Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: 96SC on May 29, 2006, 01:40:20 pm
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I stopped by our Caldera dealer to look at spas (first time buyer), they showed us a Moorea. I then stopped in here and did a search on the Moorea. Our local place wanted $ 8195.00 for the spa, then $750 for a spa cover, lift, GFCI panel with breakers, delivery, chemicals and steps. My search on the Moorea had prices ranging from $6995 to $7500 which I am sure did not include all the extras. What does everyone think? I realize there are regional differences but this seems a bit of a stretch.
I was also told you need to change the water every 4 months to get rid of bacteria (I have never seen mentioned in here). I asked about ozonaters to kill bacteria, I was told even with ozone you still change every 4 months. So is ozone necessary?
Then the subject of wet test came up, we were offered to take our shoes off and step into and sit in the Moorea since, 'you will get the same feeling whether there is water in it or not'. Opinions?
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definately need to change your water every 4 months.
ozone is good to have, it makes it much easier to take care of your water and you use less chemicals by havinga an ozonator.
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I was recently quoted $7000.00 for the Moorea cover, coverlifter, steps and some supplies. The dealer may be pulling your chain because all the Caldera models include the GFCI with breakers, it's listed in their brochure.
It does make a difference wet test vs. dry. I am new to this board also, first tub too. One thing I learned from this board is do research and find a dealer you like/trust.
We bought the Geneva which is not due in for another two weeks. The dealer told us to expect to drain the tub twice a year, never mentioned every four months.
Good luck.
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Then the subject of wet test came up, we were offered to take our shoes off and step into and sit in the Moorea since, 'you will get the same feeling whether there is water in it or not'. Opinions?
opinion: Bullcr@p? I think any dealer telling you not to bother to wet test is just out for a quick sale, and is not really helping you AT ALL. What if you asked to schedule a wet test?
As I understand it, water changes ever 3-6 month are not really needed to clear bacteria- you should be doing that daily with sanitizer. You dont have 4 months worth of bacteria to clear out at a water change, you have 4 months worth of extra "stuff" added to the water over 4 months that eventually makes the water hard to balance and not nice and fresh. You'll see posts form people here who go 6 weeks to 6 months between draining.
I was quote about $6700-6900 for a Moorea with delivery, steps, etc....That was early 2006. As tmknies said, the GFCI is always included. Dont know how much regional differences account for that, but I'd be wary of someone making it sound like the GFCI is "extra" and then not being clear of the benefit of a wet test.
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I was also told you need to change the water every 4 months to get rid of bacteria (I have never seen mentioned in here). I asked about ozonaters to kill bacteria, I was told even with ozone you still change every 4 months. So is ozone necessary?
Ozone helps you keep your tub free of bacteria with far less chlorine. In fact, if you have the Monarch system which includes an ozonator and a Nature2 silver-ion cartridge, you can soak chlorine free by just adding MPS once a week and shocking with dichlor once a month. That dichlor is chlorine, but it goes away in a day or two so the rest of the time you are soaking chlorine free.
As far as needing to change the water "to get rid of bacteria," I think there was a breakdown in communication some how.
You use a sanitizer: ozone and silver ions, chlorine, bromine or whatever you choose to get rid of bacteria. That happens on a daily basis, or each time you use it, or constantly if you have an ozone system with a constant circulation pump.
The water changes three times a year - are to freshen things up, lower the TDS and other stuff which accumulates in the water and simply makes it harder to keep it looking sharp and clean.
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I stopped by our Caldera dealer to look at spas (first time buyer), they showed us a Moorea. I then stopped in here and did a search on the Moorea. Our local place wanted $ 8195.00 for the spa, then $750 for a spa cover, lift, GFCI panel with breakers, delivery, chemicals and steps. My search on the Moorea had prices ranging from $6995 to $7500 which I am sure did not include all the extras. What does everyone think? I realize there are regional differences but this seems a bit of a stretch.
I have had many folks walk in and quote a price that they wanted me to match or beat. I told them I don't do verbal price matching because they are just thin air.
Get it in writing. For example, I have a strong feeling that the first quote you mentioned actually INCLUDED the items you metioned. But if you don't have it in writing, you may have simply not heard it right, or not gotten the right impression, etc. Same with the other prices you see here on the board: it is easy for some folks to round up and forget sales tax while others round down but include it - and fourteen other combinations.
If you can get two bids in writing - use the fax or email if you don't want to drive all over the world - put them side-by-side and check them carefully. Are they offering the same exact cover lift, of is one throwing in a cheapy?
Same type of step? Same type of ozone system (assuming the tub doesn't come with one, the value of this item can vary by hundreds of dollars).
So don't shop prices unless you see it all in writing, or you may end up with the same spa but way cheap add-ons.
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Chas,
It's in writing.
Package price $750.00
Spa Price $8195.00
This particular spa is 'Ozone ready'.
I thought something was 'goofy' with the GFCI panel as part of the package, as I saw it listed on the 'Caldera Moorea' dispaly card, too.
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II was also told you need to change the water every 4 months to get rid of bacteria (I have never seen mentioned in here). I asked about ozonaters to kill bacteria, I was told even with ozone you still change every 4 months. So is ozone necessary?
Some people who never excercise don't have heart attacks, Is excercise neccesary? (Mainly kidding) But changing water never hurts and eventually there are only so many solids you can add to water till it becomes mud. Bacteria isn't the only reason to change water.
Then the subject of wet test came up, we were offered to take our shoes off and step into and sit in the Moorea since, 'you will get the same feeling whether there is water in it or not'. Opinions?
That may be the biggest line of bulldefication I have ever heard. This sounds like the line of a lazy sales person. While you may pick a great tub that you will love without wet testing, that line about getting the same feeling is just plain stupid. Please feel free to print this out and show it to them ;D
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I think any dealer telling you not to bother to wet test is just out for a quick sale,
I think you are exactly right. Well, at least this one. If someone wants to argue a wet test isn't absolutely required, I'll go along with that.
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There's a pretty good chance my shadow won't be crossing their doorway again.
I think you folks are right about a quick sale. The salesperson kept saying something about 90 days (or some other length of time) same as cash that ends at the end of this month. When they wrote out the quote we (dw and I) were told it was to 'lock in' the price, but from the quotes others have gotten the 'honor' being locked in has evaporated.
What is unfortunate is that my dw really really really like the spa (even though we are months away from buying) now we'll have to find another dealer.
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that ends at the end of this month. .
What sales people frequently don't tell you about things that end is they are usually replaced by something else. I
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Hi, I actually own the new Moorea model. Bought mine end of April First one in Oregon.. Love the spa. looked at upper models and love this one.. paid 7100 with cover and start up chems and delivery and oz. sale price on it was 7995.00 so feel like got what I wanted.. really love the seating on this one and nice to step in on actual seat not lounger.. no complaints here just one happy customer... and yes you have to change water and santize with oz too... better do your homework on keeping the water clean.... should drain tub after first month what a big difference as well.. happy shopping
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What sales people frequently don't tell you about things that end is they are usually replaced by something else
They told us the 12 months same as cash ended on the 29th but something else would kick in for the next 3 months. I don't remember what it was, and actually don't care what THEY may have. We found another Caldera dealer about 50 miles away, we'll see them.
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I have an ozone system and really like it. I use it in conjuction with dichlor and my water clarity is good. I get 3 - 4 months out of the tub before changing. (you can longer or less depending though on how often you use it).
Ozone is not a necessity, but I belive an option well worth it. I wouldn't go back to a non ozone tub.
Dipping your toes in the water is useless. A wet test is the best way to see if a tub fits you. You want to test out the size of the seats and how comforatble they are, you want to see the depth of the water (too deep, too shallow). Leg room, and experiece the feel of the jets. Thier power, thier placement.
Toes in the water? that's silly.
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Something else we were told at the dealership that had me wondering and now curious as to the truth. While we were talking about ozone and ozonaters, we were given the impression that having ozone in the tub was more of a 'crap shoot' as to whether it was actually working. The salesperson told us that if it goes out how would you know. If it did, all of the benefits of bacteria destruction would not be happening. Is there a way to tell if the ozonator is working? I am completely ignorant on ozone and ozonators, someone help.
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There's a pretty good chance my shadow won't be crossing their doorway again.
I think you folks are right about a quick sale. The salesperson kept saying something about 90 days (or some other length of time) same as cash that ends at the end of this month. When they wrote out the quote we (dw and I) were told it was to 'lock in' the price, but from the quotes others have gotten the 'honor' being locked in has evaporated.
What is unfortunate is that my dw really really really like the spa (even though we are months away from buying) now we'll have to find another dealer.
that is true, except it was one year same as cash. watkins did a special deal through american general in honor of Caldera's 30th anniversary and the special promotion went through memorial day. so that part is not a lie.
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Something else we were told at the dealership that had me wondering and now curious as to the truth. While we were talking about ozone and ozonaters, we were given the impression that having ozone in the tub was more of a 'crap shoot' as to whether it was actually working. The salesperson told us that if it goes out how would you know. If it did, all of the benefits of bacteria destruction would not be happening. Is there a way to tell if the ozonator is working? I am completely ignorant on ozone and ozonators, someone help.
as long as you get a cd ozone you can always tell if it's working. it is constantly putting out little bubbles, that you can see, and feel so you can always tell if the ozone is working or not
it sounds like the salesperson you were dealing with is an idiot. I would call their sales manager and talk to them about it, because I am sure that they would want to know about it.
by the way the morrea is a great tub, we sold a bunch of them this weekend and every customer who's gotten one so far this year has loved it.
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as long as you get a cd ozone you can always tell if it's working. it is constantly putting out little bubbles, that you can see, and feel so you can always tell if the ozone is working or not
it sounds like the salesperson you were dealing with is an idiot. I would call their sales manager and talk to them about it, because I am sure that they would want to know about it.
by the way the morrea is a great tub, we sold a bunch of them this weekend and every customer who's gotten one so far this year has loved it.
Unless the dealer was a very rude or lieing, why should a shopper call Caldera? If I was an existing Caldera customer and not getting quality service, I'd call, but just a potential shopper?
Nah. I'd voice my displeasure with my checkbook - As in taking it someplace else. I would have no desire to call companies of stores where I thought the salesfolks where idoits. (With the quality of service I see in many stores in all industries, I'd be on the phone all day).
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Unless the dealer was a very rude or lieing, why should a shopper call Caldera? If I was an existing Caldera customer and not getting quality service, I'd call, but just a potential shopper?
Nah. I'd voice my displeasure with my checkbook - As in taking it someplace else. I would have no desire to call companies of stores where I thought the salesfolks where idoits. (With the quality of service I see in many stores in all industries, I'd be on the phone all day).
San Diego was talking about contacting the dealer's sales manager. Why? It is usually better to buy from the local dealer...service.
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San Diego was talking about contacting the dealer's sales manager. Why? It is usually better to buy from the local dealer...service.
Oh, I'd still be dealing with a local dealer. Just not a caldera dealership.
And that's not to say Caldera is not a quality tub. My point was that if I just started shopping and wasn't married to any particuliar tub, and one dealership had bozo's on the floor, I'd move on to another brand, rather than make calls.
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Caldera's a good tub but I would steer clear of this dealer.
The salesman is an idiot and his boss is suspect for letting him interact with customers.
If you have your heart set on Caldera make the drive to the other dealer.
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Thanks, all of you for your input. We're not 'married' to a Caldera but this place is local. Our other local choice is one that has window signs for L.A. Spas and Sundance but they push Outback. They only have one 05 LA in their show room and the next 4 tubs they are getting are Outbacks.
Maybe we should move to California, Texas, or some place where you dealers are.
Thanks again.
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I am also looking at a Caldera Moorea and Niagara from a local dealer here in North Jersey. After haggling they quoted $8100 for the Moorea with steps, Ozone, delivery, cover and lifter, starter chems and colored LED lights that we wanted. The Niagara was $9100 for the same. I have talked to other stores a bit farther from my house and have quotes on the Moorea as low as $7700.
Hope this helps. Did you find a cheaper price on the Moorea?
Marc
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Totaly untrue. Once the mazi injetor is instaled, the ozone unit could go bad a day later and you would still be getting little bubbles and have no clue your ozone unit went bad. Well, except you skin would slough off because of the excessive chemicals you would have to use. ::)
as long as you get a cd ozone you can always tell if it's working. it is constantly putting out little bubbles, that you can see, and feel so you can always tell if the ozone is working or not
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Wisaki and sandiego, thanks for the info on ozone. Unfortunately, I'm back to square #1. How can you tell if it's running, besides my skin may start peeling off.
gores95, we haven't looked any more for spas. The other local dealer handles some 'off the wall' brand, but we are confident that if we did go to a larger town that the price of a Moorea would come down and the throw in extras would go up.
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Wisaki and sandiego, thanks for the info on ozone. Unfortunately, I'm back to square #1. How can you tell if it's running, besides my skin may start peeling off.
It pretty much comes down to two things. First of all, there is a faint smell to ozone, the same smell you get after a lightening storm. You can't describe it, you either are familair with it or not and it won't be overpowering but if you're used to it you know. Secondly, if it's a CD ozonator (prefered over UV types IMO) you should hear a buzz from the ozone generator to some degree indicating it is at least powered up (if you have a circ pump ozone will be created when it is running, usually 24/7 but if you have a 2 speed pump for filtering it only comes on during the filter sycles).
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For your sake I hope you are never standing close enough to a bolt of lightning to actualy experience that "smell." I live in an area where we have regular electrical storms and have never smelled the smell that every one who touts ozone talks about. Once the unit is in the spa cabinet, if you hear a faint buzzxing, you have a problem. The units operate silently, unless you are instaling one and power it up before closing the cabinet, then you MIGHT be able to hear a fazint buzzing. None the less, a day later it decides to quit producing ozone for one reason or another, maybe a defective unit, your're still getting little bubbles and are thinking you have ozone when you don't. with the extended "contact chambers most spas have, 99% of the effective ozone is used before it is injected into the spa vesel, so one should never smell that smell. OOOoooo that smell. what to do, what to do?!? How bout this, forget the ozone sales pitch all together and buy a good spa. You'll be OK using chlorine or bromine.
It pretty much comes down to two things. First of all, there is a faint smell to ozone, the same smell you get after a lightening storm. You can't describe it, you either are familair with it or not and it won't be overpowering but if you're used to it you know. Secondly, if it's a CD ozonator (prefered over UV types IMO) you should hear a buzz from the ozone generator to some degree indicating it is at least powered up (if you have a circ pump ozone will be created when it is running, usually 24/7 but if you have a 2 speed pump for filtering it only comes on during the filter sycles).
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1) I've been through more than a few lightning storms and that smell after a storm is very evident to me. I thought everyone with such expereince would know that smell but I guess I assumed too much.
2) Having a faint buzzing sound to an ozonator does not mean you have a problem. Now if it's buzzing like a bee hive that may be another case.
3) There is no such thing as zero off-gassing that I am aware of so it is not uncommon to smell a slight bit of ozone in a spa. I'm wouldn't recommend getting in and closing the cover to let it build up so I could smell it better but to the trained nose I think there'll be enough so you can smell it.
4) People always assume that bubles mean the ozone system is working well. I especially roll my eyes when I hear they've got a 5 yr old UV system and have never changed the bulb and say it's still working like a champ.
5) I've seen the difference between a good CD ozonator and no ozone at all so I'm a firm believer. Now if someone says the lower output types (espceially hte UV bulb type) aren't worth it then I'm not sure I can disagree much but then again, it's just my opinion but I try to say it in a way that it sounds like I know what I'm talking about. ;D
For your sake I hope you are never standing close enough to a bolt of lightning to actualy experience that "smell." I live in an area where we have regular electrical storms and have never smelled the smell that every one who touts ozone talks about. Once the unit is in the spa cabinet, if you hear a faint buzzxing, you have a problem. The units operate silently, unless you are instaling one and power it up before closing the cabinet, then you MIGHT be able to hear a fazint buzzing. None the less, a day later it decides to quit producing ozone for one reason or another, maybe a defective unit, your're still getting little bubbles and are thinking you have ozone when you don't. with the extended "contact chambers most spas have, 99% of the effective ozone is used before it is injected into the spa vesel, so one should never smell that smell. OOOoooo that smell. what to do, what to do?!? How bout this, forget the ozone sales pitch all together and buy a good spa. You'll be OK using chlorine or bromine.
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O.K., you folks have done it again. Spa 101 for me. What is the difference between cd ozonator and a UV type (I assume the UV type is for ozone, remember this Spa 101 for me).
Also, I had always thought ozone was almost essential for a spa, but I now learn it isn't and that using chlorine or bromine is sufficient.
Believe me I am learning something, here.
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O.K., you folks have done it again. Spa 101 for me. What is the difference between cd ozonator and a UV type (I assume the UV type is for ozone, remember this Spa 101 for me).
Also, I had always thought ozone was almost essential for a spa, but I now learn it isn't and that using chlorine or bromine is sufficient.
Believe me I am learning something, here.
1) CD stands for Corona Discharge while UV is Ultraviolet meaning it is a photochemical reaction using a bulb. All ozonators are not alike but typcailly the CD type put out more ozone than the UV types. The UV ozonators also require a bulb change every 12-24 months (opinions vary), some CD types require a chip change every so often (varies as well) while some CD types do not require a chip change at all. Ask questions when they say "ozone is XXX amount" (what type, what maintanance is required on teh unit, etc.); if you don't ask they may just install a cheaper UV type.
2) Some of us are very much sold on ozone as a great HELP in your water maintanance (anyone who sells them as the answer to ALL your water needs is trying to make the sale at any expense) but you'll still need to use some sanitizer. I know what I've seen out there in the spa world but my vote only counts once. Other people may not be so positive about ozonators and their vote counts too, I guess. ???
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O.K., you folks have done it again. Spa 101 for me. What is the difference between cd ozonator and a UV type (I assume the UV type is for ozone, remember this Spa 101 for me).
Also, I had always thought ozone was almost essential for a spa, but I now learn it isn't and that using chlorine or bromine is sufficient.
CD (Corona Discharge) is an electronic box that produces approximately 600-800 ppm of ozone (O3). It needs to be cleansed approximately once per year using white vinegar to remove the nitric acid that builds up in the lines, but is otherwise maintenance free. It is the optimal ozonator in the industry.
UV (Ultra Violet) is a bulb based system that produces between 150-200 ppm of ozone. The bulb loses approximately 90% of it's efficiency after 6 months and needs to be replaced every 18 months minimum. It is old technology and is not desirable in any way, shape, or form.
Terminator
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ppm?
Per million parts of what?
If there is no residual how could you measure ppm?
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Based on an average of 400 gallons of water. Sorry.
Terminator
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ppm?
Per million parts of what?
If there is no residual how could you measure ppm?
I assume that was measured at the output of the ozone generator, not in the spa.
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That would be a safe assumption. The half-life of ozone in water at 95f is 8 minutes. Ozone goes away really quick, so they would have to measure it at its output source.
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Precisely why I say O3 is B.S. We all know UV is out dated and even when it was new technology, it was pathetic. Now here you have all these folks with 5 year old O3 units and they haven't noticed a difference! I've been instaling CD O3 for what 7 years now, and I know for a fact that none of my customers are cleaning or replacing the chip. I'll bet a dollar to your doughnuts they are all going to say the same thing. M R ozone, iz not, iz 2 c m bubbles, I B, M R ozone.
4) People always assume that bubles mean the ozone system is working well. I especially roll my eyes when I hear they've got a 5 yr old UV system and have never changed the bulb and say it's still working like a champ.
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Precisely why I say O3 is B.S. We all know UV is out dated and even when it was new technology, it was pathetic. Now here you have all these folks with 5 year old O3 units and they haven't noticed a difference! I've been instaling CD O3 for what 7 years now, and I know for a fact that none of my customers are cleaning or replacing the chip. I'll bet a dollar to your doughnuts they are all going to say the same thing. M R ozone, iz not, iz 2 c m bubbles, I B, M R ozone.
But I have seen the difference on CD units because too often people start to have water quality problems and I go out and see that the ozonator stopped working for some reason and I see others who don't have it struggle much more. Can I convince you in a court of law? Maybe not but I have enough hands on knowledge to feel comfortable in my beliefs. I'm not going to convince you and vice versa so about all we'll agree on is the UV units aren't the way to go.
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Precisely why I say O3 is B.S. We all know UV is out dated and even when it was new technology, it was pathetic. Now here you have all these folks with 5 year old O3 units and they haven't noticed a difference! I've been instaling CD O3 for what 7 years now, and I know for a fact that none of my customers are cleaning or replacing the chip. I'll bet a dollar to your doughnuts they are all going to say the same thing. M R ozone, iz not, iz 2 c m bubbles, I B, M R ozone.
Huh. I have good luck with mine.
MA just reported building a new water treatment facility. It's primary sanitation system will be ozone.
::)
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And human beings don't fart, sweat, wear make up, and other unmentionables AFTER the water has been treated. It is a closed system, no human contamination.
Huh. I have good luck with mine.
MA just reported building a new water treatment facility. It's primary sanitation system will be ozone.
::)
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Hey I sell the heck out of them. Not because I present it, but because everybody else does. My resopnse, sure we've got that, if you like it, i'll be happy to add one for you.
But I have seen the difference on CD units because too often people start to have water quality problems and I go out and see that the ozonator stopped working for some reason and I see others who don't have it struggle much more. Can I convince you in a court of law? Maybe not but I have enough hands on knowledge to feel comfortable in my beliefs. I'm not going to convince you and vice versa so about all we'll agree on is the UV units aren't the way to go.
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And human beings don't fart, sweat, wear make up, and other unmentionables AFTER the water has been treated. It is a closed system, no human contamination.
And that's why the CD system runs 24/7 on the tub.
I want to make sure I'me hearing your correctly, it's your position, that and 03 system is useless on hottubs, right. Or did I jump to a false conclusion?
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They only run 24/7 when the spa is not in use. To the best of my knowledge, all manufacurers circuitry disables the ozone unit for a specified amount of time when a function is activated by a user on the spa.
And that's why the CD system runs 24/7 on the tub.
I want to make sure I'me hearing your correctly, it's your position, that and 03 system is useless on hottubs, right. Or did I jump to a false conclusion?
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They only run 24/7 when the spa is not in use. To the best of my knowledge, all manufacurers circuitry disables the ozone unit for a specified amount of time when a function is activated by a user on the spa.
Ok. lI'll give you 100% benifit of the doubt. Lets say mine runs 22/7 then. My experince has shown improved water quality with the CD ozinator. This is based on owning a tub without ozone, and seeing the effects in my current tub when the 03 was shut off.
Why is it that you feel 03 is useless? Do you have points that we can talk about and discuss? I am very willing to understand your view.
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They only run 24/7 when the spa is not in use. To the best of my knowledge, all manufacurers circuitry disables the ozone unit for a specified amount of time when a function is activated by a user on the spa.
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/37ea791b.jpg)
HotSpring Freshwater III Ozonator works 24/7 even with the jets running.
That begs the question: When do you want your water clean? Before you get in, while you're in it, after you get out?
With HotSpring Spas, you get all three.
Terminator
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(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/37ea791b.jpg)
HotSpring Freshwater III Ozonator works 24/7 even with the jets running.
That begs the question: When do you want your water clean? Before you get in, while you're in it, after you get out?
With HotSpring Spas, you get all three.
Terminator
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I'd rather mine shut off while I was in the spa, but that's just me.....http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:x4cTtQRJCXoJ:www.state.nj.us/health/eoh/rtkweb/1451.pdf+breathing+ozone&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1&ie=UTF-8
http://www.2bangkok.com/2bangkok/Scams/Ozone.shtml
http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Library/OzoneWeBreathe/ozone_we_breathe2.html
Quote from the Santa Barbara County Health Dept.
Ozone and Health
Studies have indicated that exposure to ground-level ozone air pollution, even at very low levels, can cause a number of respiratory health effects — particularly over time.
Symptoms of Ozone Exposure
When people breathe ozone air pollution, the lining of their lungs can become irritated and inflamed, much like a sunburn on the skin. Other symptoms include:
coughing
wheezing
pain when taking a deep breath
breathing difficulties during exercise or outdoor activities
Who’s at Risk?
children who are active outdoors
adults who work or exercise vigorously outdoors
people with respiratory diseases such as asthma or emphysema
people with unusual susceptibility to ozone
Read more on who is at risk...
Immediate Problems - Within 24 Hours of Exposure
respiratory symptoms such as coughing, wheezing and difficulty breathing as deeply and vigorously as normal
pain when taking a deep breath
airway inflammation
aggravated asthma or other respiratory diseases
increased susceptibility to respiratory infection
Read more on asthma...
Long Term Problems
accelerated aging of the lungs
diminished lung capacity
decreased lung function
aggravated asthma, bronchitis and emphysema
Actual Risk Factors Depend On:
current health and susceptibility to ozone
ozone levels
length of exposure to polluted air
breathing rate (or exertion level)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Health Risks
How does ozone affect health?
Scientists have been studying the effects of ozone on human health for many years. So far, they have found that ozone primarily affects the respiratory system. Roughly one out of three people in the U.S. is at risk of experiencing ozone-related health effects.
Ozone can irritate your respiratory system. When this happens, you might start coughing, feel an irritation in your throat, and/or experience an uncomfortable sensation in your chest. These symptoms can last for a few hours after ozone exposure and may even become painful.
Ozone can reduce lung function. When scientists refer to “lung function,” they mean the volume of air that you draw in when you take a full breath and the speed at which you are able to blow it out.
Ozone may make it more difficult for you to breathe as deeply and vigorously as you normally would. When this happens, you might notice that breathing starts to feel uncomfortable. If you are exercising or working outdoors, you may notice that you are taking more rapid and shallow breaths
than normal. Reduced lung function can be a particular problem for outdoor workers, competitive athletes and others who exercise outdoors.
Ozone can make asthma symptoms worse. When ozone levels are high, more asthmatics have attacks that require a doctor’s attention or the use of additional medication. One reason this happens is that ozone makes people more sensitive to allergens, which are common triggers for asthma attacks. Some of the common asthma triggers are dust mites, cockroaches, pets, mold and pollen. Asthmatics may also be more severely affected by ozone-induced respiratory irritation and reduced lung function than non-asthmatics.
Ozone can inflame and damage the lining of the lung. Some scientists have compared ozone-caused lung damage to a sunburn. Ozone damages the cells that line the air spaces in the lung. Within a few days, the damaged cells are replaced and the old cells are shed – much in the way skin peels after a sunburn. If this kind of damage occurs repeatedly, it may lead to permanent damage to your lungs that could cause a lower quality of life.
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/37ea791b.jpg)
HotSpring Freshwater III Ozonator works 24/7 even with the jets running.
That begs the question: When do you want your water clean? Before you get in, while you're in it, after you get out?
With HotSpring Spas, you get all three.
Terminator
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They're dropping like flies around here, I tell ya.
These are probably the same folks who think asbestos, lead, and mercury is bad for you. Kooks!
Who’s at Risk?
people with unusual susceptibility to ozone
Read more on who is at risk...
::)
If that's not an ambiguous position then I've never heard one.
Terminator
Terminator
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LMAO, I missed that part, LOL!
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Thanks for helping me with Spa 101, Ozone. Over the weekend I am going to try and summerize all of the information and put it in here. Then could you folks please scrutinize the info to see if I have 'a clue' on ozone or if I''m in the 'Twilight Ozone'. I know I will have some followup questions, so please come back.
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A small nit,
Wisokis link is to a bangkok (internationaly know for ...um scientific institutions, among other things, ;) ) and is specifically directed at systems set up to purify air and a company that was making outrageous claims. The link does not deal with Ozone as a sanitizing system for water.
Check your facts, do you own research before you make a decision. A lot of misinformation is being posted lately.
>:(
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There's more than one link there pallie, check them all. What is the molecular structure of air polutant ozone? what is the molecular structure of air purifier ozone, what is the molecular structure of water purification ozone. The answer to all 3 is O3. Three oxygen molecules. But I don't trust those Bangcockese scientists either. ::) The first one is from the New Jersy Dept. of health and senior services, lord knows they should know about polutants!
A small nit,
Wisokis link is to a bangkok (internationaly know for ...um scientific institutions, among other things, ;) ) and is specifically directed at systems set up to purify air and a company that was making outrageous claims. The link does not deal with Ozone as a sanitizing system for water.
Check your facts, do you own research before you make a decision. A lot of misinformation is being posted lately.
>:(
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There's more than one link there pallie, check them all. What is the molecular structure of air polutant ozone? what is the molecular structure of air purifier ozone, what is the molecular structure of water purification ozone. The answer to all 3 is O3. Three oxygen molecules. But I don't trust those Bangcockese scientists either. ::)
Yes. O3. is ozone. The concerns that are being raised today is O3 as an air purification system. As we all know, 03 rapidly changes back to 02. (that's why contact chambers are prefered in a water sanitation system, to mix the water and 03 togethor quickly and in a very confided area, otherwise the 03 is rapidly changed back to 02, rendering it ineffective...and harmless).
03 does indeed kill bacteria, mold, and fungus. The problem with air systems, is that it doesn't remove the dead organic matter from the air we breath as a air filtration system with paper filters. In a spa, the organic material is suspended in the water and removed by a convential filter medium.
your taking leaps by posting ozone air issues and applying it to ozone water systems.
I'd be more concerned with the off gassing of chlorine gas than an ozone system in a spa.
Hey, lets discuss the risks of dihrydrogenmonoxide ;)
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Very dangerous. The stuff kills daily!
Hey, lets discuss the risks of dihrydrogenmonoxide ;)
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I like to think that the ozonator on my tub is helping to combat atmospheric ozone depletion...... ;D
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Very dangerous. The stuff kills daily!
finally some one has the nerve to discuss a serious pulloutant that even ozonators have a tough time with.
i went out this morning and found my tub nearly FULL of dihydrogen monoxide. should i shock it? or just drain and try a refill?
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What people tend to forget is that ozone is a gas, as in the bubbles coming from the return jet.
If that gas isn't absorbed, as in the bubbles coming from the return jet, then it has to go somewhere.
That somewhere is in the surface of the water (in case anyone didn't know bubble rise) and get off gassed into the tub.
I guess some manufacturers have a de gassing unit or use an extra long tubing to get the desired effect. But the question is how effective is that device. I believe that the Del degassing vessel requires a carbon filter that gets replaced every year and becomes useless if wet (i don't know these to be facts).
The argument of ozone has been fought many times and when I researched ozone before buying a tub all I could find is ozone for drinking water data. Those ozone units are much different than a spas. They use pure O2 and ozone is introduced in a few areas and monitored. We breathe 21% O2 and a 79% reduction in O2 has to equate to the same in O3.
I originally thought that a spa's ozonator was a placebo and I haven't experimented on my tub to see how much of an effect turning it off would have on my water but others claim that it does work. I run it 10 hours a day "just in case". My thinking is that if an O3 bubble comes in close proximity to an object it needs to do something to and the electrical charge is there - it'll connect with whatever and do something.
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Here's my summary.
Ozone (03) is a colorless gas but the belief it is odorless is debatable. Its purpose is to help reduce bacteria in the spa, assisting chlorine or bromine. (Using ozone is to help reduce the amount of chlorine/bromine needed) The ‘killed’ bacteria are removed via the filter. (The term paper filter was mentioned, nothing about the L.A. Spa sock) The actual need of ozone is debated but the consensus is that using ozone makes spa water quality easier to maintain. Ozone has a short ‘life’ in a spa, with a half life of 8 minutes at 95 degrees, making it somewhat safe to say it does not have much of a residual effect. Whether a person wants a constant ozone generator or one that generates at a differing frequency is something one would have to decide.
Ozonators:
There are two types of systems that product ozone. UV (Ultra Violet) and CD (Corona Discharge), UV is outdated and uses a light bulb that has a ‘life’ of about 2 years. It does not produce the amount of ozone as the CD (150-200 ppm vs. 600-800 ppm, measured at the discharge of the ozone generator). These differing amounts of ozone probably would effect how much/little chlorine/bromine would be needed for spa water quality maintenance. If purchasing a new spa that will have an ozonator added be sure to ask which type it will be, avoid the UV type.
The CD generator may require the changing of a ‘chip’, while others do not have a chip. The generator needs to be cleaned approximately every year to remove residue build up, otherwise are maintenance free. The bulb in the UV generators can be changed but the ease seemed questionable. Whichever system a person has they should follow the units’ maintenance schedule to assure yourself it is functioning properly.
How can you tell if your Ozone generator is working? As one member put it: ‘take a quarter, make a fist and place the quarter on your thumb, fling the quarter in the air, the odds you will ever know your ozone unit is working are less than the odds the quarter will land on heads or tails’.
There is some belief that bubbles’ coming from the bottom of the spa indicates the generator is working—more than one person has said that is incorrect. Those that have the UV type and have not changed the bulb in the past 5 years can be pretty confident it isn’t.
This is somewhat of what I have gotten. If you see any glowing errors please let me know.
As another member stated’. I like to think that the ozonator on my tub is helping to combat atmospheric ozone depletion......
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Here's my summary.
Ozone (03) is a colorless gas but the belief it is odorless is debatable. Its purpose is to help reduce bacteria in the spa, assisting chlorine or bromine. (Using ozone is to help reduce the amount of chlorine/bromine needed) The ‘killed’ bacteria are removed via the filter. (The term paper filter was mentioned, nothing about the L.A. Spa sock) The actual need of ozone is debated but the consensus is that using ozone makes spa water quality easier to maintain. Ozone has a short ‘life’ in a spa, with a half life of 8 minutes at 95 degrees, making it somewhat safe to say it does not have much of a residual effect. Whether a person wants a constant ozone generator or one that generates at a differing frequency is something one would have to decide.
Ozonators:
There are two types of systems that product ozone. UV (Ultra Violet) and CD (Corona Discharge), UV is outdated and uses a light bulb that has a ‘life’ of about 2 years. It does not produce the amount of ozone as the CD (150-200 ppm vs. 600-800 ppm, measured at the discharge of the ozone generator). These differing amounts of ozone probably would effect how much/little chlorine/bromine would be needed for spa water quality maintenance. If purchasing a new spa that will have an ozonator added be sure to ask which type it will be, avoid the UV type.
The CD generator may require the changing of a ‘chip’, while others do not have a chip. The generator needs to be cleaned approximately every year to remove residue build up, otherwise are maintenance free. The bulb in the UV generators can be changed but the ease seemed questionable. Whichever system a person has they should follow the units’ maintenance schedule to assure yourself it is functioning properly.
How can you tell if your Ozone generator is working? As one member put it: ‘take a quarter, make a fist and place the quarter on your thumb, fling the quarter in the air, the odds you will ever know your ozone unit is working are less than the odds the quarter will land on heads or tails’.
There is some belief that bubbles’ coming from the bottom of the spa indicates the generator is working—more than one person has said that is incorrect. Those that have the UV type and have not changed the bulb in the past 5 years can be pretty confident it isn’t.
This is somewhat of what I have gotten. If you see any glowing errors please let me know.
As another member stated’. I like to think that the ozonator on my tub is helping to combat atmospheric ozone depletion......
Ozone does indeed have an odor. It's slight, and depending on it's concentration one can smell it or not. But it does have an odor.
The bacteria that the ozinaor kills may be removed from the water via a filter, but mostly it's oxidized when the tub is shocked.
Despite one members comment about flipping a coin, it's been my experiece (both owning a tub with and without an ozinator) that a quality ozonator makes a significant, very noticable difference. Perhaps this may be dependant on the unit, the tub, the users chemical routine, but I must say, repeating the phrase "flip a coin" is misleading.
The appearance of bubbles does not necessarly mean the ozinator is working, however, if no bubbles are present, one can assume the ozinator system is not working correctly.
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No, The appearance of no bubbles means there is NO ozone unit on the tub, unles it was put in with out a mazi injector. The appearance of bubbles merely means the mazi injector is drawing air into the line, with or with out ozone. Tiny bubbles are meaningless, I repeat meaningless.
The appearance of bubbles does not necessarly mean the ozinator is working, however, if no bubbles are present, one can assume the ozinator system is not working correctly.
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No, The appearance of no bubbles means there is NO ozone unit on the tub, unles it was put in with out a mazi injector. The appearance of bubbles merely means the mazi injector is drawing air into the line, with or with out ozone. Tiny bubbles are meaningless, I repeat meaningless.
How is that in conflict to what I said?
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No, The appearance of no bubbles means there is NO ozone unit on the tub, unles it was put in with out a mazi injector. The appearance of bubbles merely means the mazi injector is drawing air into the line, with or with out ozone. Tiny bubbles are meaningless, I repeat meaningless.
No bubbles does not necessarily mean there is no ozone system hooked up or no injector. There can be other reasons for no bubbles. You can have an ozone system on the tub and there can be no bubbles due to a check valve bad (in backwards, stuck, etc.) which is not that uncommon. It can also be an issue with the injector being plugged or just being a bad injector where the orrifice has flash (I've seen this a few times).
It is true that having bubbles does not mean the ozone is working properly, it meremly means the plumbing to the ozone system is proper. In the end, my experieince (field expereince that is, not just my own tub results) has shown that a good CD ozone system is a great addition to help keep your water clear!!
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No, The appearance of no bubbles means there is NO ozone unit on the tub, unles it was put in with out a mazi injector. The appearance of bubbles merely means the mazi injector is drawing air into the line, with or with out ozone. Tiny bubbles are meaningless, I repeat meaningless.
If you have an ozone system installed and see no bubbles:
1: Clogged injector
2: Bad check valve
3: Kinked ozone tubing
4: Bad circ pump
5: Dirty filters
As you can see, many things can attribute to no ozone bubbles... ;)
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Sorry Spatech, got it in just after ya... ;D
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So, if there are no bubbles, is the ozone system working correctly?
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So, if there are no bubbles, is the ozone system working correctly?
The ozone generator can be working fine, just the avenue from generation to induction can have an issue.
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Sorry Spatech, got it in just after ya... ;D
You were a bit slow on the trigger (they have something for that ya know) but you added a couple other reasons too so we'll keep you around.
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The ozone generator can be working fine, just the avenue from generation to induction can have an issue.
Which would mean the ozone system is not functioning correctly.
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Which would mean the ozone system is not functioning correctly.
Yes, meaning "System" as entirity. ;)
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Yes, meaning "System" as entirity. ;)
Yes. Of course.