Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: mcrofutt on September 06, 2006, 08:32:10 pm
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My tub project is nearing completion. The electrician ( a friend of a friend, a pro) came in with a quote today. Roughly, 1100, about 2/3 of which is for supplies. I know this is at the upper end, but here in southwestern Connecticut that doesn't suprise me. HOWEVER..he feels I'm at the limit of my current service. It's 100 amp with hot water heater, stove, AC, plus all the usual stuff. He feels we should upgrade to 200 amp. Total tab roughly 2500. I'm speechless and confused. Some thoughts from the think tank here might help. Thanx
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southeastern wisconsin here. our bill was $600, we're at the upper limit on a 100amp service as well. we promised to "be good" and not run TOO much stuff at once to keep from popping circuits. so far, so good. I still want to upgrade to 200 amp service, but THAT will run roughly $1k more..... DOH! >:(
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Some people are running their tubs on 100 amp service but I upgraded my service to 200 Amps.
I wanted the added security (and it might have been possible that the township might have rejected plan - I don't know) of being able to have whatever might be running without any problems.
The NEC code has limitations on how much a circuit, any circuit, can handle and that's 80% of stated capacity. So 100 Amps should only handle 80 Amps max, it certainly can handle more but as a breaker or circuit handles more current the breaker can get warm or hot - heat damages the breaker over a long time.
$1100 for the job is a great price, BTW.
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I am currently in the process of having my 125 amp service upgraded to 200 amp. I bought all of the materials: $100 for the breaker box and 6 breaker, and another $40.00 for the service entry wire. I purposely bought a new box that used the same breakers as my old to save some money. The electrician who is doing the job does alot of electrical work for me at work so he is pulling the permit (required in my county) and swapping the boxes out for $200.00. This is extremely cheap, and the reason he is doing it is we spend 10's of thousands annually with his company at work, but I would think you could shop around and get it all done for less $$. He said that he should have it completed in about 4 hours.
Jr
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Depending on where you live a service upgrade can be costly. I got quotes from electricians starting at $1500 up to $1950 and I had a friend who I work with do it for $1,100. For me it was more than 4 hours ... almost a day and a half and I was helping him out (maybe that was the problem).
If you can get it cheaper, that's great but unfortunately I think most of us are stuck paying for an electrician and having it done correctly. They are out there to make a buck like the rest of us.
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Fair price for the 100amp service. If you do it "under the table" we got a quote of $500 for the tub hook-up but the GFCI we already had with the tub package. The heavy duty wire is apparently expensive. We had to go with the upgrade from fuses to breakers. But we stayed at the 100amp as the load survey looked reasonable. (150amp panels also exist - maybe this would be a good cost compromise?) 200amps is a lot of juice and some say overkill, but you do have the AC...
We had the option to go with the 200amp service too, but declined because of the extra thousand dollars+ on the quote. We were blown away by the hidden cost also and paid $1200 including taxes for everything above board. It was initially $1400 but they screwed something up big time and i demanded a discount. Now i sometimes wish we did go 200amp as there is a small visible surge with our interior lights on when some of the tub function activate - when the tub pumps start or the filter cycle begins to operate. A half flicker that catches the eye. Is that miniscule visual reminder of your load limit worth the extra thou or so? So maybe we should have gone that extra mile as it does add value to your home in the long run. I dunno.
We're going to take some of the load off with a Gas Hot Water Heater instead of the current electrical one and set up outsides lines for drying clothes, which we don't have now with the new house and tub. Plus it looks like the dishwasher that came with the house is 15 - 20 years old and is probably not very energy efficient. Things like that.
All these things add up - and it is a shock. One of, if not the most (purposely?) overlooked expenses and considerations regarding a new hot tub is this electrical work and compatibility w/ amperage issue. One does get a lot of placations from the dealer to get the sale and we certainly had neglect regarding many aspects of the electrical installation. And now here you are in awe and probably miffed big time. I don't blame you.
On the brightside I have no regrets about our hot tub, it's cost or the model we purchased. It simply is heavenly and worth every penny to have your own private spa at your every whim, in your own backyard. Not much compares (that is legal).
(my personal opinion? get the 200amp, get it done, watch the guys closely for errors, get an inspection, have the load room and complete your set-up. It's a bitter pill but far easier to swallow, if you even remember taking it: but when your staring at the stars in your birthday suit as you are pummelled and massaged w/ pumps and crystal clear water, it'll be the farthest thing from your mind.)
Good luck!
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Don't waste your money on the upgrade
Search my old posts, you will see that it is a waste of money
You will not be running the tub full out at the same time that you are running
an electric drier
hot water heater
heating up the oven
air conditioning
it just doesn't happen
save the money on the upgrade
Steve
Industrial Electrician
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Cola/Steve
Finally a bit of logic
There is no way you could exceed the 80% figure of a 100 amp breaker with out doing it intentionally
Terry
Industrial Maintenance Mechanic
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Don't waste your money on the upgrade
Search my old posts, you will see that it is a waste of money
You will not be running the tub full out at the same time that you are running
an electric drier
hot water heater
heating up the oven
air conditioning
it just doesn't happen
save the money on the upgrade
Steve
Industrial Electrician
This is not true all the time. I usually throw in the laundry and dishes when I'm in the tub. And in the summer some times my A/C comes on while in the tub. The wife has even thrown in a batch of cookies while in the tub. Granted this might not be all the time but it does happen.
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Don't waste your money on the upgrade
Search my old posts, you will see that it is a waste of money
You will not be running the tub full out at the same time that you are running
an electric drier
hot water heater
heating up the oven
air conditioning
it just doesn't happen
save the money on the upgrade
Steve
Industrial Electrician
Cola & In_Canada_eh,
I have to respectfully disagree with you.
Given a person's lifestyle, you can't say if it wouldn't happen. It may not but it may.
I have had my household of 4 with 2 sons have all the above on at the same time unintentionally. BTW, my house is mostly gas.
Someone showers - hot water heater kicks in and we're cooking something in the oven during the summer with the central AC on and my oldest needs his pants dried ... doesn't happen often but it does.
My new AC unit is on a 30 amp circuit, tub is on 50 amp, converted my house to a gas dryer so I don't know what an electric dryer draws - I'll use 30 amp circuit, I'll also use 30 amp for both water heater and oven for a total of 60 amps.
Adding them together - 30+50+30+60 = 170 amps in circuits. That's not including lights, blow dryers, vacuums and any other electrical or electronic devices that may be running, although it probably is minimal amp draw for these. Now I will conceede that the current draw in the actual circuit IS a lot lower than the actual circuits themselves. My tub has a draw of 28 amps, I haven't measured my AC unit and since I don't have those other big electical appliances, I can't talk intelegently about them at all.
But I think the average homeowner can possibly tax their circuits and it becomes really dangerous - $1100 is nothing to losing a home or anything else IMO. I've said it before, most engineers will over build systems to keep safety as a constant factor.
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Sounds like this one is right on the edge. It's your house, your money, your call on the upgrade. Your spa's heater, which is what draws all the power to be concerned about, comes on whenever the spa call for it. You really can't predict when this will happen. But you're the one shucking out (or not) the bucks, and you have to live with whatever happens. It's pretty easy to tell someone else how to spend their money, it's quite another to make that decision for yourself.
Personally, I'd be inclined to pay for the upgrade- you'll get extra capacity for anything you may want to do in the future- a few years from now if you have to do this for some unknown reson it will likely cost more anyway.
And if you ever sell the place, having the extra capacity will be a nice selling point.
Makes me glad I paid the builder about $70 at the time the house was built to upgrade to 200 amp service.
I
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2,500 is on the high side shop around for a better price. Stay with a licensed electrician.
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Don't waste your money on the upgrade
Search my old posts, you will see that it is a waste of money
You will not be running the tub full out at the same time that you are running
an electric drier
hot water heater
heating up the oven
air conditioning
it just doesn't happen
save the money on the upgrade
Steve
Industrial Electrician
Just like on Green Acres! Make sure to turn off #3 if you run #1 & #4 but leave #3 on if you run #4 & #6 but never, AND I REPEAT NEVER, run #6 and #1. Just climb the telephone pole and give me a call should problems arise....or just upgrade to 200 amps and be done with it.
Seriously, I was a master electrician in a previous professional life and, yes, the tub could "live" on the 100 amp service but I do not recommend it. Certainly with an all electric load (assuming this is indeed an all electric load), which may include resistance heating as well, the limits will be pushed with the addition of a tub. BTW, the previous Green Acres remarks could very well happen on Thanksgiving or Christmas...think about it...
Or, convert to gas heating, water heating, cooking, clothes drying and the 100 amp should be just fine.
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$2500 sounds high. Does that include the tub's sub panel too? I'd get a few quotes. You can get away without having it in some circumstances, but now might be the time to bite the bullett and upgrade. You might be getting a better price for having him out there for the upgrade and tub, than if you were to do it individually. I don't think you'll regret it.
I can remember when my dad bought his 2nd house in 76. It had 60 amp service he thought would be fine. Yea. sure. Things sure have changed.
I was lucky. My house was orignally built in 82 with an in law apt and has 2 panels for a total of 400 amps. ;)
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I upgraded my service a couple years ago during a basement renovation. I had a 100 amp service coming in and a full box in my garage. I added another 100 amp box downstairs and rewired everything down there to the new box, freeing up some circuits in the original box and even moving my AC 220v to the new box so I could wire my wood shop for 220 with the freed up circuit.
I had to have an electrician come in to do the 200 amp upgrade, but I told him up front I would provide the parts and he would just do labor and get the permit and arrange for the local electric company to disconnect/reconnect.
Here is what is involved in upgrading to 200 amp service: You buy a new meter box, one with multiple breakers in it. Your old meter box may not have any breakers in it, or may only have one main breaker. You buy a 100 amp breaker for your existing box. The electrician gets the permit, schedules the local utility company to disconnect. They disconnect your service from the line, at which time the electrician removes the meter box (and meter) and installs the new one. This might require a new mast if your electrical comes in from above, or new conduit if it comes in underground. It will also require new wire from the meter box to the existing line from the utility company. In my case it was 10 feet of 2" pipe for a mast, and 10 feet of larger gauge wire. There were a few fittings I had to run and get for this as well. Once the new meter box was connected to the old breaker box, and the new mast was up, and wire run from the new meter box to the top of the mast, the utility company was called again and later that day they reconnected power and installed the meter in the meter box. An inspector was scheduled by the electrician as well and had to sign off on it before the utility company could come in and hook back up.
All told, the electrician bill was $600, which included the 10 feet of wire (actually 30 feet.. 3 10foot strands), permits, a few miscellaneous small parts, and all the scheduling with inspectors and utility companies. I bought a 200 amp meter box at Home Depot for around $100, which was $40 below the electicians cost. The meter box has 10 regular breakers, a main breaker, and 1 breaker slot that is not on the main breaker. I had to buy a 200 amp main breaker and 2 100 amp breakers, which was about a hundred, and then a few miscellaneous fittings and such for the mast. I also had all the stuff for the 100 amp box I put downstairs, but most people upgrading wont be doing that.
Bottom line is for less than $1000 I upgraded, and there would be very few cases where it should cost more than that. Home depot buys those meter boxes in lots of a few hundred thousand at a time from Square D, and gets huge discounts. There is no reason to buy the box and breakers from the electrician. The only reason I even went with an electrician is because the permitting and scheduling with the utility company was more hassle than I was willing to deal with.
If the new meter box has breaker slots, you can feed the hot tub off of those slots. Most of the time the meter box is the better place to pull power from for an outdoor application since it is outside and the house box is usually inside. Trenching or running conduit to the tub location is perhaps the hardest part of it all, and should be the one thing that determines the price of hookup from the electrician.
Personally I cant see spending $2500 for the whole thing.. I would not spend more than $1500 if the service was being upgraded, and no more than $500 to have a gfci installed, unless it has to be trenched from the other side of the house..
As far as the load on the 100 amp box.. the only time you would have an issue is if you were STARTING the pumps on the tub while the AC was STARTING up and the hot water heater was running and the dryer was running and the oven was running, etc.. You run a 50 amp service to most hot tubs but thats because they will draw 40-45 amps during the couple seconds it takes to run a pump up to speed. At max speed, most hot tubs wont draw more than 15-30 amps while running. Same goes with AC and anything else with a motor.. they draw a lot when starting up but draw way less when running, even under load. It would still be possible to have all the lights on in the house, a couple TV's, the washer and dryer running, the hot water heater on, and some stuff in the oven, the AC running on a hot day, and then fire up the hot tub pumps and have the main breaker go.. just dont go reset it if you are dripping wet..
Dave
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Or if the pool is running, or your wife turns on the hair dryer, or if you have electric heat, or the microwave is going, or..... ;)
Or you have a hot tub that runs it pumps on certain predetermend schedules...not just when you are using it.
Upgrade if you can. 8-)
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For sure I'd get a couple bids, if possible, just to see if the fist one wasn't too far out of line. It might not be, depending on how busy the tradespeople are in your area.
If they have all the work that they want, they have no need to bid low.
When we built our current house, there was a large building boom, and getting a drywall crew was very difficult, and very expensive.
For that summer you did it on the drywallers terms, or you did it yourself.
Maybe that's happening in your area with electricians.
Sometimes it's hard just getting someone to show up to do a bid. Let alone a few.
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My tub project is nearing completion. The electrician ( a friend of a friend, a pro) came in with a quote today. Roughly, 1100, about 2/3 of which is for supplies. I know this is at the upper end, but here in southwestern Connecticut that doesn't suprise me. HOWEVER..he feels I'm at the limit of my current service. It's 100 amp with hot water heater, stove, AC, plus all the usual stuff. He feels we should upgrade to 200 amp. Total tab roughly 2500. I'm speechless and confused. Some thoughts from the think tank here might help. Thanx
This an issue that is not often talked about.
Many Homes still use 100 amp service.
If you choose a Hot tub with one jet pump rather than two or more chances are you will not have a problem with a 100 Amp service.
If you choose a tub with multiple pumps, excluding a circ pump you will need a 200 amp service.
Dealers should always ask this question, that is, what size electrical service do you have BEFORE selling anyone a hot tub.
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What they're supposed to do is perform a demand load calculation. Take into account many factors, and rates them. If the caluclated (not necessarily actual, which is pretty impossible to predict) load is a certain amperage, an upgrade is recommended. The factors for this calculation can be performed by a homeowner who has the rules and is willing to do some basic math.
It'll at least get you in the ballpark.
In a small home, with a light electrical load, 100 amp service will be fine. But add in central A/C, an electric water heater, an electric dryer, electric range, dishwasher, and lots of new finished square footage, and 100 amp may be too small.
Demand load calc. gives you the guidelines.
The Green Acres analagy was great- just make sure you turn off the a/c, shut off the water heater, don't use the dishwasher, whenever you use the spa, and that 60 amps. will suit you just fine.
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When we had our spa electric hooked-up....I had an electrician friend do the work. He's a "master" electrician,union trained etc. We barter with each other over the years,and do things for each other at about cost.
We paid 500 bucks,for labor and material. He installed a new sun-panel....checked existing wiring in the house,and made things right. He installed a breaker for the spa,and a few other household breakers. He ran almost 60' of number 6 wire....and ran the wire from the spa panel box.
He even came out the day of the install of the tub,and hooked it up. The people delivering the spa,wanted to hire him on the spot lol.
I'm adding a pic,so you can see what my electrician bud did. Possibly it's an option for you,and will save you a few bucks...verses replacing a 100 amp service with a 200 amp service etc.
I would guess for labor and materials etc,in my area,I could have paid 1500-2000 bucks. Helps havin friends ;)
(http://home.comcast.net/~autoplay/elec.jpg)
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Futt,
I'm in Ct with you. If you're going with a 50amp spa, go for the upgrade. In your area, you'll get the return on the investment. Did the place you're buying the spa ask you about your electrical service? and if it was adaquet? We've switch some folk to 110v Sovereigns, Prodigy models because of the service upgrade cost and issue. 110v, 20amp circuit can be installed for about $200.00. I'm sure some critics will say 110v spa won't work, but we have thousands of them in the field that are upwards of 25 years old. Good luck. Let us know how it works out for you.
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So how do I know if my house is wired for 100 amps or 200? It's only a year old; do most new houses these days get wired for 200 amps?
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pg, see autoplay's picture? the open grey cabinet has a breaker in the middle close to the top. on the handle of the breaker is the AMP. 100- 200- 400, check yours.
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Actually, I think I just answered my own question. After actually LOOKING at my main panel (doh!), I see that the main breaker says 150 amp. I'm assuming that's for the entire house, and therefore I should have no problem putting in a 240 volt/60 amp line for the tub?
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Too many people here like to offer opinions with little or no facts. I am an industrial electrician and I design and build electrical panels for CNC cutting machinery. When I size the main feed for a machine, I don't add up all of the motor rated currents (amps), I calculate the load based on the worse case senario of equipment that could be running at one time. I may have a spindle (cutting) motor that is rated 37 kW and three servo (axis) motors that are rated at 12 kW each. Even though this represents a 73 kW load, I don't need a 73 kW drive because when I am taking a heavy cut, my servo load is likely in the 5 kW total range with the spindle at about 30 kW.
How does this translate to your house?
As Vinny likes to point out, and he is right, any circuit is by code supposed to be loaded to no more that 80% continuous load. A hot tub is not a continuous load, a stove is not a continuous load. An air conditioner on a hot day is.
So here we go
Let's work backwards here
If you pay $400.00 on a bad month for electricity and your rate is 12 cents per kWh, your average load for the month is 17.5 amps at 240 VAC with a 9% line loss penalty from the service provider factored in.
Since most of us at this rate (12 cents) are likely at $200.00 or less average per month, well, you do the math.
Your 60 amp tub draws about 25 amps when heating and about 46 amps with two pumps and heat on.
Your oven draws continuous for about ten minutes when warming up and intermittent after that.
The drier is continuous at first then cycles on off as the cycles works near the end.
Hot water heater is a short cycle unless you just took a shower
By the way Vinny
Your 30 amp AC unit draws about 12 amps
Your 50 amp tub draws 40 amps (with pumps and heat)
Your 30 amp stove draws about 15 amps when warming up the oven, then it cycles probably averaging about 3 amps at that point.
Your old 100 main breaker may have been 100% rated as the mains often are.
The trip on a 100 amp breaker is around 20 minutes at 118 amps or 100 amps continuous. The wire feeding your house might get warm for this short period of time but it would take a much higher and longer continuous load to melt the minimum 75 deg celcius wire.
My 100 main breaker is designed to prevent a fire by tripping with an over current condition as specified by CSA / UL. It is not an oversized light switch
If I had a bigger house, with a large in ground pool and two Kitchens and one day my main 100 amp breaker tripped, I would be a bit more careful with what I was running at the same time. If it was tripping often with normal electrical usage, then I would consider an upgrade.
The breaker is safe as it stands.
Oh and by the way, if you have gas available, a new gas drier and hot water heater are cheaper to ipurchase and install than an electrical upgrade and they are cheaper to run and yes, you would be supporting a plumber and not a fellow electrician.
To go further, if I got talked into something that I may have not needed, I would NOT try to talk you into the same damn thing - "OH please come bend over like I did" - I think not.
Steve "I know what I am fricking talking about because I do this for a living and you don't" Colasanti
Good day
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Cola,
I know you as well as I do windsurfdog, not too well - he was (is) your equivilent and has differing opinion than you - and I guess like everything else in the hot tub world EVERYTHING is based on opinion.
It's a little scarey to me that your saying that's OK to over tax a circuit. You actually want a homeowner to put 118% load onto their circuit? - They don't have the knowledge that you do.
You say my tub draws 40 amps, I measured 26 or something like that max. But the example you gave me with just 3 appliances was already at 67 amps - yes for a short period of time. Can the circuit hold more? Sure it can but as you heat the breakers they will start to have problems. The hospital that I work in does heat scans on all their panels (probably over 100 panels in all the facility) and it's amazing what a slightly loose connection will do to a breaker.
I have talked to other electricians and they don't understand where you're coming from. I work with both Union and non-union electricians and they insist that adding a tub will put too much strain on a 100 amp circuit.
I'm not saying you're wrong, but I have talked it over with people who f***ing know what their talking about too! Maybe in your situation since you know what your doing you can run the risk... I don't think the average homeowner can.
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Just to be clear Vinny, I don't recommend that anyone loads their system to 118%. The breaker is there to protect the wires ahead of it. The bus bars in the panel will carry an even higher load. As I said, if you install the tub and your breaker does not trip under normal conditions, then why upgrade?
It is easy enough to have your electrician put his clamp on meter on the incomming circuit to check the load. The components in the electrical system are designed to handle intermittent peak loads otherwise they would be fast acting and trip instantly when you go above the rated current.
To consider spending big bucks for an upgrade because your wife might be baking cookies, well if it might be a problem, then why not turn off a jet for ten minutes during the warm up of the oven.
In our industrial environments, we encourage our customers to learn to conserve. We recently converted a facility to new T5 lighting that will save him $35000.00 per year and lessened his load enough that he did not have to upgrade his 3000 amp, 600V 3 phase service in anticipation of a new machine that is due to arrive soon.
On the other hand, we have recommended upgrade for other customers in advanced of new machines with large continuous loads when required in advance of the machines arrival.
Too many opinions here with no facts.
Bottom line
Install the damn tub
Yes tighten any existing lugs as I have stated in previous posts
turn on the AC and the oven, drier what ever else you plan on using while you are tubbing with all the jets on and heats on then do a load check.
Regarding a pool pump, consider installing a timer so that it runs at off peak times.
It will save you money and maybe an upgrade
Wake up guys
Steve
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Actually, I think I just answered my own question. After actually LOOKING at my main panel (doh!), I see that the main breaker says 150 amp. I'm assuming that's for the entire house, and therefore I should have no problem putting in a 240 volt/60 amp line for the tub?
Yes, you have 150 amp service. And I'd guess that you're likely fine hooking up that spa, unless you have an all electric setup or something. Demand load calculation would give you a ballpark of what your current demand is.
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Just to be clear Vinny, I don't recommend that anyone loads their system to 118%. The breaker is there to protect the wires ahead of it. The bus bars in the panel will carry an even higher load. As I said, if you install the tub and your breaker does not trip under normal conditions, then why upgrade?
It is easy enough to have your electrician put his clamp on meter on the incomming circuit to check the load. The components in the electrical system are designed to handle intermittent peak loads otherwise they would be fast acting and trip instantly when you go above the rated current.
To consider spending big bucks for an upgrade because your wife might be baking cookies, well if it might be a problem, then why not turn off a jet for ten minutes during the warm up of the oven.
In our industrial environments, we encourage our customers to learn to conserve. We recently converted a facility to new T5 lighting that will save him $35000.00 per year and lessened his load enough that he did not have to upgrade his 3000 amp, 600V 3 phase service in anticipation of a new machine that is due to arrive soon.
On the other hand, we have recommended upgrade for other customers in advanced of new machines with large continuous loads when required in advance of the machines arrival.
Too many opinions here with no facts.
Bottom line
Install the damn tub
Yes tighten any existing lugs as I have stated in previous posts
turn on the AC and the oven, drier what ever else you plan on using while you are tubbing with all the jets on and heats on then do a load check.
Regarding a pool pump, consider installing a timer so that it runs at off peak times.
It will save you money and maybe an upgrade
Wake up guys
Steve
Steve,
In this quoted post, you make some very valid points...and most are exactly what I was saying in my post including the ability of the tub to operate on the existing service, the possible necessity of occasionally having to "Green Acres" the system (didn't I mention Thanksgiving and Christmas?), and the possiblity of replacing gas appliances to lower electrical load. The only difference between your post and mine is our differing opinions regarding whether the upgrade should be done or not AND the attitude in which you presented your opinions. I take offense at those remarks which belittle my opinions (and those of others as well) and my electrical knowledge. I acknowledge your expertise...I also acknowledge your snotty attitude.
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mcrofutt,
I run my tub on 100 amp service with no problem. However I don't have a electric hot water heater which makes room for my hot tub. If a electrican suggested upgrade to a 200 amp service a I would heed the advise. Many have already chimed in on both sides of the topic with many good points for each direction. If you are at or near your limit with 100 amp which it sounds like your are go ahead and upgrade. Last thing you need is to be resetting breakers while trying to enjoy a nice soak. Think about this, are you going to be using less or more electric devices in the future. EG: TV'S, MP3 players, computers, nintendo, hair dryers, electric blankets, space heaters, motor on furnace, ceiling fans, freezers, garage door openers, power tools, compressors, electric mixers when cooking. All things that need to be considered. Look at it as cheap insurance and well worth it for peace of mind. In my mind well worth the investment. Also most if not all new home construction is spec in with 200 amp service. Will you have a problem with 100 amp? Nobody knows for sure but do you want to take that chance? It is your call but I would err on the safety side.
Engineer, Fireman, EMT, Best of all Husband + Father
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Actually I'm not snotty, just a plain a$$h0le :D
Steve
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Thanks everyone for the opinions and information. Most importantly thanks for the entertainment.
The first electrician came in with a final quote of 2700 for whole job, with us getting and paying for the permit.
I've got another guy coming in tomorrow for another quote. We'll see how that goes.
I don't have a problem doing a 200amp upgrade because there may be a built-in pool in the near future.
I'll let you know. Thanks again.
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Cola,
Sorry to have backed you up on this and then taken a couple of days off.
I don't want to restart this again but your right! Maybe we should leave it alone and just say you and I know a dirty little secret ;)
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Cola,
Sorry to have backed you up on this and then taken a couple of days off.
I don't want to restart this again but your right! Maybe we should leave it alone and just say you and I know a dirty little secret ;)
Sure, you get us all crazy, dump on Cola and you come back to pick up the pieces ... Just kidding!
Honestly, I think you guys could be right but you work with this stuff. My take on it is the average homeowner doesn't know enough to know when to call it enough.
I have an all gas house and had 100 Amp service. My panel was full and I had some double circuit breakers (2 little switches instead of 1 big one) in it. I was adding the tub and I have future plans to add more circuits to the panel.
Actually at the time of service upgrade I added 2 more circuits (3 if you add the required GFI at the service panel). I addded an outdoor circuit and tub but my future has 2 - 20 amp services to my bathrooms on the 2nd floor and a 20 amp service to my bedrooms for ceiling fans.
IMO and it's only my opinion this would be too much in my already crowded panel. Considering everything and the fact that the future see us selling this house once the kids don't need our help - I decided a 200 amp upgrade is the way to go. I probably could have gotten away with another panel (sub panel?) next to the main 100 amp panel but it still would have cost me something and I don't know how another person would view it.
I was looking at the future sale ability of our house amd I think in 15 years it may be a good selling point. BTW, I had vinyl siding put on my house and had the contractors remove my asbestos siding since people are so afraid of the asbestos word. I figured that whenit comes time to sell - that's one thing else to make my home more appealing.
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I was looking at the future sale ability of our house amd I think in 15 years it may be a good selling point. BTW, I had vinyl siding put on my house...
Improvements today may help your resale value for the next few years, but to rationalize investments now with resale in 15 years? Don't get me wrong, I'm always on the lookout for ways to convince my wife to go along with my plans, so I like it! ;) Problem is how do you know that in 15 years your vinyl won't be brittle/faded or out of fashion? You are old enough to remember Harvest Gold and Avocado appliances.::) As far as your electric panel, IMO it is hard to predict what kind of electric service a home will require that far into the future. 15 years from now, we could have automated so many more functions that 200 amps may be the equivalent of 50 today -- or appliances could have become so much more efficient, or too expensive to run due to energy costs, that 50 is overkill.
But like I said I like the concept. Do you think I could apply it to a built-in HDTV? 8-)
Just playing devil's advocate on a Sunday morning! :-/
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Viinny,
You make a very good point and yes, had our service panel been crowded and we needed a larger panel, I would change to a 150 or 200 amp panel. Who knows what the future will hold :-?
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Well, I didn't buy Home Depot vinyl siding and it ain't powder blue. I bought a higher grade vinyl so hopefully it won't be an issue but you're right you never know. I bought a beigey color and all new constuction has the beige thing going on!
Being a techie and knowing how people like neat looking in the prospective home they are buying (a neutral interior will sell faster than an interior with a lot of different colors - at least that's what I've been told). I own a 4 bedroom home and based on what I need I forcasted the needs of the future of both myself and future owners 200 amps may be sufficient. I have 2 boys with buzz cuts - no blowdryers here except my wife. I forsee more (or equivilent) electrical usage rather than less.
I think young people who want a house with a hot tub, deck with screen room, 4 bedrooms, 2 1/2 baths, basement, 2 car garage and 200 amp service will buy it vs a plain jane house - it's already done for them. My last house was a townhome and I needed a new kichen, entrance way and 1/2 bath floor. I could have gotten linoleum but opted to put a ceramic tile floor in because I wanted an edge over the other townhomes when it came time to sell - I think I acheived it!.
Hey, I don't have a crystal ball but as I see things people's lives are getting more complicated as time goes by. 200 amp service (or vinyl siding) may not be everything that one's looking for but at least it's there. People still buy houses with alumnum siding from the 60's - yuk! 8-)
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Cola,
Sorry to have backed you up on this and then taken a couple of days off.
I don't want to restart this again but your right! Maybe we should leave it alone and just say you and I know a dirty little secret ;)
I assume you are saying Cola is correct in suggesting that the hot tub can "live" on the existing 100 amp service. Please read my posts that say the same thing. It's only his OPINION that the service SHOULDN'T be upgraded that differs. There is no right or wrong...only preference. And I know you want everyone to think that there are some little secrets involved here but, don't flatter yourself...there are none...eh...
Now please go ahead and suggest to mcrofutt that the 100 amp service is sufficient for the pool addition as well.
Sheesh...
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Now please go ahead and suggest to mcrofutt that the 100 amp service is sufficient for the pool addition as well.
Windsurfdog,
As I said I don't want to restart this debate
As far as the pool addition, I have a inground pool 1hp pump on 100 amp service.......sheesh
Clamp on amp meter registered 88 amps on tub start up with air, stove, dryer and pool running!
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Guess I feel compelled to voice my opinion...not on the electric issue per say, ...but on Vinny's ideas of adding to resale value...(Sorry Reese, but there is a commercial right now on the EAgles game ;))
Anyway, I agree with home improvements geared to increasing the resale value of your home...because they don't have to be realized ONLY at resale. If you anticipate needing or wanting a home equity loan, those improvements add value and can actually have an impact on the interest rate for the loan. When I applied for a home equity to put in a new kitchen, the bank appraiser specifically asked about my electric service. How much did that impact the value of my house? I don't know, but his attitude was that 200 amp was expected, if I had less, he needed to note it. Ok...back to the game
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Guess I feel compelled to voice my opinion...not on the electric issue per say, ...but on Vinny's ideas of adding to resale value...(Sorry Reese, but there is a commercial right now on the EAgles game ;))
I was just teasing Vinny about using a 15 year time frame in his resale rationalization, hence the ;) ::) 8-) :-/ . Given his knowledge of how to clean up the odor of corpses, I hope he understood. :o
By the way, we here in Minnesota are anxiously awaiting the debut of "Eagles West" tomorrow night -- although even we had to draw the line at Mike McMahon.
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Before this disintegrates again, let me admit that amp draws are site specific. Just because our house didn't need a panel upgrade doesn't mean mcrofutt 's house would be OK on 100 amp service.
It is just myself and wife (no kids) so the odds of multiple appliances being started at the same time is zero. Our home is new and appliances are all energy star rated, furnace and a/c are both high efficiency and tub has only 1 pump.
Am I saying that mcrfutt can live with 100 amp service---maybe. What should be done is to have an electrician come out and calculate the wattage and amp draw for their specific needs and make their decision based on that info. I am very wary of people that just want to sell you something in addition to what you hired or asked them to do. Show me proof that it is needed and I have no problem paying for a needed up grade. In our case it was not needed.
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I've got 100 amp service. I had multiple electricians out for bids (4 or 6 can't remember now) when I got my tub and nobody suggested that I upgrade. I live in SoCal and have AC on all summer, but I also have gas furnace, gas hot water heater, gas stove, and a gas dryer.
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Now please go ahead and suggest to mcrofutt that the 100 amp service is sufficient for the pool addition as well.
Windsurfdog,
As I said I don't want to restart this debate
As far as the pool addition, I have a inground pool 1hp pump on 100 amp service.......sheesh
Clamp on amp meter registered 88 amps on tub start up with air, stove, dryer and pool running!
Sorry, I just cant resist ... you do know you are over the 80% threshold! ;) 8-)
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Before this disintegrates again, let me admit that amp draws are site specific. Just because our house didn't need a panel upgrade doesn't mean mcrofutt 's house would be OK on 100 amp service.
It is just myself and wife (no kids) so the odds of multiple appliances being started at the same time is zero. Our home is new and appliances are all energy star rated, furnace and a/c are both high efficiency and tub has only 1 pump.
Am I saying that mcrfutt can live with 100 amp service---maybe. What should be done is to have an electrician come out and calculate the wattage and amp draw for their specific needs and make their decision based on that info. I am very wary of people that just want to sell you something in addition to what you hired or asked them to do. Show me proof that it is needed and I have no problem paying for a needed up grade. In our case it was not needed.
Now that makes sense...I concur.
When replying to these types of inquiries at sites like this, I feel a conservative reply is necessary when dealing with something as volatile as electricity can be.
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I've got 100 amp service. I had multiple electricians out for bids (4 or 6 can't remember now) when I got my tub and nobody suggested that I upgrade. I live in SoCal and have AC on all summer, but I also have gas furnace, gas hot water heater, gas stove, and a gas dryer.
Exactly...because of the gas load. If mcrofutt's appliances utilized gas like yours, there would be no debate.
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Sorry, I just cant resist ... you do know you are over the 80% threshold! ;) 8-)
Vinny,
Kinda yes and no, the 88 amps was at start up after a couple of seconds it settled down below 80 amps
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When replying to these types of inquiries at sites like this, I feel a conservative reply is necessary when dealing with something as volatile as electricity can be.
Windsurfdog,
Good advise
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Sorry, I just cant resist ... you do know you are over the 80% threshold! ;) 8-)
Kinda yes and no, the 88 amps was at start up after a couple of seconds it settled down below 80 amps
Aren't mains different than individual circuits, and rated to run at full capacity, not 80%?
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Some mains are 80% rated & some are 100% rated.
My best rec. to anyone is to install the tub first and consider upgrade later if required.
If you do get your panel upgraded, make sure the main feed upgrade is in the quote.
Going from a 30 circuit, 100 amp panel to a 42 circuit, 200 amp panel does not mean that you have 200 amps available, just 12 more breaker positions.
You may have to upgrade the breakers for the bedrooms to arc fault during the upgrade which would add a good amount to the cost.
Another thing to to check is that your load is balanced. If you are pulling 30 amps on one leg and 14 amps on the other with your pool pump running, moving the feed to that outlet to the oposite leg might give you readings of 20 amps and 24 amps respectively for example.
When I get a chance, I will get some current (amp) readings from various equipment and post.
Well it's dinner time.
Steve
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If you do get your panel upgraded, make sure the main feed upgrade is in the quote.
Going from a 30 circuit, 100 amp panel to a 42 circuit, 200 amp panel does not mean that you have 200 amps available, just 12 more breaker positions.
You may have to upgrade the breakers for the bedrooms to arc fault during the upgrade which would add a good amount to the cost.
Another thing to to check is that your load is balanced. If you are pulling 30 amps on one leg and 14 amps on the other with your pool pump running, moving the feed to that outlet to the oposite leg might give you readings of 20 amps and 24 amps respectively for example.
When I get a chance, I will get some current (amp) readings from various equipment and post.
Well it's dinner time.
Steve
One of the simplest, most cost efficient ways to upgrade a service is to install a new weatherproof 200 amp main breaker panel, new 200 amp rated meterbase fed with new 200 amp rated service conductors at the same location where the existing meterbase is located. The existing panel would then be fed with a new 100 amp breaker installed in the new panel...many times the existing 100 amp service conductors that feed from the existing meterbase to the existing panel can be rerouted to the new 100 amp breaker without having to pull new 100 amp rated service wires to the existing panel thus saving those costs. And if your existing panel and meterbase are back-to-back, then everything becomes much easier. This setup would not require new arcfault breakers being installed since none of that circuitry would be touched. Of course, if the inspector insisted, anything is possible. BTW, I understand that some areas of the country may not allow weatherproof main panels...I really don't understand why...so this may not be an option for this application. Oh, and having a new weatherproof panel makes spa and pool circuitry that much easier to install as well... 8-)
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Well gang, the second estimate came in at 2500, including all permit activity. So this seems to be the ballpark for my area. I went with him for the money and for the confidence he instilled in me.
I appreciate all the opinions presented here, and understand that each person has an opinion based on what they know and are comfortable with.
Again, whew!!, you guys are a lively bunch. Thanks.
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Good luck on your project, and in my OPINION you did the right thing.
And if we all agreed on everthing, it'd be a pretty boring bb.
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Seems like my electrical part of the install was about $500-$600 bucks which was adding some new breaker and digging the trench to place the wiring up and under the slab just before it was poured. I think the two electrical guys were there for about 2-3 hours. The slab was about $500 too.....So slab and electric was about a grand.
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y273/ItsZep/Hot%20Tub/Tub.jpg)
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Don't waste your money on the upgrade
Search my old posts, you will see that it is a waste of money
You will not be running the tub full out at the same time that you are running
an electric drier
hot water heater
heating up the oven
air conditioning
it just doesn't happen
save the money on the upgrade
Steve
Industrial Electrician
dido
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Another thing to to check is that your load is balanced. If you are pulling 30 amps on one leg and 14 amps on the other with your pool pump running, moving the feed to that outlet to the opposite leg might give you readings of 20 amps and 24 amps respectively for example.
Cola,
This is a new one for me and I didn't know that. Are you saying that the amp draw on the right side breakers should equal the draw on the left? What would the ramifications be if the load wasn't balanced?
When we built the house the electrical contractor left 8 empty slots on the bottom(ours is mounted horizontally) and I have added pool, hot tub and basement wiring to those once empty slots, could this become a problem?
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dido
You left out the "L"....... 8-)
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dido
You left out the "L"....... 8-)
;D ;D Excellent!