Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: wetone on June 17, 2006, 12:24:35 pm
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There’s been a number of debates about filtering and circ pumps so out of curiosity we did an experiment with two different manufactures tubs side by side in our store. (we sell both brands)
The store is on well water, iron and heavy sulphur, water is brown with a heavy rotten egg smell, can barley see the bottom of a fresh filled tub.
Both tubs around 400 gallons. Fill temp 55F
Tub #1, with a 24-hour circ pump and 24 ozone. Pump 1 set to filter 3 hours every 12 hours. 2 – 75 sq/ft filters.
Tub #2, no circ pump, pump 1 set to filter 3 hours every 12 hours with ozone, 1 – 75 sq/ft filter.
Both tubs filled up and started at same time, same start up chemicals in both, they both ran through the 3-hour filter cycle on start up.
Both tubs were set to heat to 80.
On tub #1 the main pump turned of after the filter cycle, leaving the circ pump to heat the water.
Tub #2’s main pump continued to run on low speed till it reached 80 degrees then turn off, total run time 4 hours 10 minutes including the 3 hour filter time.
The test results after 4 hours and 10 minutes, tub #2 water was crystal clear, #1 water was clean (brown color gone) but not clear.
24 hours later, tub #1 water was still not 100% cleared up, still a bit hazy.
To make sure that something wasn’t missed on tub #1, we did the entire test over with 2 different models this time, the results, exactly the same as first round.
The results are the opposite of what we expected.
The models used for this experiment were, #1, Dimension One Chairman II, #2, Coleman X80 Premium.
The Dimension One with the 24 hour ozone and circ pump is supposed to clean up quicker then the Coleman with no circ pump and just ozone during filter cycles, why the difference?
Why does one tub clean up so much faster then the other?
Any ideas?
John
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The results are the opposite of what we expected. Why does one tub clean up so much faster then the other?
Any ideas? John
John, this is very interesting, thanks for taking time. To a certain extent, you are comparing apples to oranges: one of your tubs is running a large jet pump on low speed for four hours, while the other one got it's initial 3 hour run but then switched to the low-flow circ pump.
I don't know the exact plumbing schematics of these two tubs, but you also have one vs. two filters, and we have no way of knowing how clean the filters were to start with.
Keep in mind that tubs with bypass arrangements (and this is where the arguing usually starts) are VERY sensitive to the condition of the filter. If the filter is coated with dirt, or even a thin film of oil, the water will simply enter the other opening. As the filter gets dirtier, there is less filtering going on.
I would love to have you put a no-bypass tub next to a bypass tub and run the jets for the same length of time with your brown water.
By the way: does your water run cleaner after it has been running awhile? I'm asking about the supply water: do you get more crud at first and then less after it has been running for awhile? This could also affect the amount of stuff in each tub. The one you fill first may have more than the second one.
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The answer is simple Hi Flow filtering or more water turnover in shorter time or less water turn over but filtering 24 hours consistently .....if you are talking about your "standard" circ pump around 6-8 GPM you will turn the water over in that 400 gallon tub about 24 times in a day but with the Hi Flow system you will turn it over about 75 times in the day....some people like the idea of 24 hours of ozone....I know our water is always crystal clear on our floor we use a Hi Flow system.....but I am sure the both work fine.
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I don't know perhaps I should not comment here......BUT.....there are many good folks on this board who believe as we should in the product we represent....and while there are several makers who over the years have earned their good reputions..... still among those makers some will choose to build a product that is different from the others....and one can endlessly argue why one way is better than the other but for both sides there are real advantages and some disadvantages to each way.....at the end of the day all your better makers will give you a spa that will keep your water hot, clean and do so at a reasonable cost to run each month and should you have a problem they will stand behind your spa.....Forgive me if this does not belong in this thread but after reading Chas's post it just made me think of the differences and believes of what is the better way and remind me that there are several ways that work.
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Try the same experiment with water already at desired temp. The only reason you got the extra filtration in the coleman is because it was heating water.
So if you are saying that no circ pump will clean the water faster at start up, I agree. What about the rest of the year?
I would love to see the experiment done with a tub with a "real" circ pump (35 gpm). A Sundance for instance! ;D
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John I've had similar results between the Coleman 471 and the Jacuzzi 355 that we have on our floor as well. Did you use a first filter on the Coleman?
I've also noticed that the Coleman will heat up on a fresh fill faster than the Jacuzzi due to the high flow jet pump connected to the heater vs a circ. pump.
To me this isn't a big issue as both spas will run about the same to heat once they're up to temp and running under similar situations.
Good information, thanks for sharing.
Spahappy :D
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Try the same experiment with water already at desired temp. The only reason you got the extra filtration in the coleman is because it was heating water.
So if you are saying that no circ pump will clean the water faster at start up, I agree. What about the rest of the year?
I would love to see the experiment done with a tub with a "real" circ pump (35 gpm). A Sundance for instance! ;D
lol....wow its good to look at the diffrences... that real circ pump on the Sundance are they also still running the larger pumps during the day in addition to that real pump and if so WHY? that is is something that is newer right? I understand that it will not be around long as with the current system there is no chance of it passing the energy standards that are going to be required here in the very near future.
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I would love to see the experiment done with a tub with a "real" circ pump (35 gpm). A Sundance for instance! ;D
Will try this as soon as the Sundance line arrives at the new store coming up.. late July early Aug if all goes well, will post the results ;D
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no way of knowing how clean the filters were to start with.
New filters in both...
By the way: does your water run cleaner after it has been running awhile?
Can run it 2 min or 8 hours no change.
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It is the turnover ratio that matters. The higher turnover ratio spa will have a quicker clean-up time. If a tub can have a high turnover ratio AND a low operating cost - that would be the kind of tub to get.
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Isn't everybody missing the other meaning behind the circ pump, energy effiecency. While it is true that the larger pump will clean up the water faster the true test is to compare results of water chemical and energy used over a longer period of time . The results should favour the circ pump. The two diferent methods
1- a large amount of water over 2hour filter cycle
2-a small amount of water over 24 hours
Both will probally equal the same amount of water filtered
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lol....wow its good to look at the diffrences... that real circ pump on the Sundance are they also still running the larger pumps during the day in addition to that real pump and if so WHY? that is is something that is newer right? I understand that it will not be around long as with the current system there is no chance of it passing the energy standards that are going to be required here in the very near future.
The high flow circ pumps on the upper end Sundance spas do all the filtering. The main pumps are for therapy only. This differs from the older style Sundance system that used a low flow circ pump with the two speed therapy pump number one that also filtered.
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The high flow circ pumps on the upper end Sundance spas do all the filtering. The main pumps are for therapy only. This differs from the older style Sundance system that used a low flow circ pump with the two speed therapy pump number one that also filtered.
That was my question and it has been my understanding that they do still run the bigger pumps....What ever the answer is I think all makers are going to being tweaking their system somewhat to meet the new energy standards...I know most of Marquis units have passed what the anticipated requirements will be but a few models need some minor adjustments.
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The high flow circ pumps on the upper end Sundance spas do all the filtering. The main pumps are for therapy only. This differs from the older style Sundance system that used a low flow circ pump with the two speed therapy pump number one that also filtered.
So you're saying that the jet pumps don't come on at all during filtration... not even when the spa defaults back to factory programing?
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So you're saying that the jet pumps don't come on at all during filtration... not even when the spa defaults back to factory programing?
That was my understanding that they do still run the larger pumps...
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The jet pumps come on only to introduce newly sanitized water into the plumbing. No filtration is occuring.(in the 880 Series)
Lets assume you don't use your tub for a week or two.
On some other circ pump tubs the water in the plumbing just sits there, festering with bacteria, until you turn on the jets. (Spewing that festering mass of bacteria right into your lap!)
Eww!
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You guys still don't understand what and where a circ pump is supposed to be used???
I'm sorry, couldn't resist.
When I was searching for my spa, (Coleman 480), I called around to many Coleman dealers, trying to find one that also carried another line.
This one guy had HS and Coleman, and I asked him point blank, which one was better at keeping the water clean, he didn't hesitate, Coleman.
GO COLEMAN! GO THERMOPANE! GO IN THE TRASH CAN CIRC PUMP!!
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I am with the crowd of "Filtering consists of the amount of water being moved through the filter media. or, turnover rates. (as well as circulation, ie how mch different water is being brought through the filter?)
In the discussions about these two tubs, this has been brought up, but can anyone do the actual math? given the pumps, (the speeds and capcity),
1) how much water did each tub turn over?
2) what time frame did these tubs turn the water over
3) observations of the water quality.
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The Sundance 880 Series filters 50,400 gallons per day!
As MC hammer would say......"you can't touch this!!!!"
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That was my understanding that they do still run the larger pumps...
My Beachcomber has the larger circ pump, it runs 24/7 and that is the factory default. The other 2 pumps never come on except for therapy.
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On the factory settings, Marquis Spas filter 24,000 gallons per day, but can be set for as much as 76,000 gallons in 24 hours if necessary. I don't know why you would ever need that much circulation. My Epic at home filters about 29,000 gallons per day and my water is always crystal clear. I have had spas that only filtered 6000-7000 gallons per day and can definately see a huge difference between turning the water over 60-65 times a day vs. turning it over only 12-15 times a day.
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In my experiment the Coleman turned over 22,500 gallons in 4 hours 10 min. single 75 sq/ft filter. The D1 turned over 18,450 gallons. 2 - 75sq/ft filters
So there is quite the difference in the turn over... how-ever, after examining both models plumbing configuration, Coleman has a 5lb check valve on the filter side which with a normal clean filter should not open on low,(no bypass) It also draws water from the top and a foot well intake that is plumbed to the filter housing (before the filter)... 22,500 gallons 100% filtered.
After closely examining the D1, it has a y plumbed in the intake to the main filter pump, water skimmed off the top goes through the filter, water drawn from the foot well intake goes directly to the pump bypassing the filter, hence 18,450 gallons turned over and at best 50% filtered.
D1’s circ pump has it’s own filter plumbed directly to the circ pump, I guess they relay on the circ for most of the water cleaning with the 24 hour ozone.
2 respected brand name manufactures, 2 different ways of filtering, with normal city water and normal use, both systems keep the water clean and comfort should take front seat in the buying decision.
I've had a D1 Chairman II in my back yard for 2 years now and no water care prblems to todate :)
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I did always wonder why D-1's circ pump is not connect to the skimmer. Seems to me that would make more sense.
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I must say that the water in my 880 Sundance tub has always been Crystal clear. The water has been in the tub 5 months now with no signs of any problems at all. I guess I could change it but the TDS is still low. Now we do take care in how clean we are before jumping in. I don't go mow, then jump in. :o I consider my tub very easy to maintain.
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Don't know were it fits in the debate but have been happy with my low flow 24 hour circ pump with 24 hr ozone and n2. Have been away from home almost 3 weeks and just left the tub running but turned down the temp to 80. Temp dropped only to 95 (Tub is under the deck with roof overhead, not in direct sun). More importantly the water remained crystal clear. The jet pumps automatically come on about 30 minutes twice a day to "flush the lines" and it seemed to do the trick. Turnd the temp back up to 100 and enjoyed a soak the night of my return with no problems.
Water still in good shape 3+ months out from initial fill after 3 weeks of no treatment while out of town. Plan to do a refill soon only because it will soon be 4 months but don't really seem to be having any water issues that are forcing my hand at present.
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Water still in good shape 3+ months out from initial fill after 3 weeks of no treatment while out of town. Plan to do a refill soon only because it will soon be 4 months but don't really seem to be having any water issues that are forcing my hand at present.
Thats impressive for a newbie, it was my third fill or so before I could make those kinds of claims. The fact that your water looks good is a real tribute, but go ahead and change again sometime soon. Chances are, while still looking good, you might have forgotten just how new water looks and feels. When 3 or 4 month old water does go bad, it goes bad in a hurry, so changing now on your terms will prevent you from having to change when other things, like a sudden trip away from home. I think you said you live southern US, but I always try to change the water in late July so that it is due again in late October, which is the latest time of the year when I can count on still using my outside hoses.
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Thats impressive for a newbie, it was my third fill or so before I could make those kinds of claims. The fact that your water looks good is a real tribute, but go ahead and change again sometime soon. Chances are, while still looking good, you might have forgotten just how new water looks and feels. When 3 or 4 month old water does go bad, it goes bad in a hurry, so changing now on your terms will prevent you from having to change when other things, like a sudden trip away from home. I think you said you live southern US, but I always try to change the water in late July so that it is due again in late October, which is the latest time of the year when I can count on still using my outside hoses.
I am indeed in the south and use of hose not an issue during the winter. But getting wet when it is cold IS an issue! So I will probably take your advice and change soon so that I can avoid the really cold weather and get the next change in before the holidays. Have some guests in town over the holidays and would be nice to have fresh water in the tub at that time anyway!
Atlanta area seems to have pretty decent water right from the tap and that has no doubt made it easier but I have also deliberately tried to avoid "overmedicating" the tub as we newbies are apparently prone to do!