Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: Spiderman on September 01, 2006, 09:15:55 pm
-
Well my wife and I went to use the tub tonight and when we opened the cover, the water was very cloudy and stunk like dead bodies!! I checked and no one was laying dead on the bottom, so I knew it was the water ;) For the first couple of weeks with the tub, I followed Hot Spring's instructions and was using MPS; 1 TBS after each use and shocking with 1 1/2 tsp of dichlor once/week. About two weeks ago I noticed the water was starting to get a little cloudy. I read some posts here and most seem to be using dichlor as their daily sanitizer, so I thought I'd try that. I used dichlor for a couple of days and the water cleared up :) Two days ago, I went back to the MPS and now I have a cesspool (sp?) I shocked the crap out of it with dichlor tonight and I am hoping for the best. What else should I do to bring the water back to usable again? Also, after each time I shock it, I get nasty brown gunk around the tub where it foams up. Is this normal??
-
Spiderman,
I had very similar water conditions using the same method you described and ended up changing the water. I am sure you can keep shocking it with dichlor and get it to clear up, but from the advise I was given, it is cheaper, easier and alot quicker to drain and refill. I am now sanitizing and shocking with dichlor and will only use MPS when the CC climbs to high.
Good luck,
Jr
-
Spiderman,
Switch back to dichlor as your primary sanitizer!
I don't understand the use of MPS as your daily routine(maybe others can explain) I my opinion, MPS is an oxidizer and not a sanitizer. Dichlor used in small amounts is a effective sanitizer and in larger amounts can be used as a sanitizer. The method that everyone around here(Vermonters) is tryed and true and works quite well. As for the cloudy water you have now it should clear up in about 24 hours.
-
Spiderman,
Switch back to dichlor as your primary sanitizer!
I don't understand the use of MPS as your daily routine(maybe others can explain) I my opinion, MPS is an oxidizer and not a sanitizer. Dichlor used in small amounts is a effective sanitizer and in larger amounts can be used as a sanitizer. The method that everyone around here(Vermonters) is tryed and true and works quite well. As for the cloudy water you have now it should clear up in about 24 hours.
I agree 110%
I see that people here use MPS on a regular (daily) basis that way and it has been suggested to me to use it that way when using N2 but I'll take dichlor over MPS as a daily thing.
Use dichlor and if you shock once in a while with MPS - all should be fine!
-
Spidie,
Ever heard of EverfreshWater Care. If you'd like, send me a PM. Tell me which spa model you have, give me a fax #, or email and I'll have a custom sheet sent right over to you before the weekend's out. Let me know what you think.
-
I followed Hot Spring's instructions and was using MPS; 1 TBS after each use and shocking with 1 1/2 tsp of dichlor once/week.
I've been doing just the opposite as per the experts here recommended and have had no issues since getting the tub a month ago.
-
Yeah, it should be realy quite simple. Small chlorine doses after each use and a once a week dose of shock (mps). This will keep your water nice and clean and the weekly shock will oxidize any excess contaminents causing the chlorine to convert to inactive chloramine, or bromine to inactive bromamines. The 1 x a week shock converts them back to chlor and brom. To keep things simple here is how I instruct my customers after fill and initial balance...
After each use or last use of the day add 2-3 Tbsp. Chlor.
Once a week check your pH and alk, make what ever small adjustments as needed, and shock once a week. This will keep your water clean and inviting.
Use defoamers, enzymes and clarifiers ONLY when needed, otherwise you are overloading your water with TDS.
Relax and enjoy!
I followed Hot Spring's instructions and was using MPS; 1 TBS after each use and shocking with 1 1/2 tsp of dichlor once/week.
I've been doing just the opposite as per the experts here recommended and have had no issues since getting the tub a month ago.
-
After each use or last use of the day add 2-3 Tbsp. Chlor
I assume you mean teaspoons?
-
Nope, Tbsp. = Tablespoons tsp. = teaspoons.
After each use or last use of the day add 2-3 Tbsp. Chlor
I assume you mean teaspoons?
-
That's a lot of chlorine! :o Even in a large tub, that would be a 10+ ppm dose. The consensus seems to be that 3-5 ppm is enough, unless you are doing a shock or battling an infection. I understand the point of your post was to keep it simple, and that it is better to use too much than not enough, but IMO that sounds like too much.
-
How much chlorine does it take to maintain 3-5ppm? The point of my post, as you pointed out, was to keep things simple. However, let me go further into it. You cannot maintain 3-5 ppm with out a chlorine feeder, therefore, when adding chlorine after the use of the spa, add enough to kill all the creepy things that come off of your body and thrive in a moist warm environment. The addition of 3 tablespoons with a 3 or 4 minute off gassing is sufficient to kill all, and allow you to come back to fresh clean water, in which virtually all the chlorine has been used, and you get to soak in almost pure water. Try my method with 3 teaspoons, you water will turn on you and fast.
That's a lot of chlorine! :o Even in a large tub, that would be a 10+ ppm dose. The consensus seems to be that 3-5 ppm is enough, unless you are doing a shock or battling an infection. I understand the point of your post was to keep it simple, and that it is better to use too much than not enough, but IMO that sounds like too much.
-
How much chlorine does it take to maintain 3-5ppm? The point of my post, as you pointed out, was to keep things simple. However, let me go further into it. You cannot maintain 3-5 ppm with out a chlorine feeder, therefore, when adding chlorine after the use of the spa, add enough to kill all the creepy things that come off of your body and thrive in a moist warm environment. The addition of 3 tablespoons with a 3 or 4 minute off gassing is sufficient to kill all, and allow you to come back to fresh clean water, in which virtually all the chlorine has been used, and you get to soak in almost pure water. Try my method with 3 teaspoons, you water will turn on you and fast.
That's a lot of chlorine! :o Even in a large tub, that would be a 10+ ppm dose. The consensus seems to be that 3-5 ppm is enough, unless you are doing a shock or battling an infection. I understand the point of your post was to keep it simple, and that it is better to use too much than not enough, but IMO that sounds like too much.
We really aren't in disagreement on anything other than how much chlorine is needed to do that job. I used to use 2 tablespoons after soaking (9 ppm in my tub) and that worked fine, but I've been using a 3-5 ppm dose (2-3 tsp in my tub) for a long time, and my water doesn't turn on me. With lower doses, my CYA doesn't build up as fast and I can go 5 months between water changes using the tub on average 3 times/week. The only posts I've seen on this topic that are backed by science are the "Vermonter" system on rhtubs.com, and his findings are similar to my experience -- If you achieve enough free chlorine to kill what you leave behind in the tub, it will last 2-3 days before it needs more chlorine. Now, I do use N2 in addition to provide a cushion for missed/inadequate doses. That may help me get by with a little less chlorine, too. I see lots of posts by others using ozone instead of N2 with similar results.
p.s. I was just thinking, I keep my pH around 7.3 which allows more chlorine to be more effective than higher pH. Perhaps that explains our difference of opinion. What pH do you recommend to your customers?
-
Two years now following the freshwater system as explained by my dealer without a complaint.
N2 and ozone
Shock with 3 tablespoons of dichlor once a week with S2 oz. scale and stain the next day.
2 tablespoons of MPS before each use.
filters cleaned monthly or as needed in the dishwasher.
The only other thing I add is Ph- whenever I get a chance since my Ph and TA are always high.
The closest that I have had to a water problem was the one time I forgot to use the freshwater in-line filter on a refill (every 4 months). Had to clean the filters every couple of weeks for a while.
BTW I never measure chlorine level since it's alway 0 except after a shock.
-
How much chlorine and mps you use deends on how many people use the spa, for how long, and how often according to the gallons the spa holds. Typical directions from the chlorine (dichlor) bottle will state something like 1/2 or 1tsp/ hundred gallons as an initial dose but if that doesn't get the water into the 3-5 "ok" range then you repeat that same dosage every 15-20 minutes to get the desired outcome. I would make sure you do not overdose the spa all at once... too many chemicals apllied too quickly can cause the water to be corrosive (potentially harming your spa/equipment) or you may be having to work harder in the long run with more water changes than you need due to the saturation point being reached faster.
-
Listen children, go to www.rhtubs.com and get the Vermonter's water treatment program and follow it. Everyones' tub is a little different. Follow the Vermonter's advice and figure out how much dichlor to add to your spa after each use to bring the chlorine up to 3-5 ppm. It will be one or two teaspoons for most of us. Once a week shock with about 5x-7x the daily dose. I don't personally use MPS, but it would be OK to use it for shock instead of dichlor.
Using more dichlor than this is neither necessary, nor responisible. Chlorine is a powerful halogen and not environmentally friendly.
Regards,
Bill
-
After each use or last use of the day add 2-3 Tbsp. Chlor
Dude,
With all due respect to your knowledge as a dealer for over <please insert number here> years, your advice is spot on until this quoted statement. I use Doc's AllClear dichlor which has 62% available chlorine. Here's a statement of it's strength: "One tenth oz. (1/2 tsp.) per 500 gallons of water gives 1ppm and 1 level tbsp. Gives 6ppm of chlorine." Read the whole label here (http://www.rhtubs.com/store/sanitize.htm#acchlor). So, if I had a 500 gal spa (mine is 450), you're suggesting I add 12-18 ppm after every soak? That's like shocking (actually over-shocking) after each soak--not recommended. You talk like a chlorine residual needs to be kept in order to maintain fresh water. This is certainly true with bromine but, unlike bromine, chlorine needs no residual to be effective. Raise the ppm from 3-5...2 teaspoons is plenty (maybe 3 after Chas' brother-in-law jumps in ;)) and your water will be fresh as a daisy...at least that's how mine has been using this routine for 2+ years.
-
In addition to Vermonter's system, I recommend following Chas' law:
All new tub owners should change the water at about the end of 30 days. That is a one-time thing, from then on four months is a good interval.
But the amount of oil and other junk you give off is at a peak during the first few weeks of spa ownership. Also, the amazing amount of testing and adjusting new owners typically do in the first several weeks would make a mess out of any spa.
Water is the cheapest chemical you can add to your spa, give it a try.
;)
-
Well I just said "the heck with it" and changed the water yesterday morning. The H2O is back to crystal clear and I'm sticking with dichlor. Only took a couple hours to heat the water back up to 100 F :) Thanks for the replies. I didn't really want to keep that "zombie" water anyways.
-
I'm a little late in joining in Spiderman, but I was just about to recommend following Chas' law about newbies changing their first tub of water after 30 days (glad to see you followed this sound advice).
I'm on the dichlor bandwagon. I pretty much only use dichlor. I have a bottle of that non-chlorine shock chemical that I'll use once a month, but for the most part I use dichlor as a daily sanitizer and for my weekly shock.
I'll also recommend you keep those filters cleaned. I'm amazed at how dingy they can get.
-
After each use or last use of the day add 2-3 Tbsp. Chlor
Dude,
With all due respect to your knowledge as a dealer for over <please insert number here> years, your advice is spot on until this quoted statement. I use Doc's AllClear dichlor which has 62% available chlorine. Here's a statement of it's strength: "One tenth oz. (1/2 tsp.) per 500 gallons of water gives 1ppm and 1 level tbsp. Gives 6ppm of chlorine." Read the whole label here (http://www.rhtubs.com/store/sanitize.htm#acchlor). So, if I had a 500 gal spa (mine is 450), you're suggesting I add 12-18 ppm after every soak? That's like shocking (actually over-shocking) after each soak--not recommended. You talk like a chlorine residual needs to be kept in order to maintain fresh water. This is certainly true with bromine but, unlike bromine, chlorine needs no residual to be effective. Raise the ppm from 3-5...2 teaspoons is plenty (maybe 3 after Chas' brother-in-law jumps in ;)) and your water will be fresh as a daisy...at least that's how mine has been using this routine for 2+ years.
How can you tell how much free chlorine you are going to have without knowing how much is going to be used up? I am assuming that the dosages on the bottle are going into clean, fresh water. Depending on body chemistry, people may need to add a couple Tbsps of dichlor.
The thing I like about Wisoki's suggestion is that it pretty much guarantees a good level of chlorine when you are done. I would still add on that test strips/test kits should be used to make sure.
-
Well my wife and I went to use the tub tonight and when we opened the cover, the water was very cloudy and stunk like dead bodies!! I checked and no one was laying dead on the bottom, so I knew it was the water ;) For the first couple of weeks with the tub, I followed Hot Spring's instructions and was using MPS; 1 TBS after each use and shocking with 1 1/2 tsp of dichlor once/week. About two weeks ago I noticed the water was starting to get a little cloudy. I read some posts here and most seem to be using dichlor as their daily sanitizer, so I thought I'd try that. I used dichlor for a couple of days and the water cleared up :) Two days ago, I went back to the MPS and now I have a cesspool (sp?) I shocked the crap out of it with dichlor tonight and I am hoping for the best. What else should I do to bring the water back to usable again? Also, after each time I shock it, I get nasty brown gunk around the tub where it foams up. Is this normal??
Spidey - Your doing it 100% backwards! It's a few teaspoons AFTER every soak and MPS once a week (although the MPS is not really needed). I've had my tub over 4 years now and this method works fine. No need for MPS. Sounds like your process is simply funding your dealers next car... LOL.
-
Spidey - Your doing it 100% backwards! It's a few teaspoons AFTER every soak and MPS once a week (although the MPS is not really needed). I've had my tub over 4 years now and this method works fine. No need for MPS. Sounds like your process is simply funding your dealers next car... LOL.
The way I described it is how Hot Spring tells you to do it, but I think it's a bunch of crap. Upon further reading, I read the info/instruction booklet with my N2 cartridge and it says to add 1 TBS MPS before and after each use!! My dealer said to add 1 TBS after each use, not both before and after. At that pace, I'd be going through MPS like mad!!
-
I have a Grandee and have used the system that I was told to use by my dealer......1 T. MPS per person about 10 minutes before entering hot tub (there are times I do it afterwards and let the clean cycle run the 10 minutes)....Every Saturday I add a half capful of Dichlor (about 2 T.), an ounce of Stain and Scale Control and rinse my filters if needed. I haven't had a problem with this at all.
Peachy
-
After each use or last use of the day add 2-3 Tbsp. Chlor
Dude,
With all due respect to your knowledge as a dealer for over <please insert number here> years, your advice is spot on until this quoted statement. I use Doc's AllClear dichlor which has 62% available chlorine. Here's a statement of it's strength: "One tenth oz. (1/2 tsp.) per 500 gallons of water gives 1ppm and 1 level tbsp. Gives 6ppm of chlorine." Read the whole label here (http://www.rhtubs.com/store/sanitize.htm#acchlor). So, if I had a 500 gal spa (mine is 450), you're suggesting I add 12-18 ppm after every soak? That's like shocking (actually over-shocking) after each soak--not recommended. You talk like a chlorine residual needs to be kept in order to maintain fresh water. This is certainly true with bromine but, unlike bromine, chlorine needs no residual to be effective. Raise the ppm from 3-5...2 teaspoons is plenty (maybe 3 after Chas' brother-in-law jumps in ;)) and your water will be fresh as a daisy...at least that's how mine has been using this routine for 2+ years.
How can you tell how much free chlorine you are going to have without knowing how much is going to be used up? I am assuming that the dosages on the bottle are going into clean, fresh water. Depending on body chemistry, people may need to add a couple Tbsps of dichlor.
The thing I like about Wisoki's suggestion is that it pretty much guarantees a good level of chlorine when you are done. I would still add on that test strips/test kits should be used to make sure.
To answer your question, I assume that most of it will be used up by the next time I soak...which, for my usage, is the next day or day after that. According to Northman's FAQ found here (http://www.rhtubs.com/bbs/FAQ.htm), bringing the ppm up between 1-3 ppm (I feel it is better to shoot for 3-5 ppm) for 2 hours will take care of all the nasties. I don't think either Northman or Vermonter feel that 1-3 ppm has to be maintained constantly. Basically, they feel that a thorough mixing of dichlor in the tub resulting in chlorine readings not to be less than 1-3 (once again, I like 3-5) for 2 hours gets the job done and keeps the tub clean--clean enough to soak daily or maybe every other day without addition of dichlor. I would add dichlor every other day if no soaks were taken...but not enough to bring it up to 12-18 ppm.
Do you really think 12-18 ppm is necessary after each soak? I'm sorry but I just don't think that much chlorine is needed unless maybe the Clampet's come for a visit and bring some of their Chatooga River raftin', banjo playin' friends...you know how dirty Jethro and Ellie Mae get after 'rasslin' with the critters...
Sorry, beg to differ but 3-5 ppm for 2 hours will get the job done.
-
1 Tbsp. does not neccesarily (?sp) mean 6 ppm. The point I am trying to get at is that when you get out of your spa, there is much more bacteria in there than before you got in. You never know exactly how much and what type of bacteria, so you never know exactly how much chlorine it will take to knock the bacteria down to a safe level and then produce 3-5ppm free chlorine residual. After a while, you will start to notice that you use the same amount of chlorine each time, but that differs by the individuals using the spa.
I definitely agree with you on the 3-5ppm 2 hours after you add it. But to say that 1 Tbsp. of dichlor per 500 gallons will definitely equal 6ppm is not correct. That is why they make test strips. If you are new to owning a spa, it will be beneficial to start with a higher amount of chlorine and work your way down.
-
Two years now following the freshwater system as explained by my dealer without a complaint.
N2 and ozone
Shock with 3 tablespoons of dichlor once a week with S2 oz. scale and stain the next day.
2 tablespoons of MPS before each use.
filters cleaned monthly or as needed in the dishwasher.
The only other thing I add is Ph- whenever I get a chance since my Ph and TA are always high.
The closest that I have had to a water problem was the one time I forgot to use the freshwater in-line filter on a refill (every 4 months). Had to clean the filters every couple of weeks for a while.
BTW I never measure chlorine level since it's alway 0 except after a shock.
Not that you should change if it works for you, but if you got rid of that NatureS thingy you would have same results and save money.
-
[Not that you should change if it works for you, but if you got rid of that NatureS thingy you would have same results and save money.
I'm not a big fan of N2 with MPS, because I believe that a sanitizer (dichlor, bromine, etc) should be applied with each use. Nonetheless, IMO dropping the N2 and using MPS with only weekly applications of dichlor would be risky. Most of the week, they would be operating with no sanitizer in the tub. :o At least with N2 you are slowing the bacteria down until next dichlor shock.
Now if you would have suggested dropping the N2, using dichlor with each use, and MPS weekly....I could support that as a cost saving measure -- even though I personally use N2 as a supplement to dichlor. :)
p.s. tonyp, I'm surprised your pH is high with regular applications of MPS. Are you balancing the water at fill-up?