Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: Bonibelle on September 07, 2006, 08:33:20 am
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Mention was made on another thread (by Gary) about spa shells that are fiberglass backed. So now I am curious .... It would obviously be more expensive to add fiberglass, so which tub brands do this? Is it purely a structural thing or are there other advantages to a fiberglass backing? Just wondering :-?
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You don't suppose Gary happens to sell a brand that uses fiberglass, do you. ;) I'm guessing this is another version of the FF/thermopane and bypass/no-bypass debates. I imagine all tubs were fiberglass the old days, but with all the materials/construction techniques available today, it is probably more a marketing tool than anything. I expect at least one mfg to state that their FF tubs are "so well supported you don't need costly and enviromentally unfriendly fiberglass", and another to use a "space-age material 100x stronger than fiberglass". :P
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You don't suppose Gary happens to sell a brand that uses fiberglass, do you. ;) I'm guessing this is another version of the FF/thermopane and bypass/no-bypass debates. I imagine all tubs were fiberglass the old days, but with all the materials/construction techniques available today, it is probably more a marketing tool than anything. I expect at least one mfg to state that their FF tubs are "so well supported you don't need costly and enviromentally unfriendly fiberglass", and another to use a "space-age material 100x stronger than fiberglass". :P
The only thing I sell is service!
The reasons some manufactures do not fiber-glass is for EPA standards in their area. Fiber-glassing is the best way to go. If you do not fiber-glass then you will have an piece of ABS co-extruded to the bottom on the shell and then high dense foam (5lb) is added for structural support. The biggest problem with this method is you cannot cover the entire shell, you have to leave open areas to drill for the jets. So if you are off a little you will have portions of the shell with no support. I have seen this on just about every brand that does it this way and when they crack you have a leaking spa.
With a fiber-glass spa if that shell cracks it is only an aesthetic problem nothing more.
Have you ever seen you push any brand of spa on this forum, let me answer for you. It is no. I only try to offer advice on what I know.
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Hello Gary,
Sounds reasonable. It sounds like spas with fiberglass shells are superior to those with other types of construction. This shopper wants to know which manufacturers use fiberglass, and those who do not. Can you (and other posters) take a shot at a list here?
Thanks!
Altazi
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The biggest problem with this method is you cannot cover the entire shell, you have to leave open areas to drill for the jets. So if you are off a little you will have portions of the shell with no support. I have seen this on just about every brand that does it this way and when they crack you have a leaking spa.
I'm not sure where you've seen that because the proper way to do it is to drill the jet openings and install the jet wallfittings (with the backs masked off) before you spray the foam on. That way the entire shell does get covered and I'm sure they all use much denser foam than 5lb.
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Off the top of my head HotSpring Spas and Dimension one are thermoplastic spa shells reinforced with coextruded ABS backing. Then there are the rotational molded spas, XSpa, Freeflow and some I'm sure I've never heard of. Virtually all other spas use the fiberglass method. You will find longer structural warranties on fiberglass spas. Granted, the structure rarely fails on any spa, however, we all talk about it in our presentations when a customer asks about warranty, so it aparently has some meaning.
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You don't suppose Gary happens to sell a brand that uses fiberglass, do you. ;)
The only thing I sell is service!
Have you ever seen you push any brand of spa on this forum, let me answer for you. It is no. I only try to offer advice on what I know.
Sorry that I lumped you in with the bozos that use every consumer's question to position their brand as superior. It's just that whenever I see statement like "... is the only way to go" without discussing pros and cons fairly, I assume they are trying to sell something. It is so hard for a consumer to sort out which is important, which is just theoretically better, but practically unimportant--or worse yet, marketing fluff. IMO, there is more than one way to construct a good performing, long lasting tub.
Now back to trying to understand if this is important to a consumer: Given your strong support of fiberglass, is it fair to assume that you see a lot more shell failures on HS and D1 spas than other major brands? Would you recommend an off-brand fiberglass spa over HS/D1?
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You don't suppose Gary happens to sell a brand that uses fiberglass, do you. ;)
The only thing I sell is service!
Have you ever seen you push any brand of spa on this forum, let me answer for you. It is no. I only try to offer advice on what I know.
Sorry that I lumped you in with the bozos that use every consumer's question to position their brand as superior. It's just that whenever I see statement like "... is the only way to go" without discussing pros and cons fairly, I assume they are trying to sell something. It is so hard for a consumer to sort out which is important, which is just theoretically better, but practically unimportant--or worse yet, marketing fluff. IMO, there is more than one way to construct a good performing, long lasting tub.
Now back to trying to understand if this is important to a consumer: Given your strong support of fiberglass, is it fair to assume that you see a lot more shell failures on HS and D1 spas than other major brands? Would you recommend an off-brand fiberglass spa over HS/D1?
I do see more cracks (about 2 to 1) with non-fiber-glass spas, but the difference is when the non-fiberglass cracks the spa leaks. This is a much more costly repair than fixing a cracked fiber-glass spa, as the fiber-glass one will only be an aesthetic issue fixed from the front side.
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Well, I am a consumer (who is in the process of shopping for a spa) and it's important to ME! This is a confusing arena for a shopper, and I am looking for any product differentiators I can find. I know about the importance of strong local dealer support, good warranty, good wet-test, etc., but I would also like to know that the basic design, structure, and components in the spa are first-rate.
A good warranty is nice, but I'd rather not need to USE it. A good dealer is important, but I'd rather be hitting him up for chemicals, etc., than repairs.
Regards,
Altazi
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Oh Gary, I'm sorry I asked! I just didn't remember any sales people every presenting this as an aspect to consider. So I have no idea about my tub...and at this point I don't really even want to know....but maybe this could help others make a decision. ;)
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Well, I am a consumer (who is in the process of shopping for a spa) and it's important to ME! This is a confusing arena for a shopper, and I am looking for any product differentiators I can find.
With all due respect, how will you know which of these "differentiators" are important in a practical sense?:-? Your own product testing lab? A vast personal knowledge of hot-tub components and construction techniques? The opinion of a tech or salesperson? Your EE background? Common sense? A coin flip? Some of the experts on this forum have been in the industry for years, and they can't agree on what consitutes the "best hot-tub."
My point was that you have to take each statement made here and in salesrooms of "_____ is the only way to go" --evaluate it , challenge it, and in the end, disregard most of them.8-) All these "differentiators" are what make the arena confusing. That is why I am so quick (too quick, in this case :() to object to obvious sales posts. As I said before, IMO there is more than one way to make a reliable high quality spa, and I'll add that it is relatively easy to spot the ones that are not well made (little/no insulation, sloppy construction, cheap components, etc).
In this example, while Gary makes a compelling case for fiberglass, I'm sure one of the HS folks could make a good case for the superiority of co-extruded, multiple density foam supported shells. If you shop long enough, you will find a "Company B" that has very good reasons why what "Company A" says is a strength is actually a weakness, and vice-versa. How will you know for sure which, if either, is right, or even important to your long term enjoyment of your spa? I hope you have that testing lab, because Consumer Reports hasn't weighed in yet.
IMO, it is better to focus on your budget, what features you want, how the tub fits you, and yes -- the warranty, and dealer and manufacturers reputation. Or you can spend the time trying to sort out components, frame construction, shell and backing material, insulation method and filtration, all the things that you will hopefully never have to see again. Most major manufacturers, and many of the lessor known ones, make a high quality spa that will provide you with years of enjoyment. The different techniques they use may be good fodder for internet discussions, but for the average consumer, the end results are hardly "differentiators". Good shopping to you! :)
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Hello Gary,
Sounds reasonable. It sounds like spas with fiberglass shells are superior to those with other types of construction. This shopper wants to know which manufacturers use fiberglass, and those who do not. Can you (and other posters) take a shot at a list here?
Thanks!
Altazi
Beachcomber Spas are Fiberglassed.
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I think that Altazi is looking to this forum to collect all the information that he can to help him make a really hard decision. What is important to one person, may not be as important to another, but having as much information as possible is the goal. How relative it is to anything, would have to be a consumer's call.
I asked the question because I don't remember any reference to it before....Gary answered the question because he made the original statement and because he would obviously be in a real good position to evaluate the value of fiber glass on a tub..so in my mind, he is the test lab.
I did not mean this post to start any kind of argument, just to understand the concept. :-/
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I think that Altazi is looking to this forum to collect all the information that he can to help him make a really hard decision. What is important to one person, may not be as important to another, but having as much information as possible is the goal. How relative it is to anything, would have to be a consumer's call.
I asked the question because I don't remember any reference to it before....Gary answered the question because he made the original statement and because he would obviously be in a real good position to evaluate the value of fiber glass on a tub..so in my mind, he is the test lab.
I did not mean this post to start any kind of argument, just to understand the concept. :-/
Hi Bonibelle,
You are exactly correct; I am here to learn. Thanks for your support! :)
Reese's comments are also valid, if a bit testy - how WILL I understand all of this potentially conflicting information? Well, some of it goes through my own BS filter. Some of it I will research on websites such as this, and hopefully get good information. Having a repair tech mention that he repairs twice as many non-fiberglass tubs may be a good differentiator, especially if those types of tubs tend to have shorter warranties on the shell.
Yes, I will use my education and experience to help me make my decision. I am one of those "handy" guys who can fix anything (just ask my wife :)), and have an extremely quick grasp of mechanical and electrical concepts. I have a good eye for quality - which my wife says also translates into having a knack for finding the most expensive items in a store. . . So far, I have done pretty well, and I don't see any reason for this to change.
I am not familiar with the spa industry, but am coming up to speed rather quickly. Example: I have already gone to several of the motor manufacturer's websites to research technical information. I understand the technical aspects extremely well; what I also want to know is how well they hold up and perform in the various spas. Having great components in a spa is a place to start, but if a manufacturer doesn't correctly apply the component, all bets are off. When I see someone make a posting like "I am having trouble with xxx", I look at it to see if it is a "user-caused" problem, or something that could indicate that I might have the same problem if I had that spa. . .
My goal is to select a spa that will provide years of trouble-free relaxation and enjoyment. I would rather put the research effort into the front end, than deal with avoidable hassles after I get a spa.
Regards,
Altazi :)
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Most spas are fiberglass backed but there are many differences in thicknesses. Cheaper manufacturers will put 1 layer of fiber glass and call it good. The advantage of fiberglass over an ABS; if you were to ever have a crack in the top layer of acrylic, the spa would not leak. Marquis is a fiberglass backed spa with several layers of fiberglass that produced a shell that is about 1/2" thick.
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Where is the data? Is the issue fieberglass vs. no fiberglass? Maybe it can be quality manufacturing process.
To lump all fiberglass spas in a group vs. all non-fiberglass spas seems a little silly to me.
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Most spas are fiberglass backed but there are many differences in thicknesses. Cheaper manufacturers will put 1 layer of fiber glass and call it good. The advantage of fiberglass over an ABS; if you were to ever have a crack in the top layer of acrylic, the spa would not leak. Marquis is a fiberglass backed spa with several layers of fiberglass that produced a shell that is about 1/2" thick.
Thank you, MarKee. I would call that a positive differentiator. Does anyone reading this post think otherwise? If so, please explain your reasoning. Thanks!
Regards,
Altazi
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Pshew! since fiberglass appears to be a good thing, I am glad to know my tub has it...Thanks Markee. Maybe we should let this one go and just say it is good information. I am willing to bet most sales people wouldn't even bring this up...It isn't as visible as Full foam...no by-Pass ....or do we now have another parameter in that category? :o
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Hi Bonibelle,
First, what is that little cartoon you use as your avatar?
Next, what I would like to know is the frequency of repairs by manufacturer, kind of like Consumer Reports does for products they evaluate. I wish the repair techs would post what tubs they work on, and why. Are most problems caused by the users? Is it normal wear-and-tear, or something else?
I'd REALLY like to see something like the CR Automobile issue, where one could see failure ratings for each spa manufacturer, product by product, year by year, with details on the various components: shell, surface, heater, pumps, blower, electronics, etc.
Of course, this kind of information isn't available to us consumers. I am pretty sure each manufacturer has this information, but won't share it. So, what is a careful consumer to do? Research on the Internet, read posts on the spa forum, talk to salespeople, and try to figure out a straight story out of all of that.
Regards,
Altazi
PS - I never claimed to be an average consumer, if there even is such a creature. I am an analytical, picky, thorough S.O.B. who NEVER makes a decision purely based on emotions. I suppose that makes me a salesperson's nightmare.
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I'm a hot tub business owner, selling Watkins- HotSpring, Tiger River, Solana, and Hot Spot Spas.
Every HotSpring(with exception to the Classic series-thermal plastic), Tiger River and Solana spa are not fiberglassed and ARE Acrylic. I've NEVER seen one with a crack in the water. I've seen a handful with A crack at the start of the shell where it meets the cabinet. Have I seen some thermal plastic Hot Spring spas with cracks- yes. A fraction of a percentage of the ones we've sold.
Our Hot Spot spa line is fiberglass backed.
Some thing to remember is - dissimilar materials shrink and expand at different rates through hot and cold temperatures. Acrylic sheets and fiberglass are very DISSIMILAR materials.
The last 10-15 acrylic/ fibergalss spas we took in on trade-in/ removal ALL had cracks in the shells. Some minor, some extensive. We get calls to cosmetic repair cracks in fiberglass backed spas. We don't do it, and I've yet to find anyone in our area who does it. There's quite a market for it out there, if someone's looking to get good with an airbrush.
We do have permanent repairs for the thermal plastic. After a five year warranty, where it wouldn't cost you a dime to fix(read YOUR warranty), yes, it isn't cheap for a techician to make a house call to permanently fix a crack. $500-$700. We'll take a trade-in on that spa, or better yet, make the permanent repair and if within three months you want to trade it in, we give you the trade-in value, PLUS your invoice for the repair.
I personally don't think fibergalss backed spas are better, but I'm an owner,salesman, technician, boss, Dad, friend,etc, etc.
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Altazi...Just keep on doing what you are doing. You are right, Consumer Reports doesn't evaluate spas, so you will have to do all the research yourself. For someone who choses high dollar items carefully, buying a spa can be really tough! This forum however is full of great people who share information and experiences that can help you get a handle on all the confusion. If you arm yourself well with information, you can ask the right questions and sort through any sales BS when you are shopping. You may decide that a certain brand fits all the criteria that you think important, but you may not like the selection of tubs made by that manufacturer. I think the first consideration is that the spa fits your needs..size, jets, configuration, etc. Otherwise what is the point? Virtually everyone on here will tell you how important it is to wet test. Then look at the structural and mechanical things. As far as ratings on various components, I think the manufacturers use pumps and electronics made by various suppliers and that can change year to year.
To me, a good solid warranty is an indicator of a quality product especially since I didn't have a "consumer report" to do reliability research. It's funny, all the research that I did made me even more curious about this industry...and that is why I still hang out here..it is a constant learning experience.(for more than just Hot Tub stuff) Besides, this forum is full of cool folks and a great moderator to keep us in line!
My avitar is just a cartoon from PrintShop software... ;)
Good luck, you'll be soaking before you know it.
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Considering one of the top brands in this industry uses the ABS and you don't hear of cracking issues, I'd have to say that saying fiberglass is better than Acrylic/ABS is simply an opinion.
I have a Hot Spring and have no cracks. In my years in service I saw many more fiberglass shells with blisters and cracks. I do know many of the top brands that fiberglass do it in a manner where they have overcome that issue so you really don't see much of that anymore.
I could see this turn into a FF/TP conversation. Those who sell fiberglass will think that is superior. Those who don't use fiberglass will think theirs is better.
Basically, most manufacturers have figured out how to make a good shell and one that one crack. As long as you go with a good brand with a good reputation and a good warranty, you will be fine.
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There are also various types of fiberglass mixtures that manufacturers use. How the shell is backed shouldn't be the biggest concern. A quality manufacturer like Marquis or Hotspring will give you a solid warranty, 7 years not only on the structure but ALSO on the surface of the shell (cosmetics). There are a lot of misleading warranties out there that give a 20 year or lifetime warranty on the shell, but when you read the fine print it's only on the structure of the shell and the surface is warranteed for 3 or 5 years. I can't speak for other brands, but I have never seen a Marquis shell lose water or structurally fail, it doesn't happen. If something were to happen to the shell it would be an issue with the surface layer of acrylic.
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There are also various types of fiberglass mixtures that manufacturers use. How the shell is backed shouldn't be the biggest concern. A quality manufacturer like Marquis or Hotspring will give you a solid warranty, 7 years not only on the structure but ALSO on the surface of the shell (cosmetics). There are a lot of misleading warranties out there that give a 20 year or lifetime warranty on the shell, but when you read the fine print it's only on the structure of the shell and the surface is warranteed for 3 or 5 years. I can't speak for other brands, but I have never seen a Marquis shell lose water or structurally fail, it doesn't happen. If something were to happen to the shell it would be an issue with the surface layer of acrylic.
Would you say that some "cheaper" spas go cheaper on their fiberglass and thus are not as good as say a Marquis or Sundance or Caldera? They could still say they are fiberglassed, but not be done as well as others?
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Ya I don't know the exact science of fiberglassing, but I know there are different resin mixtures and different ways of making the fiberglass adhere to the acrylic. I do know that "bubbling" occurs when the acrylic seperates from the fiber glass backing. I have never seen "bubbling" on a Marquis but I've heard it happens on other brands, probably lower end manufacturers that don't have the experience or science to build the shell properly.
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I'm more than happy to climb up on the side of any empty spa in my showroom (with the exception of HotSpots, which are fiberglass) and jump down into the bottom with my 240 lb frame. I'd be more than happy to do the same to any other brand of spa (as long as I won't be held responsible for damages).
Terminator
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It sounds like spas with fiberglass shells are superior to those with other types of construction.
Altazi, I hope that you followed this thread after you made your conclusion. If you and Bonnibelle thought I was testy, it was because you two were making statements like this, when you only knew 1/2 (actually less) of the story. Sometimes an "extremely quick grasp of mechanical and electrical concepts" will lead a person to to jump to conclusions. It is important to "know enough to know what you don't know".
You are certainly free to search out whatever information you feel is important in making your decision, but I would hate for another casual reader to come across comments like that one and have it influence their choice. That is why I challenged it, and tried to offer you some guidance. My work here is done. ;)
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Hey Term, You can jump up and down in my spa anytime ;) Now wouldn't that be a pic of the day!
But I don't think that is a realistic test for anything...a real test is a practical one that presents the product the way it was supposed to be used. My husband and I argue over this all the time...you can do all the testing you want but if it isn't relevant to how something is actually done, or used..it doesn't mean much. In other words, you would have to "validate" your test method and prove that it replicates actual stress during use and extropolate those results over a time period (the expected life of the spa). :P ;)
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Reese, I imagine that you are a dealer, but I don't know that. The reason that I assume that is because you don't seem to get where we are coming from. As dealers, you have all the information before you. You are taught how to defend your product from competition. We don't have that information in one spot, so we seek it. How important it is, relative to our purchases, is kind of an evolution...As we learn more, maybe we will realize that fiberglass backing on a shell isn't as important as the filtration system...or the insulation. So if we grab on to a statement, it is because we don't have all of the information at our fingertips and we have to figure out where it fits in the picutre. I think I may have reacted like I did because you jumped on Gary, I'm sorry :-/
Now does anybody have any thoughts about projection TVs and the difference between SXRD and DLP?
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Hello Reese,
I am the first to admit that I don't know everything about spas - why else would I be here talking to all of you? I would prefer that you give me the "other 1/2 of the story" instead of merely criticizing my approach. Perhaps your work here isn't done. . .
I see nothing wrong with making a statement like "It sounds like spas with fiberglass shells are superior to those with other types of construction." It is an appropriate response to the previous posts; it was my intention to open up a discussion wherein people can support or refute the point. Now, if I had made an absolute statement like "Spas with fiberglass shells are superior to those with other types of construction," that would be a problem. I choose my words very carefully.
As for other "casual readers" - they had better be careful, eh? There is a lot of BS to wade through.
Regards,
Altazi
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In Fiberglassed shells there are different qualities as well. The amount of fillers in the resin and the types of resins can vary. Also, some manufacturers (Marquis for one, I don't know if they are the only one) hand roll the fiberglass instead of just shooting it on and letting it dry. This gets rid of voids or air bubbles and makes for a more consistent thickness and strength. When the fiberglass is shot onto the acrylic shell, thick in some places and thin in others, it can give the shell a place to crack instead of a consistent strength with the ability to flex.
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I do see more cracks (about 2 to 1) with non-fiber-glass spas, but the difference is when the non-fiberglass cracks the spa leaks. This is a much more costly repair than fixing a cracked fiber-glass spa, as the fiber-glass one will only be an aesthetic issue fixed from the front side.
I gotta jump in on this as I learned long ago, that while these "numbers" may be true, they may also mean nothing.
Back when I was a lolely spa tech (fighting off dinosaurs to get from job to job) I frequently got calls from people asking what spa I repaired the most, and what the least. Same thing, they were spa shopping and wanted a service techs point of view.
Anyway, brand A I repaired all the time, brand B I rarely if ever did any repairs on. ..... Gee, clear winner, right? Took a few years to learn, but OH HOW WRONG I WAS.
The truth as it turned out........
Brand A had downsized their operations and while they appeared to not sell a lot of spas, in the past they had been a major leader in my area. They also had stopped doing service work on their spas once out of warranty. This meant there were a LOT of service customers "up for grabs"....... And I was pretty aggressive at getting new customers. I got to fix a LOT of these spas.
Brand B...... Brand B continued to grow and sell more and more spas every year. They were VERY service oriented and made a LOT of $ servicing their spas, even after the warranty. They went to great lengths to service their customers and make them happy (customers of course paying for this). They stayed in constant contact with their past customers, even with new owners if a home sold. Once they sold a spa, it was rare that they would lose the owner of that spa as a customer. Hence, this meant there were VERY FEW of this brand of spa service customers "up for grabs"
So, there was me, servicing brand A, and brand B with his own FIVE service techs servicing brand B. Yet from my perspective, I was fixing a heck of a lot more brand A than B.
and they all lived happily ever after........
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Reese, I imagine that you are a dealer, but I don't know that. The reason that I assume that is because you don't seem to get where we are coming from.
No, I'm not a dealer. I'm actually the opposite -- a consumer who finds most of the brand postioning on this site offensive. I stated my opinions on that quite emphatically, so I won't rehash. I jumped in this thread because I learned enough while shopping to know that most every statement like "fiberglass is best" has a counterpoint that is equally credible. When you and Altazi appeared to buy the fiberglass argument without even appearing aware that there was another side, I thought I was helping by pointing out the fallacy of thinking he was in a position to select fiberglass as a "differentiator" this early in his shopping process. By subsequent comments, it is clear to me that he will need to learn that on his own.
You and I don't appear that far apart on the issue of information overload while shopping for spas. You just seem to want to try to process it all, while I recommend sticking to what we consumers have the expertise to evaluate, the things I mentioned in previous posts. I'll leave it for you and Altazi to figure out which frame material, construction techniques, shell, insulation, components, warranty, and dealer network are truly "best". If you do, please let us know. It will save us all a lot of aggravation, and we can focus on lounge/no lounge and which color we like best. :)
p.s. I imagine you are a homemaker with a technical background, looking for places to apply it. Was I any closer than you?
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You're almost right Reese, actually if my husband would let me go back to work...I would not have time to hang on here wondering if I missed something. That was the real reason I even asked the fiberglass question.
I waited to buy my tub until I thought I knew enough to make a good decision. I am happy with that decision, but I don't remember being concerned about how the spa shell was manufactured..so I just wanted to know... inquiring minds want to know...That's all..
[smiley=beer.gif]
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I do see more cracks (about 2 to 1) with non-fiber-glass spas, but the difference is when the non-fiberglass cracks the spa leaks. This is a much more costly repair than fixing a cracked fiber-glass spa, as the fiber-glass one will only be an aesthetic issue fixed from the front side.
I gotta jump in on this as I learned long ago, that while these "numbers" may be true, they may also mean nothing.
Back when I was a lolely spa tech (fighting off dinosaurs to get from job to job) I frequently got calls from people asking what spa I repaired the most, and what the least. Same thing, they were spa shopping and wanted a service techs point of view.
Anyway, brand A I repaired all the time, brand B I rarely if ever did any repairs on. ..... Gee, clear winner, right? Took a few years to learn, but OH HOW WRONG I WAS.
The truth as it turned out........
Brand A had downsized their operations and while they appeared to not sell a lot of spas, in the past they had been a major leader in my area. They also had stopped doing service work on their spas once out of warranty. This meant there were a LOT of service customers "up for grabs"....... And I was pretty aggressive at getting new customers. I got to fix a LOT of these spas.
Brand B...... Brand B continued to grow and sell more and more spas every year. They were VERY service oriented and made a LOT of $ servicing their spas, even after the warranty. They went to great lengths to service their customers and make them happy (customers of course paying for this). They stayed in constant contact with their past customers, even with new owners if a home sold. Once they sold a spa, it was rare that they would lose the owner of that spa as a customer. Hence, this meant there were VERY FEW of this brand of spa service customers "up for grabs"
So, there was me, servicing brand A, and brand B with his own FIVE service techs servicing brand B. Yet from my perspective, I was fixing a heck of a lot more brand A than B.
and they all lived happily ever after........
I'm gona side with Doc. If you fix 1 fiberglass and 2 ABS in one month and there are 4 times the ABS tubs in your town which has the most repairs ABS or fiberglass?
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I do see more cracks (about 2 to 1) with non-fiber-glass spas, but the difference is when the non-fiberglass cracks the spa leaks. This is a much more costly repair than fixing a cracked fiber-glass spa, as the fiber-glass one will only be an aesthetic issue fixed from the front side.
I gotta jump in on this as I learned long ago, that while these "numbers" may be true, they may also mean nothing.
Back when I was a lolely spa tech (fighting off dinosaurs to get from job to job) I frequently got calls from people asking what spa I repaired the most, and what the least. Same thing, they were spa shopping and wanted a service techs point of view.
Anyway, brand A I repaired all the time, brand B I rarely if ever did any repairs on. ..... Gee, clear winner, right? Took a few years to learn, but OH HOW WRONG I WAS.
The truth as it turned out........
Brand A had downsized their operations and while they appeared to not sell a lot of spas, in the past they had been a major leader in my area. They also had stopped doing service work on their spas once out of warranty. This meant there were a LOT of service customers "up for grabs"....... And I was pretty aggressive at getting new customers. I got to fix a LOT of these spas.
Brand B...... Brand B continued to grow and sell more and more spas every year. They were VERY service oriented and made a LOT of $ servicing their spas, even after the warranty. They went to great lengths to service their customers and make them happy (customers of course paying for this). They stayed in constant contact with their past customers, even with new owners if a home sold. Once they sold a spa, it was rare that they would lose the owner of that spa as a customer. Hence, this meant there were VERY FEW of this brand of spa service customers "up for grabs"
So, there was me, servicing brand A, and brand B with his own FIVE service techs servicing brand B. Yet from my perspective, I was fixing a heck of a lot more brand A than B.
and they all lived happily ever after........
I'm gona side with Doc. If you fix 1 fiberglass and 2 ABS in one month and there are 4 times the ABS tubs in your town which has the most repairs ABS or fiberglass?
I do understand what you mean, but if you 100 fiber-glass spas and 100 ABS ones I will see more cracks in the ABS. I am not saying some companies are doing a much better job these days but an ABS backed shell weaker is than fiber-glass one.
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I do see more cracks (about 2 to 1) with non-fiber-glass spas, but the difference is when the non-fiberglass cracks the spa leaks. This is a much more costly repair than fixing a cracked fiber-glass spa, as the fiber-glass one will only be an aesthetic issue fixed from the front side.
I gotta jump in on this as I learned long ago, that while these "numbers" may be true, they may also mean nothing.
Back when I was a lolely spa tech (fighting off dinosaurs to get from job to job) I frequently got calls from people asking what spa I repaired the most, and what the least. Same thing, they were spa shopping and wanted a service techs point of view.
Anyway, brand A I repaired all the time, brand B I rarely if ever did any repairs on. ..... Gee, clear winner, right? Took a few years to learn, but OH HOW WRONG I WAS.
The truth as it turned out........
Brand A had downsized their operations and while they appeared to not sell a lot of spas, in the past they had been a major leader in my area. They also had stopped doing service work on their spas once out of warranty. This meant there were a LOT of service customers "up for grabs"....... And I was pretty aggressive at getting new customers. I got to fix a LOT of these spas.
Brand B...... Brand B continued to grow and sell more and more spas every year. They were VERY service oriented and made a LOT of $ servicing their spas, even after the warranty. They went to great lengths to service their customers and make them happy (customers of course paying for this). They stayed in constant contact with their past customers, even with new owners if a home sold. Once they sold a spa, it was rare that they would lose the owner of that spa as a customer. Hence, this meant there were VERY FEW of this brand of spa service customers "up for grabs"
So, there was me, servicing brand A, and brand B with his own FIVE service techs servicing brand B. Yet from my perspective, I was fixing a heck of a lot more brand A than B.
and they all lived happily ever after........
I'm gona side with Doc. If you fix 1 fiberglass and 2 ABS in one month and there are 4 times the ABS tubs in your town which has the most repairs ABS or fiberglass?
I do understand what you mean, but if you 100 fiber-glass spas and 100 ABS ones I will see more cracks in the ABS. I am not saying some companies are doing a much better job these days but an ABS backed shell weaker is than fiber-glass one.
I think you are presenting a biased opinion. Do you have actual facts from all the different manufacturers on how many cracks they have? This would be the only way to make such a definitive statement. Do you have scientific evidence to prove fiberglass is stronger than the other method? What if the company applying the fiberglass does a poor job? Is it still better?
I'm not saying one is better than the other. IMO, these are two approaches to the same end: A good quality product.
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Hey Gary...Quit keeping track of those cracks...just fix 'em and don't be telling anybody about it! Got it? >:(
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[No, I'm not a dealer. I'm actually the opposite -- a consumer who finds most of the brand postioning on this site offensive. I stated my opinions on that quite emphatically, so I won't rehash. I jumped in this thread because I learned enough while shopping to know that most every statement like "fiberglass is best" has a counterpoint that is equally credible. When you and Altazi appeared to buy the fiberglass argument without even appearing aware that there was another side, I thought I was helping by pointing out the fallacy of thinking he was in a position to select fiberglass as a "differentiator" this early in his shopping process. By subsequent comments, it is clear to me that he will need to learn that on his own.
You and I don't appear that far apart on the issue of information overload while shopping for spas. You just seem to want to try to process it all, while I recommend sticking to what we consumers have the expertise to evaluate, the things I mentioned in previous posts. I'll leave it for you and Altazi to figure out which frame material, construction techniques, shell, insulation, components, warranty, and dealer network are truly "best". If you do, please let us know. It will save us all a lot of aggravation, and we can focus on lounge/no lounge and which color we like best. :)
Reese, you would come off better to me if you would get off the high horse and share some REAL information about spas, not just telling me that "I will need to learn that on [my] own." If you have learned so much while doing your own shopping, why not just share what you have learned? That would help me and all others who are reading this thread.
I am here in good faith, trying to make a reasonable effort to learn as much as I can regarding spas. You don't know my level of expertise, and have no idea what I can or cannot evaluate; to consider otherwise is presumptuous.
In case you missed it, I will restate my position: I INVITE contrasting opinions. I am not going to run off, half-cocked just because one person makes an absolute statement. I am aware that there may be alternate ideas and opinons - I WANT TO HEAR THEM. Please don't just hack at my approach to learning. Share some of your wisdom.
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I do see more cracks (about 2 to 1) with non-fiber-glass spas, but the difference is when the non-fiberglass cracks the spa leaks. This is a much more costly repair than fixing a cracked fiber-glass spa, as the fiber-glass one will only be an aesthetic issue fixed from the front side.
I gotta jump in on this as I learned long ago, that while these "numbers" may be true, they may also mean nothing.
Back when I was a lolely spa tech (fighting off dinosaurs to get from job to job) I frequently got calls from people asking what spa I repaired the most, and what the least. Same thing, they were spa shopping and wanted a service techs point of view.
Anyway, brand A I repaired all the time, brand B I rarely if ever did any repairs on. ..... Gee, clear winner, right? Took a few years to learn, but OH HOW WRONG I WAS.
The truth as it turned out........
Brand A had downsized their operations and while they appeared to not sell a lot of spas, in the past they had been a major leader in my area. They also had stopped doing service work on their spas once out of warranty. This meant there were a LOT of service customers "up for grabs"....... And I was pretty aggressive at getting new customers. I got to fix a LOT of these spas.
Brand B...... Brand B continued to grow and sell more and more spas every year. They were VERY service oriented and made a LOT of $ servicing their spas, even after the warranty. They went to great lengths to service their customers and make them happy (customers of course paying for this). They stayed in constant contact with their past customers, even with new owners if a home sold. Once they sold a spa, it was rare that they would lose the owner of that spa as a customer. Hence, this meant there were VERY FEW of this brand of spa service customers "up for grabs"
So, there was me, servicing brand A, and brand B with his own FIVE service techs servicing brand B. Yet from my perspective, I was fixing a heck of a lot more brand A than B.
and they all lived happily ever after........
I'm gona side with Doc. If you fix 1 fiberglass and 2 ABS in one month and there are 4 times the ABS tubs in your town which has the most repairs ABS or fiberglass?
I do understand what you mean, but if you 100 fiber-glass spas and 100 ABS ones I will see more cracks in the ABS. I am not saying some companies are doing a much better job these days but an ABS backed shell weaker is than fiber-glass one.
I think you are presenting a biased opinion. Do you have actual facts from all the different manufacturers on how many cracks they have? This would be the only way to make such a definitive statement. Do you have scientific evidence to prove fiberglass is stronger than the other method? What if the company applying the fiberglass does a poor job? Is it still better?
I'm not saying one is better than the other. IMO, these are two approaches to the same end: A good quality product.
I think we got off track and I am as much to blame as anyone. Here is how I see it:
Probably both types cracks as much as the other who really knows, but when an ABS one cracks the spa leaks so the customer will need it fixed. A fiberglass one can crack and the customer may never know (especially if it is out of warranty). Do I think one is better than the other, absolutely (if done correct).
No matter which one there are manufacturers that will do it wrong.
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I revise my earlier post. I sell a $7.00 tube of leak-fixer, in leiu of the $500 permanent fix. You may have to apply some every couple months. Works slick!
Let's face it, it you have a crack in your shell, you know it! The cracks that hold water, harbor unfiltered, unsanitized water--like them air blower channels. Plus those types of cracks pinch you a$$ when you move around in a seat.
It's still the guy you buy the spa from who makes the difference. I'ts best to choose a dealer wisely, than choose shell construction.
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It's still the guy you buy the spa from who makes the difference. I'ts best to choose a dealer wisely, than choose shell construction.
Hello HPB,
The need for a good, solid dealer is one point upon which I believe we can all agree.
Regards,
Altazi