Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: hottbpete on September 01, 2006, 04:02:05 pm
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We are close to the kill on a Hot Tub. However, with each sales person you get different stories on the maintenance of a HT.
The big question I have is draining the tub. How often? Arctic said every 3 months and the Hot springs lady tells me 1 a year at most.
I am aware that use makes a difference.....but what do you average a year for water drains.
Thanks
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Every 3 to 4 months depending on use is the average. As a newbie expect to change it after a month - this is Chas' Law.
All newbies mess up their water and our bodies give off a lot of gunk in the first month of ownership
Another time you may need to change the water is after a party .. other peoples gunk might cloud up the tub.
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Ok thanks....That's a lot more then I thought. Is it just empty and fill or are you scrubbing? :-/
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I really never "scrub" the tub but I will scrub down residue from foaming at the water level. I also scrub the inside of the cover down once in a while with bleach and water to clean that up.
I can't speak for others (but I'm sure it's probably the same for them) but my tub never gets slimy or slippery under the water.
I've only owned my tub a little over a year and at about the 1 year mark I cleaned the tub with a product called swirl away. It seems to be some type of detergent that will clean the tub and plumbing.
Most times (except during the swirl away usage) I just dump the water and refill ... I do use chlorine and if you're planning on using a Baqua type product then that might be different.
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or, you can use the water's behavior as a guide...if it's getting harder to balance, foams up even after you've cleaned the filters, or is otherwise acting 'goofy'....drain and start over. It's touted (on this forum) as the cheapest and easiest way to fix your water woes. Mmmmmmm.....fresh water....... :o
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I have been advised to change the water after the first month or two, as the body of a person who has never used a hot tub on a regular bases tends to give up a lot more oil, than it does after a few weeks of use. Then the 3-4 month rule applies.
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Even with a good sanitizing system, there is "stuff" that gets in the water that may not make it unsanitary but may make it less pleasant to use. Detergent from your bathing suits (if you are wearing them), hair gel, deoderant, make-up, etc. can make your spa water foam or look a little murky. Drain it as often as necessary to keep the sparkle in the water. For most spa owners every 3 or 4 months works.
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We are close to the kill on a Hot Tub. However, with each sales person you get different stories on the maintenance of a HT.
As a new owner this has been the most frustrating part of the experience. Ask three different dealers for a maintenance routine on the same tub and you get three very different answers. I've gotten different answers from others on this board as well. I sincerely appreciate the help but I can't understand why this is so difficult. Look at the MPS thread this morning. Some poeple say don't use it daily, use dichlor. Others say use it after a soak, not before. Dosages per 100 gallons differ as well. And people wonder why they screw up their water?!?
Perhaps part of the problem is that apparently the maintenance varies but tub mfg and model? I have a HS Jetsetter and use MPS prior to every soak, run the cleaning cycle after I get out, shock with dichlor once a week, and use Stain & Scale once a week. Adjust PH as needed (once so far). So far, so good. My Jetsetter is an 06 model with N2 and an ozonator.
My local dealer is supposed to be one of the best in the country, but I have even gotten conflicting advice from them. I have friends that are interested in a tub but won't buy one since they get wildly conflicting information on maintenance. This is a real problem IMO for the industry.
Rant mode off. Going for a soak! ;D
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We are close to the kill on a Hot Tub. However, with each sales person you get different stories on the maintenance of a HT.
As a new owner this has been the most frustrating part of the experience. Ask three different dealers for a maintenance routine on the same tub and you get three very different answers. I've gotten different answers from others on this board as well. I sincerely appreciate the help but I can't understand why this is so difficult. Look at the MPS thread this morning. Some poeple say don't use it daily, use dichlor. Others say use it after a soak, not before. Dosages per 100 gallons differ as well. And people wonder why they screw up their water?!?
Perhaps part of the problem is that apparently the maintenance varies but tub mfg and model? I have a HS Jetsetter and use MPS prior to every soak, run the cleaning cycle after I get out, shock with dichlor once a week, and use Stain & Scale once a week. Adjust PH as needed (once so far). So far, so good. My Jetsetter is an 06 model with N2 and an ozonator.
My local dealer is supposed to be one of the best in the country, but I have even gotten conflicting advice from them. I have friends that are interested in a tub but won't buy one since they get wildly conflicting information on maintenance. This is a real problem IMO for the industry.
Rant mode off. Going for a soak! ;D
First off, different people have different experiences with their water. You also have a little tub and some of us have much larger. Having 1 person in a tub is much different than having a party with 20 people using it. If you have a party, you'll see how great your tub's water is. There are people who change their water every month or two ... it's not a big thing.
You are 1 person with a new tub - you will get into situations that you will NOT understand. I have 5 years water care experience taking care of a pool - my tub reacts very differently than my pool.
My advice is STOP your ranting, think about what is being said here and use what's best for you! MANY people are helped with the advice here - one day you may too!
Not using dichlor and soaking in a heated vessel that will double bacteria in 20 minutes is not my idea of a clean tub PERIOD!!! I don't care what you were told - MPS does NOT kill bacteria. N2 MAY kill bacteria and ozone it MAY kill the bacteria too but they haven't been proven to do anything. Chlorine, Bromine and Baqua (and whatever else associated with it) are the only true bacteria killers in a tub.
Next time towards the end of the week think about this ... on Monday morning if you had 1,000 bacteria, 24 hours later you had 256,000, 24 hours later you had 65,536,000 (That's 65 million and we're only 2 days later), double that figure every 20 minutes for the next 4 days (I'll assume you shock early on the 7th day).
It's not difficult but everyone has different needs and their water responds differently AND we all have our preverences.
Now I'm done MY ranting!
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My local dealer is supposed to be one of the best in the country
Don't you love it when somebody selling something makes a claim like that. According to who? The salesperson, the owner? HotSpring? And then you have to wonder, best at what? ::)
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My local dealer is supposed to be one of the best in the country
Don't you love it when somebody selling something makes a claim like that. According to who? The salesperson, the owner? HotSpring? And then you have to wonder, best at what? ::)
Based on local reputation and what I have been told by other HS dealers in this forum from other parts of the country.
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We are close to the kill on a Hot Tub. However, with each sales person you get different stories on the maintenance of a HT.
As a new owner this has been the most frustrating part of the experience. Ask three different dealers for a maintenance routine on the same tub and you get three very different answers. I've gotten different answers from others on this board as well. I sincerely appreciate the help but I can't understand why this is so difficult. Look at the MPS thread this morning. Some poeple say don't use it daily, use dichlor. Others say use it after a soak, not before. Dosages per 100 gallons differ as well. And people wonder why they screw up their water?!?
Perhaps part of the problem is that apparently the maintenance varies but tub mfg and model? I have a HS Jetsetter and use MPS prior to every soak, run the cleaning cycle after I get out, shock with dichlor once a week, and use Stain & Scale once a week. Adjust PH as needed (once so far). So far, so good. My Jetsetter is an 06 model with N2 and an ozonator.
My local dealer is supposed to be one of the best in the country, but I have even gotten conflicting advice from them. I have friends that are interested in a tub but won't buy one since they get wildly conflicting information on maintenance. This is a real problem IMO for the industry.
Rant mode off. Going for a soak! ;D
First off, different people have different experiences with their water. You also have a little tub and some of us have much larger. Having 1 person in a tub is much different than having a party with 20 people using it. If you have a party, you'll see how great your tub's water is. There are people who change their water every month or two ... it's not a big thing.
You are 1 person with a new tub - you will get into situations that you will NOT understand. I have 5 years water care experience taking care of a pool - my tub reacts very differently than my pool.
My advice is STOP your ranting, think about what is being said here and use what's best for you! MANY people are helped with the advice here - one day you may too!
Not using dichlor and soaking in a heated vessel that will double bacteria in 20 minutes is not my idea of a clean tub PERIOD!!! I don't care what you were told - MPS does NOT kill bacteria. N2 MAY kill bacteria and ozone it MAY kill the bacteria too but they haven't been proven to do anything. Chlorine, Bromine and Baqua (and whatever else associated with it) are the only true bacteria killers in a tub.
Next time towards the end of the week think about this ... on Monday morning if you had 1,000 bacteria, 24 hours later you had 256,000, 24 hours later you had 65,536,000 (That's 65 million and we're only 2 days later), double that figure every 20 minutes for the next 4 days (I'll assume you shock early on the 7th day).
It's not difficult but everyone has different needs and their water responds differently AND we all have our preverences.
Now I'm done MY ranting!
Wow, calm down. I was not insulting anyone, just expressing an opinion. Apparently you missed the "I sincerely appreciate the help" part of my post. Jeeze...
Any thank you for proving my point BTW. My maintenance routine for my tub is per HS and has been confirmed by Terminator and hottub.pool_boy. Yet you say it is absolutely incorrect. My point exactly!
http://www.whatsthebest-hottub.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1156530487/0
See Section D - http://www.scarritt.com/spasanitizing.htm
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Just because HS and their salespeople say it's good doesn't mean a thing. Heck the local pool dealer gave me 100% wrong advice about my pool but people still use him.
Use what you will, if it works, great. MPS is not without it's own problems and BTW I do use it too for shocking at times. I will stick with chlorine and will always advise people to stick with using sanitizer over oxidizer.
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Just because HS and their salespeople say it's good doesn't mean a thing. Heck the local pool dealer gave me 100% wrong advice about my pool but people still use him.
Use what you will, if it works, great. MPS is not without it's own problems and BTW I do use it too for shocking at times. I will stick with chlorine and will always advise people to stick with using sanitizer over oxidizer.
Well I would think that HS knows their own tubs. We'll just have to agree to disagree. Nothing wrong with that. :D
The MPS vs dichlor debate is not the issue, but it does illustrate the point. Ask 10 different "experts" for maintenance on the tub and you more than likely will get 10 difference responses (MPS vs dichlor, prior or post soak, how often to shock, amounts to add per 100 gallons, etc). And this is for the same tub with the same water - no other variables!
And this is what scares off prospective buyers. And it's too bad.
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My local dealer is supposed to be one of the best in the country
Don't you love it when somebody selling something makes a claim like that. According to who? The salesperson, the owner? HotSpring? And then you have to wonder, best at what? ::)
Based on local reputation and what I have been told by other HS dealers in this forum from other parts of the country.
::) ;D All Most of my drinking buddies say good things about me, too. 8-)
By the way, Vinny is obviously one of the good guys, a consumer helping others. He just doesn't have any reason to defend a proprietary system based on (IMO) marginal science. I'm guessing he is just frustrated because everybody wants a hassle free maintenance system that uses little or no chlorine, but then complains when it doesn't work, or dealers add their own wrinkles to address problems their customers encounter and it becomes confusing. IMO, Vinny is right, systems that rely more on oxidizers than sanitizers are risky. If you want a consistent system, based on science, not marketing fluff, the "Vermonter" system everone talks about is the way to go. Ask just about any consumer that has tried more than one approach, not somebody selling/defending the system they sell. If confusion about maintenance is the only thing keeping your friends from buying a hot tub, steer them to rhtubs.com for the info.
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By the way, Vinny is obviously one of the good guys, a consumer helping others. He just doesn't have any reason to defend a proprietary system based on (IMO) marginal science. I'm guessing he is just frustrated because everybody wants a hassle free maintenance system that uses little or no chlorine, but then complains when it doesn't work, or dealers add their own wrinkles to address problems their customers encounter and it becomes confusing. IMO, Vinny is right, systems that rely more on oxidizers than sanitizers are risky. If you want a consistent system, based on science, not marketing fluff, the "Vermonter" system everone talks about is the way to go. Ask just about any consumer that has tried more than one approach, not somebody selling/defending the system they sell. If confusion about maintenance is the only thing keeping your friends from buying a hot tub, steer them to rhtubs.com for the info.
Webini and Reese,
Webini I don't mean to pick on your chemical maintenance routine but Vinny is one of the good guys on this site and has a very good understanding of hot tub water chems. He is concerned that the use of MPS as a primary treatment offers very little in the way of a daily sanitizer.
Reese,
I thought your post was well thought out and accurate
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I agree that you can get ten different answers about water care and changing your water if you ask ten different people. I think that part of the reason why is because there sare so many variables. Not every spa professional asks all the right questions or is a studied as others about chemistry.
Some variables: gallons, number of people, how CLEAN the people are that are using the spa, how long it is used for, what chemical care has been happening, how long the filters go in between cleaning, how often the filters have been cleaned, what kind of sanitizing system is being used, how well the people caring for the spa comunicate what is done to the water... the list goes on.
I would recommend keeping track of what you are doing to the water and if numerous people are caring for the chemicals... have some kind of clipboard to let each other know what has been done. This will also help your spa professional know hwat has been happening with your spa by giving them a good guideline of the chemical/usage history when you bring in a water sample.
How often do you change your water? Good question. It depends on many of these variable factors. Some need to change it monthly, others 3 or 4 x's/year, and still others 1 time a year... it just depends.
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I would recommend keeping track of what you are doing to the water and if numerous people are caring for the chemicals... have some kind of clipboard to let each other know what has been done. This will also help your spa professional know hwat has been happening with your spa by giving them a good guideline of the chemical/usage history when you bring in a water sample.
Thats a good idea,
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Thats a good idea, [/quote]
Thanks! :-*
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This is a long thread and if I missed it, I am sorry to be repetitive. If you go to the HotSpring website you can download a copy of their owner's manual. It is probable that you could do this for any brand. If you check the owner's manual for HS you will find that they recommend 4 month intervals for water changes in most cases.
FWIW, I change my water every 2 months because it is easy to do and I like clean, fresh water. It does not seem likely that water treatment intervals would be remarkably different for different brands of hot tubs. As others have said, it is the people factor that determines these matters.
Regards,
Bill
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Well I would think that HS knows their own tubs.
It's not a question of whether HS or any other manufacturer knows their own tubs...it's a question of whether you know your own water characteristics out of the tap. You have to know your water in order to maintain your water properly. Generalizations can be made regarding water from a municipal utility (though there are some differences there as well) but well water will stand on it's own from region to region. Vermonter's regimen is an excellent starting point but cannot be strictly applied to every instance without a bit of tailoring. And, certainly, there is more than 1 way to maintain fresh water...dichlor, bromine, baqua (<adding personal remark here> ugh!) for sanitizers; dichlor and MPS for shock (buffered and unbuffered MPS); minerals (copper, silver, N2, etc.) for sanitizer support, and ozone for sanitizer/shock support (depending on who you talk to). These myriad of choices are what is so confusing.
Here are 4 rules that should apply generally:
Use the "rule of least" when adding chems to your water. Use the least amount to maintain fresh water. If you are using a product in a general, routine manner just because someone suggested it (weekly stain and scale products come to mind...I've never needed either--my water comes nicely balanced from a municipal water supply) then you may be adding to your water unnecessarily...and adding to TDS as well.
Like in horseshoes and hand gernades, close is good enough. Don't let your mind be set on getting pH, TA, CH absolutely to a certain perfect level. This would encourage over-care which drives you and the water crazy.
And, accompanying the above rule, don't worry about your water's balance more than weekly. Be sure to monitor sanitizer more frequently but forget about pH, TA, CH measures except for once a week.
And KISS. Find a routine that is simple. Once again, I highly recommend Vermonter's regimen (http://www.rhtubs.com/bbs/FAQ.htm) as a starting point.
PS: Uh-oh...I guess I got off on the wrong question. Like others, I recommend changing water every 3-4 months (I'm on a 4 month routine). I'll leave the above water chem suggestions just in case someone can get something out of 'em...sorry.
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Well I would think that HS knows their own tubs.
It's not a question of whether HS or any other manufacturer knows their own tubs...it's a question of whether you know your own water characteristics out of the tap. You have to know your water in order to maintain your water properly. Generalizations can be made regarding water from a municipal utility (though there are some differences there as well) but well water will stand on it's own from region to region. Vermonter's regimen is an excellent starting point but cannot be strictly applied to every instance without a bit of tailoring. And, certainly, there is more than 1 way to maintain fresh water...dichlor, bromine, baqua (<adding personal remark here> ugh!) for sanitizers; dichlor and MPS for shock (buffered and unbuffered MPS); minerals (copper, silver, N2, etc.) for sanitizer support, and ozone for sanitizer/shock support (depending on who you talk to). These myriad of choices are what is so confusing.
Here are 4 rules that should apply generally:
Use the "rule of least" when adding chems to your water. Use the least amount to maintain fresh water. If you are using a product in a general, routine manner just because someone suggested it (weekly stain and scale products come to mind...I've never needed either--my water comes nicely balanced from a municipal water supply) then you may be adding to your water unnecessarily...and adding to TDS as well.
Like in horseshoes and hand gernades, close is good enough. Don't let your mind be set on getting pH, TA, CH absolutely to a certain perfect level. This would encourage over-care which drives you and the water crazy.
And, accompanying the above rule, don't worry about your water's balance more than weekly. Be sure to monitor sanitizer more frequently but forget about pH, TA, CH measures except for once a week.
And KISS. Find a routine that is simple. Once again, I highly recommend Vermonter's regimen (http://www.rhtubs.com/bbs/FAQ.htm) as a starting point.
A very good post - thank you!
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By the way, Vinny is obviously one of the good guys, a consumer helping others. He just doesn't have any reason to defend a proprietary system based on (IMO) marginal science. I'm guessing he is just frustrated because everybody wants a hassle free maintenance system that uses little or no chlorine, but then complains when it doesn't work, or dealers add their own wrinkles to address problems their customers encounter and it becomes confusing. IMO, Vinny is right, systems that rely more on oxidizers than sanitizers are risky. If you want a consistent system, based on science, not marketing fluff, the "Vermonter" system everone talks about is the way to go. Ask just about any consumer that has tried more than one approach, not somebody selling/defending the system they sell. If confusion about maintenance is the only thing keeping your friends from buying a hot tub, steer them to rhtubs.com for the info.
Webini and Reese,
Webini I don't mean to pick on your chemical maintenance routine but Vinny is one of the good guys on this site and has a very good understanding of hot tub water chems. He is concerned that the use of MPS as a primary treatment offers very little in the way of a daily sanitizer.
Reese,
I thought your post was well thought out and accurate
Thanks Guys!
I do get fustrated because I can't believe that some manufacturers (HS isn't alone) will market a product that isn't proven to kill bacteria, it is proven to raise their profit level though. D1 uses a $125 N2 cartridge.
When I first got my pool I went to "pool school" to learn as much as I could about the operation ... it turned out to be a commercial for Baqua Products. I could have gotten a deal that night for $250 for the season on my Baqua products but I bought chlorine instead at Leslies for $60 for the season. I ALWAYS question what motives people have to sell a product - what I've found is some people are very honest and some only look out for their pockets. I'm a service tech in the medical industry and have heard a lot of sales presentations that were just fluff.
I try to think of both my pool and spa waters in terms of drinking water quality and that's where my geekiness comes in! I was on Doc's site as a lurker when Vermonter would post a lot there and found what he says very informative and science based, I like scientific explanations. Quite honestly, I put in a cup of dichlor before starting up my spa just in case the water from Artesian was gross. I have read too many stories of rashes and other illnesses that can happen, so I may go a little overboard.
Yes, I do screw up occasionally and hopefully I do learn from my mistakes, foaming was my hardest lesson so far - LOL. I have soaked in cloudy water after hitting the tub with chlorine with no rashes. I have also had both my boys get ear infections at the same time after dunking their heads under water ... I then realized that Vermonter's method is great for soaking but has limitations as well - although I still use it and it works well for me.
Vinny
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I have also had both my boys get ear infections at the same time after dunking their heads under water ... I then realized that Vermonter's method is great for soaking but has limitations as well - although I still use it and it works well for me.
Vinny, you bring up a point that I think merits further discussion. I think the Vermonter program works well for keeping a tub clean between uses, but may not be adequate for parties or non-routine use. As you said in another post, bacteria can multiply rapidly in hot water, and if you start at or near 0 chlorine, there is nothing to prevent that exponential growth until you are done using and treat the water.
When someone other than my wife and I are going to be using my tub, especially kids, I depart from the Vermonter regimine. I add enough chlorine to establish a 3ppm residual an hour or two before use, or if there isn't time, a MPS dose to free up what chlorine is in there, in hopes of preventing new flora from being introduced to the tub, and/or bugs moving from one user to another. During parties, I also try to add some dichlor during a lull in use, or at least some MPS every few hours.
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My routine has been to put 1 teaspoon per person, up to 3 (1 teaspoon = 1.5 PPM in my tub), in the tub after use and 1 teaspoon every other day. I am now running my ozonator 24/7 in hopes that it will keep the tub clearer longer than the 8 hours a day it was running and am trying to prolong my time that I have to put chlorine in. I know that a Del UV or CD ozonator isn't the best out there as far as producing ozone so this also may be the problem but I do plan on putting a Prozone PZ1 ozonator in the tub when the warranty expires - it supposedly puts out a heck of a lot more than a Del ... this is not what you're discussing but may have some impact on the bacteria in the tub.
Anyway, I too will put dichlor in before and during a party (3 PPM each) with a shock dose (6 PPM or more) after. I usually have it pre measured so all I have to do is to walk by, turn on the jets and dump it in; usually when people are out of the tub and eating. I haven't had too many parties though and the first time it was a mess!
As far as my boys and their friends - the rule is no dunking heads and no water in the mouth. I am lucky that both my boys have listened to me in the past and their friend usually listen. The pool is a different story as I always have at least 1 PPM (usually 3 - 5 PPM depending on the CYA in the pool) and consider it bacteria and Algea free. For some reason my tub seems to hold chlorine a little longer than other people (something I can't explain) and I sometimes have a chlorine residue (>0.5 PPM) 24 hours later even with using 1.5 PPM. My sons and their friends are probably soaking in some chlorine although not a lot, then I dose with up to 3 teaspoons and sanitize the tub.
I think if your starting out with a clean tub, you can get by with less time before (or a lower dose a couple of hours before then a higher dose). I have posted this before and actually got it from Vermonter that to get a 99% kill you need a total of 2500 of Contact Time (CT= PPM chlorine x time in minutes) but I believe that's for a heavily infected tub.
What I truely believe in is to measure the residue of the dose put in after 8 hours or overnight and if you still have chlorine residue you have disinfected the tub to a sufficient point, chlorine will be used up if there's stuff to be used up on. If not hit it with another dose of equal or more chlorine (remembering that bacteria doubles every 20 minutes) and make it as sanitized as possible. In the 1 year of ownership I have only had that happen 3 times and the second dose took care of whatever was in the tub. This is where I came up with my dose of 1.5 PPM per person and a max of 4.5 PPM if all 4 of us go in.
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I do plan on putting a Prozone PZ1 ozonator in the tub when the warranty expires - it supposedly puts out a heck of a lot more than a Del ... this is not what you're discussing but may have some impact on the bacteria in the tub.
You and I seem to be on the same page on a lot of issues, so this statement surprised me. If you take a look back at the Vermonter posts on ozone, you'll see a much better explanation than I can provide that ozone is unlikely to supplement sanitation in a hot tub application, regardless of the output of the unit. I know that there are lots of testimonials by people with years of experience that it helps with water care, but there is little scientific evidence to back that up. If anything ozone probably helps with oxidation, but at levels so low that it is unlikely to reduce sanitizer demand. I find it hard to believe that if ozone did have measurable results, manufacturers wouldn't study and publish them.
IMO, since you already have it, it is fine to use it (and given ozone's limitations in a hot-tub application, 24/7 is probably a better way to go than 8 hours/day), but before spending money on upgrading your ozone unit, I'd give N2/Frog another try if you want to supplement your dichlor regimen, despite your previous experience and lack of results. At least there is some science to back up silver's ability to suppress bacteria growth, and it is likely that it helps chlorine kill more effectively/efficiently.
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The only reason that I would buy a better ozone unit is to see if it indeed does do anything to the water. I already know mine does very little but based on what I've found the Del units put out very little ozone as well. Vermonter does not believe that ozone does much but he does use it in his tub. I agree, after doing my research on ozone I have not found any hard evidence that spa ozone does anything but people here with more knowledge than myself seem to say it does - I really am fence sitting until I can prove or disprove what it does in my tub
I have given the N2 idea a little more thought and I have finally been able to go more than 1 1/2 months during a water change. During my N2 use, I was putting 3 PPM dichlor after I soaked and I got the same results as without. I've been thinking about trying N2 again to see if maybe it was my water at the time.
The only thing I am looking for is for my water to last longer between soaks. While running my ozonator 8 hours a day I needed to put dichlor in every other day, it seems that now I can get by with every 2 days... but I haven't soaked too much during the summer.
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I know that all the respected voices here saying it does something are hard to ignore. I just wish they had some measurables to disprove the scientific issues. Until then, since my water does just fine without it, I'll stay in the skeptic column.
Perhaps when you get ready to upgrade, you should look into the Thermospas ozone system. The other thread on Thermo got me curious, so I went to their website to look around and saw that their system, complete with mixing chamber and charcoal canister to control offgassing allows you to reduce chemicals by 90%! :o ::)
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I know that all the respected voices here saying it does something are hard to ignore. I just wish they had some measurables to disprove the scientific issues. Until then, since my water does just fine without it, I'll stay in the skeptic column.
Perhaps when you get ready to upgrade, you should look into the Thermospas ozone system. The other thread on Thermo got me curious, so I went to their website to look around and saw that their system, complete with mixing chamber and charcoal canister to control offgassing allows you to reduce chemicals by 90%! :o ::)
Actually Artesian sells a mixing chamber and it was very expensive in comparison to what ozone may actually do. Del sells a mixing chamber/degassing chamber that goes for about $150 and it uses an activated charcoal canister as the the degassing media but you need to replace it once a year ... BUT I'M CHEAP! Actually if something were to work I'm not that cheap. The PZ1 unit can be bought for about $90 and I can get a single N2 cartridge on ebay for about $20.00, these are priced about what I would spend on an experiment.
What you say about ozone, I feel that way about both ozone and N2. Although there is evidence that both will work outside of the tub, I'm not too sure either does inside the tub - no proof. The only proof is that people claim that it does work ... not too scientific. I would feel better if a test can be done to see if ozone or silver ions are present ... Vermonter has all this lab equipment at his disposal.
I also believe that what works on your tub might not work on mine to the water makeup. I used to be - they don't work PERIOD but I am softening a bit as maybe they don't work in my tub. I've tried 2 different brands of weekly enzymes to help with the load and they foamed on me; you see results with N2 and I didn't see anything; there's a person on here that followed what I did and it didn't work for him; I have had chlorine lock in my tub but yet others use their tub as little as I do and they didn't have a problem and Drewstar can have a clear tub for a week and I can't - these all have to be due to the composition of the water.
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I'm pretty sure from previous posts that Vermonter has already tested ozone and N2 to the best his instruments can, at least with as much time he can justify on curiousity about his hobby. I think he also has done some in-tub tests of various routines. I believe that was the basis for his famous (on internet spa forums) dichlor routine. If I recall correctly, he found that dichlor was effective at controlling bacteria, silver was measurable and slowed bacteria down but didn't control it, and ozone in the tub was not measurable and had little effect on bacteria growth (in the tub).
As for people's different experiences, water make-up is only one of many variables. For example, use by one adult may result in a different bacteria load and amount of oxidizable material than a parent and two teenagers. Somebody who says they use their tub 3X week, may in fact only rarely get in more than twice -- 33% less use. One person may call a rounded teaspoon 1 tsp, while another may level theirs. As you know, the same chlorine dose at 7.2 pH is much more effective than one in a 7.8 pH tub. The amount of CC, TDS and CYA in the water may affect the way the chemicals work, as may application order/timing. What one person calls good water may be another's cloudy/foamy, etc. That is what makes anecdotal information hard to make sense of. :-/ I'll take Vermonter's info over that.
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I'm pretty sure from previous posts that Vermonter has already tested ozone and N2 to the best his instruments can, at least with as much time he can justify on curiousity about his hobby. I think he also has done some in-tub tests of various routines. I believe that was the basis for his famous (on internet spa forums) dichlor routine. If I recall correctly, he found that dichlor was effective at controlling bacteria, silver was measurable and slowed bacteria down but didn't control it, and ozone in the tub was not measurable and had little effect on bacteria growth (in the tub).
As for people's different experiences, water make-up is only one of many variables. For example, use by one adult may result in a different bacteria load and amount of oxidizable material than a parent and two teenagers. Somebody who says they use their tub 3X week, may in fact only rarely get in more than twice -- 33% less use. One person may call a rounded teaspoon 1 tsp, while another may level theirs. As you know, the same chlorine dose at 7.2 pH is much more effective than one in a 7.8 pH tub. The amount of CC, TDS and CYA in the water may affect the way the chemicals work, as may application order/timing. What one person calls good water may be another's cloudy/foamy, etc. That is what makes anecdotal information hard to make sense of. :-/ I'll take Vermonter's info over that.
First, I agree 100% that Vermonter's method is a great way to treat the tub. When I went into a D1 store and they were trying to sell me on the Vision system and doesn't need dichlor unless you use the tub more than 3x a week, I mentioned about dosing after use and the dealer laughed at me and that was the most ridiculous thing he ever heard ... of course that was right after him telling me that I don't need dichlor ...
Second, I believe Vermonter did say he did measure some silver ions but it was at the lowest that his instruments can go and he didn't measure ozone. My understanding about any test or measurements is that info is skewed at the top and bottom of the instrument testing range and you want to be at around 75% of the highest range your testing for (ie: 75% of say 250). He also has said he runs ozone on his tub, this is in years past post and maybe he has changed it - I didn't catch that part.
Third, when I used N2 I did expect the tub to last longer and not get cloudy but it did in 2 days with me using ozone 8 hours a day as recommended by my dealer (another person who questions ozone, she actually talked me out of the mixing chamber). The interesting thing is she recommends only the N2 cartridge and the enhanced shock once a week, I can't see how and her other customers have great water with it. My primary sanitizer was dichlor at 3 PPM per person and I believe I was using enhanced shock at the time on a weekly basis. I will say I was trying to run my tub similarly like my pool and it didn't behave too well. Part of my problem could have been a new tub and our usage pattern was different (just cleaned suits and the like) and maybe I didn't quite get the whole hot tub water routine vs pool water routine. My last water change (April to July) was the first time my water actually lasted that long and I replaced it because it was old, I was only getting 1 1 /2 months out of the water before that, so maybe I finally got it (I'll see since I'm my 1 1/2 moth mark now).
I do question any system that is expensive by nature (ozone, N2, Vision, Frog, ...) with respect to dichlor and to a lesser extent bromine (only because I have never used it). If I buy a 5 lb jug for $30 and put enough dichlor to properly sanitize my tub - why do I need anything else. I believe that these helper systems work to some extent but am I really only going to use 0.5 PPM dichlor vs 1.5 PPM - for me probably not. I did read Vermonter say that there is a cumulative effect of using more than 1 sanitizer but is it really going to make a difference in my tub using the amounts of dichlor that I use - that's the question. I have to say based on my previous experience with N2 that if my boys stuck their heads in my tub and N2 was in there they still probably would have gotten ear infections.
But that was then and this is now. I may experiment with N2 again just to see if it will make a difference. As of ozone, I do have it running 24/7 now and I will attempt to see if it does make a difference for me.
It's funny you mention people's water quality, my oldest won't go into water that doesn't measure up to his standards based on what our pool and tub water looks like - you're correct there too, not everybody's standards are the same!
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I find it hard to believe that if ozone did have measurable results, manufacturers wouldn't study and publish them.
Sorry to jump into the middle of this but ozone is measurable.
US Filter/ Wallace and Tiernan and Prominent both manufacture ozone residual analyzers used in the drinking water industry that will measure down to the low levels of a hot tub. The issue realy is to get someone to do the test. I would love to bring one home but all the alarm bells and flow pacing would be crazy and I really don't want to take my tub to work ;). The unit are worth about $5000 and I'm sure Dell or someone else can afford it, its more a question of will they?
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Sorry, if I wasn't clear. I know ozone is measurable. I was talking about the fact that to my knowledge, no one has been able to document any measurable result of ozone use in a hot-tub application.