Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: ORANGEPEEL on September 05, 2006, 11:42:09 am
-
After about 2 mo's. in our new tub I've been able to keep our water clear, and chems balanced basically using Dichlor and following "Vermonter's" approach.
I do have a question on bacteria levels: Does clear water equal low/no bacteria?? (I assume it does).
There are testing methods for chems., but, is there a cost effective (low cost) way to actually check for bacteria levels??
-
If you have clean, clear water, you are most likely safe. I'm not saying you are totally bacteria free, but you are effectively killing what might be in the water because you probably are keeping the correct level of sanitizers in the water.
I'm sure there is a way to test for bacteria, but cheap ways to do it? I've never seen one - probably would have to be done in some type of a lab.
-
Does clear water equal low/no bacteria?? There are testing methods for chems., but, is there a cost effective (low cost) way to actually check for bacteria levels??
No. Clear water does not equal low/no bacteria. If you are using chlorine, the safest way to assure you are bacteria few (not bacteria free), is to make sure you get the free chlorine level to 3-5ppm when you are done using the spa. Also get it to that level if you do not use the spa for more than 4 days. This will knock the bacteria down to a level that is not harmful.
-
Does clear water equal low/no bacteria?? There are testing methods for chems., but, is there a cost effective (low cost) way to actually check for bacteria levels??
No. Clear water does not equal low/no bacteria. If you are using chlorine, the safest way to assure you are bacteria few (not bacteria free), is to make sure you get the free chlorine level to 3-5ppm when you are done using the spa. Also get it to that level if you do not use the spa for more than 4 days. This will knock the bacteria down to a level that is not harmful.
I agree. Clear water does not necessarily mean safe water.
-
I use the amount of residual chlorine 8 and 24 hours after a dose as an indicator for active bacteria in the tub. If a 3-5 ppm dose still has over 1ppm after 8 hours, and any measurable amount after 24, I feel confident that the chlorine is staying ahead of the bacteria. Now there could be some chlorine resistant strain in there... but with otherwise clear, no-odor water, I'm not concerned.
On the other hand, if all the chlorine is gone after 2 hours...
-
They shut down over 60% of the public pools in Montreal a few weeks ago when they found high bacteria, E-coli, and a bunch of other nasty's in the water of those pools. They thought that keeping chlorine and PH at acceptacle levels was good enough
Guess not always
Eh!
Steve
-
I not quite sure but I do think commercial pools test for bacteria as Cola said. I don't think they look at chlorine consumption as I know that smaller commercial type pools (condo) will close pools for bacteria levels too. As a individual pool or spa owner this test isn't common to us but might be part of a commercial kit.
-
I use the amount of residual chlorine 8 and 24 hours after a dose as an indicator for active bacteria in the tub. If a 3-5 ppm dose still has over 1ppm after 8 hours, and any measurable amount after 24, I feel confident that the chlorine is staying ahead of the bacteria. Now there could be some chlorine resistant strain in there... but with otherwise clear, no-odor water, I'm not concerned.
On the other hand, if all the chlorine is gone after 2 hours...
A good sanitizing routine will keep your water safe and bug free. The question specifically was does clear water mean bacteria free water. You can have unsafe water that is clear. You can have cloudy water that is safe. Cloudy water is certainly an indicator of a problem as clear water is an indicator of being maintained. To unequivically say that clear water is safe water is inaccurate. :)
-
I can remember testing the pool water for the YMCA. It involves taking a sample in a sterile vessel (so not to introduce additional bacteria) with sanitizer inactivator. Then filtering a pre-determined amount of the water through membrane filters and putting the filters on agar plates of media specific for water organisms. Then the plates are incubated at a specified temperature for a specified time (that was 15 years ago so I don't remember all those specifics). At the end of the incubation period, the plates were evaluated for the number of bacteria, in additon to the types of organisms. (you would need a microbiology lab). So I made this into a long story, but this is why they don't have an "As seen on TV" bacterial indicator test kit for at home use! Besides, it could be dangerous to culture bacteria without an effective way to kill it. (autoclave)
My husband and I were going to do microbial testing on our tub, but somehow forgot all about it. Maybe I can get him to bring some plates from work and we can do a simple experiment to see if we can recover growth at different levels of sanitizer...
I know Vinny will love this one! ;) :o
-
[smiley=thumbsup.gif] Do it - Bonibelle - Do it ... I didn't forget that you were supposed to do it. [smiley=thumbsup.gif]
My parents brought me up correctly, never be a P.I.T.A. and be gracious for what I get. I wasn't going to bring it up ... but since you did ... Do It! [smiley=thumbsup.gif]
-
I use the amount of residual chlorine 8 and 24 hours after a dose as an indicator for active bacteria in the tub. If a 3-5 ppm dose still has over 1ppm after 8 hours, and any measurable amount after 24, I feel confident that the chlorine is staying ahead of the bacteria. Now there could be some chlorine resistant strain in there... but with otherwise clear, no-odor water, I'm not concerned.
On the other hand, if all the chlorine is gone after 2 hours...
A good sanitizing routine will keep your water safe and bug free. The question specifically was does clear water mean bacteria free water. You can have unsafe water that is clear. You can have cloudy water that is safe. Cloudy water is certainly an indicator of a problem as clear water is an indicator of being maintained. To unequivically say that clear water is safe water is inaccurate. :)
Tony,
I have to agree with Reese on this, but you make a valid point as well. Since the question isn't as simple as yes clear water is clean, cloudy is dirty - a great indicator would be put chlorine in a tub and see how much is left after a while, I do this myself. I put minimal amount of chlorine in (about 1.5 PPM) after soaking and many times I have a residue by the morning or even the following night. It may be very light but it's still there. All info that I have read is that bacteria will use up the chlorine quickly as the chlorine is trying to kill it and if the demand is greater than the supply there will be no residue. In the year that I have had my tub, I have had only about 3 times where the next morning there wasn't any chlorine left and I hit the tub with 3 to 4.5 PPM to have a greater kill. I have also soaked in cloudy water that I hit with 3 to 4.5 PPM in the morning and it was still cloudy at night but I still had a chlorine residue (maybe 1 PPM) even though it was cloudy. My logic on that is that if after at least 480 minutes I still have chlorine then the cloudiness if caused by bacteria (and I always assume it is) is a dead cloud.
I will say that I REALLY hate soaking in a cloudy tub.
-
To unequivically say that clear water is safe water is inaccurate. :)
I don't think I did. :-? What I was trying to convey is a belief that if you still have a chlorine residual several hours after an application, there likely is not an active bacteria infection growing in the tub. The clear water was part of a qualifier about chlorine resistant organisms. :)
-
I can remember testing the pool water for the YMCA. It involves taking a sample in a sterile vessel (so not to introduce additional bacteria) with sanitizer inactivator. Then filtering a pre-determined amount of the water through membrane filters and putting the filters on agar plates of media specific for water organisms. Then the plates are incubated at a specified temperature for a specified time (that was 15 years ago so I don't remember all those specifics). At the end of the incubation period, the plates were evaluated for the number of bacteria, in additon to the types of organisms. (you would need a microbiology lab). So I made this into a long story, but this is why they don't have an "As seen on TV" bacterial indicator test kit for at home use! Besides, it could be dangerous to culture bacteria without an effective way to kill it.
I know Vinny will love this one! ;) :o
Boni and others
This test is called HPC or heterotrophic plate count and is the ONLY way to accurately measure bacteria in a water sample other than a high powered microscope. Even after a 24 hour incubation period you still cannot tell what is there, just that something is there, this is commonly called a high background count.
The test Vinny and Reese use, by watching how fast the chlorine residual drops could be considered a good indication of bacteria being present.
As far as trying to kill the cultured "bugs" a good whack of sodium hypo about 200 ppm will kill just about everything.
And yes ;) I knew Vinny would love this one too ;)
I am sure there are other methods that can be used to detect bacteria levels in a tub and I would defer to the Vermonter or I could get the info from one of the plant operators
Sorry I should have originally added this also, clear water DOES NOT mean safe water just ask the poor folks in Walkerton ON, Collingwood ON. Milwaukee Wis. :'(
-
My mother is a chief microbiologist for our cities waste water plant. I could get my water tested anytime, but I do not bother with it. A good cleaning routine should take care of any problems.
There are these, but I have no idea how effective they are:
http://spadepot.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=TB1002
-
id like to read some user info on those strips sounds to 2good2btrue
-
I use the amount of residual chlorine 8 and 24 hours after a dose as an indicator for active bacteria in the tub. If a 3-5 ppm dose still has over 1ppm after 8 hours, and any measurable amount after 24, I feel confident that the chlorine is staying ahead of the bacteria. Now there could be some chlorine resistant strain in there... but with otherwise clear, no-odor water, I'm not concerned.
On the other hand, if all the chlorine is gone after 2 hours...
A good sanitizing routine will keep your water safe and bug free. The question specifically was does clear water mean bacteria free water. You can have unsafe water that is clear. You can have cloudy water that is safe. Cloudy water is certainly an indicator of a problem as clear water is an indicator of being maintained. To unequivically say that clear water is safe water is inaccurate. :)
Tony,
I have to agree with Reese on this, but you make a valid point as well. Since the question isn't as simple as yes clear water is clean, cloudy is dirty - a great indicator would be put chlorine in a tub and see how much is left after a while, I do this myself. I put minimal amount of chlorine in (about 1.5 PPM) after soaking and many times I have a residue by the morning or even the following night. It may be very light but it's still there. All info that I have read is that bacteria will use up the chlorine quickly as the chlorine is trying to kill it and if the demand is greater than the supply there will be no residue. In the year that I have had my tub, I have had only about 3 times where the next morning there wasn't any chlorine left and I hit the tub with 3 to 4.5 PPM to have a greater kill. I have also soaked in cloudy water that I hit with 3 to 4.5 PPM in the morning and it was still cloudy at night but I still had a chlorine residue (maybe 1 PPM) even though it was cloudy. My logic on that is that if after at least 480 minutes I still have chlorine then the cloudiness if caused by bacteria (and I always assume it is) is a dead cloud.
I will say that I REALLY hate soaking in a cloudy tub.
I, too, am a minimalist. I use the least amount of chems possible, between one and two tsp after normal use, along with N2 and ozone. When and if my ozonator dies, I do not think I will replace...not because I do not think it works, but because I believe it causes as many problems as it helps.
-
Vinny, I think this would be a cool experiment if we could use the data to draw any kind of useful conclusions. I really don't think we could...I think that the best way to assure that contamination is under control would be to keep your tub within the correct parameters. Obviously this science has already been done. Canada, if we really want to do this, couldn't I plate 1 ml. (on surface of agar TSA) plate and do a count at 36 hr?
I think the only value in determining if there were organisms in the tub would be to differentiate between cloudiness caused by chemical contamination (oils, body lotion) or bacteria. I am thinking however contamination by oils and lotion could contribute to bacterial growth...
OK we are thinking too much....it is far too early for this :o :o
-
Vinny, I think this would be a cool experiment if we could use the data to draw any kind of useful conclusions. I really don't think we could...I think that the best way to assure that contamination is under control would be to keep your tub within the correct parameters. Obviously this science has already been done. Canada, if we really want to do this, couldn't I plate 1 ml. (on surface of agar TSA) plate and do a count at 36 hr?
I think the only value in determining if there were organisms in the tub would be to differentiate between cloudiness caused by chemical contamination (oils, body lotion) or bacteria. I am thinking however contamination by oils and lotion could contribute to bacterial growth...
OK we are thinking too much....it is far too early for this :o :o
Boni,
I agree!
Also you use bromine and dichlor would be different. I would suspect that your tub would have very little bacteria since bacteria is constantly killing even with combined bromine.
Vinny
-
Guess we have to find a new experiment...oh darn :-?
-
Vinny, I think this would be a cool experiment if we could use the data to draw any kind of useful conclusions. I really don't think we could...I think that the best way to assure that contamination is under control would be to keep your tub within the correct parameters. Obviously this science has already been done. Canada, if we really want to do this, couldn't I plate 1 ml. (on surface of agar TSA) plate and do a count at 36 hr?
I think the only value in determining if there were organisms in the tub would be to differentiate between cloudiness caused by chemical contamination (oils, body lotion) or bacteria. I am thinking however contamination by oils and lotion could contribute to bacterial growth...
OK we are thinking too much....it is far too early for this :o :o
Boni,
I am not the guy to ask about alternatives to an HPC test. I am in charge of maintenance at the water plant, I could ask an operator but it looks like you or your husband would know better then they would. Since the disaster in Walkerton all microbial testing has been done by a 3rd party lab and I think our operators may have lost thier "edge" as far as testing is concerned. I have to agree with Vinny that it would be interesting to see the results though. Although I don't think anyone here would want to know them, 100 deg water plus bathers might lead to "yuk" :o