Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: Vinny on August 19, 2006, 02:08:26 pm
-
After my ozone experiment and the N2 thread and since it's still in my mind I decided to research on-line ozonators for when my warranty expires. I am basing all my therory on todays available ozonators and I am curious if a higher output ozonator will have a different effect on my water. (read: another experiment)
It seems like the 2 most powerful SPA ozonators out there are the Jed 103 and the Prozone PZ 6. Jed produces 0.1 grams/hr and prozone produces 4 grams a day (which is about 0.16 grams an hour based on 24 hours).
Now the thoughts ...
My tub's circ pump runs at an advertized 11 GPM but I will e-mail Artesian to verify. The only aftermarker mixing degassing chamber that I have found is the Del and that needs to have it's charcoal canister replaced every year and I would have to "T" it off since my circ pump runs at a rate too high for it to be plumbed in directly.
I have read that Chas has used a 14 ' tube as a mixing chamber on a CD ozonator and I believe that a HS has a rate of 5 GPM ... does that mean that I can use a 28' (or 30') tube and it'll be OK. Will the bubbles be too big by the time it travels to the tub - I know smaller bubbles are needed to be as effective as possible? Will the tube be too long to even pull enough water to filter - I will assume it doesn't matter.
OK - what do you think!
Thanks!!
-
You know Vinny,
I would really recommend that you contact that manufacture directly...I think you will be more assured of accurate information ask for R&D...I mentioned in the thread about ozone that was going on a few days about talking to someone about CD vs UV and it was the manufactures direct R&D and I found the information to be much more in depth and really it really appeared to be unbiased just simply based on monitored testing...
-
Vinny
Are you sure you want to open up this can of worms again? :o
-
Mendo,
I must have missed that when you posted it and that is a great idea! I will do that when the time comes as I don't plan on adding any thing to my spa until the warranty is over (2 more years).
I was just thinking on how is it that my tub sees no difference in water conditions with or without ozone. I would imagine that my ozonator runs similarly the way a Marquis ozonator does since I have it running only 8 hours a day. Maybe it's because I use enough chlorine that it doesn't matter and my tub doesn't need ozone to do anything but reading that some people can get a week without treating their water has my interest peaked.
Since I'm a techie I always want to improve things ... I was talking to a coworker about making a pool solar heater and we were coming up with all sorts of "great" ideas to run it.
-
Vinny, do check with Artesian re the gpm of the circ pump. I think 11 gpm is the old circ pump. The new 48 frame pump I think is much higher. In Artesian's old brochure, it talks about a .6 amp pump at 11 gpm moving the water through the filter up to 35 times per day. In the new brochure, Artesian talks about a .7 amp pump moving the water through the filter more than 100 times a day. But it omits any reference to gpm. Please post what you find out. Thanks, Jeff
-
Vinny
Are you sure you want to open up this can of worms again? :o
I'm not looking for that can of worms but obviously ozone works but in my spa it doesn't - why?
I'm really not looking for sales dribble which that is what most of these debates become. I agree with Mendo that hopefully an ozonator company could give me specifics, I didn't think of it.
You have drinking water knowlwdge and from what I have been able to find the units that are used are vastly different than a spa's ozonator.
You inject O2, use about 6 KV, have pressurized contact chambers, reverse flow O3 mixing, monitor the amount of O3 in the water and use a degassing unit to kill any extra O3 - a spa puts out ozone,uses 30 watts, some have a mixing chamber, they all use air and dump it into a tub of hot water.
I really don't "need" an ozonator but I would like one that works if it's available. As I said to Mendo, I would like to be able to get a week of non treatment of water for those times I go away and my tub won't be attended to. I will put my ozonator on 24/7 the week that I go away but obviously I don't think too much of ozone at this point to put much faith in it.
It seems that a Del CD ozonator puts out very little ozone and I have a Del UV ozonator so it probably puts out VERY VERY little ozone ...
-
Vinny
I think the key to having ozone work in a tub is to slow the gpm through the contact chamber ,at 11gpm, I think your circ pump would be to fast. When we went through this the last time Chas posted a bit about Dell's contact chamber available for retrofits. If you were to "tee off" your circ pump with a downstream valve and slow the flow down to about 5gpm. I think you may have a good result with a CD unit in the 1mg per hour range.
Just my opinion
-
Vinny here is my post from the therad about ozone systems its now on page 2 here in the forum and it applies to what you are asking about and what I happened tp run into just a week ago....
"Well....I have a different example to post.....this week we had a customer that could not get their water to maintain its normally sparkling personality ....I tried to help them trouble shoot over the phone and finally they asked about the ozone (smart of them) I told them how to check it and it was in fact not working ( only our 3rd unit in 2 years) ....anyway we put in a new one and the water came right back.....but this post also made me dig a little deeper into the debate about ozone and UV vs CD ......the R&D person I spoke with at great length really had a view very different than most posting here and that was in their in-depth studies that the UV type actually created more ozone and had less noise than the average CD unit.....but the UV did have its own flaws which were mainly the bulb coating itself with an oil like substance that the ballast produced ...so they went solid state unit and it has proven itself to be highly efficient and reliable ......He did say a unit that I would assume is more like the high output Arctic unit does put out more ozone but they felt it becomes cost prohibtive...... "
Back to top
-
I shot off an e-mail to Artesian after JeffB said that the new brochure has the water being turned over 100 times a day that's 28 GPM by my calculations -WOW!!! :o
Del recommends that the GAC (Granulated Activated Cabon) cartridge be replaced once a year - I would hate to go into my equipment cabinet that often ... maybe just a tube venting to the outside would work. The other thing and maybe it is available though Del is they recommend a pressure regulator on that "T", now that's more than simply cutting a tube off the mazzi injector and gluing a whole new length of pipe to it along with another connector to the pump side.
But if the pump is running at this high a rate - there can't be any system that will keep the ozone in contact with the water unless a contact chamber is used.
The funny thing is I never smell ozone in my tub no matter when I open the cover. I do have one of Doc's foam blankets for the puposes of keeping the heat in the water (hopefully) and saving my cover from off gasing.
-
Hey Mendo,
Thanks for that re post ... I didn't read that thread.
I have a feeling that Del although very well known may not be the best ... it probably has the best maketing though ... sound familiar? ::) ;D
What manufacturer of ozone does Marquis supply and does it's ozone go into a seperate contact chamber?
Maybe my Del init produces so little ozone that it doesn't matter whether it's on or off. I do know that there is brown residue around the mazzi injector so there definately is ozone being produced.
I am very concerned about the damage to my headrests and cover but I guess that if it's not running 24 hours a day - the risk is minimal ... My headrewsts look great after 1 year so far but maybe that's from the lack of ozone ... the catch 22!
-
Vinny
It seems that a Del CD ozonator puts out very little ozone and I have a Del UV ozonator so it probably puts out VERY VERY little ozone ...
Vinny,
it is very interesting that most assume that the CD units put out more ozone but thats not what I was told by the manufacture nor another poster who spoke to Del ...it appears that UV types were getting a bad rap but it appears to be without merit as todays UV types "may" have passed CD units as the way to go.....I am sure many will have a different opinion but my information was from the maker...
-
Hey Mendocino
I didn't write that Vinny did ;)
I think we should look back to the Vermonters post regarding UV stlye ozonators and about the UV actually absorbing ozone. I don't want to start the whole debate over again so please lets leave it at that. The main issue in question is 1 the amount of ozone produced, 2) contact time, 3) offgasing. Once again, this is just my opinion.
Also, Vinny if you E mailed Del did you happen to ask them about providing proof of a ozone residual?
-
......He did say a unit that I would assume is more like the high output Arctic unit does put out more ozone but they felt it becomes cost prohibtive...... "
Back to top
I am not sure whether or not you are referring to the Arctic Ozone system? In any case it KICKS! I have to measure the amount of ozoneit is producing with a Flowmeter, in our Pre Delivery Inspection, just so we make sure it isn't too much!
-
......He did say a unit that I would assume is more like the high output Arctic unit does put out more ozone but they felt it becomes cost prohibtive...... "
Back to top
I am not sure whether or not you are referring to the Arctic Ozone system? In any case it KICKS! I have to measure the amount of ozoneit is producing with a Flowmeter, in our Pre Delivery Inspection, just so we make sure it isn't too much!
It could be....He mentioned that there are some high out put units but they felt they were to costly to justify them....but as Arctic makes it is available if someone may see the value in it to them.....
-
Marquis uses the Balboa Q3 ozone....
-
...
Also, Vinny if you E mailed Del did you happen to ask them about providing proof of a ozone residual?
I didn't e-mail Del but I e-mailed Artesian about their GPM of their new 240 volt pump. I agree that those factors would be crucial to be effective with contact time making the off gassing more or less depending on the flow rate of the pump supplying the water.
I'm sure all manufacturers have "proof" but I would think it's all in house data.
Stuart, thanks for the info! Does Marquis use a contact chamber since they don't use a low flow circ pump?
As for any upgraded ozone system ... How much is it worth to not use a little more chlorine or have a tub that might not get cloudy in 6 days? I think my limit may be $200, anything else it's not worth it. I can shock the tub with chlorine before and after going away and hit it with some clarifier, rinse filter and I'm done. It'll cost me $1.50 in chems max.
-
Is having an Ozonator even worth it?
If you can keep your water clear and sanatized without it, why would you even want one?
I mean for the extra cost in electricity to run, and the potential damage to cover and headrests, it doesn't make sense to me.
I may just unplug mine.
-
Is having an Ozonator even worth it?
If you can keep your water clear and sanatized without it, why would you even want one?
I mean for the extra cost in electricity to run, and the potential damage to cover and headrests, it doesn't make sense to me.
I may just unplug mine.
I don't think the cost of electricy to run an ozone system is considerable, no?
however, many folks who don't have a quality unit feel the same way as you.
Me? My system works like a charm. The Freshawter III system runs 24/7 and I am told it's piped through a the correct leaght of tubing for mixing. Bu t I agree, if you didn't purchase a quality unit, it's wasted money. However, I have that the right system is amazing and well worth it.
-
Thanks Drewster.
How do you know your system works like a charm?
Have you ever unplugged it to see if you notice a difference without it?
If it's on 24/7 I think you can figure out the electricity costs by taking amps x volts, which should equal watts. Then move the decimal over to figure out kilowatts. Once you know the kilowatts use that along with your kwh cost to figure how much per month the ozone unit is costing you to run.
It may be something like $5-6
-
Thanks Drewster.
How do you know your system works like a charm?
Have you ever unplugged it to see if you notice a difference without it?
If it's on 24/7 I think you can figure out the electricity costs by taking amps x volts, which should equal watts. Then move the decimal over to figure out kilowatts. Once you know the kilowatts use that along with your kwh cost to figure how much per month the ozone unit is costing you to run.
It may be something like $5-6
Youre welcome.
I know it works because I use it. I have great water quality, and use minimum sanitizer. In fact, in several posts throughout this forum, I've discussed it. In fact I think my statements on how much success I have been seeing with it may be one of the reasons Vinny is attempting to take a second look at Ozone units, and why some work and some don't .
But yup, granted, It's only my expereince and I'm only one person, but there have been many others that have found a properly installed and quality ozone unit is a great addition to a hot tub. My friend Spatech who I've argued with about N2, can back this up.
I've used Bromine, Dichlor, N2 and ozone. I prefer Dichlor and the Freshwater 3 ozinator.
And yes, I've turned it off and have seen dramatic resulst.
The costs for me are well worth it. The FWIII systems sanitizes my tub when I don't use it, go on vacation, or slip in my routine maitinece. I highly recoemed it.
But, yea, if you don't have a quality unit that's not doing it's job, I agree, you are probably better off spending the $5 on some dichlor.
-
Interesting...
Please post results with no ozone system running.
How long did you leave it unplugged?
What water quality issues did you experience?
Did you find you had to use more chemicals without ozone?
-
Thanks Drewster.
How do you know your system works like a charm?
Have you ever unplugged it to see if you notice a difference without it?
If it's on 24/7 I think you can figure out the electricity costs by taking amps x volts, which should equal watts. Then move the decimal over to figure out kilowatts. Once you know the kilowatts use that along with your kwh cost to figure how much per month the ozone unit is costing you to run.
It may be something like $5-6
Youre welcome.
I know it works because I use it. I have great water quality, and use minimum sanitizer. In fact, in several posts throughout this forum, I've discussed it. In fact I think my statements on how much success I have been seeing with it may be one of the reasons Vinny is attempting to take a second look at Ozone units, and why some work and some don't .
But yupo, granted, It's only my expereince and I'm only one person, but there have been many others that have found a properly installed and quality ozone unit is a great addition to a hot tub. My friend Spatech who I've argued with about N2, can back this up.
I've used Bromine, Dichlor, N2 and ozone. I prefer Dichlor and the Freshwater 3 ozinator.
And yes, I've turned it off and have seen dramatic resulst.
The costs for me are well worth it. The FWIII systems sanitizes my tub when I don't use it, go on vacation, or slip in my routine maitinece. I highly recoemed it.
But, yea, if you don't have a quality unit that's not doing it's job, I agree, you are probably better off spending the $5 on some dichlor.
Drewstar knows it works because he's used it and seen a difference. Your mileage may vary but those who've experienced a good ozone system have their results to bank on. You may ask how he can qualify that opinion but there is no hard data, you just use it and see how it works and if you're really inquisitive you may even not use it/turn it off for awhile and see if there is a difference (similar to how many of us determine whether the N2 cartridge works for us). What are these "dramatic resulst" he speaks of, well you have to be there but it's basically clearer/cleaner water and a need for less sanitizer (at least that's what I see). And I certainly agree, just having an ozone unit isn't all you're looking for, you want a good quality unit on a spa with a proper mixing chamber.
-
It was turned off for about 2 days. The water clarity went straight down the tubes. It was cloudy and hazy.
I base my snaitizer usage on what others report they use for a smilliar sized tub. I use 1 teaspoon per person, per soak. Most programs want you to dose even on off days. I do not. Many users claim that they need to dose with dichlor ever few days or they expereince haze and cloudiness. I do not. In fact many times I go for 4-6 days without opening my cover or adding a sanitizer. My water has always been great.
I know this may not be the most sceintific approach, but it's my expereince and I offer it for your consideration.
Good luck.
-
Wow I'm shocked the water quality went straight down the tubes in only two days!
Are you telling me the hot springs filtration system can't keep the water clear after only two days without Ozone?
Are you sure that by unplugging the ozone your tub is still filtering through the media?
Sorry for all the questions just trying to analyze your data. As vinny said in the subject line:
OK Techies! Lets talk Ozone
-
Wow I'm shocked the water quality went straight down the tubes in only two days!
Are you telling me the hot springs filtration system can't keep the water clear after only two days without Ozone?
Are you sure that by unplugging the ozone your tub is still filtering through the media?
Sorry for all the questions just trying to analyze your data. As vinny said in the subject line:
OK Techies! Lets talk Ozone
I think you're a bit confused. I do not have a hotsprings tub. I have a Tiger River tub, (but both are made by Watkins, so I can see how you are a bit confused). The Tiger River and Hotpsrings filtering method are significatly differerent. As you may know, HS uses a no-bypass system and employs several filters. The Tiger River filtration is more of a convential method with a 65 qaure foot pleated filter . I hope that helps you. both do use the same 03 unit, but the filtration system is signifcantly different and a valid point in observing water quality.
I do not belive the ozinnator is in line with the filter, and the ozone being on or not does not effect the water flow through the filter media. Maybe this is why you are confused? Are you confusing filtering for particulate matter confused with Ozone as an oxidizer and killing of bacteria?
I thnk you'll be hard pressed to "analyze" my data, since I haven't given you any, just anecdotal experience. but hey, knck yourself out.
Once again, I'm sorry your artesian ozone system isn't working well for you. And I'll step aside, and let all you "techies" really dive into the meaty data you provided. sorry for having gotten you off track. Mei culpa.
-
I have to agree with Drew. Even when I ran my circ / ozone for only 12 hours vs 24 hours, I see the difference even with the same Diclor and yes N2 regimen. May have been partially to do with the filter, but I imagine that the O3 has somehting to do with it as well.
But more important, it is funny that Drew is an "ultimate member". Quite the compliment!! ;D
-
I have yet to unplug my ozone to deterime it's value. I will do that and post results.
Maybe because I have a 24hr circ pump running I will see similar results as Vinny did.
Drew - How much filtering did your HS Caspian do in two days when you disabled your Ozonator?
-
I have yet to unplug my ozone to deterime it's value. I will do that and post results.
Maybe because I have a 24hr circ pump running I will see similar results as Vinny did.
Drew - How much filtering did your HS Caspian do in two days when you disabled your Ozonator?
You know, I think with that queston, you may have hit on somehting
My 03 wasn't disconected. It was placed into summer mode....redcuing the 03 and the circ pump and that's when the water went south. Hmmmmmm.
Still thought, it doesn't negate the results I'm seeing now with minimum use of a dichlor.
Hmmmm.
The aretiesan: Is it a CD or UV ozoninator?
Does the ozone run 24/7
What is your primary saniziter?
Do you run filter cycles with the main pumps, or like me have a circ pump?
-
My Artesian has a Del brand CD Ozonator.
My ozone runs a total of 4 hours a day. My circ pump runs 24/7(which I can't change)
I use dichlor and shock weekly with MPS. I also have an N2 stick.
I don't run filter cyles with the main pumps, my circ pump does the filtering and it does it 24/7.
I do notice my pumps come on for about 1 min twice a day @ 10am and 10pm. I think just to blow out the water in the lines though.
I don't have any water quality issues.
-
why do you think your ozone isn't working..or rather why are thinkning on unpluging it?
-
I don't think it isn't working.
I'm thinking on unplugging it and not using it as I'd rather save the few bucks a month and potential longer lasting cover and head rests.
-
Ya know drewstar I was beginning to like you and you go and write this ... >:( ;)
For the record, I am impressed that your tub can last 6 days without chlorine BUT I only run my ozonator for 8 hours a day. I use as much dichlor as you and I really don't have any water quality issues either. Only if I skip 2 days does my tub get cloudy.
Now the only time I have run my ozonator 24 hours is when my tub had gotten cloudy recently and I thoiught it would clear it up. So this morning I had a revelation that if I could turn off the ozone I could turn it up to 24 hours and see ... maybe that's the difference. So I put 1 teaspoon of dichlor and turned it on to 24 hours to see what will happen. I have one of Doc's foam blankets on the tub and I didn't smell any ozone after it was running about 11 hours ... so I got no off gassing. :D (JK - I really didn't smell anything but I don't have a good nose)
Sledjunkie, is your CD ozonator attached to the upgraded system or is a 2006 Artesian coming equiped with CD ozonators now?
The problem with the Artesian ozone that I see is the circ pump pumps a heck of a lot of water and it runs through the pipes in a very short period time... not at a puny 5 GPM! :P
-
I don't think it isn't working.
I'm thinking on unplugging it and not using it as I'd rather save the few bucks a month and potential longer lasting cover and head rests.
Just turn off the ozonator where you turn up or down the "filter time", that'll turn it off. The only thing is I think the line clearing cycle stops when you do this, I don't remember my tub clearing it's lines when I turned it off.
-
Mine is an 05 not an 06, and it's attached to the top of the mazzi injector valve, which is to the left of that flow switch thing.
I don't have that prozone or propure upgrade, or whatever they call it.
-
Mine is an 05 not an 06, and it's attached to the top of the mazzi injector valve, which is to the left of that flow switch thing.
I don't have that prozone or propure upgrade, or whatever they call it.
OK then, mine is an early 05 (April) Cayman and my dealer said Artesian only would put in an UV ozonator. Maybe they upped it to a CD unit as time went on.
Do you ever smell ozone? Did your "filter time" come from the factory for 2 hours every 12? My tub defalts to 6 every 12 after turning the power off but I have the lower level electronics vs the Gold and Platinum series. Very simple controls!
Have you ever tried upping the time? If you do try it, try to see if it has that ozone smell. I think the foam blanket is causing the water to not give off a lot of gas, the circ pump return port gives a line of bubbles about 1 1/2 to 2 feet long and the blanket is over that area.
As far as cost, I think probably $5.00 a month for 24 hour ozone and less for using ozone less but a CD unit uses 30 watts so 30 watts x 24 hours x 30 days = 21.6 KWH @ $0.14 = $3.024 to operate. I could live with this IF I didn't need to dose my tub on an every other day basis.
I'll see what happens with the 24hour ozone test.
-
Well, I e-mailed Prozone and they claim their PZ1 ozonator produces 8 grams of ozone a day and their PZ6 produces 4 grams a day. I didn't ask for documented proof but I'm sure it would be all in house testing...
I also found on the Del website that their CD ozonators don't put out any more ozone than their UV types - something that Mendo said.
I e-mailed Artesian about my pump speed and I need to get back to them with my serial number and I should be able to do that tonight.
I'm thinking that there can't be too many manufacturers of spa ozone units - Del, Prozone, Balboa and maybe a couple more not that well known. I would also think that any spa company that has their own name on the ozonator gets it from one of the bigger names and whatever the regular brand ozonator puts out, the private name puts out the same amount.
To be continued ...