Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: NE-Phil on December 06, 2006, 08:10:58 am
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I just saw this at Consumerist.com:
Hot Tub Dealer Sets Up "Competitive" Fair Where It's The Only Seller (http://www.consumerist.com/consumer/master-spas/hot-tub-dealer-sets-up-competitive-fair-where-its-the-only-seller-219550.php)
Apparently, the Minneapolis Better Business Bureau is involved and the president of MS is threatening to sue them! Like that will ever happen.
Phil
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Hmmm....I recall this saying that starts out "...if it walks like a duck..." ::)
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Did you notice the foam in the tub? She needs to get on the forum and fix her water.
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The dealer in question is right up the street from my office. They seem to be one of those places where everyting is always on sale.
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When my wife first began looking at hot tubs, she went to a show also supposedly representing various makes and models. It turned out that a fairly large dealer here in the Chicago area was the sole seller and only had Master and Barefoot spas (Hawkeye Mfg) on the floor.
I had never thought about it until I began reading others talk about similar shows in their areas. I don't think there is necessarily anything wrong with the marketing concept, but I do think the advertising for such shows should be honest and forthright as to what mfg's products will be displayed. It is curious, however, that the only dealers that seem to market this way are Master dealers.
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When my wife first began looking at hot tubs, she went to a show also supposedly representing various makes and models. It turned out that a fairly large dealer here in the Chicago area was the sole seller and only had Master and Barefoot spas (Hawkeye Mfg) on the floor.
I had never thought about it until I began reading others talk about similar shows in their areas. I don't think there is necessarily anything wrong with the marketing concept, but I do think the advertising for such shows should be honest and forthright as to what mfg's products will be displayed. It is curious, however, that the only dealers that seem to market this way are Master dealers.
They do it out here in MA as well.
I do think it's misleading, and therefore, wrong. It's not "illegal" but why would anyone want to deal with someone who is intentionaly misleading you? I agree that I'd think much more of this company if they'd advertised "Come to the MASTER spa show" rather than give you the impressoin is a show full of compeititors. Since they do this, I wouldn't even consider buying one of their products.
Least we forget also thier road side tent sales?
Or the infamouse Rebate program?
Master spas are shady.
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I do think it's misleading, and therefore, wrong. It's not "illegal" but why would anyone want to deal with someone who is intentionaly misleading you?
I guess colleges everywhere have restructured their marketing courses and deceit is now an acceptable practice. I rush home every night because I'm expecting a package I ordered that is a gift for my wife for Christmas. I want to get it before she sees it. I got home last night and the familiar brown and yellow tag is on my door and I'm wondering, did he leave it in back, or I have to go pick it up. As I get closer is cleary says DELIVERY, but its an add for a mortgage company. I called them and asked them why I would do business with someone who thinks they have to trick me into it? No good answer.
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That is not the first time that store has been in hot water, they were the focus of the voucher program from Master Spas a few years back.
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I got curious and accessed the Minnesota BBB website and looked up the record of this dealer. The BBB revoked their membership about 4 months ago, and the reason listed was that they were un-cooperative with the BBB over their advertising. The BBB contends that their advertising is misleading, and has given them an unsatisfactory rating. It was an interesting read.
Really, Master may make a fine spa, but the sales tactics just make me wary of the place. I eliminated it from serious consideration when I was spa shopping, just because of the way they choose to do business.
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Unfortunately, PT Barnum was right. :(
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There was nothing wrong with the spa she bought, right? She never said anything about being disappointed in the spa itself. Buyer beware no matter what you buy or where you buy it from. She really should have done some research before spending a bunch of cash for a high ticket item.
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There was nothing wrong with the spa she bought, right? She never said anything about being disappointed in the spa itself. Buyer beware no matter what you buy or where you buy it from. She really should have done some research before spending a bunch of cash for a high ticket item.
I agree, Buyer Beware, but when a company like Master always seems to be involved in shady or misleading practices, as a consumer, I have no problem saying to hell with them and spreading the word that you can get a better tub at a better price, from a better dealer. They are shooting themselves in the foot by doing allowing dealers to do this.
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There was nothing wrong with the spa she bought, right? She never said anything about being disappointed in the spa itself. Buyer beware no matter what you buy or where you buy it from. She really should have done some research before spending a bunch of cash for a high ticket item.
Spiderman
I agree that the woman in the report may not have been the most savy consumer, but negotiating price on a hot tub is difficult enough when the playing field is level. Here, Master Spas deliberately sets up a deceptive and illusory "multiple dealer environment" specifically to deceive the consumer into thinking their "show" is a competive market place and that the consumer can get a good deal based on that. Truly despicable and hopefully, illegal.
And I don't care if Master Spas really, truly, made the "Best Tub in the World". I would never knowingly deal with these kind of people.
To paraphrase Comicbook Man on the Simpsons:
WORST.
HOT TUB MAKERS.
EVER.
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I think Master spas needs to end this type of promotion and just to get themselves squared away and get down to the business of making a quality spa sold in a reputable manner. Heck, they can hire ex-Major League star Mark McGuire as their spokesman. That way whenever anyone wants to dredge up their reputation for the rebate scam or the fake multidealer shows he can say:
"We're not here to talk about the past".
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Kinda makes you wonder what kind of marketing support or guidance Master Spa gives their dealers. Are they encouraged to engage in these tactics?
Seems to be a central theme to these dealers.
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OK, let me begin by repeating that I am a happy MS owner who bought from one of many respected, hard working MS retailers--just like the HS, SD, Marquis, et al dealers that frequent this site. I do not like deceptive advertising. Deceptive advertising is in the eye of the beholder especially depending just how deceptive it is/may be. This doesn't mean that I feel every MS retailer is fair and above board just as I feel no other manufacturer can guarantee that all of their dealers are pristine.
I did not like this local, isolated news clip for a several reasons:
1. I do feel like the printed ad that was shown COULD make people wrongly think that there were 15 spa manufacturers at the show yet the poster clearly says that this is a "SPA, POOL and PATIO SHOW". It also lists these products available: spas, swimspas, gazebos, decking and pools. Is it so unreasonable to think that 15 manufacturers of spa, pool and patio equipment would be represented at the show? Of course the "MASSIVE SPA EVENT" COULD lead one to conclude that more than one spa manufacturer was represented yet nowhere does it say more than one spa manufacturer would be present. Deceptive? Eye of the beholder. All I am doing is reading what they had printed without injecting emotion...the "Fighting for You" news team did a good job of evoking emotion for their purposes. Once again, please read my first sentence in this paragraph before the flaming begins...especially the "COULD" part.
2. The woman bought her spa "a few years ago" at a show "much like the spa, pool and patio show......" So this team of "crack" reporters couldn't find anyone who purchased a spa at this show? This station brings out the worst in local reporting just as this retailer "seems" to bring out the worst in retailing. This is sensationalism at best. I doubt this woman could remember any details from her spa buying experience from "a few years ago". She didn't say anything about the price of her spa...she even said she thought she got a good deal...but NEVER did she say anything negative about her deal. She never said that she was unhappy with the spa. It was only later when someone told her that there was only one spa manufacturer there and then she felt like "ok, I guess they got me".
3. They did a real good job of showing that spa at its worst. Whoever "cleans and sanitizes" this tub should have their spa operators license revoked. Or possibly the woman should be ashamed of letting the news crew suds her spa...who knows...
Do I feel this retailer was perfectly above board with his advertising? No. Was he perfectly honest, clear and concise? No. Was his advertising a lie? No.
To be honest, I would probably read that ad and think there would be more than one manufacturer present but, after looking around just a bit, it wouldn't have been hard to figure out and I'm sure I would have been put off by the tactic...probably to the point of not wanting to do business with'em. This only puts them in the gray area between being perfectly up-front and honest and being nothing but a liar, cheat and thief...and there's a lot of room for most advertisers right in there with'em.
Knock corporate MS if you think they should be concerned about this particular retailer but don't make the easy mistake of taking the low road and associating all MS retailers with this particular outfit.
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Unfortunately, PT Barnum was right. :(
"There is a sucker born every minute, and two to take his money".
MS tactics are specifically intended to take advantage of stupid people, excuse me, gullible people as they intentionally make "confusing and mis-leading mis-statements" that are outright deceitful lies. It works very well for them. Their methods have been endorsed and encouraged, as well as being, nutured, taught, trained and developed into a science applying pshycology to the way the human minds works.
In this case, it make thousands of dollars for some, tens's of thousands for others, and even millions for those closer to the top. Why would they want to stop doing it?
Believe me, they know exactly what they are doing and they have become enviable experts at what they do, b/c they have been doing it blatantly now for more than 5 years. Honest and reputable dealers in this industry have tried in vain to make a difference in their tactics for as many years now, but still, fools follow the "pied piper". These fools seem to be skeptical and confused by the reputable dealers with good reputations, as they are "sold" by deceitful practices, believing in the lies they have been told. But then who really cares, they bought a seemingly good product even if it was through deceitful practices, they seem to be happy with the product.
This is not about their product, it is all about their marketing and that is better than their product. They will continue to do what they do, it works very well for them, and it has become a tremendously profitable way of doing business.
Lieing to people has become so much more acceptable today than ever before. Even our courts say there is NO LAW against it. It is just that the majority of us do not find it acceptable, but then do we always tell the truth when we talk.
"Make hay while the sun shines".
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Here is more on Master for you....
I wrote a few months ago that I had some customers that I could not get taken care of by Master. One was a cracked spa that we sat on a return authorization four months without an answer from Master as to when it would ship. They authorized the replacement and then would not give us an answer for 4 months.
Finally the customer (a good friend of mine BTW) called very upset and asked what he did to hurt our friendship? Master spa called him and said that they would deliver the spa from their new store in the state because I had a problem with him and didn't want to deal with it! Can you imagine the tenacity? Month after month, call after call to take care of my friend and then they tried to put the blame on me! Lucky that we are good enough friends that he called me!
I've called an attorney but I don't know that it will be worth the letter... It won't change the sleazy way that they operate, they would consider it a trophy!
Say what you will about the product... I would hesitate to buy from any company that has been caught in blatant lies as much as them!
Nixon was a decent President but we impeached him for dishonesty!
My hope is that good customers, honest dealers and caring employees involved with Master don't get hurt by the companies integrity issues.
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Windsurfdog:
I am very happy that you love your tub. I am also happy for you that you were smart enough to negotiate a good deal on it (I assume).
However, there is no doubt at this point that Master Spas has been running this sham show for years and it apparently is a very successful way for them to do business (because they keep doing it).
I also am personally convinced that the highest levels of their corporate structure condones this kind of "sharp dealing". The reporter in the story stated that while the PRESIDENT of Master Spa would not appear on camera, he stated that the company was contemplating a libel suit against the BBB. He didn't deny, condemn or otherwise distance his company from these practices. That alone tells me all I need to know about the Corporate structure of this organization. (And yes, I feel very sorry for the honest dealers who have invested in a Master Spa dealership. It must be very frustrating for them)
One last point. I sure would love to see Master Spa sue the BBB. BUT I GUARANTEE THEY WILL NEVER DO THIS. One can only imagine what a competent plaintiff's attorney or assistant attorney general could do if he or she had the opportunity to examine the company's corporate officers under oath. If they sold tickets to that show, I'd buy one.
And Surfdog, please note that almost everyone on this thread is discussing Master Spa's sales and marketing methods only. I don't think the issue is whether the spa itself is a good or bad spa.
Rich
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...However, there is no doubt at this point that Master Spas has been running this sham show for years and it apparently is a very successful way for them to do business (because they keep doing it).
I also am personally convinced that the highest levels of their corporate structure condones this kind of "sharp dealing". The reporter in the story stated that while the PRESIDENT of Master Spa would not appear on camera, he stated that the company was contemplating a libel suit against the BBB. He didn't deny, condemn or otherwise distance his company from these practices. That alone tells me all I need to know about the Corporate structure of this organization. (And yes, I feel very sorry for the honest dealers who have invested in a Master Spa dealership. It must be very frustrating for them)
Rich, you are mistaken. The talking head plainly said that he spoke to the president of "Master Pool and Spa", the local dealer, not MasterSpas corporate president. I wish we could get the facts straight before going off on tangents like these. Now stu made some factual points regarding corporate MS but nothing concerning corporate MS was mentioned by the sensationalists. Please check it out yourself.
One last point. I sure would love to see Master Spa sue the BBB. BUT I GUARANTEE THEY WILL NEVER DO THIS. One can only imagine what a competent plaintiff's attorney or assistant attorney general could do if he or she had the opportunity to examine the company's corporate officers under oath. If they sold tickets to that show, I'd buy one.
Once again, check the facts.
And Surfdog, please note that almost everyone on this thread is discussing Master Spa's sales and marketing methods only. I don't think the issue is whether the spa itself is a good or bad spa.
Please note that I did not once mention in my previous post anything regarding other posts that had comments about their product. This isn't about the product and, in my opinion, it isn't about MS corporate...this is about this one dealer. Before the flames continue, notice my last paragraph in my previous post re: corporate and other MS legitimate, respected dealers.
Let's deal with the facts of this sensationalism...don't read more into it than it already bears.
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Wind dog,
I too am glad you have a good tub and have had a good experince. I don't understand why you feel you need to come thier defense though? To me, I don't think it really has any reflection on you, and I'm glad you got one of the good dealers, and a decent tub. really.
But you can't deny that Master has a bad rep, for good reasons.
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I was going to go to one of their shows a few months back, just to take a peek, but I was afraid they'd have guys in the bushes taking down license plate info and following me home. :-[ I'm a delicate little flower, dangit, and it'd scare me straight outta gun cleaning night if someone banged on our door trying to replace the Grandee! :'(
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Wind dog,
I too am glad you have a good tub and have had a good experince. I don't understand why you feel you need to come thier defense though? To me, I don't think it really has any reflection on you, and I'm glad you got one of the good dealers, and a decent tub. really.
But you can't deny that Master has a bad rep, for good reasons.
Thanks for the kind words, Drew. I just like to stick with the facts...that's all. This is an isolated story about one dealer and most here have taken the opportunity to parlay it into an MS lynching. Would I go out of my way if I didn't own and be very happy with my MS experience...probably not. But I do have major problems with people who let emotions blur the facts...exactly what happens whenever MS hits the news. If I were an MS stock holder, I would be upset by some of the stuff that is reported at this site and would want corporate to answer for it. But, in the case of this post, the sensationalists are talking about ONE dealer...and look what some people posting here have turned that into.
And if I don't do it, who will? :)
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Wind dog,
I too am glad you have a good tub and have had a good experince. I don't understand why you feel you need to come thier defense though? To me, I don't think it really has any reflection on you, and I'm glad you got one of the good dealers, and a decent tub. really.
But you can't deny that Master has a bad rep, for good reasons.
Thanks for the kind words, Drew. I just like to stick with the facts...that's all. This is an isolated story about one dealer and most here have taken the opportunity to parlay it into an MS lynching. Would I go out of my way if I didn't own and be very happy with my MS experience...probably not. But I do have major problems with people who let emotions blur the facts...exactly what happens whenever MS hits the news. If I were an MS stock holder, I would be upset by some of the stuff that is reported at this site and would want corporate to answer for it. But, in the case of this post, the sensationalists are talking about ONE dealer...and look what some people posting here have turned that into.
And if I don't do it, who will? :)
Ahh, but we know, this isn't one dealer. These shows are all over the country. That's a fact. This is not an isolated inncident.
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The exact same ad for a spa show comes around twice a year in the lower Hudson Valley. The same dealer every year. The same story of 15 vendors. Just like WSD mentioned pool manufacturers 2, gazebo 2 or 3, patio furniture 3 or 4, umbrellas etc. in this dealers defense he did have 3 spa manufacturers there Master, Down East(still a master), and some soft side tubs. It was a little funny that the guy pushing Down east said the Master spas were over priced, and the guy pushing the master said the down east were a cheaper made model. They still wanted over 8000 for a Windsor SE.
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...And if I don't do it, who will? :)
How about an actual Master Spa dealer? I don't think we've actually heard from one on this thead yet, have we?
Phil
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(Quote) Rich, you are mistaken. The talking head plainly said that he spoke to the president of "Master Pool and Spa", the local dealer, not MasterSpas corporate president. I wish we could get the facts straight before going off on tangents like these. Now stu made some factual points regarding corporate MS but nothing concerning corporate MS was mentioned by the sensationalists. Please check it out yourself. (Quote)
Moonsurfdog:
My bad. I went back and listened to the report again and you are absolutely right that the reporter was talking about the President of the local dealer. I am sorry. However, this is not a new or isolated problem with Master Spa. People all over the country are familiar with these phony spa shows.
So, the question remains: Where the heck is the President of Master Spas? Why would he ever let this terrible PR situation blemish his company's reputation like this? Could it be that he may be looking at the bottom line and sees that these shows sell spas, and at a good rate of return? I don't know, but there must be a reason these shows continue. What are your ideas?
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This show basically has been roaming around the states for the past 3-4 years.
I've ran into it several times from Kansas City to Ashtabula, OH. It's the same guy. The Master dealer in Twin Cities has a less than stellar reputation to start and he probably was copying the idea. When I was still in the Twin Cities, it united several of us dealers to basically promote against him.
This is the kind of stuff that gives this industry a black eye. The BBB has no teeth. Master spas a couple years ago actually had a website set up to look like a legitimate 3rd party, unbiased group. They sent their prospects there in which they saw that Masters spas was rated #1 in 23 out of 24 catergories, the 24th they were rated #2. Hot Springs was number #1 in that category (it was color choice when Hot springs only had 3 colors to choose from) But still they are able to sell hot tubs.
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Ahh, but we know, this isn't one dealer. These shows are all over the country. That's a fact. This is not an isolated inncident.
Yes, this isn't the first time that shows like this have been mentioned here. My point is that this particular incident, the reporter's story, was not about anything other than this one isolated incident...that's all. You contend that they are all over the country...well, it seems as if it occurs in more than one place but, like I've said time and time again, I've never seen this in my neck of the woods. This still doesn't rule out MS corporate having knowledge or endorsing these shows yet it doesn't do more than implicate them. If this is standard MS corporate advertising philosophy, why haven't I seen a show anywhere close to me? Indeed I have a problem with this type of advertising--it certainly turns me off but I can see the continuum between pristine honesty and downright lying/cheating/robbery and this falls somewhere in the middle along with all other advertising. Where it falls in the continuum is a matter of judgment.
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I do not know for sure that the corporate office knows about these shows, but the salesmen I talked to at one claimed to work ni the factory.
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Indeed I have a problem with this type of advertising--it certainly turns me off but I can see the continuum between pristine honesty and downright lying/cheating/robbery and this falls somewhere in the middle along with all other advertising.
Middle? OK, maybe it falls somewhere between "pristine honesty and downright lying/cheating/robbery" but I'd have to say its scewed a bit away from the "pristine honesty" side. It's also more of a business practice than anything so I'm not sure I'd just call it advertising. Like the rebate issues of the past, it's short term gain at the expense of their reputation (and possibly long term growth) but it's their bus to drive...
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I do not know for sure that the corporate office knows about these shows, but the salesmen I talked to at one claimed to work ni the factory.
I would daresay it's a pretty safe bet they know about it at the highest levels. With all of the publicity and public exposure they're receiving on the internet, they would have to be fairly incompetent to NOT know. I'm sure that any major spa company has people highly placed in the organization that monitors these forums and media outlets. Watkins certainly does, Arctic does, Sundance/Jacuzzi, Marquis, and D-1 more than likely do, as well.
The reason they won't address these issues on a public forum is simple:
PLAUSIBLE DENIABILITY....that, and no legitimate argument to justify the repeated occurrences....PERIOD.
Terminator
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Indeed I have a problem with this type of advertising--it certainly turns me off but I can see the continuum between pristine honesty and downright lying/cheating/robbery and this falls somewhere in the middle along with all other advertising.
Middle? OK, maybe it falls somewhere between "pristine honesty and downright lying/cheating/robbery" but I'd have to say its scewed a bit away from the "pristine honesty" side. It's also more of a business practice than anything so I'm not sure I'd just call it advertising. Like the rebate issues of the past, it's short term gain at the expense of their reputation (and possibly long term growth) but it's their bus to drive...
Kinda like being a little bit pregnant.
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So, the question remains: Where the heck is the President of Master Spas? Why would he ever let this terrible PR situation blemish his company's reputation like this? Could it be that he may be looking at the bottom line and sees that these shows sell spas, and at a good rate of return? I don't know, but there must be a reason these shows continue. What are your ideas?
If corporate MS is behind the shows, then I think you hit the nail on the head...they sell spas. If this is some retailer(s) that is/are acting independantly, then spas are still selling. In this case, whether corporate knows and either encourages or turns a blind eye, they are still selling spas. I would find it hard to believe that corporate wouldn't know about the practice. Obviously, nothing they are doing is against the law though that still doesn't make it palatable to some/most.
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There was nothing wrong with the spa she bought, right? She never said anything about being disappointed in the spa itself. Buyer beware no matter what you buy or where you buy it from. She really should have done some research before spending a bunch of cash for a high ticket item.
If she had a problem with her spa its possible that part would have been cut from the story to focus on the false ad claim.
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Middle? OK, maybe it falls somewhere between "pristine honesty and downright lying/cheating/robbery" but I'd have to say its scewed a bit away from the "pristine honesty" side. It's also more of a business practice than anything so I'm not sure I'd just call it advertising. Like the rebate issues of the past, it's short term gain at the expense of their reputation (and possibly long term growth) but it's their bus to drive...
Excellent points....agreed.
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Windsurfdog said: "You contend that they are all over the country...well, it seems as if it occurs in more than one place but, like I've said time and time again, I've never seen this in my neck of the woods."
I've never seen an elephant in the flesh, but I've seen one on TV. Therefore, I'm willing to believe they probably exist. (I'm pretty gullible, though)
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Windsurfdog said: "You contend that they are all over the country...well, it seems as if it occurs in more than one place but, like I've said time and time again, I've never seen this in my neck of the woods."
I've never seen an elephant in the flesh, but I've seen one on TV. Therefore, I'm willing to believe they probably exist. (I'm pretty gullible, though)
I've seen the elephant up close and it stinks.
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I mostly look here but rarely post. I have been selling the Masterspa line for 7 years. I havent seen another Masterspa retailer post here but there may be one out there. My company is entering its 50th year in the pool/spa business in 2007, I have been here for 14 years. Once a year we go to the Philadelphia home show where there are normally 5 to 6 other spa retailers as well as every home product under the sun. It is always a productive event for us and in no way is it marketed deceptively. However 1 to 2 times a year the next closest Masterspa dealer to us does an event as described in this post. Inevidably we get some fallout from that from people who were lied to.
The "salespeople" who work those events are hired sharks who travel the country and never have to deal with the fallout of there lies and false promises.
So I guess my point is that even a Masterspa dealer has issues with these types of promotions.
By the way we have had nothing but great experiences with Masterspa corporate. No issues whatsoever with parts or support.
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Do you have any insight then, on Corporate Master Spas take on these allegedly deceptive shows, and other dealings like the rebate scam- which I believe the Minneapolis dealer in question on this thread also was a participant?
I'd think they'd at least have gotten wind of what's going on.
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Sorry, but I dont have any inside info on what Mastersapas reaction is to these types of shows. Next time I see our rep I'll try to pick his brain a little.
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After finishing Thanksgiving dinner, I headed out to the fair on an unusually cold night in Orlando. While the kids played, I headed over to the tent selling spas. One of them had a pop up video screen that seemed cool.
Just for kicks, I acted like an eager buyer and had trouble getting the master Spa rep to get up from his seat even though I was the only person in the tent.
When I asked the price, he told me they were having a special for 13k on the spa. I mentioned I saw similar models from Jacuzzi and Hot Spring for less and he went into a sales pitch about how they were the leader in the industry and the others were far behind. When i asked him who services the spas, he said any jacuzzi dealer in the area.
I felt like moving him into the dunking tank on that cold night.
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Sorry, but I dont have any inside info on what Mastersapas reaction is to these types of shows. Next time I see our rep I'll try to pick his brain a little.
I know there used to be a dedicated website that showed where the Master show was and where it was going in future weekends because I'd gone to it a few times and then went to a show to see this for myself (and found no exaggeration to the stories I'd heard). It's difficult to believe that it wasn't being overseen by corporate and I thought someone awhile back even commented on knowing the guy in charge of that at the plant (maybe it was Stuart who knew him, not sure though). I feel sorry for some of the local Master dealers who are just hard working people with a store but I gotta believe they drive away some good dealers when they come into their territory with their spa circus tent.
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The spa industry in general is in a weird place I believe.
Our market here is completely saturated with more dealers of various brands then I think it can support. Its seems to me that there is a big consumer demand for the show type event as a lot of spas are sold that way.
It can be difficult at times, but the only thing you can really do is continue to work hard and try to help people.
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morecowbell,
Thanks for joining in. I appreciate your comments. It's been pretty lonely around here as an MS advocate.... 8-)
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Yea I bet its real lonely as an MS advocate!
I was thinking about becoming a Hot Springs dealer so I can make friends. ;)
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...and happy customers! :)
Terminator
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Thankfully we continue to have plenty of happy customers.
I find people really love the Master product, as well as there experience with our company.
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That speaks well of your dealership and how ya'll do business. It's a crying shame that so many other MasterSpa dealers operate from a different perspective.
Terminator
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Im not sure what percentage of actual dealers participate in the goofyness.
But yes it a shame that ethics and respect are not used by all.
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I have a feeling this post will shortly be flushed.
In case anyone is interested in who we are please visit our site at www.niagarapoolandspa.com.
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I have a feeling this post will shortly be flushed.
In case anyone is interested in who we are please visit our site at www.niagarapoolandspa.com.
Love your handle. One of the great SNL skits.
"More Cowbell! Can't have enough cow bell!"
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I find it strange that industry professionals, investigative news teams, consumer advocates and customers all over the country have complained about or questioned the ethics of Master Spas over the last few years yet people still act like they have no idea about the issues and defend the marketing practices.
As a company we did not feel that the spas were as quality as other brands in and below the price range. We've had leaks in over 50% of what we sold, over 65% had problems with the top filters, 80% or more had jet issues. Almost every one of the Million plus dollars worth of Master Spas we sold has had a customer complaint of some kind.
Worse than that Master makes it very hard to get technical assistance or parts. They don't return calls, they are rude when we call them, they never ship when they say they will and seem to concentrate much more of their efforts on sales than customer service and quality control.
Want to have some fun if you own a Master? Take the side panels and insulation off, drain the spa, open the cover and then with the sun shining through the shell look and see how many thin spots you see. I have yet to see one that didn’t concern me when I did that.
I don't doubt that Niagara Pools has not had many of these issues simply because they are a very large dealer that Master wants to keep happy....Loosing an account like that would hurt. I do have extreme doubts that they haven't had any of these issues because I've talked with many, many existing and past dealers that have had similar experiences.
If our industry had more regulations and some kind of an ethics comity Master would be one of the first companies to be held to task and I don't think they would survive.
I'm past the point of trying to practice political correctness over this company, anyone that would read some of the stories that have circulated about Master in the last few years and buy the product regardless is taking a very serious gamble.
Having said all of this I will say that the difference between and good spa and a bad one can be a good dealer-for a few years....
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I havent had a whole lot of trouble competing against Master as the dealerships I've been around have changed hands about once a year. No joke.
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Our experiences with Masterspa are completely 180.
Saying that purchasing a Masterspa is a gamble is truly over the top.
We have parted ways with manufacturers in the past Just as you have with Master.
Doing that left us with a bad taste, but we did what was best for our business and customers and moved on.
It would be very easy to detail the problems we had with our prior spa line "which is very popular here." But our experience with them dosent make them a bad company.
Your personal experience with Masterspas doesnt make them a bad company.
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But how else can you judge weather a company is good or bad if not by experience? Im not saying that they are a bad company, but how does one determine this?
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I am able to see through the difficulties we experienced with our last spa line and understand that our bad experience dosent make them a bad product.
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I can tell you there are good retailers selling poor quality products.
There are good quality spas being sold by shady retailers.
80% of this industry are solid ethical dealers selling what they believe is the best spa available.
And then there is the Master spa road show, they also did it under the National Spa and Pool show trying to play off the NSPI. They were claiming all major spa lines available. When you called then prior to the event looking for a specific brand that you have been looking at they said they would have it when the set up the show. You get there and of course they don't have it but they have one that compares to it for a lot less. Your choices of course were Master, Down East and Freedom spas. In some markets they have actually played off the name of a local reputable dealer to make it appear that it is conjunction with them. Anybody that does this for a living knows the name behind this show and the fact that he is associated with Master.
Master spas started brought the cashable voucher program to this industry and they continue to give this industry a black eye. They are our Cousin Eddie showing up in our driveway at Christmas. After this little advertising practice gets shut down they will say "Shitter's full" and move on to the next questionable practice in which to sell tubs.
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Our experiences with Masterspa are completely 180.
Saying that purchasing a Masterspa is a gamble is truly over the top.
We have parted ways with manufacturers in the past Just as you have with Master.
Doing that left us with a bad taste, but we did what was best for our business and customers and moved on.
It would be very easy to detail the problems we had with our prior spa line "which is very popular here." But our experience with them dosent make them a bad company.
Your personal experience with Masterspas doesnt make them a bad company.
This is not just my bad experience with them! I repeat the there have been multiple things shared throughout the nation on various medias that talk about Masters lack of customer service and ethics....
I would be happy to try and do some research on as many BBB's across the country as I can and post those in addtion to the lengthy warning on troubleshooter.com about a dealer show when it was really Master Spas salesmanager and his show. Or, how about the Channel 9 expose in Minnasota about them.
Do you know why the cashback program failed after it had been in existance in other industrys for 12 years? It failed because of the the way that the Master Spa sales team presented it and the fact that they then filed suit to try and sue the trust. These two things more than anything else caused the bankruptcy.
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I brought this up over 2 years ago and was taken to task by several Master owners here. No one ever apologized for for it. For anyone in any shape or form to try and justify these types of things or in way try and imply they really are not so bad is just wrong and it is totally unfair to try and lump other makers into the mix who have never participated in any way or at any time in promotions of this type. Master spas might build a great spa but they market it many times in the most shady and unethical of ways.
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One last comment....
If this forum is to educate people shopping for spas or anyone trying to know more about spas in general then sending this to the "Dead Horse" section as we have Master spa issues in the past would be wrong.
These are the things people shopping for spas are here to find out, leave it in the rotation as an informational post.
Just because some members weary of the content doesn't me it isn't informative to others reading
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One last comment....
If this forum is to educate people shopping for spas or anyone trying to know more about spas in general then sending this to the "Dead Horse" section as we have Master spa issues in the past would be wrong.
These are the things people shopping for spas are here to find out, leave it in the rotation as an informational post.
Just because some members weary of the content doesn't me it isn't informative to others reading
I agree with Stuart. This is the type of discussion that is very helpful to a new spa shopper. There is very little one can do after they have been sucked into a tub at a "competitive" spa show. A shopper needs as much information as he or she can get before the sale.
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Yes, I agree with Stuart also. Let it ride. I don't have anything against this particular company but there are a few others with less than honorable sales tactics. Preventing someone from being scammed should be a good thing for this forum. I feel bad for folks when I hear about $2,500 re-stocking fees etc.
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One last comment....
If this forum is to educate people shopping for spas or anyone trying to know more about spas in general then sending this to the "Dead Horse" section as we have Master spa issues in the past would be wrong.
These are the things people shopping for spas are here to find out, leave it in the rotation as an informational post.
Just because some members weary of the content doesn't me it isn't informative to others reading
I appreciate the concern and your intent. But what is to stop someone with a particular grudge to create new users every few weeks to keep this at the top of the list? That is not in the normal character of most of our users, but not above what I have seen on some forums. Anyone still can use the search feature and come across the thread. I guess my final decision will be based on the continuing value of the information being added. The lack of which would really be a good qualifier for dead horse status.
2 disclaimers -
1. Personally, Master Spa looks like a decent spa to me and was my 2nd choice when I purchased. The shows in question , from personal experience, in my sole opinion are pure deception (not the official opinion of Whatsthebest Inc ;)
2. Somewhere in those official forum rules is something about not discussing decisions made my moderators. Well, in the interest of making this continue to be your forum, I've opened that up a bit. (I doubt I'll lose my job over that, but maybe I won't get as big a raise this year :) )
So that said, my powerful moderating decision is to evaluating the contiuning value of new information added after one week from the threads inception. Till then, have fun.
Boy, I sure wish Master would answer this subject in some sort of official manner. That would be worth it alone.
Note, posts made after midnight require much more editing and correction.
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Boy, I sure wish Master would answer this subject in some sort of official manner. That would be worth it alone.
You may have hit on a good standard to follow in cases like this. In the past, I have seen reps from a particular spa company respond on behalf of the company when the company is the subject of a legitimate critical thread. I assume most of the major spa manufacturers monitor these site.
I suggest that if a manufacturer does respond to legitimate questions, then put it in the "dead horse" section. If not, leave it on the main board since the issue has not been affirmatively addressed by the company. This standard might serve as an incentive for a manufacturer to respond to a legitimate issue. (Apparently, this standard could also get you fired and we don't want that!) :)
It is kind of amazing that Master Spa doesn't step up, but I guess its not surprising. I have never seen a response from this company, in these forums or otherwise, when these and other questionable "sales practices" (ie: the rebates) are talked about.
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As far as I can remember, only one "executive" ever tried to post here as a manufacturer's representative- that was the guy from Gulf Coast.
And he was pretty useless- IIRC, he tap danced around the legitimate questions and issues that were being discussed, then took his dolly and left.
I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a Master Spas corporate person (or any other major player for that matter) to come here.
I doubt they'd consider it a very useful way to spend their time.
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As long as we can deal with FACTS and not misrepresentations of facts....
As long as we can deal with opinions and differentiate between opinions and facts....
As long as posters will read others' opinions and try to ascertain their thoughts as a whole without picking a choosing isolated comments....
....then it doesn't really matter to me where this thread resides. Obviously, this subject is dredged up every 6 months or so but normally it is in reaction to yet another road show advertisement, so, in one case, it is beating a dead horse yet, in another, a new instance is born. So, Bill, it's a tossup and I support whatever decision you make.