Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: Vinny on July 21, 2006, 10:00:45 pm
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Well it's been about a week and this is what I've found.
My water with turning the ozonator off stayed pretty good. Maybe it was a slightly clearer with the ozonator but it may be my imagination.
3 nights ago I went in with my youngest and after soaking I put in the equivilent about 2 PPM (1 teaspoon and a little more) to see how the tub reacted without my usual 1 teaspoon per person.
This morning the tub was cloudy (missed yesterday with my every other day 1 teaspoon) and I hit it with 4 1/2 PPM. Came home from work and the tub was still cloudy so I hit it with another 4 1/2 PPM and MPS to burn up whatever (bacteria I'm sure) and disinfect the tub. I think the combo of low sanitizer to begin with and missing a day did this as I remember in the past 1 day does make a difference.
Since it was still cloudy after 8 hours of filtration I decided to put on the ozonator to run 24 hours to see if that'll clear up the tub ... I will report on more tommorrow.
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You'll be shocked at how little a difference the ozonator actually makes. There's a reason they're largely optional.
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You'll be shocked at how little a difference the ozonator actually makes. Â There's a reason they're largely optional.
Tell us more girraffe. You don't think ozone does much? I wish someone would run a formalized study and document the results. It shouldn't be that difficult.
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Tell us more girraffe. You don't think ozone does much? I wish someone would run a formalized study and document the results. It shouldn't be that difficult.
What do you think I'm doing ... I do wear a lab coat over my bathing suit ... The nerve of some people! ;)
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A few years ago (5 or 6) we had a run of ozonators failing on our customer's spas. The design was changed and they are extremely reliable for the past 4 or 5 years. The point is that we knew when the ozonators failed because our customers started having water quality problems. They would call or come in the store complaining that their normally crystal-clear water was getting cloudy and funky and they had not changed anything about their maintenance. We would have them check their ozonator, to find that it needed to be replaced. With the new ozonator they went right back to having crystal clear water, reliably, with the same water maintenance we had taught them when their spas were new.
So, you can't tell me that the ozonator had little effect. At least not on the Marquis Spas that we sell.
I know that there are other methods for maintaining high water quality, and that they could have used more chemical sanitizers and achieved clear water, but with the technology available why should they?
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You'll be shocked at how little a difference the ozonator actually makes. There's a reason they're largely optional.
It is my opinion they are largely optional because UL would not put their stamp of approval on them as a factory installed option.
UL would not approve them because of off-gasing.
I realize that many have switched to ETL, but the process hasn't changed for most manufacturers, make it ozone ready and sell the device optionally and have the dealer install.
For those that dont know, UL and ETL are underwriters that place a safety stamp of approval on hot tubs for the manufacturers. There are others, but UL and ETL service most of the industry.
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I'm not saying that the ozone does nothing, but it's far from a necessity. I've had several floor models that never had an ozonator on them and were still as crystal clear as the ones that do have them. Ozonators just give the homeowner a little leway if they don't keep up on their chemicals as well as they should.
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I'm not saying that the ozone does nothing, but it's far from a necessity. I've had several floor models that never had an ozonator on them and were still as crystal clear as the ones that do have them. Ozonators just give the homeowner a little leway if they don't keep up on their chemicals as well as they should.
Big difference, these are FLOOR models. They are not getting regular use, therefore they should stay clear.
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I use them. ;D
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And I've had few complaints from people who opted out of getting the ozonator.
This includes anything from a 130 gallon Solana to a 500 gallon Landmark/Grandee/Vista. It all boils down to how you treat your spa. I have a customer with a Vista and a pool, and he can't keep either clean (even with ozone) until he comes back in and we go round and round with him again.
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Marquis' ozone system does pass UL. Every Marquis Spa has factory installed ozone as part of the Constant Clean system.
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Big difference, these are FLOOR models. They are not getting regular use, therefore they should stay clear.
I work far harder to keep my floor models clear than my spa at home.
If you had any number of people come by and stick their hands/arms in front of jets - often with the lotion or sanitizer making obvious trails as they move about from jet to jet - I think you would have the same trouble.
Also, when I DO have somebody wet test a floor model, they almost always foam it up and/or oil it up.
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Marquis' ozone system does pass UL. Every Marquis Spa has factory installed ozone as part of the Constant Clean system.
Does everything have to turn into a sales pitch?
Sure, I can name another that is UL approved and 2 that are ETL approved factory intsalled...I am sure there are others...sales people, chime in with your brand....NOW
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Well the ozonator ran for about 15 hours in my tub and quite frankly it didn't do much. Yes my tub was a little clearer but it could also be attributed to my circ pump running at Artesian's stated 11 GPM.
From my observation ON MY TUB I believe ozone works very lttle. My water during this test was 3 months old and maybe this has something to do with it.
I truely think that if you use the correct chemical routine for your usage then ozone really doesn't contribute much. Actually after writing this having ozone running for 15 hours didn't contribute much either.
With running ozone only 10 hours a day, I've never used very little chlorine - usually 1.5 PPM per person, I very rarely had high combined chlorine and whenever someome would go in with a freshly washed bathing suit I would get foam.
Without running ozone - I seem to get the same results erxcept that during the week I couldn't measure combined chlorine since my youngest went in with his friends and I had to hit the tub with MPS to get rid of the foam. Maybe it's because my usage pattern is light.
The ONLY thing I noticed is that on my tub it seems that when you choose to stop the ozone it stops the tub from clearing out the lines - that I didn't like but this isn't the function of the ozonator.
So for me as I fill up with fresh water ... I'm going to knock down the ozone time to 2 hours a day so my pumps can kick on, keep my chemical routine the same and if my water tells that I need to up the ozone time I will report back to you.
As a side note ... I agree 100% with HotTubMan - WHY DOES EVERY THREAD HAVE TO BE A SALES PITCH WITH SOME OF YOU PROFESSIONALS ... I think it's tub envy! Now go outside and stroke, er I mean wax you shiny car ... ;D
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I hope that Vinny's results don't lead to lynchings of several prominent salespeople...
Ozone is a wonderful thing, but I said before and I'll say it again, it isn't necessary. It's great for use with chlorine to keep the amount of chloramines down. It's great for killing bacteria if you have a large amount of people using the spa and your residual of sanitizer is depleted.
But it is not and never will be a magical cure-all. Glad this gave you some answers, Vinny. What's your next experiment?
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Glad this gave you some answers, Vinny. What's your next experiment?
I don't know but I'm sure SOMETHING will eventually pop into my head!
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Vinny
I was always under the impression that ozonators( UV or CD) did nothing for the appearance of the water. Ozone is used to "kill" pathogens and bacteria that come in contact with the path of ozone released in the form of bubbles from a jet located in the footwell.
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However your experiment is very interesting
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Vinny
I was always under the impression that ozonators( UV or CD) did nothing for the appearance of the water. Ozone is used to "kill" pathogens and bacteria that come in contact with the path of ozone released in the form of bubbles from a jet located in the footwell.
Ozone is a sanitizer and oxidizer. It will destoy anything in it's path including your spa cover and headrests.
When ozone is introduced in drinking water which by the way that ozone system is much different from a spas - it will clear up turbidity along with killing pathogens.
Go to an ozone manufacturers website (Del is probably a good one - they had lots of information on there) and see what the "benefits" of ozone are.
Filtering is definately a way to clear up the tub but introducing an oxidizer (high levels of chlorine, MPS, or ozone) should facilitate the clearing. Now my tub did have old water in it, 3 months old, so that may have been a factor.
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When I bought my tub, I couldn't really make sense of ozone. I got so much conflicting information. So the fact that Marquis offered it standard helped my decision to buy a Marquis tub. Obvioulsy they thought it was a positive thing and taking away that decision was a plus.
I don't think DPS comment was a sales pitch, just a fact pure and simple ;) Doesn't Hot Springs now also offer ozone standard?
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Yes. My Vanguard came with it.
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If it helps even a little bit I would certainly prefer to have it. I ran my first tub of water for 4 months with moderate use and only using chlorine after each use and a chlorine shock about twice a week. Left the tub for over 2 weeks on vacation during the third month where it got no treatment at all (or use of course) with N2 and a 24 hr circ pump with 24 hr ozone and the water remained crystal clear.
Maybe it would have done so without the ozone but I am happy to keep it on and keep my care requirements to a minimum. If the ozone is helping with that it is certainly worth it to me!
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Vinny
In the drinking water industry ozone is not considered a effective way to remove turbidity.
Turbidity meters(measuring NTU's) are installed before and after the filters. Particle counters are generally used on raw water and plant effluent.
Ozone is a very powerful disinfectant and oxidizer however it has next to no lasting residual. Ozone has started to gain widespread acceptance in north america because of its ability to destroy cyptosporidium(a cyst) and giardia. It affects the cell structure of the cyst (weakens the outside wall) and the allows the chlorine residual to kill the pathogen or bacteria. Its great that you took the time to test your tub with the ozone on and off, but it would have very little effect on turbidity or cloudyness of the water. There have been many studies done on this, with results favoring both side of the philosophical arguement, If you want you can check the AWWA' s and other drinking water websites and you'll see both sides. I was surprised to see someone use the term "turbidity" and look forward to your responce(I love a good debate)
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Before putting a deposit on my tub, I did as much research on the internet as I could on everything about tubs including ozone. It facinated me reading the yes it works, no it don't (along with the other aspects being argued this way).
I do not have a backgound in water mangement but I have an Engineering background and I repair medical equipment so I have stayed in touch with technical info.
The research that I did led me to a couple of water processing ozone manufacturers (the big ones - not the ones for pools and spas) and it was there that I thought I read about ozones effects on tubidity. Unfortunately over the year I have lost them due to things happening to my computer. The only thing that I have now is a 1999 guide from the EPA that states some reasearchers believe ozone MAY have an effect on turbidity before filtering (I think I got that right). I would include that document here but it's a PDF file and I don't see where I could attach it here.
As far as my tub and the effect of ozone affecting it's cloudiness - I believe that it was due to bacteria and if the ozone is doing it's job (and maybe I don't fully understand what's the oxidize portion of ozone) it should have disintergrated all of the bacteria - dead or alive to the point of the water being clear. It is my understanding that any oxidizing/sanitizing agent - ozone, chlorine or bromine (I think it oxidizes) should burn off all organic wastes to the point of water being clear. I have been able in the past to put chlorine in the tub and have my tub clear up in 12 hours and be crystal clear in 24. One thing that I didn't use this time because I wanted to see if it cleared up and I was going to dump the water out anyway was clarifier. This certainly would have made the tub clear up.
A side note ... the believers here always say how their tubs are clearer with ozone running vs when it's not (broken or disconnected). It seems that the general thought is that ozone can make your tub clearer - maybe thius is where I got it from.
I can't argue anything that I really have no concrete info available to prove or disprove my point. BUT my belief is that a spa's ozonator does not do the job that a water treatment ozonator does by virtue of it's operating environment and I believe the effect on a spa's water is minimal.
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Ozone is a sanitizer and oxidizer. It will destoy anything in it's path including your spa cover and headrests.
So it destroys the headrests and cover? This is the first time I'd heard that one. So is it good or bad?
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Ozone is good. As long as the system isn't off-gassing extreme amounts of ozone.
When there is off-gassing and the cover is closed there will eventually be damage to headrests, the underside of the cover, etc.
My experience with ozone and off-gassing goes back to the late '80's Sundance spas.
My most recent experience with ozone in spas is with Marquis Spas. HotTubMan will say that this is a sales pitch - But, with these spas there is no measurable off-gassing (that's why they pass U.L.) and I have seen no damage to the underside of the spa covers. Marquis spas don't have padded headrests, but I would assume spas with them would be OK if their ozone systems didn't off-gas above the surface.
Another benefit of the ozone is that it reactivates bromine if it is present in the water.
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Hey vinny,
Thanks for posting your results. I was suprised that you didn't find too much of a difference, as my limited exp. lead me to believe my 03 unit was a signiificant contributer.
Vinny, you said for the first 3 days the water was ok. Did folks use the tub during this time, or was it just idle and not used?
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I'm a little confused here. How do you know it has little or no effect by just looking at the water?
From my own experience with a private well, most of the things that you can see are harmless(like iron/magenese/sulfur). It's the things you can't see that you should worry about (arsenic/VOC's/Radon)
Is the only purpose of an ozonator to keep the water clear? I thought it killed bacteria.
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Vinny
Don't get me wrong our tub has ozone, I believe in it.
Ozone does oxidize some of the particles in water but not all. What it does do very effectively is kill bacteria and cysts in your tub water(YUK). The effect on turbidity is limited because the cell structure is still present, dead but still there. This is the arguement that all the AWWA/OWWA studies are hashing out. The dead but not gone seems ok to me, I'll just drain the tub when the TDS starts to climb.
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No one has mentioned the health effects on hot tub users.(lungs)
Has this gone away with improvements in ozonators?
A search of the EPA produced a nice article on ozone (albeit ozone from air cleaners) . Here is a short excerpt:
When inhaled, ozone can damage the lungs (see - "Ozone and Your Health" - www.epa.gov/airnow/brochure.html). Relatively low amounts can cause chest pain, coughing, shortness of breath, and, throat irritation. People vary widely in their susceptibility to ozone. Healthy people, as well as those with respiratory difficulty, can experience breathing problems when exposed to ozone. .... health effects may become more damaging and recovery less certain at higher levels or from longer exposures (US EPA, 1996a, 1996b).
Anyone know of health studies for hot tub ozonators, not issued by ozone generator or hot tub manufacturers? I would be interested.
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tubbyB, that is what U.L. is concerned with. They aren't concerned with how long your pillows last. They test for ozone off gassing with a tent over the top of the spa to trap and measure ozone.
They are trying to ensure that bathers in a U.L. listed spa aren't going to be sitting in the spa breathing ozone.
The number of spas that can pass this is extremely small. Most ozonators, and particularly corona discharge ozonators (CD) will continue to be after-market installed for this reason.
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Its also why most ozonators only run during a filter cycle
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I work far harder to keep my floor models clear than my spa at home.
If you had any number of people come by and stick their hands/arms in front of jets - often with the lotion or sanitizer making obvious trails as they move about from jet to jet - I think you would have the same trouble.
Also, when I DO have somebody wet test a floor model, they almost always foam it up and/or oil it up.
Why does it foam up? And what do you do about it?
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Thanks DPS and In_Canada_eh.
Would you know if the SD Optima is one of those UL listed tubs? Or where I could find out?
cheers
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The Sundance Optima comes factory "ready" for an ozone generator. I do not believe they are UL approved for having them installed at the factory.
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Hey vinny,
Thanks for posting your results. I was suprised that you didn't find too much of a difference, as my limited exp. lead me to believe my 03 unit was a signiificant contributer.
Vinny, you said for the first 3 days the water was ok. Did folks use the tub during this time, or was it just idle and not used?
Sorry this response is a little late - my computer monitor went down.
My tub was being used about 3 times that week with the water clear ... what happened is the last time my son and myself went in and I put the equivilent of 2 PPM chlorine into the tub, usually I put 1 teaspoon per person AND I missed a day. From my past experience, I need to put chlorine in the tub every other day or it'll get cloudy ( ie: use tub and dose on Sun night, put 1 teaspoon in on Tues ...) and I missed a day.
I believe everyone's water does behave differently - people swear by N2 and ozone and my water didn't respond to N2 and the ozone didn't affect the water too much, I think it had a little effect but not a lot.
Actually I was surprized to see that after my tub clouded up that the chlorine, MPS and ozone didn't clear it up. As I said in a previous post earlier in the thread, I have had it clear up with chlorine, I don't think I added clarifier all the time in the past (Sea Klear is a recent (6 month) addition to my chems) when the tub cleared up.
The one thing I do want to add here is that my ozonator is a UV not CD unit ... maybe that could be why as well.
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Thanks Vinny.
The UV unit, I am lead to belive, produces signifcantly less ozone than the CD units. Perhaps this cold be a significant point?
I do agree with you that everyone's water is different.
I have simmiliar expereinces with the N2 and don't care for it.
I am still a bit confused. do you add dichlor every few days even if you use the tub or not?
(I ask, as lately, I've seen a few post of folks saying they add dichlor every few days even when they don't use it, or thier water clouds up.). I found this unusual, as that is not my expericence. I can for about a week without using the tub and just having the CD ozinator running (24 x 7) with no problems. I don't know if that's normal for the majority of us or am I an exception?
I was surprised you had a UV ozinator, as I didn't think they were being put into tubs anymore. I though everyone switched over to CD. What years is your tub?
Thanks.
:)
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Ozonators are worthless unless the spa is built correctly to use the ozone (most do not build the spa properly). The spa has to have a contact chamber or it will be useless. I am amazed how many ozonators are sold/installed on spas without a contact chamber.
If a dealer or manufacturer is selling/installing ozonators without an contact chamber they are crooks or stupid. Either way you are being stroked!
Gary
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The UV unit, I am lead to belive, produces signifcantly less ozone than the CD units.
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UV produces no ozone whatso ever it is a ultra-violet light and is only a secondary treatment
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UV produces no ozone whatso ever it is a ultra-violet light and is only a secondary treatment
There are UV light bacteria killers that are installed in furnaces and I was under the impression that an UV ozonator is a little different ... from what I've read, UV can produce ozone and my mazzi injector does have the brown tell tale sign that UV is being produced. I am a little confused by the above statement as most spa ozonator companies sell both types.
drewstar, I do add dichlor every other day when I don't soak. If I soak on a Sunday, I have to add dichlor on a Tues morning, Thurs morning ... or my tub gets cloudy. I have had great success with this for about 8 months now.
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Vinny
Ozone is a gas created by high voltage electrical current and oxygen. UV sterilizers use ultra-violet light to effect the DNA of the bugs, this stops them from reproducing. UV is a excellent sterilizer but it is not ozone. Niether one is any better than the other thier just different. Once again its a dead but not gone thing.
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OK, I now know your in the water treatment business (I had an idea though) and I'm not trying to be a know-it-all but this is from a website.
QUESTION: HOW IS OZONE PRODUCED?
ANSWER: Ozone can be produced artificially according the same principle as it occurs in nature, which means by UV light (ozone layer) or via corona-discharge (high voltages, thunderstorm). In both methods the connection between the oxygen molecules is broken up. Consequently oxygen radicals are produced, which connect with the oxygen molecule to O3 (ozone). For the production of ozone, corona discharge is used more because of the greater advantages of this method. Advantages are the lower costs for ozone production (more cost-efficient) and the greater durability of the system. For the feed inlet ambient air can be used as well as pure oxygen. For pure oxygen, oxygen generators can be used to concentrate oxygen out of air. When pure oxygen is used a higher concentration of ozone can be produced.
As I said all my research was web based and it still is so what's the deal ... I understand that a CD ozonator produces ozone the way you stated but there's some "proof" the UV produces ozone.
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Vinny,
I got to admit that I am alittle baffled by your web quote, not to say its wrong though. In my experience, the only way ozone can be created is by current and oxygen. If you think about it, UV after all is just a lamp(very simplified) and it has no high current exchange with the surrounding air. Yes you caught me, I have been in the drinking water industry for 4 1/2 years, but I don't have any books or information at home to look up your web quote. I will dig into things on Monday when I have stuff on hand. Somehow I'll bill the time to some one or call it training ;D ;D. As I said on the other post on ozone, I am not a HOT TUB WATER expert, stuff happens way to fast, but I will get the right info together and respond. If you want to know whats comimg out of you tap ask me, if you want to know about your Hot Tub water you, Chas, Doc and Mendocino seam to be alot more educated than I.
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What I believe I've read before is that UV can break the O2 molecule and and turns an adjacent O2 into O3. I don't know too much about this chemical bond breaking ... As for your knowlege, I think we ARE trying for the holy grail of hot tub water being as clean as drinking water ... at least I know I am! ;)
At least I don't have to deal with fish poop in my tub water!! :D
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At least I don't have to deal with fish poop in my tub water!! :D
Oh its alot more than just the fish poop ;D ;D
I will look up the info on UV creating ozone so I can respond correctly
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Why does it foam up? And what do you do about it?
It foams up because most of the wet testers have recently laundered their suits, or they wear a T shirt over the suit. Sometimes they will drop the corner of a towell in the water, and sometimes they have hand sanitizer or other foam-inducing junk on their hands. Most of the time they seem to have all of the above.
I add Defoamer - Liesure Time Foam Down - and then rinse the filters lightly a couple hours later. If that doesn't do it, I change the water.
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I posted about this somewhere - but I'll repeat it here...
Some of you are using the term 'UV' but I don't think you fully understand what it is.
First of all, UV simply stands for 'UltraViolet,' and it is a type of light. But it is used for two very different kinds of water treatment in pools and spas.
An UV ozone generator is a simple device: a very strong UV lamp is put into a container, and air is moved past it. That air leaves the container as Ozone, and is injected into the water in question.
A completely different item would be an UV sterilizer - called by many different names - which exposes the WATER to the UV light.
The former is a type of ozone generator, the latter is a type of sterilizer which does not create ozone.
I don't know of any spa makers who put UV sanitizers on, though some put Corona Discharge Ozonators.
(http://www.deltauv.com/graphix/all.e.gif)
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Chas,
Can you post a web site for the manufacturer. I can,t understand how ozone can be created by an Ultra-violet lamp with out the presence of voltage exceeding the 220 the tub run on. Its just goes against every thing I have been taught in the past
Thank you in advance
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Chas,
Can you post a web site for the manufacturer. I can,t understand how ozone can be created by an Ultra-violet lamp with out the presence of voltage exceeding the 220 the tub run on. Its just goes against every thing I have been taught in the past
Thank you in advance
You bet.
Start with this link: http://www.delozone.com/index.html
Take a look around - this company makes stuff for spas, pools, large and small, and water systems.
This company is another one making simlar systems. They still offer a couple of UV units, but tons of CD systems up to large machines. PZ1, PZ3 & PZ6 are UV units.
http://www.prozonepools.com/
JED makes some of the lowest-cost spa units. They have a CD unit for OEM use that sells for a hundred bucks. They also have some UV units. Look under the link for "Spa King UV ozone generators."
http://www.jedengineering.com/corona_discharge.htm