Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: Altazi on September 01, 2006, 03:12:42 pm
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Hello All,
I am currently shopping for a spa for my vacation home in Central Oregon, where the winter temperatures can drop to 0F and the snow can accumulate to 36" when I am not there to shovel it. I am concerned about the maintenance of the spa while I am not there, which could be as long as several weeks. I am interested in selecting a spa that requires as little maintenance as possible. What features or options can help me achieve this goal?
Worse, I am worried about what happens if the GFCI breaker trips while I am away. Full-foam or thermopane construction, either would freeze when the spa is without power for days.
I welcome any suggestions or comments regarding this issue. Also, do any of you know if there is any product that would allow me to easily monitor my spa over the Internet? If I could do this, at least I would KNOW if there was trouble, and call someone to go check it out.
Thanks in advance for your help!
Regards,
Altazi
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Awww, come on, guys! Throw me a bone here! :-/ I can't believe that I am the only person who has concerns like this? Do any of you have your spas at vacation homes, in similar climates? Do you ever worry about GFCI tripping, or power outages?
Regards,
Altazi
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I agree that you don't dare leave the tub unattended. I know that there are sensors that will hook into your phone line and monitor temp and check for moisture/flooding in a house. They can be set-up to dial you if there is a problem/and or be dialed up for a report. Don't know if they would translate to a hot tub. If you want to use the internet, how about a web cam focused on an indoor/outdoor thermometer installed on the side of the tub, with the "outdoor" probe inside the tub.
I would suspect that most people in this situation just hire a neighbor or service company to check the property on a regular basis.
By the way, if you plan to leave the tub unattended for several weeks at a time, how are you going to handle sanitation/regular maintenance?
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You could set up a remote webcam fairly cheap (assuming you're paying for broadband at the vacation home year round). Only problem is that if power goes off or internet service goes offline, so does your monitoring. Then you'll be wondering if it's a serious issue or if the power just momentarily went out. You could put everything on a 60 min UPS backup (monitoring setup - not the spa), but you still could be getting a lot of false alarms depending on how reliable your ISP is.
Maybe a local property management company could check on the place for you once a week or so? A neighbor? Nearby family member? If you don't use it year round, you might be able to work out a trade w/ a property mgmt company - they check on it weekly & give you a report & in return you let them rent it out one week a year & keep all the $ from the rental.
I don't know if it would work, but maybe run 2 aquarium heaters into it. Ones deisgned for large (100 gal) tanks. with their thermostats set at about 3/4 they'd never come on unless your water temp went below about 80 deg. They're probably not enough to keep the water hot, but should be enough to keep it above freezing at least. Again, no good for an extended power outage though.
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I would suspect that most people in this situation just hire a neighbor or service company to check the property on a regular basis.
By the way, if you plan to leave the tub unattended for several weeks at a time, how are you going to handle sanitation/regular maintenance?
Hello Reese,
I figure I will have to include neighbors in the equation, somehow. Regarding the water maintenance, this is what I am trying to figure out. Ideally, I'd like to select a tub that is inherently low-maintenance, and start from there. I imagine I could contract with a local service company, but I haven't checked that out yet.
Thanks for helping!
Altazi
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You could set up a remote webcam fairly cheap (assuming you're paying for broadband at the vacation home year round). Only problem is that if power goes off or internet service goes offline, so does your monitoring. Then you'll be wondering if it's a serious issue or if the power just momentarily went out. You could put everything on a 60 min UPS backup (monitoring setup - not the spa), but you still could be getting a lot of false alarms depending on how reliable your ISP is.
Maybe a local property management company could check on the place for you once a week or so? A neighbor? Nearby family member? If you don't use it year round, you might be able to work out a trade w/ a property mgmt company - they check on it weekly & give you a report & in return you let them rent it out one week a year & keep all the $ from the rental.
I don't know if it would work, but maybe run 2 aquarium heaters into it. Ones deisgned for large (100 gal) tanks. with their thermostats set at about 3/4 they'd never come on unless your water temp went below about 80 deg. They're probably not enough to keep the water hot, but should be enough to keep it above freezing at least. Again, no good for an extended power outage though.
Hello Badval,
I have broadband Internet installed at the vacation home, so I can work from there. (Sounds kind of oxymoronic, when I put it like that.) A webcam is a start, but I'd really like a small web server that can put up a web page detailing the power status and water temperature of the spa. What would be REALLY cool would be total remote monitoring and control of the spa via the Internet - changing pump operating schedules, etc. Anyone know of such a product? Am I the only person interested in such a thing?
Thanks for your helpful suggestions!
Regards,
Altazi
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I've not used this, but it looks cool:
http://www.smarthome.com/7005.html
It's a base station that you can connect sensors to, and it will will call you when the sensors detect pre-defined situations. Looks like they have several tempature and water sensors.
Be sure to let us know what you end up with.
-geekd
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Hello All,
Worse, I am worried about what happens if the GFCI breaker trips while I am away. Full-foam or thermopane construction, either would freeze when the spa is without power for days.
One of the nice things about a Hot Spring Spa is the split breakers. The circ pump and the heater have seperate breakers. The most common reason GFCIs trip is heater related. So, if heater GFCI tripped, circ pump would keep water moving, and the total insulation would protect the pipes.
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Regarding the water maintenance, this is what I am trying to figure out. Ideally, I'd like to select a tub that is inherently low-maintenance, and start from there.
I don't know if you have a spa at your main home, or if this will be your first, but IMO no spa is "inherently low maintenance". They all do best if someone is using and maintaining them regularly. You will find many manufacturers claim to have a low maintenance system, and if you state that as a goal, most dealers will sell to it. You certainly will hear pitches on the value of ozone, inline chem applicators and the like. The fact is most are just proprietary variations on routines available cheaper in the aftermarket. Despite dealer and manufacturer claims, none of them allow the tub to go much more than a week or two without attention. Given the sporadic use your tub will receive, and your freezing concerns, I'd stick with a basic tub and put the extra money toward hiring maintenance.
Also beware of claims of better insulation methods, better freeze protection, and the like. If your tub is without heat for more than a week in the middle of winter, it is going to be a large popsicle, regardless of brand. You already got one pitch for a dual breaker, which IMO might buy you a few hours, but if you don't have someone checking the tub, will just result in a more uniformly frozen tub by the time you get there.
One other thing to consider if your use is mostly "gone for several weeks, then at the vacation home for extended periods". You could drain and winterize the tub when you leave, and refill when you return. Perhaps a traditional redwood tub with a large propane heater is the ticket here. Or consider placing the tub in a heated room. There are great examples of spa rooms on this site. Good luck, and please share what you end up installing.
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Check out a Marquis Epic, Reward, or Destiny. They are exremely low maintenance spas. The water maintenance system can take care of itself for at least a month at a time. They have a wireless in-home monitor that comes standard. It has a power outage warning tone. You can leave the monitor at the next door neighbor's house and not worry about your spa. They are solid foam insulated and then wrapped with a low-e wrap (a radiant barrier with it's own R14 value). They have a sleep mode in which they will automatically maintain 20 degrees below your set temperature. And they are manufactured in Independence, OR.
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Altazi: You should definitely check out Marquis if you are concerned about energy efficiency and easy maintenance, those are two of the biggest things for Marquis. You would be surprised how well heat is retained if the power were to go out. A Marquis owner posted his observations about energy efficiency in a post a couple of months ago:
http://www.whatsthebest-hottub.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1140625840/0#0
If your vacation house is in the Bend/Redmond area, Marquis has a dealer called Fireside with two locations. If your primary residence is in the Salem/Portland area, you can check out a Marquis factory direct store in Tigard, Clackamas, or Salem. I work for Marquis at our Tigard location and would love to go over the spas with you if you're in the area.
Here is some more information about the things you were concerned with:
Low maintenance: http://marquisspas.com/documents/2006/Constant_Clean.pdf
Energy efficiency: http://marquisspas.com/difference_energy.asp
Monitoring the spa: http://marquisspas.com/documents/2006/SpaMonitorSheet.pdf
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Hello DPS & MarKee,
The Marquis spas are on my short list to check out. One of my old friends is a radio talk show host who does Marquis ads, and he gave me a glowing "off-the-air" report on his Marquis spa. Nothing like good word-of-mouth from someone you trust.
I will check out the links MarKee sent - thanks. My primary residence is in West Linn, so I may take you up on your offer to go over the spas. We don't have a spa at our primary residence due to the miserable freeway noise. :(
I am an engineer, with a degree in physics, so I love to learn about the details of the spa design, construction, and operation. I don't suppose you have a spa with an Ethernet connection for monitoring, do you? :) Is that wireless monitor running on 802.11g? I know, it's probably on an ISM band. . .
Regards,
Altazi
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Alan E. Sanderfoot, former editor and associate publisher of "AQUA Magazine" wrote a book titled "What Color Is Your Swimming Pool?" He has a chapter in the book that discusses pool and spa automation. The following list is what he describes as a "short list" for manufacturers producing automation products.
www.balboa-instruments.com
www.pentairpool.com
www.haywardnet.com
www.innovativepools.com
www.jandy.com
I took a quick browse through the websites and found that Innovative Pool Products LLC might have the product that fits the need you are describing. Click on "Web Enabled Touch Screen". Your tub choice may be limited to the brand that this is compatible with. Looking through the site further, it seemed that it was slanted towards pools w/built-in spas and home automation. I'd contact them to see if it would work with portable spas too.
You are right. Any length of power loss with foam or insulated cabinet will result in a large ice cube, but I would go with the insulated cabinet and probably some kind of solar powered light bulb or heat lamp placed in the cabinet to help this freeze situation out if someone couldn't get to the tub to save it before it froze. Not sure about the sun exposure there in central Oregon.
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To be honest I would just have someone check it once a week. Tell them to take a soak once or twice a week and check function. Any of the major manufacturers and there are several would be a good choice. I would use a dealer close to the cabin and not your home. If that's possible. I have had my power off on my tub here in Northern Minnesota for a week with no damage. I would not do it at -10 but I have done it at 20-30 degrees which I think is pretty standerd for Oregon aint it? I have seen HS, sundance and marquis all down in 20-30 degrees and survive for a week. At 0 and below you will need some help though and if your neighbor can't solve GFCI problem a heat source will need to be located. If no power is present a drain and a gen set will need to be aquired to winterize the tub. But seriously how long have you seen the power out in the winter? If it's a tub problem it will need to be fixed ASAP so the close dealer may be a good idea.
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Thanks to all who have responded. The Innovative Pools company has products that are close to what I would like, but are much fancier (and expensive!) than I would like. I just want a simple web server, no fancy control panels. I mostly just want to know if the spa has power and monitor the temperatures at a few different points. I definitely don't want to hack into the spa's wiring & control system. Maybe I'll take a crack at rolling my own. Ugh - work.
Checked the Marquis links and like what I saw, but I got cold feet when I read their warranty. It all looked good until I came to this section, "Performance of Warranty". The part that hit was this:
"Marquis Corp. agrees to repair any plumbing or surface defects and to repair or furnish a replacement for any factory-installed components covered under this warranty which, upon test and examination by Marquis Corp., prove defective. All materials for examination must be returned to Marquis Corp. freight prepaid."
Does this mean that if my Marquis spa had a bad heater, pump motor, control panel, etc., that I would have to ship the WHOLE SPA back to Marquis? If so, I think that's NUTS. Now, I admit that I haven't read the fine print of other manufacturer's warranties, but I certainly WILL.
Regards,
Altazi
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Altazi: A heater, control panel, or pump is something that can be fixed at your vacation house if you were to ever have a problem at no expense to you. A factory installed component is something that is not essential to run the spa, for instanced a floating remote. Most dealers will swap this out for you if you were to ever have an issue arise. If you were to ever have a problem with the spa shell surface for instance, there would be no charge to you and Marquis would swap out the spa for free with a new one. If you lived on the east coast, the dealer has the option to charge you shipping to get a new spa shipped out. Marquis is really known for honoring their warranty, unlike some companies in the industry. Marquis has the only transferrable warranty among the big manufacturers, so if you ever sell your spa or your vacation house, the remaining warranty will transfer.
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Hello All,
I am currently shopping for a spa for my vacation home in Central Oregon, where the winter temperatures can drop to 0F and the snow can accumulate to 36" when I am not there to shovel it. I am concerned about the maintenance of the spa while I am not there, which could be as long as several weeks. I am interested in selecting a spa that requires as little maintenance as possible. What features or options can help me achieve this goal?
Worse, I am worried about what happens if the GFCI breaker trips while I am away. Full-foam or thermopane construction, either would freeze when the spa is without power for days.
I welcome any suggestions or comments regarding this issue. Also, do any of you know if there is any product that would allow me to easily monitor my spa over the Internet? If I could do this, at least I would KNOW if there was trouble, and call someone to go check it out.
Thanks in advance for your help!
Regards,
Altazi
Hey Altazi! Nice to see you in here.
If you are gone for several weeks, I recommend draining and following the directions for winterizing. There are some at home monitors but threy usually have a battey life of 10 hours or so... so best thing is to have a close neighbor keep an eye out if you will be gone for a week or so. There are folks thart make a living off of caring for a spa chemically and I'm sure you could set up someone like that to check a couple of times a week while you are gone if you didn't want to winterize it. There are sanitizing systems like the "genesis" salt system that are less maintenance but I still recommend to test the water weekly no matter WHAT low-maintenance system you have.
You could be a very rich man if you design and patent a system designed to monitor and care for your spa through a computer from a different state.
Bestof luck.
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Yes I will monitor your spa for you....where did you say you are. I do several for people here.
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Hello All,
MarKee, thanks for the clarification. I'm certainly not a lawyer, but did I misread the warranty to come to the conclusion that I did? What you described certainly makes more sense to me, and keeps the Marquis products on my short list.
Amanda (Panda), thanks for the kind welcome. I don't believe you and I communicated on that OTHER forum. I admit to being surprised that I have found such little mention of the remote monitoring of spas, and disappointed at the lack of such products. Alas, someone has patented the concept of Internet spa monitoring, so anything I make myself will stay that way - mine alone. Too bad the patent-owner appears to be just sitting on the patent. Probably hoping to get rich by having someone else come along and license the rights. Lazy a$$!!!
Tman122, my vacation home is in Sunriver. It does seem like I will need to have some kind of maintenance / monitoring service. First things first, though - still stuck on deck design & spa choice.
Not sure if I want the spa sitting on a slab, with the deck built up around the spa so the entry & exit is easy - this can make getting to the spa access panel(s) problematic. I don't relish the idea of making a take-apart deck.
The alternative is to just put the spa ON the deck, and use a couple of external stairs. Access to the spa panels is a cinch, but now the deck has to support the whole spa (& me in it!)
One of the requirements in Sunriver is that the spa be surrounded with a wall that blocks visibility (of naked bathers, one assumes). This complicates things just a bit - I have to try to figure out how to put up the wall without blocking the spa delivery. I DON'T want to make a take-apart wall!
Finally, I never suspected that I would have such a bewildering array of choices of spas - manufacturers, features, etc. My head is spinning! Oh, wait, that might be the wine from last night. . . :D
Regards,
Altazi
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I have some great solid ideas for removable panels that have worked well for me.(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v605/Tman122/SummerDeck.jpg)
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Hi Tman122,
Nice deck! Is that your personal set-up? Where does the spa cover go when it's off?
I happened to see some Dimension One spas at a parking lot sale (put on by the local dealer), and saw how the cover lifter worked. It was a smooth, one-hand operation, but the cover ends up folded in half right next to the hot tub, so I need to leave space for that to happen.
I am getting ideas about tub placement - I just have to start sketching. . .
Regards,
Altazi
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There is a cover butler on the side.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v605/Tman122/Awsomw2.jpg)
Flip the cover in half and slid it onto the arms as you enter the tub.
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Very nice!
A "Cover Butler"? <sigh> So much to learn!!!!!
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You already got one pitch for a dual breaker, which IMO might buy you a few hours, but if you don't have someone checking the tub, will just result in a more uniformly frozen tub by the time you get there.
Actually, if the heater trips it's breaker, the circ pump will keep running until you shut it off. In a mild climate, that circ pump can and will heat a spa to the mid 90's and hold it there. In freezing temps, it will do what it can to slow the temp drop, and it does one more very important thing: it keeps the motor compartment warmer. Not only does it generate a small amount of heat, it is pulling the hot water through the heater and the compartment.
Of course, if you do get a long term power outage you can just drain the thing. HS has a second drain which empties all of the plumbing for you.
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Hi Tman122,
Nice deck! Is that your personal set-up? Where does the spa cover go when it's off?
I happened to see some Dimension One spas at a parking lot sale (put on by the local dealer), and saw how the cover lifter worked. It was a smooth, one-hand operation, but the cover ends up folded in half right next to the hot tub, so I need to leave space for that to happen.
I am getting ideas about tub placement - I just have to start sketching. . .
Regards,
Altazi
At the risk of sounding like a salesman, I also do a complete backyard evaluation and advise service just for this kind of thing. We plan decks, retaining walls, gazebo's and the entire back yard area to create an extension to your square footage in your house. And yes that is my deck.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v605/Tman122/DeckCorner.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v605/Tman122/Snow.jpg)
Extra insulation!!!
Wish I knew how to resize these? Term?