push more water than low speed on traditional two speed pumps.
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On my Caspain, I have a single, pleated filter. I can't imagine the circ pump contributing significantly to the filtering, esp since the filter has a floating ring around it. I assumed the majority of water reaching the circ pump on my tub was through the intakes inside the tub, bypasing the entire filter. Have I assumed incorrectly?
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My circ pump filters my water 24/7 through one of my filters.
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the filter has a floating ring around it. I assumed the majority of water reaching the circ pump on my tub was through the intakes inside the tub, bypasing the entire filter.
Hi drewstar,
What do you mean by the above - i.e. what is a floating ring? And is your circ pump not fed by a dedicated line (tubing)?
On my tub, the inlet to the circ pump has a single feed (flexible PVC clear tubing) that is 100% safeguarded by a single dedicated filter. The circ pump runs 24/7 and if you use a flow rate of even 3 gpm, then the total volume filtered daily is in excess of 4000 gallons. At 5 gpm, it is over 7000 gallons. But it is all protected by a filter. Does your Caspian circ pump run 24/7?
Sorry - I went to the Tiger River site to download an owner's manual, but didn't find a quick link to it...
Vermonter
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Generally as a rule all circ pumps draw water thru a filter,I dont know of any that dont. And to say a circ pump doesnt filter water just doesnt hold water here.
As mentioned on another post Sundance went with a highflow circ pump to be able to draw sufficent water thru there micro clean filter and it also just happens to filter a chit load of water as does the Jacuzzi 400 collection of spa's which uses the same pump as the Sundance.
Artesian did the same with there platinum class spa's.
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I assumed the majority of water reaching the circ pump on my tub was through the intakes inside the tub, bypasing the entire filter. Have I assumed incorrectly?
Your circ pump will be tied to the filter only, no bypass. Your jet pump has a bypass. You have indeed been assuming incorrectly. I'll add this to the list! ;D
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Mr. V
Sorry for the misunderstanding in my terminology. I wasn't referring to the mazzei injector specifically. I was referring to the physics of circulating in a closed system that as water circulates, any tributaries or plumbing that intersects with that circulation also gets pulled into the stream, then replaced from the other end. not as fast as the initial circulation but inevitably does.This is the venturi theory. Similar to ocean currents dragging outside items into their stream. remember nemo. :) Also one other idea that holds true. Bodies of water are always moving and agitating. Just by shear spinning of the earth. As long as the earth spins the water no matter where it is will churn. When the earth stops spinning. You won't have to worry about the water in the plumbing of jet pump two. Just some boring trivia learned over the years. How bout those Patriots.
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Your circ pump will be tied to the filter only, no bypass. Your jet pump has a bypass. You have indeed been assuming incorrectly. I'll add this to the list! ;D
Oh god....I didn't know someone was keeping score. :-?
:)
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Brad,
The circ pump on your Grandee has a small bleed line plumbed into various parts of the two jet systems. It is there for several reasons - one is to keep hot water in all parts of the plumbing. It is fairly good at that. I often turn my jets on after settling in to soak a few minutes, and I don't get a lot of cold water when first hitting the jet button in the newer tubs. My 10-year old Grandee does it a bit more in one seat than the rest, so I know this system is not moving 100% of all the water in every part of every pipe all the time, but there is enough that I don't worry about water stagnating in the jets not serviced by the clean cycle.
Second reason the bleed system exists is to help bleed both jet pumps of air when refilling from a water change. This puts a good flow of water into the base of each of the jet pumps. One of the many side effects of that is that when you put the Dichlor into the filter area, even if you don't run the jets - which you should - you will still have a strong chlorine dose introduced into each jet system.
Another reason the bleed system ties it all together is so that as much water will drain out of the tub's systems -all of it's systems - as possible when draining. This is to help get more water out when doing a simple water change, but it is also to help with freeze prevention in cold climates.
Another reason the bleed system is there is to keep major chambers - such as the filter compartment and MotoMassage compartments - moving. In all recent model HS tubs there is an outlet from the bleed system in the filter compartment. Go put your hand over it when the tub is on, no jets running. You will feel a mini jet of water coming out into the filter compartment. That stirs the water in that compartment far more than the fact that the circ pump is drawing water through one filter.
The assumption made in a previous post about the circ pump not being the main source of filtration in a HS tub is correct: the fact that they have designed thousands of gallons of water to move every day is a good reason to draw that water through a filter, and the fact that the one constant filter does get dirty fastest attests to the fact that this system adds to the overall ease of ownership by helping to keep the water clean. But if you allow the water to cloud a bit, you can run one pump via the timed clean cycle and do more filtration in ten minutes than most other spas do in an hour. Run both pumps manually for ten minutes, and you will do more filtration than some tubs do in a two-hour cycle.
Having the circ pump also filter is sort of a baseline filtration, and the reason that filter loads first is obvious - you don't run the other filters as often because they aren't needed as often. In fact, I have read many people who ask why HS doesn't allow for a scheduled filtration run by one or both jet pumps, and my answer - keeping in mind I don't design these things - is that it works great the way it is. I don't want my jet pumps running on days that I'm not in the tub. I don't need them to run that day or those days, and I don't want to pay the electricity for them to run. And in my experience, the HS system works as well or better than any other spa I have owned, and as well or better than others I have seen in the field as well.
8-)
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This is an excellent thread, thanks!
Bill
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No charge.
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Second reason the bleed system exists is to help bleed both jet pumps of air when refilling from a water change. This puts a good flow of water into the base of each of the jet pumps. One of the many side effects of that is that when you put the Dichlor into the filter area, even if you don't run the jets - which you should - you will still have a strong chlorine dose introduced into each jet system.
Hi Chas,
Thank-you for the clarifications on the circ pump. When I can get out in daylight, I'll check out a few things on the plumbing and then post back.
However, a few points / questions:
1) Depending on where the exact point of injection of the circ pump is with respect to the jet pumps, I think (I don't know - one reason I want to take a closer look) that it is unlikely that you would get the flow going both directions "through" the jet pump. Flow hydraulics dictate that the flow will (almost always) follow the path of least resistance. Depending on setting of valves, jets, etc. as well as the exact location of the point of injection, I don't believe the whole jet system would get chlorinated (brominated, etc.). If a line feeding a jet is "off", then the water wouldn't make it there.
If the point of injection is at the pump head, then I presume it would be on the suction side? Otherwise, during jet pump operation, the higher pressure would potentially push water back from the jet pump to the circ pump (assuming no check valves in the small circ pump feed lines)?
2) Even if the idle jet pump train receives a chlorine dose, the linear velocity (in feet-per-second) is going to be next to nothing (remember that nearly all your circ pump flow is going through the fitting in the bottom of the tub, so the gpm flow through the small bleed lines has to be very, very low - likely well less than 1 gpm). In long ago posts on biofilm, I had mentioned that one of the critical components to not only remove an existing biofilm but to effectively prevent formation of a biofilm is to have a "scouring" effect on the interior of the pump train (lines, valves, pump heads, etc.). This requires a linear velocity of something in excess of 10 fps (I think the number is more like 10 - 30 fps, but I can't recall the exact spec). Regardless, the slight "bleed" flow from the circ pump in the jet pump train would not provide this velocity in the main jet pump plumbing and therefore opens the door to the possibility of a biofilm formation. If the chlorine concentration is strong enough, then this would hopefully be unlikely - but it is possible. And, not all owners use a proper disinfectant dose, further compromising this scenario.
3) If, for the sake of discussion, we assume that chlorine is reaching all of the idle jet pump train and all wetted surfaces of that train, I still can't see a reasonable argument for HS not having the clean cycle activate both jet pump trains. You would only benefit from that - there are no disadvantages that I can think of. If the "clean" cycle operated for 10 minutes and both jet pumps were running (with all valves and diverters open), you would be 100% certain that chlorine was not only distributed throughout all weted surfaces in a HS tub, but also that optimal linear velocities (scouring) would be achieved with that disinfectant pretty much ensuring you of a microbiologically safe tub.
Do you know if HS has ever considered having both pumps be activated during the "clean" cycle? If "yes" and if they decided against it, do you know why?
Thanks, again, for the information and I will take a close look at the "bleed" lines.
Best,
Vermonter
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My guess regarding 1 pump vs. 2 with clean cycle is the marginal difference in operating costs.
I have also heard that studies show biofilm creation in plumbing is quite common; not so much as to create health issues, but it is there. I had a customer who told me her daughter participated in a study that showed spas with ozone had less biofilm than those without.
All hearsay, but...
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Vermonter, perhaps you could run a DOE for us some day using your HS Grandee comparing the bacterial output for the two scenarios.
A. Bacteria concentrations for a given time using the Clean cycle.
B. Bacteria concentrations for a given time using the both Jet Pumps.
Would this be a difficult experiment to perform?
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You guys make me think of things I wish I wouldn't worry about!
Anyway, on the prodigy there are 2 settings that run different jets. I always keep it in the middle so all the jets are moving. This works during the soak and on the clean cycle.
I'm getting all the "wetted" surfaces by doing this right?
I also should mention I have all the jets set to pump just water...I don't really like all the air and bubbles usually. Is this an issue?
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I'm getting all the "wetted" surfaces by doing this right?
I also should mention I have all the jets set to pump just water...I don't really like all the air and bubbles usually. Is this an issue?
Yes, you want to open the air injectors or blower or whatever you have that introduces air to the jets. Then you can say that all the "wetted" surfaces have been treated. :D You don't want any stagnent water in there growing bacteria. I even open mine up after my post soak dichlor dose. :D
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ahh...so if I have the jet setting on 1/2 so all jets get it and then each jet at half so water and air come through I will be getting everything at once....
OK....no problem
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Yes, you want to open the air injectors or blower or whatever you have that introduces air to the jets. Then you can say that all the "wetted" surfaces have been treated. :D You don't want any stagnent water in there growing bacteria. I even open mine up after my post soak dichlor dose. :D
HotSpring spas don't have blowers. The air injectors (venturi valves) should be closed when you are not soaking. They do not need to be open during the clean cycle or when running pumps after adding dichlor. They do not hold water. Your diverter valves that direct the water to the jets want to be in the middle running through all the jets. If you happened to have a spa that had a blower, you would turn it on when adding dichlor because parts of those lines hold water.
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OK, let me get this straight, since it seems that there are some terminology issues here:
The venturi valve is the thing that adds air to the water jets.
The blower is the separate function that is independent of the jets, and *air* bubbles out of all those little holes everywhere.
Tony, are you saying that the blower *does* get water in the air lines? If so, I was not aware of that. My blower comes on at the start of every filtration cycle, but I thought that was just to increase water movement, not to get water in the system. I do not turn on the blower when I turn all the pumps on to add chlorine.
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Anne,
There are some spas that use the air blower to add air to the jets. Most do not.
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OK, let me get this straight, since it seems that there are some terminology issues here:
The venturi valve is the thing that adds air to the water jets.
The blower is the separate function that is independent of the jets, and *air* bubbles out of all those little holes everywhere.
Tony, are you saying that the blower *does* get water in the air lines? If so, I was not aware of that. My blower comes on at the start of every filtration cycle, but I thought that was just to increase water movement, not to get water in the system. I do not turn on the blower when I turn all the pumps on to add chlorine.
Anne
Yes, the venturi valve is the thing that adds air to the water jets and the blower on most spas that have one is a separate function that adds air through its own air jets. These jets are under water and the lines contain spa water back to a point. Your blower comes on at filtration cycles to clean the lines of unsantized water. I turn my blower on for a few minutes when I add chlorine.
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HotSpring spas don't have blowers. The air injectors (venturi valves) should be closed when you are not soaking. They do not need to be open during the clean cycle or when running pumps after adding dichlor. They do not hold water. Your diverter valves that direct the water to the jets want to be in the middle running through all the jets. If you happened to have a spa that had a blower, you would turn it on when adding dichlor because parts of those lines hold water.
Tony, my Jacuzzi has push button air injectors. Do you know if they hold water? I was under the impression they did. Please tell me that I haven't been turning them on for no reason when adding dichlor. :-[
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Tony, my Jacuzzi has push button air injectors. Do you know if they hold water? I was under the impression they did. Please tell me that I haven't been turning them on for no reason when adding dichlor. :-[
No they don't. The buttons take the place of valves on most spas. There are tubes that go from the equipment compartment to the jets that introduce air to the water jets. The buttons open and close the shutoffs to the air.
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No they don't. The buttons take the place of valves on most spas. There are tubes that go from the equipment compartment to the jets that introduce air to the water jets. The buttons open and close the shutoffs to the air.
Thanks Tony. :D I wish somebody would have told me that 12 weeks ago. :-/
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ok, so the button that I push that results in air bubbles coming out of all the little holes separate from the jets is not a "blower"? Does any water get in that system?
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ok, so the button that I push that results in air bubbles coming out of all the little holes separate from the jets is not a "blower"? Does any water get in that system?
The button you push that results in air bubbles coming out of all the little holes separate from the jets sounds exactly what I have and is a blower. Water does get in that system.
Why Not has a Jacuzzi Spa that uses a mechanical button rather than a little dial or lever that adds the omph to the jets. There is no motorized blower on that system nor are there little holes that make bubbles. What you have sounds like an electronic button that starts a motorized blower that sends air to a lot of small little holes and makes a lot of bubbles in the water.
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The button you push that results in air bubbles coming out of all the little holes separate from the jets sounds exactly what I have and is a blower. Water does get in that system.
Why Not has a Jacuzzi Spa that uses a mechanical button rather than a little dial or lever that adds the omph to the jets. There is no motorized blower on that system nor are there little holes that make bubbles. What you have sounds like an electronic button that starts a motorized blower that sends air to a lot of small little holes and makes a lot of bubbles in the water.
Yes, it is an electronic button, on the control panel like all the others, and it sends air to lots of little holes, resulting in my tub looking like a bubbling cauldron. (I also have a mechanical valve that I turn to introduce air into the jets, but that is different.) I did not realize that water got in there (the bubbler thing), so I guess I should turn that button on as well when I add chlorine? Thanks Tony!
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Yes, it is an electronic button, on the control panel like all the others, and it sends air to lots of little holes, resulting in my tub looking like a bubbling cauldron. (I also have a mechanical valve that I turn to introduce air into the jets, but that is different.) I did not realize that water got in there (the bubbler thing), so I guess I should turn that button on as well when I add chlorine? Thanks Tony!
:)