Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: lagator43 on September 20, 2006, 10:49:57 am
-
I have been shopping and researching. Arctic spas claim that by placing the mechanical components under the spa shell it helps your heating costs. Beachcomber places their mechanical systems under the step and fill the entire cabinet with 4 wall insulation. They claim this is superior because of the extra insulation. Who is telling the truth? Help.
-
I think they're both right and both wrong. Pumps generate heat while running, albeit a negligible amount therefore if they are mounted within the shell any heat they lose is lost to the shell. The down side is there is less room for insulation. Any pumps mounted outside of the shell provide more room for insulation but the heated water is circulated outside of the insulated area where it gives up heat. I saw the pump location on their website and neither the pumps or the piping seem to be insulated.
-
Both salesman are lying to you.
-
This ties back to the infamous and on-going Full Foam or Thermal Pane debate. Artic insulates it's tub by employing a Thermal Pane system (heated air from the motors to create an insulating barrior in the cabinet). Beach Comber insulates it's tub with Full Foam. Beach Comber's difference from other Full Foam manufactuers is the motor/pumps are not in a section of the cabinet but rather in a seperate box (the steps).
Sorry, you wont get a clear anwers on "what's best", because there isn't one. You can go over to the Dead Horse section of this forum and read up on it. The best you will get is opinion. There is no credible data that clearly shows one technolyg as being superior to the others.
I will say both of those brands have been recognized in this forum as being a quality unit. Don't let the insualtion of either one of these units be the deciding factor between the two.
Oh, and don't mind sledjunki...he's our "special member" that thinks everyone is lying to him. ;)
-
I have a friend with a beachcomber that I've done some work on. I'll say one thing for the external equipment location that I haven't heard mentioned, it sure makes working on the equipment easy.
-
I like the Beachcomber method, but Arctic is a quality spa as well.
-
I am a biased Beachcomber owner so take this comment for what it is worth. When I was shopping the Arctic salesperson was slamming Beachcomber pretty hard, when I asked the Beachcomber salesperson he would only comment on the benefits of Beachcomber and never said anything about other brands even when I had mentioned the Arctic comments. I bought the Beachcomber because of the dealer and it's a quality tub.
Ray
-
Rayman, what does beachcomber put on the bottom of their tubs. I was told by a coleman salesman that the wood frame and the insulation are exposed on the bottom of the tub.
-
I think they're both right and both wrong. Pumps generate heat while running, albeit a negligible amount therefore if they are mounted within the shell any heat they lose is lost to the shell. The down side is there is less room for insulation. Any pumps mounted outside of the shell provide more room for insulation but the heated water is circulated outside of the insulated area where it gives up heat. I saw the pump location on their website and neither the pumps or the piping seem to be insulated.
Most spa pumps are 50-75% efficient at converting electrical energy into mechanical energy. A single 3hp pump that is 75% efficient, running at full load, will produce about 870W of "waste" heat. That is over 20% of the output of a 4kW heater - not what I'd call "negligible". Of course, the pump isn't necessarily being run 100% of the time, either, so that would affect the total heat produced by the motor.
In theory, the Arctic Spas design would be more efficient than a full-foam tub at transferring this waste heat into the water. This is energy that the heater won't need to supply.
Regards,
Altazi
-
I've been doing the same homework.
Up until this year, the Beachcomber tubs had no bottom "cover". The 2006 models are enclosed with a composite polymer base called a "PermaSeal foundation". Ya. I'm reading all the brochures! ::)
I have to say that I'm impressed by Beachcomber tubs. Their position in the market is geared towards long term dependability. There are no head cushions to wear out, the equipment is easily serviceable, and their shells are really comfortable. My only gripe as a tub-shopper is that their sticker price can be misleading.
In order to get some of the options that I like about their product (24/7 circ "hush" pump, 4 wall insulation, "turbo" air pump), I have to add their "optional" Limited Edition package for several $$ more. Turns out that this dealer doesn't stock the tub without the "options" so I don't have much of a choice. If I decide on Beachcomber for their product (it's a close race right now) I will negotiate price, but the "add ons" make this tub about $1500 more expensive than a comparable Caldera or Sundance.
It all is going to come down to the wet test, I'm sure.
BTW, we sat in the Artctic tub too. Completely different feel. Tubs are really geared towards individual seating - lots of armrests and pockets - more angular and less "roundy". We wanted something a bit more open-concept for the times when friends pile in!
Good luck with your decision! Please let us know how it goes.
-
Altazi,
I think if you factor in how much of this waste heat actually gets transfered into the water as opposed to being lost to the ambient temp as well as how little actual run time there is, as you noted, I would say not much is gained. Just an opinion, I could be wrong. I just don't think it's a big enough selling point.
-
I think they're both right and both wrong. Pumps generate heat while running, albeit a negligible amount therefore if they are mounted within the shell any heat they lose is lost to the shell. The down side is there is less room for insulation. Any pumps mounted outside of the shell provide more room for insulation but the heated water is circulated outside of the insulated area where it gives up heat. I saw the pump location on their website and neither the pumps or the piping seem to be insulated.
Most spa pumps are 50-75% efficient at converting electrical energy into mechanical energy. A single 3hp pump that is 75% efficient, running at full load, will produce about 870W of "waste" heat. That is over 20% of the output of a 4kW heater - not what I'd call "negligible". Of course, the pump isn't necessarily being run 100% of the time, either, so that would affect the total heat produced by the motor.
In theory, the Arctic Spas design would be more efficient than a full-foam tub at transferring this waste heat into the water. This is energy that the heater won't need to supply.
Regards,
Altazi
Very good explanation Al. Only one thing I would like to add. Rather than say the pumps don't run 100% of the time it should read the pumps only run for 4-6 out of the 24 hours in a day. So they are not creating heat for most of the time. Now a little 48 frame 24/7 circ pump on the other hand????? I believe that's an option on the Arctic. Might be a worthwile investment.
In regards to the poster, both those tubs will be pennys difference to operate, get the one your butt is most comfortable in. And the one that the dealer treats you the best.
-
Lets not forget that Beachcomber's equipment is in a completely insulated cabinet as well. When people say they are outside, they are actucally inside their own insualted room capturing heat from a 48 frame circulation pump that runs 24 hours a day.
Most companies that use dead air space insulation fail to insulate their door. Look next time. At least in the 20 years I have been in the industry every portable spa with the equipment on the inside has never had insulation on the door, would you not get heat loss from that, like your garage? But I digress. The most important thing in choosing a hot tub is your comfort. You need to feel good in it so you use it more. You can save a lot of money on electricity if you never use your tub.
-
Hello All,
I have no dogs in this fight. I make no claims regarding the thermal superiority of any spa design. I couldn't do so unless I had a wide variety of tubs at my disposal for in-depth (no pun intended) testing. Of course, if the manufacturers wanted to supply me with all of these spas for testing, I would make reasonable efforts to accommodate them! :D
To Repeat_Offender: You are correct about the total heat output of the pump being affected by how long the pump runs. I did mention that in my post, though :) I also said "In theory. . ." Clearly there are many real-world factors determining how much of the pump's "waste" heat will make it into the water.
My point here is that in the Arctic Spas-style product, more of this waste heat is LIKELY to enter the water, as opposed to the classic full-foamed tub, where the equipment is thermally isolated. Now, I know that there are some FF designs that make efforts to reclaim some of this waste heat - whether these are of comparable thermal performance of the Arctic Spa products is not knowledge in my possession. I can imagine a full-foamed design that can capture much more of the waste heat from the motors - and it would be utterly cost-ineffective. Who would spend an extra $10k+ to save a few pennies each month??? :o
In any event, it seems a shame to just dump what can be kilowatts of waste heat out into the air, instead of trying to put some of it into the water. I applaud all spa designs that make effort to reclaim some of this waste heat.
I strongly support all who state that the comfort of the tub is far more important thany trying to save a few pennies each month. Who cares if your tub's electric bill is $10 cheaper than your neighbors, if you'd rather be in your neighbor's tub than your own?
Ditto the comments about a good, local dealer. Who ya gonna call? 8-)
Regards,
Altazi
-
Who is telling the truth? Help.
Wow- this has been a great thread. Granted FF vs TP seems like an old issue, but this is a nice friendly debate about interesting stuff......
Sounds like the answer to the above is that there IS no "truth." One guy is selling apples, and the other is selling oranges. If both apples and oranges provide part of your daily fiber and vitamin intake for the day, and both have good antioxidants, and are fresh and well grown, then you just have to pick which fruit you prefer. If the apple salesman is a jerk, or the oranges are overpriced, that makes your decision harder. However, I dont this too many people would argue that in general apples and oranges are both healthy choices.
-
I sell Pumpkins
-
Rayman, what does beachcomber put on the bottom of their tubs. I was told by a coleman salesman that the wood frame and the insulation are exposed on the bottom of the tub.
Yes Beachcomber has put a bottom on their 2006 lineup.
-
Great analogy, Anne! 'Cept, now I'm hungry for fruit salad! ;)
-
Who is telling the truth? Help.
Wow- this has been a great thread. Granted FF vs TP seems like an old issue, but this is a nice friendly debate about interesting stuff......
Sounds like the answer to the above is that there IS no "truth." One guy is selling apples, and the other is selling oranges. If both apples and oranges provide part of your daily fiber and vitamin intake for the day, and both have good antioxidants, and are fresh and well grown, then you just have to pick which fruit you prefer. If the apple salesman is a jerk, or the oranges are overpriced, that makes your decision harder. However, I dont this too many people would argue that in general apples and oranges are both healthy choices.
Great analogy ;D
-
Who is telling the truth? Help.
Wow- this has been a great thread. Granted FF vs TP seems like an old issue, but this is a nice friendly debate about interesting stuff......
Sounds like the answer to the above is that there IS no "truth." One guy is selling apples, and the other is selling oranges. If both apples and oranges provide part of your daily fiber and vitamin intake for the day, and both have good antioxidants, and are fresh and well grown, then you just have to pick which fruit you prefer. If the apple salesman is a jerk, or the oranges are overpriced, that makes your decision harder. However, I dont this too many people would argue that in general apples and oranges are both healthy choices.
Perhaps we have learned to gently pat the dead horse, instead of beating it ;)
-
The 2006 models are enclosed with a composite polymer base called a "PermaSeal foundation".
Silent water and Rayman thanks for the answer. I could not find that info on their web site or in the brochure the dealer gave me.
-
His lips are moving.. ;D ;D ;D ;D
-
Or. . .
Q. What is the difference between a Spa salesman and a used-car salesman?
A. The used-car salesman KNOWS he's lying! ;D
-
I could not find that info on their web site or in the brochure the dealer gave me.
Whoops! Sorry 'bout that. I found the term "Permaseal foundation" on the quote that the dealer prepared for me. Don't think I saw it in the literature. No way you'd know unless he told you.
I had to distract the poor salesperson from his monologue about Chris Carter (yes - apparently the producer of the X-files owns a Beachcomber - 8-)whoopie!~) to ask about the base and the cover...
-
Perhaps we have learned to gently pat the dead horse, instead of beating it ;)
Well look at that! Another great analogy! I'm usually a fan of patting, not beating horsies and other critters.
:)
-
This thread seems to be almost over and I know this is an exhausted subject. Industry types must be tired of it but allow me as a newbie to offer you my opinion, which was learned thru my spa hunting trip over the last 6 weeks.
I am not a dealer so I came into the process without any biases. I knew nothing about hot tubs but tried to educate myself to the best of my ability. What I learned is that there are 3 distinct methods of mfg a hot tub - full foam, thermopane, and heatlock. I think we all know about the process of FF, but there seems to be a lot of confusion about the latter 2. The TP method of production to my knowledge consists of foaming the perimeter of the cabinet AS WELL AS the complete bottom of the spa, leaving a chamber of airspace which heats up thru use of motor pumps. The heatlock system (used by Arctic only to my knowledge) foams the perimeter of the cabinet and ONLY the area between the lip of the shell and the cabinet (where outside air can leak in). There is NO foam placed against the bottom of the shell. When I began to think about this difference, I came to the conclusion that the TP people were self-defeating their objective by creating an insulation layer of foam between their shell and the heated chamber. Arctic, on the other hand, created an environment which allowed for maximum heating of the shell via the the heated air below it. So I ruled out the TP brands on this basis, as well as the poor QC and high level of consumer objections against many of them. (Coleman & Master excluded)
Next, most arguments between the FF and the non-FF folks center around cost efficiency and repair costs. I have never seen any evidence by the FF people suggesting that their system is less expensive to operate but I have seen a study (admittedly commissioned by Arctic) that shows the Heatlock system to be on average less expensive to operate than comparable FF models. (Their study seems to be objectively administered as one Arctic model was not in the top echelon of efficiency, and no other mfgs have to my knowledge objected to the study).
More importantly to me was the cost of repair to FF vs non FF products. If there is one consensus in this industry it's this. HOT TUBS WILL LEAK SOONER OR LATER! Well, as a projected long term owner, I wanted the spa which would cost the least amount of money and time to repair. In my inspection of many brands and using my own good logic, I came to the easy conclusion that an open method of production like the Arctic would HAVE TO BE the easiest to locate and repair a leak.
So I await delivery of my new Arctic Tundra Legend SE. I hope I have made a wise decision and will report objectively as to energy costs and quality of their product. I will be very honest with all, especially in light of the fact that the Arctic line is at the upper end of the cost scale (although IMO you get a lot more for your money in terms of features, jets, etc, than other comparably priced units).
-
I'm curious what was the determining factor for you choosing Arctic vs. other brands?
Was it the Heatlock design? If so why? Because of the potential cost savings in electricity?
-
Congrats on your purchase. The waiting is the hardest part. I love my Summit Legend SE, and the Tundra seems to be a great seller.
When you sit in it for the fisr time in your own back yard, don't worry- you wont be thinking about TP vs FF vs Heatlock...... :)
-
If there is one consensus in this industry it's this. HOT TUBS WILL LEAK SOONER OR LATER!
There is no such consensus unless you're talking about "forever". A good spa should last you 10+ yrs and it is not uncommon to see 15, 18 or even 20 yr old spas out there is they are well made. You do not need to expect that all of those would have leaked at some point. My spa is 8 yrs old and has never leaked and I have no expectation that it will leak in the next 10 yrs but there is certainly a chance. Now if you were to ask me if it will leak in the next 80 yrs I might be less confident but there is somewhat of a finite life expectancy of your spa. If it is built well you do not need to sit there expecting that it will leak within the spa's life expectancy. Certainly there is a certain % will leak but it should be VERY very low rather than some "sooner or later" expectation as you've been led to believe. Again, I'm talking about quality built spas.
-
I have a 93 D1 ff no leaks to date. When I buy a new spa it will be my comfort and not ff or tp. As long as you buy from a reputable spa manufacturer I don't think the insulation should be the deciding factor. If I save 5 bucks a month how much is it worth if my tub is uncomfortable and I don't use it?
-
I'm curious what was the determining factor for you choosing Arctic vs. other brands?
Was it the Heatlock design? If so why? Because of the potential cost savings in electricity?
Good questions. I don't want to ramble on the Arctic line; some folks might think I'm a dealer. I'm not so I will just refer you to their website and you can read for yourself. It was just our opinion that Arctic makes the highest quality product in the market so that was our NUMBER ONE reason for our decision. The Heatlock system was a HUGE singular reason why we also purchaed one, and yes, the possible energy savings was also a factor (although I have to be fair with the FF people, we will wait to see on that one). But the Alberta study seems to suggest we will spend less on heating our spa than a FF here in metro Chicago. (see my full post on 'who is telling the truth, Arctic or Beachcomber?') We await it's delivery to us in mid Oct.
-
If there is one consensus in this industry it's this. HOT TUBS WILL LEAK SOONER OR LATER!
There is no such consensus unless you're talking about "forever". A good spa should last you 10+ yrs and it is not uncommon to see 15, 18 or even 20 yr old spas out there is they are well made. You do not need to expect that all of those would have leaked at some point. My spa is 8 yrs old and has never leaked and I have no expectation that it will leak in the next 10 yrs but there is certainly a chance. Now if you were to ask me if it will leak in the next 80 yrs I might be less confident but there is somewhat of a finite life expectancy of your spa. If it is built well you do not need to sit there expecting that it will leak within the spa's life expectancy. Certainly there is a certain % will leak but it should be VERY very low rather than some "sooner or later" expectation as you've been led to believe. Again, I'm talking about quality built spas.
That' why I stated "sooner or later". Yes, a quality built spa could go a lifetime without leaks, but all I'm saying is that leaks are possible with any, including Arctic. If a leak does develop, the argument is over as to which unit will be easier to repair. Common sense tells all of us that finding and repairing a leak in a FF tub will be definitely more difficult and time consuming to repair. But I did not buy the Arctic ONLY because of the Heatlock system, but rather for a variety of other quality issues, # of jets, comfort, seating arrangements, etc.
-
Congrats on your purchase. The waiting is the hardest part. I love my Summit Legend SE, and the Tundra seems to be a great seller.
When you sit in it for the fisr time in your own back yard, don't worry- you wont be thinking about TP vs FF vs Heatlock...... :)
Thanks for your kind words. I very much enjoyed looking at your pics of your installation. I knew it was an Arctic based upon their second-to-none real wood cabinet! I am planning my install similar to yours. And what another great Arctic feature - the Forever Floor - which does not require a concrete, tile, brick, etc base - just crushed stone! When my dealer comes out to install, he will guarantee my level which will assure my lifetime shell warranty. (the Summit was our second favorite design). You gotta love all those jets!
-
My opinion is you shouldn't have used insulation and/or quality as a deciding factor in your spa purchase.
Now if you would have said something like..
I liked the look, color, and feel of the arctic and, to boot I got an exceptional price that nobody else could beat when comparing the features that I thought were important to me..
That would be a different story..
Either way, enjoy the rest of the process, and your hot tub..
-
I wouldn t really say the Air tight scheme of things has longevity
Wesj53"The TP method of production to my knowledge consists of foaming the perimeter of the cabinet AS WELL AS the complete bottom of the spa, leaving a chamber of airspace which heats up thru use of motor pumps. The heatlock system (used by Arctic only to my knowledge) foams the perimeter of the cabinet and ONLY the area between the lip of the shell and the cabinet (where outside air can leak in). There is NO foam placed against the bottom of the shell"
(http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k45/Pathfinder_09/smokey_2.jpg)
This is a pic of the lip of an Arctic as the somke proves its not air tight
-
If thermal lock insulation or whatever people call their dead air space insulation is so good, why don't they use it in their covers. Lets make a a cover with an open area in between some foam and heat it with a pump 8 hours a day. Just curious.
As for a Beachcomber losing heat, while sitting in a 750 this weekend, we ran the jets for 40 minutes straight and the temp went up from 104 to 105 so much for heat escaping from a full foam tub with the equipment "on the outside"
I've said it before and I'll say it again. Choose comfort first
-
My opinion is you shouldn't have used insulation and/or quality as a deciding factor in your spa purchase.
Now if you would have said something like..
I liked the look, color, and feel of the arctic and, to boot I got an exceptional price that nobody else could beat when comparing the features that I thought were important to me..
That would be a different story..
Either way, enjoy the rest of the process, and your hot tub..
My words, number 1 reason for buying the Arctic was 'the best quality spa in the market', not the insulation. Yes, my wife and I also liked the beautiful wood cabinet and the feel of the 75 jets, seating arrangement, as well as a whole variety of other items, but I didn't want to bore you with the details.
-
If thermal lock insulation or whatever people call their dead air space insulation is so good, why don't they use it in their covers. Lets make a a cover with an open area in between some foam and heat it with a pump 8 hours a day. Just curious.
As for a Beachcomber losing heat, while sitting in a 750 this weekend, we ran the jets for 40 minutes straight and the temp went up from 104 to 105 so much for heat escaping from a full foam tub with the equipment "on the outside"
I've said it before and I'll say it again. Choose comfort first
Your first comment doesn't even dignify a response. The more I'm on these websites, the more I find people can't read and understand or want to listen to different opinions. And I never ever said anything about a Beachcomber. See ya all much later.
-
Next, most arguments between the FF and the non-FF folks center around cost efficiency and repair costs. I have never seen any evidence by the FF people suggesting that their system is less expensive to operate but I have seen a study (admittedly commissioned by Arctic) that shows the Heatlock system to be on average less expensive to operate than comparable FF models. (Their study seems to be objectively administered as one Arctic model was not in the top echelon of efficiency, and no other mfgs have to my knowledge objected to the study).
Just a little clarification on the Arctic Spa Thermal Study:
(1) This study was done on each spa independently. In other words not at the same time, hence each product was being tested in fluctuating conditions including differences in ambient temperature and spa water temp of each model tested.
- The power consumption charts which are available to the public infact show that the HotSpring spa outperformed any of the other spas tested based upon kilowatt usage. Everyone knows how our energy bill is formulated....Kilowatt usage!
(2) The figures that Arctic Spas used to determine the outcome of the study is completely altered by the fact that the data used was created by dividing the total power consumed by the volume of water in each spa.
- This calculation works in Arctic Spas favor because the spas tested did not all have the same water capacity. Two of the Arctic spas tested both have larger volumes of water then the HS spa tested. Obviously, when dividing the total power consumed by a larger # the result will falsly improve the Arctic figures. When a similarly sized Arctic spa was tested compared to the same size HotSpring model, even with their erroneous calculations, the HS spa consumed significantly less energy.
(3) In this study The HotSpring Spa is labled with an asterisk in all the power consumption charts. This shows that the spa does not have Auto-filtering, or that the filtering must be started manually. Infact, HotSpring spas have a 24hr circ pump for filtering with no need to manually start any filtering cycles.
- The Alberta Research Counsil activated the HotSpring main jet pump in addition to the 24 hr circ pump for filtering cycles for a period of time equal to the Arctic Spa. All the other spas tested were done so while they were filtering on low speed, while the HS model was tested while pumps were on high speed. It would be understandable how skewed the figures could be! Or not. :o
Even after the HotSpring Vanguard was tested unfairly with the pumps on high speed, it still consumed 40% less energy then the comparable sized Arctic Coyote model without the skewed figures. Even when adding in the false calculations, the Vanguard still consumed 20% less energy! ;)
-
If thermal lock insulation or whatever people call their dead air space insulation is so good, why don't they use it in their covers. Lets make a a cover with an open area in between some foam and heat it with a pump 8 hours a day. Just curious.
As for a Beachcomber losing heat, while sitting in a 750 this weekend, we ran the jets for 40 minutes straight and the temp went up from 104 to 105 so much for heat escaping from a full foam tub with the equipment "on the outside"
I've said it before and I'll say it again. Choose comfort first
Your first comment doesn't even dignify a response. The more I'm on these websites, the more I find people can't read and understand or want to listen to different opinions. And I never ever said anything about a Beachcomber. See ya all much later.
Wes, I think he assumed that you started this thread......thus the Beachcomber comment. Unfortunately, this is such a sticky topic that even the most level headed people get their knickers in a twist over it........and I'm not pointing that at InTooLong, but I can see where this is all about to go!!!! I wish that Arctic had never done that study. It gave Arctic dealers crap to spout to buyers, and as it's study methods seem less than scientific, it fueled the fire for HS people, too. Sigh. Perhaps I need to go relax in my poorly energy efficient but oh-so-comfy spa. ;)
-
If there is one consensus in this industry it's this. HOT TUBS WILL LEAK SOONER OR LATER!
There is no such consensus unless you're talking about "forever". A good spa should last you 10+ yrs and it is not uncommon to see 15, 18 or even 20 yr old spas out there is they are well made. You do not need to expect that all of those would have leaked at some point. My spa is 8 yrs old and has never leaked and I have no expectation that it will leak in the next 10 yrs but there is certainly a chance. Now if you were to ask me if it will leak in the next 80 yrs I might be less confident but there is somewhat of a finite life expectancy of your spa. If it is built well you do not need to sit there expecting that it will leak within the spa's life expectancy. Certainly there is a certain % will leak but it should be VERY very low rather than some "sooner or later" expectation as you've been led to believe. Again, I'm talking about quality built spas.
That' why I stated "sooner or later". Yes, a quality built spa could go a lifetime without leaks, but all I'm saying is that leaks are possible with any, including Arctic. If a leak does develop, the argument is over as to which unit will be easier to repair. Common sense tells all of us that finding and repairing a leak in a FF tub will be definitely more difficult and time consuming to repair. But I did not buy the Arctic ONLY because of the Heatlock system, but rather for a variety of other quality issues, # of jets, comfort, seating arrangements, etc.
... but "later" can be 1,000 years from now. If you were to take a reasonably high spa life number like 15 yrs then NO, there is no consensus that your spa will eventually leak from a permanent glue joint (obviously we're not talking pump unions and heater connections inside the equipment area which are different but also shouldn't give you issues). That is a long time scare tactic statement often made by one shady character in the spa business which makes many of us roll our eyes (I obviously don't know who passed it on to you) so when I read your statement (carefully) relative to some perceived consensus, I was merely commenting on it's inaccuracy.
-
My comment about the cover was done tongue in cheek and the longer i'm on these websites, the more I find people with no sense of humor.
You asked orginally about Beachcomber and when you go to Arctic's website, were you recieved alot of your information, they deliberately attack Beachcomber with their diagram and analogy of a heater on the outside of the house and how it doesn't make sense. Anything can be taken out of context.
Comfort is the most important thing when buying your tub, ask any professional that cares about the industry. Ask any professional that cares only about there product and that is where the debate starts. These forums are full of dealers disguising themselves as consumers making their opinions sound like fact. The only real fact is, those you feel more comfortable in their tubs use them more and they don't give a flip about electricity costs. If you are buying because of jet count, well that's another issue, but if you wet tested and liked it, who cares what anyone else thinks, and which point, why post?Unless you have an agenda. To all my fellow professionals that care about the industry and growing it, I salute you. For those here just to promote their agenda and disguise it as if they are a consumer, well I salute you also, for giving this industry a black eye.
-
You asked orginally about Beachcomber and when you go to Arctic's website, were you recieved alot of your information, they deliberately attack Beachcomber with their diagram and analogy of a heater on the outside of the house and how it doesn't make sense. Anything can be taken out of context.
No, he didn't. That was Lagator who started this thread.
These forums are full of dealers disguising themselves as consumers making their opinions sound like fact.
Whether something comes from the mouth of a dealer, or a dealer pretending to be a consumer, or a real consumer, it is still generally opinion. Even extremely honest, straight-forward consumer-advocate dealers are still biased toward their product. There is nothing wrong with that, but it should be recognized.
-
My comment about the cover was done tongue in cheek and the longer i'm on these websites, the more I find people with no sense of humor.
You asked orginally about Beachcomber and when you go to Arctic's website, were you recieved alot of your information, they deliberately attack Beachcomber with their diagram and analogy of a heater on the outside of the house and how it doesn't make sense. Anything can be taken out of context.
Comfort is the most important thing when buying your tub, ask any professional that cares about the industry. Ask any professional that cares only about there product and that is where the debate starts. These forums are full of dealers disguising themselves as consumers making their opinions sound like fact. The only real fact is, those you feel more comfortable in their tubs use them more and they don't give a flip about electricity costs. If you are buying because of jet count, well that's another issue, but if you wet tested and liked it, who cares what anyone else thinks, and which point, why post?Unless you have an agenda. To all my fellow professionals that care about the industry and growing it, I salute you. For those here just to promote their agenda and disguise it as if they are a consumer, well I salute you also, for giving this industry a black eye.
One of the reasons why people don't SOUND like they have a sense of humor is because many people on these sites don't read very carefully and comprehend very well. I thought my original post on this thread was quite clear and non-threatening to any other brand. I said my major reason for purchasing the Arctic was it's overall quality production - IMO, second to none in the industry from the bottom (Forever Floor) to the top (their Castcore Cover). Obviously, the Tundra was very comfortable for us but I didn't think to itemize it since it's preposterous to think someone would buy a spa that was uncomfortable. That is why we would never buy a tub that we could not wet test. I also said clearly that I liked the Heatlock system, but I didn't have absolute proof that it would be as efficient as FF systems. I was going to withhold judgment and then report back to this site as to my own energy results. And as Anne pointed out, I didn't even mention Beachcomber. And if you hadn't mentioned Beachcomber as the mfg Arctic was referring to, I nor most of the readers on this site would have ever known. So you have a lot of inaccuracies in your post and I just want to set the record straight.
I do appreciate imput such as that supplied by pkud. As I also mentioned, I have not heard much debate from the industry types on these sites about the Arctic study. Now I have and I will look once again at the Arctic study and re-evalute the credibility of the research.
-
Well at least you bought your tub based on comfort, feel, look, price, etc...
Honestly that wasn't the impression you gave with you post regarding quality, as well as the way you spoke of the insulation. I know it's hard to comprehend text but you should understand this is a hot tub forum and people can be very defensive of their brand, even when someone states facts like tub specifications.
I think most do it just to reasure themselves they made a good decision, since there is very little evidence of which actually is the best hot tub...
Which is sort of ironic considering the domain name.
-
Well at least you bought your tub based on comfort, feel, look, price, etc...
Honestly that wasn't the impression you gave with you post regarding quality, as well as the way you spoke of the insulation. I know it's hard to comprehend text but you should understand this is a hot tub forum and people can be very defensive of their brand, even when someone states facts like tub specifications.
I think most do it just to reasure themselves they made a good decision, since there is very little evidence of which actually is the best hot tub...
Which is sort of ironic considering the domain name.
Hey what do you know sledjunkie, I agree with almost everything you said!! Whether it's written emails or chat rooms, feelings and attitude are not expressed well; in fact, much of what is stated can be totally misinterpreted. Thus, I guess we all have to be very careful in what and how we write. But I never critiqued any brand; rather just tried to answer the thread's question IMO. I guess I opened some wounds or insulted somebody's feelings with my comments about the Arctic brand. I am finding - and this is definitely just my impression - that the Arctic line is gaining more popularity and based upon information that they are now in the top 10 of mfgs, they are also receiving more criticism of the way they produce their tubs from their competition. Thanks for your response.
-
I wouldn t really say the Air tight scheme of things has longevity
Wesj53"The TP method of production to my knowledge consists of foaming the perimeter of the cabinet AS WELL AS the complete bottom of the spa, leaving a chamber of airspace which heats up thru use of motor pumps. The heatlock system (used by Arctic only to my knowledge) foams the perimeter of the cabinet and ONLY the area between the lip of the shell and the cabinet (where outside air can leak in). There is NO foam placed against the bottom of the shell"
(http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k45/Pathfinder_09/smokey_2.jpg)
This is a pic of the lip of an Arctic as the somke proves its not air tight
Am I the only person here who is wondering why there is smoke pouring out of the Arctic spa cabinet?? :o
-
People think the Arctic chamber is air tight. I never made the statement and the Arctic literature I have doesn't state that it is. Rather, Arctic states that the chamber is a "sealed dead air space similar to that found in most houses in the northern parts of the US and Canada". We all know that houses are insulated but not air tight. Most HVAC experts I have talked to and heard don't think air tight on homes is a good thing; rather they should "breathe" to some degree.
In terms of why there is steam escaping between the shell and the cabinet (if we are interpreting the picture accurately), my only guess is that it was the result of operator error by not applying a continuous layer of foam in that seam. That should be easy to fix and probably covered under warranty. It's an interesting picture, but more interesting that someone on this site would retain such a photo. Makes you wonder if it's from an Arctic competitor!?
-
Now that I review the picture again, I am confused as to what is sitting on top of this tub. In addition, the photo is inconclusive as to where exactly the steam is rising from. It could be simply steam escaping from the tub itself without an Arctic cover on it. That cover is not an Arctic so I am somewhat suspect of the intent of this picture as well as the angle that it was shot at. Judge for yourself.
-
There is the "defending the brand" thing I was talking about...
-
In terms of why there is steam escaping between the shell and the cabinet (if we are interpreting the picture accurately), my only guess is that it was the result of operator error by not applying a continuous layer of foam in that seam. That should be easy to fix and probably covered under warranty. It's an interesting picture, but more interesting that someone on this site would retain such a photo. Makes you wonder if it's from an Arctic competitor!?
As many of the proffessionals on this board can attest to, there is a certain feeling you get when someone is shopping you. It may be the look on their face, their expertice on a certain product, their blatant mis-use of industry lingo, etc... It seems that if you (wesj53) are infact not affiliated with Arctic Spas, maybe you should be. I mean that as a compliment in the sense that you know so much about their product from a manufacturing standpoint and warranty performance, as well as the details of the cover itself and what it actually looks like in a picture. Not having even taken delivery of the product yet makes it even more impressive. :-/
-
It seems that if you (wesj53) are infact not affiliated with Arctic Spas, maybe you should be. I mean that as a compliment in the sense that you know so much about their product from a manufacturing standpoint and warranty performance, as well as the details of the cover itself and what it actually looks like in a picture. Not having even taken delivery of the product yet makes it even more impressive. :-/
For Pete's sake, at least be honest. You dont meant that as a complement, or you would not put in a dig like "not having even taken delivery...."
The photo is confusing. It was obviously taken by someone trying to make a point, and so the amount of information left out leaves it very suspicious. I dont have to be an Arctic dealer to figure that out. Obviously the cabinet in not air-tight. Why in the worlk would you want to do that????? I'm not a big fan of mold and other crawlies that would thrive in a warm, airtight space.
-
Boy, the level of subterfuge is getting to be a bit much...what is being gained by all this cloak and dagger stuff?
-
It seems that if you (wesj53) are infact not affiliated with Arctic Spas, maybe you should be. I mean that as a compliment in the sense that you know so much about their product from a manufacturing standpoint and warranty performance, as well as the details of the cover itself and what it actually looks like in a picture. Not having even taken delivery of the product yet makes it even more impressive. :-/
For Pete's sake, at least be honest. You dont meant that as a complement, or you would not put in a dig like "not having even taken delivery...."
The photo is confusing. It was obviously taken by someone trying to make a point, and so the amount of information left out leaves it very suspicious. I dont have to be an Arctic dealer to figure that out. Obviously the cabinet in not air-tight. Why in the worlk would you want to do that????? I'm not a big fan of mold and other crawlies that would thrive in a warm, airtight space.
Sorry to offend you Anne, but the post is relayed exactly how I intended, sarcastic! I am not speaking of the product itself which is why I'm sure you are offended being an owner of the same fine product. I am mearly questioning an individuals intentions, which I hope are on the up and up.
-
In terms of why there is steam escaping between the shell and the cabinet (if we are interpreting the picture accurately), my only guess is that it was the result of operator error by not applying a continuous layer of foam in that seam. That should be easy to fix and probably covered under warranty. It's an interesting picture, but more interesting that someone on this site would retain such a photo. Makes you wonder if it's from an Arctic competitor!?
As many of the proffessionals on this board can attest to, there is a certain feeling you get when someone is shopping you. It may be the look on their face, their expertice on a certain product, their blatant mis-use of industry lingo, etc... It seems that if you (wesj53) are infact not affiliated with Arctic Spas, maybe you should be. I mean that as a compliment in the sense that you know so much about their product from a manufacturing standpoint and warranty performance, as well as the details of the cover itself and what it actually looks like in a picture. Not having even taken delivery of the product yet makes it even more impressive. :-/
Call me naive and call Anne smart but I took your comments as a compliment pkud! No, I am not an Arctic salesman or associated with them in any way. I am an insurance agent in west suburban Chicago! I just do a lot of research when I buy a big ticket item which I plan on keeping for a long time. So I just used my head and decided for myself which product would be best for us and which was manufactured the best IMO. I may end up being proven wrong in buying the Arctic since I knew nothing about this industry or it's products before my wife began prodding me to buy a unit (yes, it was her idea, not mine). But I found these things and this industry to be quite interesting and so I learned as much as I could from industry types (like you?) who know a lot more about this stuff than !.
Regarding the pic, well Arctic's covers are brown, not whatever is sitting on top of this tub. In addition, there is NO other cabinet in the market that we saw that was as impressive as Arctic's. It is truly beautiful cabinetry that I don't think is rivaled in the industry. So I recognized it! I take delivery in a couple of weeks. I will report to all how things are working - without bias. So pkud, believe me or not. It's your call!
-
Oh, you insurance salesman are all the same. ;D ;)
Can't blame someone for being cautious...I wish you nothing but the best with your purchase.
-
It seems that if you (wesj53) are infact not affiliated with Arctic Spas, maybe you should be. I mean that as a compliment in the sense that you know so much about their product from a manufacturing standpoint and warranty performance, as well as the details of the cover itself and what it actually looks like in a picture. Not having even taken delivery of the product yet makes it even more impressive. :-/
For Pete's sake, at least be honest. You dont meant that as a complement, or you would not put in a dig like "not having even taken delivery...."
The photo is confusing. It was obviously taken by someone trying to make a point, and so the amount of information left out leaves it very suspicious. I dont have to be an Arctic dealer to figure that out. Obviously the cabinet in not air-tight. Why in the worlk would you want to do that????? I'm not a big fan of mold and other crawlies that would thrive in a warm, airtight space.
Sorry to offend you Anne, but the post is relayed exactly how I intended, sarcastic! I am not speaking of the product itself which is why I'm sure you are offended being an owner of the same fine product. I am mearly questioning an individuals intentions, which I hope are on the up and up.
OK, sorry to jump down your throat if it was a compliment on the up and up......I guess I dont really get the idea of a sarcastic compliment, but hey, it is hard to relay subtleties in print. If you guys arent upset with each other, then I'm not either.
-
Sorry I wasn t around to fully explain the pic. This is one pic from a series of pics. It is infact an Arctic Purchased by a dealer in Sask. Canada Dead of winter he hooked the tub up in his compound and let it sit in a real world environment. Before the tub was filled and running a couple of smoke cannisters were placed in the cabinet to see if any heat (ie smoke) would be escaping Thus smoke between shell and lip and cabinet.
I will also post a pic regarding the cover with snow on it and showing how much heat is lost through the middle of the cover.
Brand new an Arctic is probly a really good tub but longevity with this design is still to be determined
-
Sorry I wasn t around to fully explain the pic. This is one pic from a series of pics. It is infact an Arctic Purchased by a dealer in Sask. Canada Dead of winter he hooked the tub up in his compound and let it sit in a real world environment. Before the tub was filled and running a couple of smoke cannisters were placed in the cabinet to see if any heat (ie smoke) would be escaping Thus smoke between shell and lip and cabinet.
I will also post a pic regarding the cover with snow on it and showing how much heat is lost through the middle of the cover.
Brand new an Arctic is probly a really good tub but longevity with this design is still to be determined
Ok Pathfinder. First of all, I hope you recognize that I nor Arctic claim an "air tight" chamber as you suggested. Secondly, we don't know how old this unit is. Thirdly, we cannot validate this experiment. Fourth, we don't know why the "iceberg" is siting on top of the unit. With all that being said, IF all you say is true, then I would suggest that there was probably some operator error in not COMPLETELY foaming the rim area between the shell and the cabinet. But to suggest that escaping smoke (which naturally will rise) is comparable to cold air entering the chamber thru a very small crevise is hardly valid since IMO the hotter air inside the chamber with more pressure would counteract any cold air trying to enter. In reading spa sites over the last month, I find it interesting that one of the brands that is probably sniped at the most is Arctic, even though most agree it is one of the best made products in the industry. Could it be that the FF industry types are afraid of the different mfg process and features that Arctic offers to consumers, or might it be that Arctic is now one of the top ten mfgs in the world (according to my dealer)?
-
Can someone tell me the definition of sealed dead air space??? I have to be missing something.
Now your telling me that the pressure of the hot air would prevent the cold coming in that small air gap
this would be considered by most people as heat loss
I never said anything about cold air entering
Top 10 in terms of What?
The point of the experiment is longevity of the design it is an older tub. So unless your only concern is the first couple years of efficiency then thats great.
There is no "iceberg"
And people say Hot Springs Kool aid is Strong ;)
-
I think we came into this arena about the same time and also came to the same conclusion about Arctic. It's obviously as well built as many and better built than most. It's hands down better built than any I saw that includes Hot Springs, CalSpa, Marquis, Sundance, LaSpa and, while a close 2nd, Coleman, which we bought due to better "fit." The differences are black and white I think. The Arctic top's better, the shell's better and the bottom's better. The framing may be average but last, yet not least, their method of TP is (arguably) better. You're fighting a lot of defensive salesman treating this like arguments about who's wife's better. (Mine obviously.) You need a smiley face that infers "nod and smile" or "whatever" for those types that manuever the facts to suit their spa (or wife.)
Joel
-
I think we came into this arena about the same time and also came to the same conclusion about Arctic. It's obviously as well built as many and better built than most. It's hands down better built than any I saw that includes Hot Springs, CalSpa, Marquis, Sundance, LaSpa and, while a close 2nd, Coleman, which we bought due to better "fit." The differences are black and white I think. The Arctic top's better, the shell's better and the bottom's better. The framing may be average but last, yet not least, their method of TP is (arguably) better. You're fighting a lot of defensive salesman treating this like arguments about who's wife's better. (Mine obviously.) You need a smiley face that infers "nod and smile" or "whatever" for those types that manuever the facts to suit their spa (or wife.)
Joel
My wife is "hands down", "obviously" in plane "black and white", "BETTER"! ;D Thanks for your "opinions" Joel T. ;)
-
Can someone tell me the definition of sealed dead air space??? I have to be missing something.
Now your telling me that the pressure of the hot air would prevent the cold coming in that small air gap
this would be considered by most people as heat loss
I never said anything about cold air entering
Top 10 in terms of What?
The point of the experiment is longevity of the design it is an older tub. So unless your only concern is the first couple years of efficiency then thats great.
There is no "iceberg"
And people say Hot Springs Kool Aid is strong :)
I didn't know this friendly little "debate" was going to turn into a linguistics lesson, but let my try to respond to your question about defining "sealed dead air space". Yes, Arctic uses that language in their product brochure, but their sentence continues by adding, "similar to that found in most houses in the northern parts of the US and Canada". Now I think we can all use common sense to understand that sealed dead air space does not mean "air tight" (a vacuum). As Anne correctly mentioned who would want that? Any house or spa chamber has to "breathe" to some degree (ask any HVAC contractor).
Now that we've established that meaning, let me move on to how hot air could inhibit cold air from coming into the chamber. I am not a physics expert, but I seem to remember from high school that hot air molecules are more dense than cold (maybe Altazi, the physics guru could help here). In addition, hot air wants to rise (to the seal area in which we are discussing) and will apply pressure to whatever small crevise that may exist between the inside and out. Finally, I believe that the pressure of the inside air is greater than the outside which would also deter cold air from entering. If someone wants to verify or dispute those hypotheses, I am all ears. But all of this is moot since your argument or implication is based upon the premise that (some or all?) Arctic spas leak between the shell and the cabinet (which has not even been proven with your picture).
Next, top 10 in terms of sales dollars last year. (I mentioned this per my dealer. I don't know if industry stats are published anywhere but I'd sure like to see them. They must be available since Hot Springs claims to be the largest and nobody seems to question that.)
No, I am concerned with longevity. That is why I purchased an Arctic. However, if it makes you feel better as a CalSpa dealer, I really liked their new Avalon series and model #A857B which I may have purchased if not for both their dealers in metro Chicago failing to actively sell them here.
It sure looks like an iceberg to me!
Fortunately we Arctic owners don't : drink Kool Aid (we like higher quality beverages) and we also try and express facts about our brand without demeaning the competition. I guess the truth hurts!
-
Can someone tell me the definition of sealed dead air space??? I have to be missing something.
Now your telling me that the pressure of the hot air would prevent the cold coming in that small air gap
this would be considered by most people as heat loss
I never said anything about cold air entering
Top 10 in terms of What?
The point of the experiment is longevity of the design it is an older tub. So unless your only concern is the first couple years of efficiency then thats great.
There is no "iceberg"
And people say Hot Springs Kool Aid is strong :)
It sure looks like an iceberg to me!
Fortunately we Arctic owners don't : drink Kool Aid (we like higher quality beverages) and we also try and express facts about our brand without demeaning the competition. I guess the truth hurts!
Iceberg? Is than not just a whitish shell color on a spa without a cover on it. That is one of the reasons I was confused when wesj53 was talking about that not being an Arctic cover in the pic.
PS.
Fact: Arctic has a thick cover. Better than others? Speculation!
Fact: Arctic spas uses tp design. Better than others? High speculation!
Fact; Arctic spas has etc...etc...etc...etc...etc...etc...etc... Speculation!
Insert any brand spa you like, same conclusion to the public.
Everyone loves KOOl-AID!
-
First of all pkud, I stated that I didn't know what was on top of the spa, but rather identified the cabinet as an Arctic. (I still don't know what is covering the spa.)
Secondly, you seem to imply that you believe the spa industry exists in a world of total subjectivity, no brand is any better than any brand. Then could I extrapolate out that HS is the number one seller for just it's reputation, or that dealers just mention they are #1 and consumers are just sheep and follow the crowd?
-
First of all pkud, I stated that I didn't know what was on top of the spa, but rather identified the cabinet as an Arctic. (I still don't know what is covering the spa.)
Secondly, you seem to imply that you believe the spa industry exists in a world of total subjectivity, no brand is any better than any brand. Then could I extrapolate out that HS is the number one seller for just it's reputation, or that dealers just mention they are #1 and consumers are just sheep and follow the crowd?
To answer your question wesj53, yes the industry is very subjective. I'm not naive... The reason why HS is #1 is due to the size of their dealer network, their corporate advertising campaigns, length of time in the industry, compentant dealers(Most of them), and lastly making a fine product with a great warranty. The best?? Subjective. I've never touted superiority of my product, but defended in cases where I felt necessary.
-
Gee pkud, you sound like a nice, honest guy. I am too! Why then are we selling hot tubs and insurance?
Where are you located in FL. My son has been extended a "tentative" job offer by the FAA as a flight controller at Miami International, hopefully to start sometime in Feb after his 2 month training at OK city. Maybe I could generate a sale for you?!
-
Gee pkud, you sound like a nice, honest guy. I am too! Why then are we selling hot tubs and insurance?
Where are you located in FL. My son has been extended a "tentative" job offer by the FAA as a flight controller at Miami International, hopefully to start sometime in Feb after his 2 month training at OK city. Maybe I could generate a sale for you?!
Live in Palm Beach, but store is in Ft Laud. Miami is still in my wheelhouse. :) He'll need a spa with that job.
-
Gee pkud, you sound like a nice, honest guy. I am too! Why then are we selling hot tubs and insurance?
Where are you located in FL. My son has been extended a "tentative" job offer by the FAA as a flight controller at Miami International, hopefully to start sometime in Feb after his 2 month training at OK city. Maybe I could generate a sale for you?!
Live in Palm Beach, but store is in Ft Laud. Miami is still in my wheelhouse. :) He'll need a spa with that job.
That's what I just told him but he's only 23 and will be living in the south Florida "jungle". He asks, why do I need a HOT tub in that environment? I said, hey, in the middle of Jan it MIGHT get down into the 50's at night - brrrrr ... ! A far cry from what he's used to here in the Chicago area and our lake home in northern WI
-
Gee pkud, you sound like a nice, honest guy. I am too! Why then are we selling hot tubs and insurance?
Where are you located in FL. My son has been extended a "tentative" job offer by the FAA as a flight controller at Miami International, hopefully to start sometime in Feb after his 2 month training at OK city. Maybe I could generate a sale for you?!
Live in Palm Beach, but store is in Ft Laud. Miami is still in my wheelhouse. :) He'll need a spa with that job.
He asks, why do I need a HOT tub in that environment?
Because he is 23 and living in S FL. 8-)
-
I am not a physics expert, but I seem to remember from high school that hot air molecules are more dense than cold (maybe Altazi, the physics guru could help here). In addition, hot air wants to rise (to the seal area in which we are discussing) and will apply pressure to whatever small crevise that may exist between the inside and out. Finally, I believe that the pressure of the inside air is greater than the outside which would also deter cold air from entering. If someone wants to verify or dispute those hypotheses, I am all ears.
I'm dont really want to get involved in the meaning of that photo in terms of whether the cabinet is faulty or not, but I cant let the physics go uncorrected......I'm not physics guru, but I can tell you that hot air molecules are LESS dense (thus hot air rises). Since warm air molecules are trying to expand, and the crack is on the top, that pressure and temperature gradient would mean that it is more likely that warm air would leak out of a crevice than that cold air would leak in. Does that matter here? Dunno.
If my cabinet is leaking lot 'o hot air, my electric bill sure has not demonstrated that.
-
Had a chance to skim through this. Fascinating thread, people treating each other with respect despite misunderstandings, mostly on topic, good discussion. Love it!
PKUD, one of the best critiques of the ARC study I've seen, though there was no need to shout. :) I hope to rebut this tomorrow if I have time.
Tom
Arctic Spas
-
Fortunately we Arctic owners don't : drink Kool Aid (we like higher quality beverages) and we also try and express facts about our brand without demeaning the competition. I guess the truth hurts!
LOL, arctic owners are no different than owners of Marquis, Vita, Hot Springs, Beachcomber, etc. Some understand how their spas work very well and have great points to make, some just pass on what they've been told, some are defensive of their product and will defend it to the death no matter what, some are open minded, some are not, some just like the look and feel of it, some wet tested, some didn't, some bought it because their friend had good luck with theirs, some drink the kool-aid, some help make the kool-aid, some have no idea there is any koo-aid, etc. As far as the truth hurting, it depends on who's truth you're referring to.
-
Was there a point somewhere in there Mr. Norge Repairman?
-
Fortunately we Arctic owners don't : drink Kool Aid (we like higher quality beverages) and we also try and express facts about our brand without demeaning the competition. I guess the truth hurts!
LOL, arctic owners are no different than owners of Marquis, Vita, Hot Springs, Beachcomber, etc. Some understand how their spas work very well and have great points to make, some just pass on what they've been told, some are defensive of their product and will defend it to the death no matter what, some are open minded, some are not, some just like the look and feel of it, some wet tested, some didn't, some bought it because their friend had good luck with theirs, some drink the kool-aid, some help make the kool-aid, some have no idea there is any koo-aid, etc. As far as the truth hurting, it depends on who's truth you're referring to.
LOL! That is a PERFECT summary of this nutty place!
-
Was there a point somewhere in there Mr. Norge Repairman?
Sure there was a point. I found it comical that you made the statement "Fortunately we Arctic owners don't : drink Kool Aid (we like higher quality beverages) and we also try and express facts about our brand without demeaning the competition. I guess the truth hurts!" as if they are somehow different in some way from other spa owners.
-
[
Sure there was a point. I found it comical that you made the statement "Fortunately we Arctic owners don't : drink Kool Aid (we like higher quality beverages) and we also try and express facts about our brand without demeaning the competition. I guess the truth hurts!" as if they are somehow different in some way from other spa owners. [/quote]
Well, I'm glad you found some comedy in my comment Spatech, but I NEVER said or even implied that Arctic owners are different from other spa owners or better in any way. If you thought there was an edge to my comments, then you misunderstood. I was just replying to Pathfinder about his flippant "kool aid" reference. Sometimes a little humor is what is needed when you get an ignorant comment like that. Let me just add this (and I don't mean to offend ANY other spa owners), but based on the comments here as well as another spa site, I find (and I am biased I admit) that Arctic owners really do a lot of research before buying a unit. They seem to be well educated on the subject and buy based not only on comfort but also the engineering of the units and the various differences that exist between mfgs. I recognize this observation is made from a very small sample, so it isn't scientific; rather just my thoughts. Have a nice day and TGIF!
-
Well, I'm glad you found some comedy in my comment Spatech, but I NEVER said or even implied that Arctic owners are different from other spa owners or better in any way.
Then, 2 sentences later in the same paragraph you state!
I find (and I am biased I admit) that Arctic owners really do a lot of research before buying a unit. They seem to be well educated on the subject and buy based not only on comfort but also the engineering of the units and the various differences that exist between mfgs.
So if you're not saying Arctic owners are differnt are you therefore saying that spa owners of other brands equally "do a lot of research before buying a unit" and "seem to be well educated on the subject and buy based not only on comfort but also the engineering"?
Either you ARE implying they are somehow a different breed of people or you're just complimenting all spa brand shoppers for their thoroughness in shopping for a spa.
-
My only point Spatech was that my observation of Arctic posters seem to indicate they do a lot of research before buying a unit. This was to answer Pathfinder's implication that Arctic owners simply believe whatever Arctic dealers tell them (ie kool aid drinkers). As an Arctic owner, I admit I read posts on Arctic more carefully so no, I am not saying that spa owners of other makes do not make technical judgement of products as well. I would hope EVERY prospective buyer not only looks at the outside of the product, but also looks "underneath the hood". If a buyer ONLY buys based on what is comfortable but buys a junk product, then he is not educating himself (or herself) properly and therefore would make a poor choice. That's all I'm saying. Hope that clears the air.
-
Just a little clarification on the Arctic Spa Alberta Research Council Thermal Study:
Thanks to pkud for an excellent critique. His comments are accurate and many of his conclusions are correct. But not all... ;)
First off, readers need to be aware that this study was NOT conducted by Arctic Spas. It was done by an independent test laboratory, the Alberta Research Council. All spas used in the study--including ours--were purchased at random from retail locations by the ARC, so they got "off the floor" models. Contrary to what some commentators have suggested, we did not "load" our spas with a special cover or any other changes.
(1a) This study was done on each spa independently. In other words not at the same time, hence each product was being tested in fluctuating conditions including differences in ambient temperature and spa water temp of each model tested.
That is neither here nor there; serial testing in a single controlled environment is a common method, and it is probable that few commercial test labs are large enough to handle eight spas at a time.
Although its freezer room is a controlled environment, the ARC notes on page 1 that "There are several differences in the spas that complicate the evaluation. Some of these differences are variation in the spa volume; different heating and filtering systems and their modes of operation; and small variations in the air temperatures during the tests." In his comments, pkud has picked up on each of these differences.
(1b) The power consumption charts which are available to the public in fact show that the HotSpring spa outperformed any of the other spas tested based upon kilowatt usage.
Well, not quite. The Vanguard did very well at room temperature (20 degrees C, 68F). In the freezer at -13C (10F), the picture changes slightly, with both large Kodiaks using almost the same kWh as the smaller Vanguard. See #2 below.
(2) The figures that Arctic Spas the Alberta Research Council used to determine the outcome of the study are completely altered by the fact that the data used was created by dividing the total power consumed by the volume of water in each spa.
Yes, pkud is absolutely right on this one. It obviously takes more energy to heat a larger volume of water than a small one, so you can't just look at the kWh. In order to equitably compare a large and a small spa, you need to look at how much energy it takes to heat a standard volume of water. The ARC took the specific power, Watts per Cubic Meter, which is the right hand column in the charts on page 7 of the study. In this column, in the freezer test, the two Arctic Kodiaks rank 1st and 2nd, with the Vanguard coming 3rd.
The need for a specific measure is recognized by the California Energy Commission which based their proposed Title 20 on the formula E=5(V^2/3) where V is the volume in US gallons and E is the acceptable energy usage (in kWh??). If pkud is involved in the industry, he will know this, and is just trying to dodge the bullet. ::)
(3) In this study The HotSpring Spa is labled with an asterisk in all the power consumption charts. This shows that the spa does not have Auto-filtering, or that the filtering must be started manually. Infact, HotSpring spas have a 24hr circ pump for filtering with no need to manually start any filtering cycles. All the other spas tested were done so while they were filtering on low speed, while the HS model was tested while pumps were on high speed.
I can find no indication of the pump speed setting in the study, so must assume from pkud's comment that the Vanguard does not have a low speed setting. I suspect that this means that the Vanguard was manually turned on to match the other units, which would indeed make the HotSprings look even better were this not the case.
The HotSpring Vanguard <snip> consumed 40% less energy then the comparable sized Arctic Coyote model.
True; in one test it was 44% less. The Coyote is our entry-level line and is not constructed to the high specs of the Arctic line.
Hope thread readers are finding this interesting and that we are not boring you to death.
Tom
Arctic Spas
-
I appreciate both pkud's and Tom's excellent contributions on this matter. The study seems to indicate that the energy use between these 2 brands are fairly close in some cases. For those who are not statistically inclined and are still unsure as to the differences of FF vs a non FF system (like Arctic Heatlock), let me also humbly suggest you consider the factors of freeze-ups of equipment during power outages and cost of repair of leaks to each style of tub.
-
1) My only point Spatech was that my observation of Arctic posters seem to indicate they do a lot of research before buying a unit.
2) This was to answer Pathfinder's implication that Arctic owners simply believe whatever Arctic dealers tell them (ie kool aid drinkers).
3) That's all I'm saying. Hope that clears the air.
1) I certainly don't disagree with your opinion about Arctic buyers and would add that the people who take the time to come to this site to post obviously are the types that take the time to research and therefore I'd mirror those comments about a few other brands as well (probably not seamonkey spa owners though).
2) The reality is each brand has their own flavor of kool-aid and some customers do swallow the hook pretty hard but it's not a brand specific thing. Some brands may seem to have it more because they may have a more unique story. Whether it's removeable jet packs, microclean filters, Tri-zone, No-bypass filtration, Direct-flo or whatever, they're trying to set themselves apart as opposed to so many of the cookie cutter products out there that will literally tell you "we use the same parts as everyone else" (which is also fine but there is less kool-aid consumed when that's your story).
3). Got it. Over and out.
-
I appreciate the rebuttle Graybeard. Unfortunately the figures are skewed regardless of how you break it down. A spa's energy consumption is just that, its energy consumption, regardless of the volume of water being heated. No need to divide anything. Until the spas are tested in the same environment at the same time and most importantly, they are operated according to manufacturers specifications, the study will remain inaccurate. ;)
Let me preface this by stating that this is my opinion and purely speculation:
The Alberta Research Council did not just decide "well, we should do some energy tests on hot tubs". There is a reason why 3, count them 3 Arctic spas were tested compared to 1 of other manufacturers. This was not just some research document that Arctic spas "accidentally" got there hands on. More of a business relationship than anything else.(So no need to cross out the Arctic Spas in my dissertation of the study) Smart, I'll give them that, but to the educated, still inaccurate. ;)
-
[1) I certainly don't disagree with your opinion about Arctic buyers and would add that the people who take the time to come to this site to post obviously are the types that take the time to research and therefore I'd mirror those comments about a few other brands as well (probably not seamonkey spa owners though).
2) The reality is each brand has their own flavor of kool-aid and some customers do swallow the hook pretty hard but it's not a brand specific thing. Some brands may seem to have it more because they may have a more unique story. Whether it's removeable jet packs, microclean filters, Tri-zone, No-bypass filtration, Direct-flo or whatever, they're trying to set themselves apart as opposed to so many of the cookie cutter products out there that will literally tell you "we use the same parts as everyone else" (which is also fine but there is less kool-aid consumed when that's your story).
3). Got it. Over and out.[/quote]
The only other point I would make Spatech is that I find a lot of industry types on these sites don't give credit to their competitors for coming up with new ideas and technology. HS should be given credit for their Moto Massage to Artesian for their Direct Flow, to Arctic and others for their innovations. I would much rather sell a product like a spa where there are actual understandable differences between makes and models. Try selling a product like insurance (like I do) and see how difficult that it is to point out differences in policies. So, I think the phrase "kool aid" is used too often here. Advancements in all industries is what has made this country the best on earch. GOD BLESS THE USA!!!
-
Should I have used Tang instead?? I never put down Arctic in any of my posts. Wes I'm sorry you feel backed into a corner for you seem to have to justify to everyone about your purchase of an Arctic. Be happy enjoy your tub and RELAX thats what they are for bc you seem to be wound pretty tight or is your tub not doing the job it was supposed to.
I would have more to say but Spatech stole my words.
I think you should get out of the insurance game and see if Tom can hook you up with a rep job so you can preach your gospel to the masses.
PS its a forum dont be so serious and people have an opinion,
when you take everything too serious you end up like everyones favorite Industry Crusader.
oh yeah HEY KOOL_AID!!!!! ;D
-
NO, MAYBE CAMOMILE TEA INSTEAD TO RELAX! YOU APPEAR TO ME UPSET WITH ME AND YOU SHOULD NOT BE.
[ I never put down Arctic in any of my posts.]
I KNOW YOU DIDN'T AND I DIDN'T STATE THAT YOU DID.
[Wes I'm sorry you feel backed into a corner for you seem to have to justify to everyone about your purchase of an Arctic.]
I DON'T FEEL BACKED INTO A CORNER! MY POSTS RESPOND TO THE TOPIC AT HAND. I DON'T THINK I GO OUT OF MY WAY TO JUSTIFY MY PURCHASE, BUT I MAY OFFER SOLID REASONS WHY I DID. THAT'S JUST THE MARK OF AN EDUCATED CONSUMER. WHAT'S WRONG WITH THAT. IMO, IT BEATS THE PERSON WHO GOES OUT AND BUYS THE FIRST UNIT HE SEES EVEN WITHOUT WET TESTING.
[ Be happy enjoy your tub and RELAX thats what they are for bc you seem to be wound pretty tight or is your tub not doing the job it was supposed to. ]
THAT'S THE PROBLEM WITH THE WRITTEN WORD; MANY TIMES THE TONE OF THE MESSAGE IS INCORRECTLY UNDERSTOOD. ACTUALLY, I WRITE MOST OF MY MESSAGES WITH A SMILE ON MY FACE! ACTUALLY, I HAVEN'T TAKEN POSSESSION OF THE TUB YET; DELIVERY IN 2 WEEKS. I'LL LET YOU THEN HOW THINGS ARE GOING, DEAL?
I would have more to say but Spatech stole my words.
[I think you should get out of the insurance game and see if Tom can hook you up with a rep job so you can preach your gospel to the masses.]
SEE? THERE YOU GO AGAIN. COMPARING A BELIEF IN A PRODUCT AND WANTING TO PASS ON WHAT ONE HAS LEARNED TO OTHERS VS PREACHING THE GOSPEL. THAT'S CUTE, BUT NOT ACCURATE. PLUS, I'VE HAD TO START OVER IN CAREERS A FEW TIMES IN MY LIFE. THE INSURANCE BIZ IS GOING JUST FINE SO ALTHOUGH THE SPA INDUSTRY IS A LOT MORE INTERESTING THAN INSURANCE, I DON'T THINK I COULD AFFORD THE PAY CUT THAT I WOULD PROBABLY HAVE TO TAKE!
[PS its a forum dont be so serious and people have an opinion,
when you take everything too serious you end up like everyones favorite Industry Crusader.]
I'M NOT ALWAYS SERIOUS. CHECK OUT TERM'S THREAD AND YOU'LL FIND SOME LIGHT HEARTED BANTER! I DON'T WHAT OR WHO INDUSTRY CRUSADER.
oh yeah HEY KOOL_AID!!!!!
DRINK UP! ;D/quote]
-
Far from upset I've been laughing most of the time reading this topic bc you wouldnt let the Kool-Aid remark slide and this subject has gotten to be about Arctic instead of Beachcomber and Arctic
I hope all goes smoothly when you get your tub Friends of my parents enjoy their Arctic and they live outside of Chitown as well
And I only drink and offer Sugar Free KOOL-AID by Calspa still just as good but better for you ;)
-
Yeah, it's funny how these threads can get hijacked, and sometimes not by design. Good, I'm glad you're not upset. Stupid to develop hard feelings over hot tubs!
Still corks me that neither dealer here in town actively markets Cals. I wonder why the mfg isn't going out and getting new distribution. Big market here!
Take care and I'm glad to see your parents pick out such intelligent friends!!!
-
The Alberta Research Council did not just decide "well, we should do some energy tests on hot tubs". There is a reason why 3, count them 3 Arctic spas were tested compared to 1 of other manufacturers.
No need to be coy, pkud. It's right there on page 2 of the study: "ARC performed this non-standardized test on behalf of Arctic Spas of Thorsby, Alberta. A list of comparative spas for evaluation was provided by Arctic Spas." (Will everybody kindly read the entire study, not just the tables on page 7!!!)
IMO Arctic has been remarkably open in providing this study for public scrutiny. There seems to be little other comparative data out there.
The study certainly has been a popular topic for kicking around (and at) amongst our competitors, and has been the source of much interesting debate both on the forums and privately.
Tom
Arctic Spas
-
Tom.....you know how I feel about that study. I said it a year or two ago and I\I will say it now, scewed results to favor the company that payed for it.
According to the study if you want the most energy effiecient spa out there you should buy the HS and get the 1oo dollar cover upgrade. Thats all I got from the study, and I don't care for the HS line.
And wes there are plenty of people who do more and more thorough research than you, and don't come to the same conclusion that you did. Does that make them stupid or you somehow smarter? I have been researching this for 10-15 years and i didn't come up with the same conclusion as you. I do however think Arctic is a fine product, just not better than several other brands out there. You seem to think they are the best ever, and the fact that you chose one may be narrowing your blinders a bit.
-
First time I ever beat a dead horse.......that felt kinda good.
-
Let me repeat Tman122, I'm not criticizing other spa owners or their intelligence. My only point was that it seems that reading posts from Arctic owners, they seem to have done a lot of research before buying their units. That says nothing about other spa owers who may have done the same. I respect all spa owners who look past the reputations or sales volumes of certain brands and/or just buying on looks. But we all - regardless of the brand we bought - think it was the best product for our situation. I just personally think that Arctic has some of the best engineering features of the spas I looked at. I hope I will not be disappointed. And no, I don't have blinders on as I recognize that there is no perfect tub produced including the Tundra. Heck, there are lemon BMW's out there; so may be the case in the spa industry as well. And I'm glad you were able to beat this dead horse as well!
-
Tom.....you know how I feel about that study. I said it a year or two ago and I\I will say it now, scewed results to favor the company that payed for it.
I sure do know how you feel, Roger. There have been several good critiques of the study, though most people seem to focus on the charts on page 7 and overlook the rest. The discussions have by-and-large been focused and professional and I have enjoyed them.
Skewed to favor the company that commissioned the study? Not really necessary; we wouldn't have paid if we hadn't been confident of the outcome. Still, "He who pays the piper calls the tune," which accounts for page 8.
What I think is impressive is that Arctic has published those figures for all to see and debate. Or beat after it's dead, whatever.
Anybody else who wants to pay for eight spas and a research facility is welcome to do their own study. :)
Tom
Peeking over my blinders as it were since the company pays my salary...
-
Tom.....you know how I feel about that study. I said it a year or two ago and I\I will say it now, scewed results to favor the company that payed for it.
Skewed to favor the company that commissioned the study? Not really necessary; we wouldn't have paid if we hadn't been confident of the outcome. Still, "He who pays the piper calls the tune," which accounts for page 8.
What I think is impressive is that Arctic has published those figures for all to see and debate. Or beat after it's dead, whatever.
No, Artic would stil pay for the study. They just wouldn't publish the results. In paid, private studies, the results belong to the customer and they can choose to reveil the results or not. Many big companies do studies like this all the time, and when the results don't favor them, the reports never see the light of day. The researchers are bound by non-disclosure agreements as well.
It's a nice spin to say they were confident in the outcome, and to imply they would publically publish the reports regardless of the results is misleading or naive.
-
I believe Tom's point here drewstar is that Arctic is the only company which to our knowledge has paid for a study and released the results. Now, it could be possible that other mfgs may have conducted a similar study but decided NOT to release the study results (as you state they have a right to do) because the findings weren't favorable towards their brand. This argument works both ways.
All consumers like me know is that in a industry in the millions of dollars, very few "independent" studies have been performed to try and determine whether there are in fact advantages or disadvantages with different methods of production. Many of us wonder why - especially when there are powerhouses like HS and Jacuzzi/Sundance out there who could really dominate the market with their vast distribution channels - the larger companies don't provide some data that shows their units to be engineered superior to their competitors.
-
I agree fully wesj53. In fact, I find it suspicious that these huge corporations have not already done so. I think it's great that Artic did it. But do I find it the end all report? Nope. To me, I see it as factual as any other comerical or ad.
And I am not bashing Artic. From what I hear, they have many satsified customers.
-
I think theres a "study" more like a test I think though, that was conducted by HS where there Tub was miles ahead of the others they tested. This test was also picked apart. They used a 110 volt version of one of there tubs and it was conducted in a closed environment....blah, blah, blah. My point is, and no one seems to see it, this test had been used to decieve people into thinking they have the most energy effiecient tub made today, whatever, it's the way I would market it also if I worked for Arctic. But if you truely look at the results and are not clouded by "what you think is the best engineering" turns out they are a fine tub........just not better than several other brands. And to think anyone elses research that didn't come to the same conclusion is somehow flawed is ludicrist.
I am sure there's someone out there smarter than all of us that has researched more than any of us and come to a different conclusion. Got a guy working in this office that somehow thinks his research is the only valid research and he chose a brand I won't even mention. He's as adament about his research as those I have seen here over and over during the years. I think he's an idiot.
-
I believe Tom's point here drewstar is that Arctic is the only company which to our knowledge has paid for a study and released the results. Now, it could be possible that other mfgs may have conducted a similar study but decided NOT to release the study results (as you state they have a right to do) because the findings weren't favorable towards their brand. This argument works both ways.
All consumers like me know is that in a industry in the millions of dollars, very few "independent" studies have been performed to try and determine whether there are in fact advantages or disadvantages with different methods of production. Many of us wonder why - especially when there are powerhouses like HS and Jacuzzi/Sundance out there who could really dominate the market with their vast distribution channels - the larger companies don't provide some data that shows their units to be engineered superior to their competitors.
Could it be that they just don't care, because when it comes right dow to it 20 or 21 dollars a month the consumer just don't care.
-
I agree, most consumers probably don't care about heavy researching of many of the products they buy whether it's a hot tub, car, or washing machine. But for those of us that do like to perform our due diligence, it makes it very difficult when there is very little truely INDEPENDENT testing of product, including spas. I guess that's all I'm saying guys. In a perfect world, each mfg donates one or two of their models to a lab for testing that is paid for equally by all mfgs participating. Then a battery of tests is performed on a variety of issues; ie energy use, insulation values, strength of jets, etc. For those of us more curious than the majority, such a study would be quite interesting and helpful.
-
I In a perfect world, each mfg donates one or two of their models to a lab for testing that is paid for equally by all mfgs participating. Then a battery of tests is performed on a variety of issues; ie energy use, insulation values, strength of jets, etc. For those of us more curious than the majority, such a study would be quite interesting and helpful.
OK....it's going to be a pain but I will start cleaning my garage, start sending the checks to.....................and the spas to................and I will get to work.
-
Let me repeat Tman122, I'm not criticizing other spa owners or their intelligence. !
Oh and wes....you wern't repeating, you never said you weren't criticizing. You gave that impression though. Now you have said it, so you don't need to repeat it.