Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: Magnus on August 02, 2006, 02:44:57 am
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Hi everyone!
I'm new to this forum and have found it very addicting, but I just have one question: Why does everyone seem to argue so much on this site?
It seems that almost every thread has people in a hissy fit over what brand is better and why the chemicals they use are the best. Granted, I understand everyone has opinions, but it seems like the reason for this site is for information, not for a playground wrestling match.
Maybe it's just the hot weather, but is this site more for dealers to argue or is it a place for people to learn and share info?
Any responses would be greatly appreciated.
thanks everyone, and I hope you all are loving your own hot tubs.
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I'd characterize it as typical of internet user groups.
(20 year internet vet)
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It's a great site for consumers to learn about the different model hot tubs and how to care for them.
It's also a site with tons of dealers who do pump their own brand. As long as you can identify/ignore these types of posts you should be all set.
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This board is way tamer than other boards I've been involved with. Best way to approach in my opinion, is to take nothing personally, and ignore topics, posts, or posters that irritate you. And don't get dragged into the petty bickering, unless you want to.
Sometimes that stuff makes life here more interesting- civilized debate is a good thing.
Learn what you can, and accept that no spa is ideal for everyone and they all have their strong and weak spots.
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re: Why all the brand bickering???
Because just a few choose to "go negative".
Instead of speaking in positive terms about their own tub or the tubs they like, they choose to impugn the quality and workmanship of other brands of tubs or even call the tubs of other posters of this forum "ugly".
But like the posts above say.....
This message board is a wonderful resource for information about general questions and help with hot tubs. There are alot of nice, helpful and very knowledgeable hot tub folks that frequent this forum.
This place is great if you ask a question about the pros and cons of hot tub features.....like waterfalls, lights, smooth or rough shell, covers, concrete pads, electric hook-ups, ect....
In my opinion this message board is awesome but it's not the best place to get information about which tub to purchase[/i]
Yeah you can listen to what everyone says they think is their choice as the world's best tub.....
BUT the best place for that is to go do it yourself.....go to dealers.....choosing a dealer is almost as important as brand choice.....study how the dealer and sales staff act.....study how they conduct their operation.....check to see how long they have been in business and how long they have carried the brand they sell......get a feel for if they will be there for you after the sale is made as far as service/warranty work.....don't make an impulsive purchase....don't be in a hurry....and wet test a bunch of tubs to see what fits your personal tastes the best.
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This board has a wide mix of dealers, store owners, shoppers and folks who own tubs. All of varying levels of knoweldge, experince, personal opinion and comunication styles.
Competing dealers and brands always joust back and fourth on their products. Some times their differences are legitimate, other times they are blown out of proportion.
As with ANY forum, you the "signal to noise" ratio can be high. It's the nature of the medium. Web forums can be great, and they can be confusing as all hell.
No single person here is an expert in all aspects of the industry and technoligy.
That's not a bad thing. However, if you come looking for a definitive answer, sometimes you'll find that a single definitive answer, across the board just doesn't exist. However if you can participate in the discussions, follow the threads, consider the source,typically you''ll find the information you need to make an informed, intelligent decision.
It's not a question and answer board per se. But more a gathering of (for the most part) like minded folks. (hot tub enthusiats).
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re: Why all the brand bickering???
Because just a few choose to "go negative".
Give it time, I'm talking long term. This place use to be big on bashing thermospa with one user and one website popping up documenting their problems. That has faded, we have had a few TS owners and even a rep pop in occasionally.
If Cal is truely a worthy product not worthy of the negative press that will fade over time. One user frequents here that feels, and probably justifyably so he got bad treatment from CAL. He is vocal about it. That will fade over time.
Just keep relating your good experiences and after you have had it a year or so, people will begin to take notice.
I've related personaly a few times, one of the most respecte dealers here in town carrys CAL, I've like the look of some models, and I have one friend who has had his for 4 years. (Thats the limit of my experience.) Maybe I'll invite him here.
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I don't see near the amount of brand bashing on this wonderfully moderated forum as I do on other sites.
HotSpring, obviously, receives a tremendous amount of trashing from the competition, as is usually the case when a company is the industry leader. Thermo and Master, justifiably, receive a lot of negative attention due to their questionable marketing practices. The roadside chop-shop thrifty scam artists get hammered occasionally. Flim Flam Man is pure comedic entertainment.
Outside of those, I just don't see that much fussing and fighting.
Terminator
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I don't see near the amount of brand bashing on this wonderfully moderated forum as I do on other sites.
There will always be bias to some degree because most here sell or own a particular brand but for the most part I think this site is good about respecting multiple brands. While Thermsospa, Cal Spas and Master's traveling road shows & fake rebates take some heat on this site, I think otherwise there is general respect for most other brands and you'll often see poeple mention 4 or 5 good brands for someone to look at if they are new and starting from scratch.
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HotSpring, obviously, receives a tremendous amount of trashing from the competition, as is usually the case when a company is the industry leader.
Terminator
Now that is what we call a "back-handed complement". It looks and sounds like a complement but in reality it's a jab. 8)
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Best way to approach in my opinion, is to take nothing personally, and ignore topics, posts, or posters that irritate you.
I agree completely!
However, there are a good number of people on this board that over-react at every PERCEIVED slight to their tub. Nobody wants to feel they were duped into buying an inferior product or admit that they sell one, so I understand the emotion.
Pointing out features that a brand may lack or touting features you TRUELY BELIEVE IN does not automatically qualify as "bashing".
My advice would be: If you hear a comment about your brand of tub that could be interpreted in a couple of ways, assume the poster meant the least offensive of those ways.
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I don't see near the amount of brand bashing on this wonderfully moderated forum as I do on other sites.
HotSpring, obviously, receives a tremendous amount of trashing from the competition, as is usually the case when a company is the industry leader. Thermo and Master, justifiably, receive a lot of negative attention due to their questionable marketing practices. The roadside chop-shop thrifty scam artists get hammered occasionally. Flim Flam Man is pure comedic entertainment.
Outside of those, I just don't see that much fussing and fighting.
Terminator
Where is the Hot Spring bashing/trashing ?....If anything I think people go out of their way to always say they are a good tub/manufacture ...I think the only thing that happens is that at times someone reminds others that there are other ways to do things BESIDES the Hot Springs way.....but to call it bashing is a bit of a stretch ....maybe I am wrong....I just never remember the product ever really gettting trashed.....
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Now that is what we call a "back-handed complement". It looks and sounds like a complement but in reality it's a jab. 8)
How so??? ???
At whom did I jabbeth?
I was completely sincere when I said HotSpring is the industry leader. That has never been in dispute.
I was completely sincere when I said HotSpring receives a tremendous amount of bashing from the competition. That's fine, it comes with the territory and is like water off a frog's butt.
I would consider a backhanded compliment to be along the lines of "That new heater HotSpring is using is fantastic! I haven't heard of a single child being made an orphan since they started using those."
???
Terminator
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Term,
I think you seem like a great guy and I admire your dedication to your product and also all the you bring to the board....but when did your product ever really get bashed.....now I know in the heat of a discussion things can get mention in a rhetorical way but when taken in context....I just never remember it really getting bashed...I have mentioned this before but I am sure most dealers here have to bite their tongues from time to time, when you are tempted to say something but you choose not to do so.... Master gets bought up but it has also been related to their sales process and not the spas themselves....I do not really see any tub here that's gets hammered just the way in which they are presented from time to time.....and I guess I should add the lack of dealer support from the manufacturer...as in wiggling out of honoring a warranty or along those lines...
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The irony is that Magnus posted to ask why there is so much arguing, and look what this thread has become. You guys just cant help yourselves. ;)
As a fairly new reader here, I'd agree that the reason for this site should be for information, not a playground wrestling match, but there will always be a bit of (hopefully gentle) arguing when you have lots of different opinions in one room. I dont think it is a negative aspect of this forum, since it implies that everyone feels comfortable having their say. I also dont think that HS gets bashed, except in a very good natured joking way. If anything, this forum has more HS folks than any other brand, so stop yer whinin! ;D
Phrase your questions carefully and accurately, and you can get a TON of good advice here.
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Are we arguing about why we argue? ;)
A: Come in.
M: Ah, Is this the right room for an argument?
A: I told you once.
M: No you haven't.
A: Yes I have.
M: When?
A: Just now.
M: No you didn't.
A: Yes I did.
M: You didn't
A: I did!
M: You didn't!
A: I'm telling you I did!
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anne,
is a discussion arguing ? .....a good conversation is one of life's great pleasures.... :D
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We are new to "Tubbing" also, got ours 28 days ago.
Found this forum after buying ours, so only have mild interest in the postings that boast of one over the other.
I don't think it will ever be settled which is better, most everyone has to make a choice based on brand/options, size, geographic location, dealer, their budget, etc., etc.,
everything unique to their own personal situation.
Who can really say... Ford is better than Chevy, or Beamer is better than Benz.
But...we have found this forum to be very informative on many subjects.
One month ago we knew virtually ZERO about hot tubs and water conditioning, now (by no means an expert), we have gained some real basic knowledge about tubs and water care.
Have posted some very basic questions and feel we have gotten some very earnest replies (thanks).
Also, have looked at the www.rhtubs.com site and have found some very good info on the Q&A message board, about chemicals, ect., that info seems to be very factual.
We really enjoy our tub, as so far it's been working well and fits our situation.
So...will continue to monitor this forum and glean whatever info we can.
That's our "blurb"... ::)
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Anne,
That is exactly the type of reasonable, level headed posts that we are trying to avoid! ;D ::)
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Who can really say... Ford is better than Chevy, or Beamer is better than Benz.
No one can!
Apparently you also can't say that a Beamer is better than a Ford, or a Benz better than a Chevy.(at least not without gettin' someone fired up) ;D
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Where is the Hot Spring bashing/trashing ....maybe I am wrong....I just never remember the product ever really gettting trashed.....
"I have to get some pictures of the Watkins stuff we come across that has that "outstanding" 5 year workmanship " ( could it possibly be any more vague) guarantee on its cabinet but excludes you know the things that actually take place in a backyard like fading, warping or discoloring that gets chalked up to "normal wear and tear" but Marquis covers against for a full 7 years..."
"You would want it maybe because they are a multi million dollar marketing machine. When you carry Hot Spring you also get state of the art brainwashing, I mean sales training, you get great showroom materials, and you get sales leads supplied to you by the factory that have about an 18% closing rate. Dont let the fact that the spa may not be comfortable or have enough jets. Its a Hot Spring! People will buy it just for the name."
"It surprises me however, that your water quality will go south in one day, must be a testamonial to the quality of Hot Springs no by pass filtration." (This jab in regards to a Tiger River Spa, which does not have 100% No-bypass filtration)
"Nothing like clarification and finding out Hot Spring has their shells made in Mexico to kill a thread."(HotSpring shells are not made in Mexico)
These were just a few quick ones I found.
I'm not saying it's coming from you, Mendo. You do your best to remain the voice of neutrality.
Terminator
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re: I was completely sincere when I said HotSpring receives a tremendous amount of bashing from the competition.
I think you (like me) at first misunderstood what Term is saying.
At first I was like "he cant be saying HS gets bashed in here?".
I believe he is saying HS gets alot of bashing, but he does not mean on this message board, he means out in the real world of hot tub sales.
Sure there may be a few HS "slights" in here, but the difference is there are 500 positives to every negative, but like with my CalSpas it's almost 100% negative. Huge difference when you get 99% positive vs. almost nothing but negative comments from people that don't even own a CalSpas tub.
Isn't that correct Term?
Because anyone can easily see that this is an extremely "Hot Spring Friendly" forum.
And rightfully so....Hot Spring appears to be a great brand and an industry leader as you say.
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"I have to get some pictures of the Watkins stuff we come across that has that "outstanding" 5 year workmanship " ( could it possibly be any more vague) guarantee on its cabinet but excludes you know the things that actually take place in a backyard like fading, warping or discoloring that gets chalked up to "normal wear and tear" but Marquis covers against for a full 7 years..."
"You would want it maybe because they are a multi million dollar marketing machine. When you carry Hot Spring you also get state of the art brainwashing, I mean sales training, you get great showroom materials, and you get sales leads supplied to you by the factory that have about an 18% closing rate. Dont let the fact that the spa may not be comfortable or have enough jets. Its a Hot Spring! People will buy it just for the name."
"It surprises me however, that your water quality will go south in one day, must be a testamonial to the quality of Hot Springs no by pass filtration." (This jab in regards to a Tiger River Spa, which does not have 100% No-bypass filtration)
"Nothing like clarification and finding out Hot Spring has their shells made in Mexico to kill a thread."(HotSpring shells are not made in Mexico)
These were just a few quick ones I found.
I'm not saying it's coming from you, Mendo. You do your best to remain the voice of neutrality.
Terminator
Term perhaps I am wrong but all those things were said in the heat of a debate if you will about products and warranty's and the like....and I think in defense of things that were thrown out by others.....Do not get me wrong in the heat of discussion we may all loosen our tongue's a bit but I think when taken in the total context its not bashing but more like rebutting things that were also said.......but again maybe thats just the way I see it.....I will again say that I admire your dedication to your product along with people like Chas, Spa Happy, Hottub man, Steve, Spaman and others....I am sure we all have a long list as to why we feel ours really is the best but I think at the end of the day....most of us would respect each other enough to chalk it up to business and our believes in what we all represent and that we could still sit down and enjoy a beer....
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Hymbaw we long ago determined that the Spider Man avatar was gay (not that theres anything wrong with that) its just every time I see it my "gaydar" goes off. ;D
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No one can!
Apparently you also can't say that a Beamer is better than a Ford, or a Benz better than a Chevy.(at least not without gettin' someone fired up) ;D
Well actually, anyone can.
"BMW is better than Ford"- There, I just said it.
Saying it, however, doesn't make it true!
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Are we arguing about why we argue? ;)
M: Ah, Is this the right room for an argument?
A: No, it's getting hit on the head lessons in here!
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I think everything around here would be much more agreeable for everyone if when talking about hot tubs everyone starts by saying- repeat after me-
"It's not a HotSpring, but..."
Is that really so difficult?
;)
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A: No, it's getting hit on the head lessons in here!
Next, you'll be telling me my parrot's just fine. ;)
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Well actually, anyone can.
"BMW is better than Ford"- There, I just said it.
Saying it, however, doesn't make it true!
And speaking from experience, I can easily dissagree (Ford F150).
I aint towing the jet skis with the BMW.
The camper wont fit on the BMW, no how no way.
The BMW only seats two. Tough to take my kid and his friends paint balling. AND NO FREAKIN WAY would I allow them in the BMW after a day of that (By the way, the owners manual actually says "no one can ride in the trunk"...in TWO places!).
On the flip side.........
Ever try picking up chicks in a Ford truck?
No way would the Ford have gone 150 MPH out in the middle of no where Nevada.
The only thing the Ford will beat in a race is a Chevy.
The 10 hour drive to the Aqua show in Vegas is only 6 hours in the BMW (and a LOT more fun).
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Quite honestly, many of these jabs and arguments often open the door to good information. You just have to sort through some of the nastiness...For me the "Where to put he ciric pump" stands out. Not anything negative about any one product, but something that evolved to personal shots because of a concept disagreement.
Term, I have seen you take some of those Hot Springs shots and turn them into an opportunity to show the quality of your tubs..So if you look at things from that perspective, it's all good.
I do feel for Zep and Windsurfdog, who only hear negative things .. they love their tubs...and I give them lots of credit for hanging around here. My neighbor loves his tub from Lowes...I guess the negativity prevails
when facts get clouded with lots of opinion...and second hand information.
Just for the record, my cousin loves his Cal Spa on the beach, it is not the beautiful rock cabinet, but it suits their needs and looks great at the beach house. And my friends, who bought their Down East under lots of pressure at a Master Spa show, are equally as satisfied.
The neighbor with the Lowes tub just replaced a pump, the tub is 6 years old...so that's not too bad. And he uses his tub EVERY DAY ...
Now lets all quit the bickering and play nice....Mom says so >:(
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Hymbaw we long ago determined that the Spider Man avatar was gay (not that theres anything wrong with that) its just every time I see it my "gaydar" goes off. ;D
Spidey is actually doing the Napolean Dynamite dance. We all know that Napolean is into chicks. NOw, about Aquaman suggestively shaking his Speedo at me.........................
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I knew that was coming!!!!!!!!!!! ;)
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(http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g198/hymbaw/gay-spider-man.gif) + (http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b51/cristcabin/1752555.gif) = ??????
Dare we ask?
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what is this "Broke back" super hero's .....
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simplify things a moment...
Dodge
Chevy
Ford
.....
Now....if you consider the age old argument on who produces the best truck, it'll all come clear. ;)
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And speaking from experience, I can easily dissagree (Ford F150).
I aint towing the jet skis with the BMW.
The camper wont fit on the BMW, no how no way.
The BMW only seats two. Tough to take my kid and his friends paint balling. AND NO FREAKIN WAY would I allow them in the BMW after a day of that (By the way, the owners manual actually says "no one can ride in the trunk"...in TWO places!).
On the flip side.........
Ever try picking up chicks in a Ford truck?
No way would the Ford have gone 150 MPH out in the middle of no where Nevada.
The only thing the Ford will beat in a race is a Chevy.
The 10 hour drive to the Aqua show in Vegas is only 6 hours in the BMW (and a LOT more fun).
The answer is the new GL450 Mercedes-Benz sport-ute. It's a Benz with a 7,500 lb towing capacity!
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(http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g198/hymbaw/gay-spider-man.gif) + (http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b51/cristcabin/1752555.gif) = ??????
Dare we ask?
(http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g198/hymbaw/dancingsuperheroes.gif)
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The answer is the new GL450 Mercedes-Benz sport-ute. It's a Benz with a 7,500 lb towing capacity!
... and the question, Alex, is "What is the latest overpriced yuppie-mobile on the market".
At least I think it's overpriced because I just shopped for vehicles, wrote down all their specs and used a spreadsheet and a Magic 8-ball to tell me which were good buys.
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All we need now is a dancing spa fairy.....
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The answer is the new GL450 Mercedes-Benz sport-ute. It's a Benz with a 7,500 lb towing capacity!
Perhaps you don't understand ;D We've got a paint ball place near us that's outdoors in a natural forest. Some 40+ acres. It's open every weekend. EVERY weekend. Some of the best fun to be had there is when it's lightly raining. 1, the mud makes it much easier to slide under a log for protection. 2, due to the fire hazard being nonexistent, smoke grenades ARE allowed during those times.
Even after hosing the kids off I'm apprehensive of allowing them in the truck........A Mercedes? Oh I think NOT. Not sure I'd want to drive a Mercedes through Baja Mexico either ;)
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Did somebody call?
I do like to dance....
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Give 'em a run for their money, fairy...
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Anything but that dancing baby that went around a few years back.
That was really creepy.
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OK I'll answer the question posted but will start my post with...
IMO the reason things can turn into arguments quickly between dealers is this....
We don't go up against each other on this forum when pitching spas in our store, however we compete everyyday with other local dealers that use brand bashing to sell spas. I don't call the local Sundance dealer and yell at her when a person tells me she said this or that about my brand. But it gets to me, it gets to all of us.
So when we feel like a dealer here is bashing the spa we sell, we vent our agression back through our keyboard. I've said things on this forum that I'm not proud of as I'm sure most dealers here have. I've also grown quite fond of some of the dealers here and think of them as friends.
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I thought the dancing spidey icon was around long before Napolean dynamite came out?
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Are you saying that Napoleon was doing the Spidey dance?
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How so??? ???
At whom did I jabbeth?
I was completely sincere when I said HotSpring is the industry leader. That has never been in dispute.
I was completely sincere when I said HotSpring receives a tremendous amount of bashing from the competition. That's fine, it comes with the territory and is like water off a frog's butt.
I would consider a backhanded compliment to be along the lines of "That new heater HotSpring is using is fantastic! I haven't heard of a single child being made an orphan since they started using those."
???
Terminator
As Mendo said ( twice), your sincerity is never in question. I say again, I sold HS for 20 years. I know the deal, and all we are saying....is give peace a chance. oops sorry.... is that the smugness is not always flattering. Trying to paint HS as being treated unfairly is crazy.
HS is one of the best selling if not THE best selling. True
HS has THE best marketing program. No doubt.
HS is very good at spinning negatives of its features into positives. Absolutely. as they should. ( key note here is that when HS does it its OK, but when someone else does it they are dismissed with a "yeah, whatever")
HS is very good at training it's dealers. Without a question.
HS is the best spa. no. That is subjective and different for each consumer each time.
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Are you saying that Napoleon was doing the Spidey dance?
?
No. You said he was doing the dance when you wrote:
"Spidey is actually doing the Napolean Dynamite dance. We all know that Napolean is into chicks. NOw, about Aquaman suggestively shaking his Speedo at me........................."
I'm not a ND fan. just knew that dancing spidey logo was around before that movie even came out.
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This thread has gone off track.
I originally responded to Magnus' post in which he found there to be a lot of bickering over what brand is better and whose chemical regimen is the best.
My post stated that I just don't see that much arguing on here as compared to other spa forums. I stated that HotSpring receives a lot of trashing from the competition, which comes with the territory, and that's fine. I RELISH it as it opens up an opportunity to smite disinformation with my robot.
But I damn sure ain't whining about it....I find it to be very informative in the grand scheme of things as well as great fun.
My sole intent was to state that I believe this board is very well moderated compared to others and I think this is a fun and well rounded online community. I certainly have no hostile feelings towards most of you, never have. :)
That's all.
Your friend,
Terminator
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You are right. I feel a dead horse approaching. ;)
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I went with Jacuzzi because I love going against the grain and they are rarely mentioned here except by a couple of overdefensive dealers of Jacuzzi brands!!! ;D
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I went with Jacuzzi because I love going against the grain and they are rarely mentioned here except by a couple of overdefensive dealers of Jacuzzi brands!!! ;D
I think they make a very nice looking tub - great style.
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Hmm, whoever could you be talking about ::)
I went with Jacuzzi because I love going against the grain and they are rarely mentioned here except by a couple of overdefensive dealers of Jacuzzi brands!!! ;D
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Did I miss something? What bickering?
I haven't perceived any discussions as bickering.
I think it's all about perception, but that's just me.
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A: No, it's getting hit on the head lessons in here!
Next, you'll be telling me my parrot's just fine. ;)
oh shut your festeringgob you twit! your kind really makes me puke! you vaccuous, coffin nosed malodorous pervert!!!!
oh wait...... hit over the head lessons you say....... and here I thought it was abuse.....
oh well... carry on......nothing to see here.....
BTW...your parrot IS fine. he's just pining for the fiords.
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it is kinda funny though..... on the current page of questions, nearly all the responses are less than 10 each, BUT this topic is at 55 and going.....
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A: No, it's getting hit on the head lessons in here!
Next, you'll be telling me my parrot's just fine. ;)
oh shut your festeringgob you twit! your kind really makes me puke! you vaccuous, coffin nosed malodorous pervert!!!!
oh wait...... hit over the head lessons you say....... and here I thought it was abuse.....
oh well... carry on......nothing to see here.....
BTW...your parrot IS fine. he's just pining for the fiords.
But what is the air speed velocity of an unladen swallow? ::)
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But what is the air speed velocity of an unladen swallow? ::)
What do you mean? An African or European swallow?
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why..... african or european??
i hear the european sparrow is quite strong, and with a bit of string 2 sparrows could carry coconuts north for the winter.....
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What? A string held between the dorsal guiding feathers?