Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: nlittle on January 11, 2007, 09:35:53 am
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Hi
In my guide I was supposed to super chlorinate my 325 gal tub with 3tbls chlorine...I grabbed the wrong jar and used MPS...
Does it matter? Can I still put my chlorine in now or do I have to wait?
DOH!
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I don't think it is a big deal. I would wait at least until the pumps ran for 30 minutes before adding chlorine. Better yet I would get in a soak first.
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LOL...if it was warm enough I would take a soak.
I ran the clean cycle which is 10 minutes so I will wait a bit for the chlorine.
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I agree with Jfish, add your Chlorine later. What outside temp are you at? We are at 33 degrees, it was 15 earlier, still too cold to soak. 40 is ok.
Good Luck.
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I agree with Jfish, add your Chlorine later. What outside temp are you at? We are at 33 degrees, it was 15 earlier, still too cold to soak. 40 is ok.
Good Luck.
Too cold to soak? Only if you don't arrive at the tub alive! (Unless your tub is 100 yards from your door. 4F is the coldest day we have had since we bought our tub.
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I agree with Jfish, add your Chlorine later. What outside temp are you at? We are at 33 degrees, it was 15 earlier, still too cold to soak. 40 is ok.
Good Luck.
Coldest soak yet for me is +5. Forcast for this weekend is -10...............I can't wait! :D
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Sorry for the confusion...not too cold outside. The water isn't warm enough yet. :'(
We just set it up last night and it is on 115v so it will probably take awhile still...
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Hi nlittle,
I have two comments regarding your situation:
1) First Use of Tub - watch out for residual water from the manufacturer:
If this is your first "fill", then it is very, very important (in my opinion) that you perform a thorough "disinfection" of your tub before you use it. I realize this goes against the "I can't wait to use my new tub" emotion, but hear me out...
It sounds like you have a HS tub (based on your comment about the "clean" cycle). I also have a HS - but it really doesn't matter. Tubs are "wet tested" at the factory to make sure pumps, valves, etc. are working and that there aren't major leaks. My understanding is that fresh, disinfected water is NOT used for this testing. Rather, some pretty old water may be used - water that may be laden with microbes (viruses, bacteria, perhaps protozoans and a few other categories). After the tub is "tested", the lines and pumps / valves are not blown out so there is residual water left behind.
When you get your tub and conduct the first fill, this water is still contained in the tub's plumbing and, depending on time, conditions and type of microbe, whatever is in this water can multiply. So, you fill your tub with fresh water and think you're fine - but when you turn on your pumps, this potentially dirty (microbe-laden) water is suddenly dumped into your clean water and you COULD have a problem. Side note: unrelated to microbes, this water can also drive you crazy with foaming and difficult chemical balancing. Although I didn't know this with my tub, I now recommend an intial fill, turn on pumps, disinfect and then drain and refill - even without the microbe issue.
Despite your desire to get in your first soak, it would be very wise (again, my opinion, but backed by reading of "first soak" microbe disasters on other boards) to perform a thorough chlorine disinfection of your tub. Basically, a "shock" dose with all pumps, valves and other wetted surfaces receiving contact with the chlorinated water. I'd circulate the water for at least 2 hours. If you want, you can get in the water even if the chlorine is still in the 5 - 10 ppm range, but if you have sensitive skin, you may want to wait until the chlorine drops. There are a couple of ways you can knock down the chlorine in a hurry - but there are potential problems with that.
Keep in mind - MPS is not a disinfectant in any way. You could put 10 pounds into your tub and if you have E. coli, Pseudomonas, Mycobacterium, etc. present, it won't do anything to kill them.
2) A shortcoming of the "clean" feature in HS tubs:
Assuming you have a HS tub and assuming that it is a two pump version, then unless HS has changed their approach, when you use the "clean" cycle, it only operates one of the two pumps (and the related valves, diverters, etc.). This is the case in my 2001 Grandee and I believe (not sure) that it is still the case. So, whenever you perform your routine dosing or shock/disinfection, I recommend that you manually turn on both pumps / pump trains, open up all valves, etc. so that every "wetted" surface within the hot tub (hidden plumbing included) is exposed to the chlorine.
If you don't - let's say you operate just the "clean" cycle and it only turns on one pump - then you would have a whole pump and all it's associate plumbing that is not being disinfected. It sits there for a night, or two, or a week...with microbes unchecked in a warm environment...and, when you use the tub the next time and active that pump, you can dump in several liters (or more) of microbe laden water into the tub water that you are trying to enjoy. This could equate to many billions of organisms.
Would it always be a problem? Probably not, but I, for one, don't want to take that chance given that all you need to do is run both pumps for about 10 minutes after you add your normal "after soak" chlorine.
Best,
Vermonter
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I never even thought of that. I've had 2 used tubs so both of mine were fill, sanitize, dump, and refill. Maybe there should be a sticky on this forum for newbies with tubs. Call it "everything you should have asked ".
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2) A shortcoming of the "clean" feature in HS tubs:
Assuming you have a HS tub and assuming that it is a two pump version, then unless HS has changed their approach, when you use the "clean" cycle, it only operates one of the two pumps (and the related valves, diverters, etc.). This is the case in my 2001 Grandee and I believe (not sure) that it is still the case. So, whenever you perform your routine dosing or shock/disinfection, I recommend that you manually turn on both pumps / pump trains, open up all valves, etc. so that every "wetted" surface within the hot tub (hidden plumbing included) is exposed to the chlorine.
If you don't - let's say you operate just the "clean" cycle and it only turns on one pump - then you would have a whole pump and all it's associate plumbing that is not being disinfected. It sits there for a night, or two, or a week...with microbes unchecked in a warm environment...and, when you use the tub the next time and active that pump, you can dump in several liters (or more) of microbe laden water into the tub water that you are trying to enjoy. This could equate to many billions of organisms.
Would it always be a problem? Probably not, but I, for one, don't want to take that chance given that all you need to do is run both pumps for about 10 minutes after you add your normal "after soak" chlorine.
Best,
Vermonter
I remembered this being mentioned a couple months back. Ever since then, at the end of the evening, I hit both of the jets buttons, (not the clean button) open my water feature, and go back inside for 10 minutes. It has totally eliminated the surprises I used to find when I opened my cover after several days of non-use. This one little bit of advice has made my tub care SO MUCH EASIER that it's scary. :o
If I open the tub expecting cloudy water, I know ahead of time, because I forgot, slacked off, or both. I do not have unexpected cloudy water any more. 8-)
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Hi nlittle,
2) A shortcoming of the "clean" feature in HS tubs:
Assuming you have a HS tub and assuming that it is a two pump version, then unless HS has changed their approach, when you use the "clean" cycle, it only operates one of the two pumps (and the related valves, diverters, etc.). This is the case in my 2001 Grandee and I believe (not sure) that it is still the case. So, whenever you perform your routine dosing or shock/disinfection, I recommend that you manually turn on both pumps / pump trains, open up all valves, etc. so that every "wetted" surface within the hot tub (hidden plumbing included) is exposed to the chlorine.
Thanks Vermonter! I do have the 2 setting jets. So I guess when I shock I will run the clean cycle but change the jet setting 1/2 way through that way everything will get clean. I think I have to wait about 24 hours after I put the MPS in otherwise the chlorine will do nothing, right? The tub is on 115v and is STILL not "ready" so it's not that big of a deal to wait until tomorrow to chlorine shock.
It is very hard to wait though!
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I think I have to wait about 24 hours after I put the MPS in otherwise the chlorine will do nothing, right?
nlittle,
I am not aware of any reason why MPS would adversely affect chlorine. Perhaps someone else has specific knowledge on this? I also recall that some MPS has chlorine in it; assuming my recollection is correct, then that would argue against the two being incompatible.
I'll try to track some info down, but it may be a few hours before I can do so. I really think you can go ahead and shock now.
Best,
Vermonter
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nlittle,
A quick check and MPS comes as an "Enhanced Shock" (the name depends on the brand) and it does contain dichlor although it looks like it doesn't result in a normal "shock" level of chlorine.
I would use dichlor and shock to 10 ppm or above, circulate everything (keep your cover open) for a couple of hours (to help eliminate a biofilm, if present, and then check to see when the chlorine drops to about two or less and you should be fine.
If you can, with the heat off is fine, shock higher (even to 20+ ppm (dilute with bottled water to get the reading in the range of your test strips or other measurement technique), circulate for two hours, drain and refill. Add enough chlorine to get to 2 - 3 ppm and then either use the tub or wait for the free chlorine to drop. If you add chlorine to achieve 2 - 3 ppm FC after you use the tub, then it usually will have a FC level of less than 1 ppm the next day when you would likely use the tub.
Vermonter
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Thanks again!
I have just opened her up and added the chlorine. I will let it cycle thru for awhile and then switch it to the other jets and let it go again. I have to say I'm not sure if I can let it run for 2 hours on each cycle but I will be as patient as I can. I have already accepted there will be no getting in the new spa today. But there is always tomorrow...assuming it is up to temp by then! :-?
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Vermonter - yes, as of 2006, the HS Grandee still has 2 pumps, and the '07 has 2 pumps, but the different water feature makes one a 2 stage.
People thought I was nuts when I first filled my tub, because the dealer told me 2 Tbsp of dichlor after filling. It raised my chlorine levels past 10ppm for a couple days, but I was sure everything that MAY have been left to breed in the plumbing was dead....It may have been overkill, but I haven't had any weird rashes appear, so I'm okay with the extra time it took.
I also use the "clean" button after soaking, if it's been a short soak. However, I've found that the most water to flush the system is by opening the diverter valves to the 1/2 way point so all the jets blow. They might not each push water through as quickly, but the water level by the filters is substantially lower than if I have the valves open fully one way or the other.
I try to take the info I get on here and use it as it best works for our situation, YMMV.
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Off topic by a mile, but I found it very ironic that TL is a senior level and Vermonter a newbie, when Vermonter is a person who is one of the most knowlegeable in the industry in my opinion when it comes to the chemistry stuff.
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I will let it cycle thru for awhile and then switch it to the other jets and let it go again. I have to say I'm not sure if I can let it run for 2 hours on each cycle but I will be as patient as I can.
nlittle,
Sorry for the late response - just got back from picking my son up from his high school Outing Club's ski/snowboard session.
I'm not certain your HS is the same as mine with respect to pump operation, but assuming you can run both pump trains at the same time, then that is what you should do. There is no benefit to running one and then the other.
I should clarify that the two hour "run time" is, from my experience, only needed for the initial startup or if you ever run into some type of microbial contamination issue. While it is a topic for a future post, the high velocity (feet per minute flushing within the plumbing) resulting from operating the main pumps is a key to either act as a proactive approach for avoiding formation of a biofilm or to take care of a biofilm if it exists. In your case, I'm assuming there may be some biofilm from the manufacturer's testing of the tub (and the residual water), so two hours of 10 - 20 ppm FC should do a pretty decent job at taking care of it (although if you ever have a severe biofilm, a more agressive approach is needed).
Normally, after you use the tub, dose it to a Free Chlorine (FC) level of 2 - 3 ppm and then operate both pump trains for about 10 minutes. Shut them off and, in the case of HS, you're done with filtration until you use the tub again.
Please remember that whenever you are circulating chlorine it is important to have all valves and jets (and wetted surfaces) "on" so that the chlorinated water can make contact with all those surfaces.
So...to sum up, operate both pumps at the same time and you should be fine.
Vermonter
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Oh, so probably I put the smart jet system halfway instead of 3 or 9 oclock?
I will try that.
The word biofilm is really kinda grossin me out and the fact that I would be able to see it is even worse...
What does it look like?
At this point my water is super clear and I have had both pumps running on full blast quite a few times for 10 to 15 minutes each time....I feel pretty comfortable.
I am going to check chem right now and maybe take my first soak!!
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Off topic by a mile, but I found it very ironic that TL is a senior level and Vermonter a newbie, when Vermonter is a person who is one of the most knowlegeable in the industry in my opinion when it comes to the chemistry stuff.
yeah, ironic, isn't it? ::) He's got better things to do with his time than I do....I did most of my posting asking questions in preparation of buying a spa, then in balancing the water, etc. And I'm laid off for the winter again, so be prepared for more posts from me......
You'll notice I never said that I know more than Vermonter, or anything like that....because it would be a LIE....I've just posted more. :P ;)
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Oh, so probably I put the smart jet system halfway instead of 3 or 9 oclock?
yep, that's how I get every jet open at the same time on my Grandee.
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Arctic has what I assume to be similar to the "clean" cycle of the HS tubs. It runs the main pump/filter for 45 minutes. I have opted to ignore that setting, and instead I turn all three diverters to midway, and turn all three pumps on. They automatically go off after 20 minutes, and I'd rather have all of my water moving around and filtering for 20 minutes than to have just the main pump on for 45 minutes with none of my new chlorine dose getting into all the pipes. I find it odd that the manufacturers bother to have established "clean settings" that we as owners then have to modify to do a good job as sanitation. :P
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Arctic has what I assume to be similar to the "clean" cycle of the HS tubs. It runs the main pump/filter for 45 minutes. I have opted to ignore that setting, and instead I turn all three diverters to midway, and turn all three pumps on. They automatically go off after 20 minutes, and I'd rather have all of my water moving around and filtering for 20 minutes than to have just the main pump on for 45 minutes with none of my new chlorine dose getting into all the pipes. I find it odd that the manufacturers bother to have established "clean settings" that we as owners then have to modify to do a good job as sanitation. :P
So, Anne, your pumps always automatically turn off after 20 minutes unless you are using a cycle that allows one to run for 45 minutes? Do I understand correctly?
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So, Anne, your pumps always automatically turn off after 20 minutes unless you are using a cycle that allows one to run for 45 minutes? Do I understand correctly?
All of the functions in the tub shut off after 20 minutes if not touched: light, pumps, bubbler (therapy air). So when I'm done tubbing, I add chlorine and hit all three pump buttons- and yes, all run for 20 minutes then shut off on their own. The instructions with the tub advise doing a "boost" filtration after "intense use" or after adding chems. This turns the main pump on (circulating through the filter) and O3 on for 45 minutes. But pumps 2 and 3 are unaffected, so no water circulates though those pipes.....so I dont do that anymore!
My comment was not exactly critical, I just dont understand why any "clean" or "boost" cycle would be considered all that useful if it does not ensure moving water and chems though ALL PIPES.
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I agree with Anne...and it's something I've wondered about since day one. The 10 minute run time is fine, but it SHOULD run both pumps for a true "clean" cycle...
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I just dont understand why any "clean" or "boost" cycle would be considered all that useful if it does not ensure moving water and chems though ALL PIPES.
The "boost" cycle and the 20 min shutoff are programmed into the controller. I have forwarded your comments to our R&D department and perhaps they will look into it with our suppliers.
Tom
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Thanks for all the info. I am getting a tub in a few months and have wondered about "what" might come with the tub ::)
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The "boost" cycle and the 20 min shutoff are programmed into the controller. I have forwarded your comments to our R&D department and perhaps they will look into it with our suppliers.
Tom
thanks, Tom. It seems that it would just be a matter of programming, and such a simple thing to change, that it makes me wonder my HS and Arctic (perhaps others?) do it that way.