Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: hawkman on May 25, 2006, 10:00:09 am
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My 2004 Caldera Tahitian pearl finish shell developed some cracking so it is being replaced. I picked the 2006 Envoy.. I am really concerned that the jets won't be powerful enough and I will end up dissapointed.
However, the issues I had with the Caldera pushed me over the fence to get the Envoy. Since owning the Caldera I had the cabinet replaced due to discoloration, the air knobs due to not shutting off, and the thermostat for not displaying the correct temperature (it was off by about 4 degrees).
Who has sat in both and can compare? The dealer didn't have them filled so I can only compare the Vista and the one I got.
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Well I know that Bill on here might chime in. He's owned both and on many occasions chose the Geneva which is the bigger Tahitian over the Envoy. In my wet test I preferred the Tahitian and bought one. It's too bad you can't wet test Envoy to truly tell for yourself. You might have just got a lemon with your 04 Tahitian. In the end it's your decision and hopefully it will work out for you. Good luck with the hunt
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I just wet tested both and preferred the Geneva. This will be our first tub so I do not have experience like the rest of the wonderful informative board members here.
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This may surprise some, but I like the Caldera jets more than the HotSpring - with one notable exception: the Moto Massage. I like that jet a lot, and would miss it.
The jets in the Caldera seem more active, and I love being able to flip the nozzle over to get a spin jet. I also like being able to shut down other jets to get more power where I want it.
If you can wet test the Vista - which I think you said - you will have a very accurate idea of the jet action in the Envoy.
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I did test the vista and was satisfied. But then I realized that the Vista has a larger pump. Not sure if that matters considering the tub is also larger. So if I was happy with the Vista performance, then you think I will be ok with the Envoy.. By the way I added Spaudio II as well. Not that you should decide based on that, but it was an added bonus.
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I also prefer the Caldera jets and power, but miss the Motomassage.
There will no doubt be things you miss from the Tahitian and things you prefer in the Envoy. My recommendation is to of try not to dwell too much on the differences, and enjoy the fact that you are relaxing in hot water!
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I did test the vista and was satisfied. But then I realized that the Vista has a larger pump. Not sure if that matters considering the tub is also larger. So if I was happy with the Vista performance, then you think I will be ok with the Envoy.. By the way I added Spaudio II as well. Not that you should decide based on that, but it was an added bonus.
They'll feel the same. I actually prefer the Envoy to the Vista due to the seating arrangement. Good luck and good tubbing! :)
Terminator
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I'm a very happy Envoy owner. ;D
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I am assuming you are getting this replaced under warranty. How can they replace a Caldera with a Hot Spring? Seems strange.
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Same company
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That does seem strange to replace a Caldera with a Hot Spring
As for your question, the Tahitian has two 2.5hp pumps, it is actually more powerful that Vista or Geneva, since it uses the same pumps but moves less water (360 gallons vs. 475)
The Moto Massage on the Hot Springs is great, that is a definate advantage, but in my personal opinion the lower lumbar seat on the caldera and the Ectaseat are advantages that the Hot Springs doesn't have.
Ask your dealer to fill them for you to you can try it out. As long as you are flexible about letting them do it on their time (this weekend everyone will be busy) I don't see any reason why they wouldn't do it for you.
But for the most power the Tahitian will do it for you. I'm sorry you had problems with your spa, that's not typical, you must've just gotten a bad tub, which happens to a small amount of people who purchase any product. I know there were some issues with the skirting a few years ago, but Watkins has made changes to that and it's been smooth sailing since, so don't let that discourage you......
Good luck
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The jets in the Caldera seem more active, and I love being able to flip the nozzle over to get a spin jet. I also like being able to shut down other jets to get more power where I want it.
Why doesn't HS switch to the active jets since they own the technology? I love the idea of being able to flip the nozzle to a spinner.
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WHAT ?!? Where on earth is this information coming from? You cant possibly believe that the same pump will move less water in one spa vs. another, by 115 gallons per minute no less?!? If this were the case, the only reason it would be happening is because the caldera jets are so small they restrict the flow, causing an uncomfortabe intensity in the jets and undue stress on the pump shortening it's life. Seriously, where is this information coming from?
As for your question, the Tahitian has two 2.5hp pumps, it is actually more powerful that Vista or Geneva, since it uses the same pumps but moves less water (360 gallons vs. 475)
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WHAT ?!? Where on earth is this information coming from? You cant possibly believe that the same pump will move less water in one spa vs. another, by 115 gallons per minute no less?!? If this were the case, the only reason it would be happening is because the caldera jets are so small they restrict the flow, causing an uncomfortabe intensity in the jets and undue stress on the pump shortening it's life. Seriously, where is this information coming from?
I've sold the Geneva and Tahitian for many years. The Caldera's are plumbed the same and the Geneva and Tahitian are the same spas, just different sized. The Gevena and Tahitian both have the same sized pumps, and are plumbed the same way. The Geneva has great power, but the Tahitain has even more power, because it is a smaller spa. That is where that information comes from. From experience on the floor and from feedback with customers and thousands of wet tests.
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I wouldn't think the volume of water in the spa would have much affect on jet pressure. That should be a function of how many gallons per minute the pumps could deliver.
As far as the small jets go, do they sting or itch if you are in the spa for awhile? It does seem like Caldera uses quite a few of the smaller sized jets in most of their spas. Maybe they aren't as harsh as some other brands out there.
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The smaller spa may appear to have more jet action, simply because the jets are closer to the center of the spa. The only way the smaller spa will really have more action from the same pumps is if the total jet count is fewer - same gpm divided by less jets = more gpm from each jet.
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Why doesn't HS switch to the active jets since they own the technology? I love the idea of being able to flip the nozzle to a spinner.
that's a very good question, one I'm going to ask the factory on my dealer evaluation form this year.
I have a partial answer for you, based on some simple facts: The jets in the Caldera not only flip from straight to rotary, they also turn off. That adds water pressure to the remaining jets, which is nice in the Caldera. It would be a problem in the HotSpring, becuase of the MotoMassage jets, which require a very precise amount of water to function correctly.
So - until they are willing to put the four Motos on a dedicated pump, which would be costly, and the rest of the tub on two other pumps...
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I wouldn't think the volume of water in the spa would have much affect on jet pressure. That should be a function of how many gallons per minute the pumps could deliver.
As far as the small jets go, do they sting or itch if you are in the spa for awhile? It does seem like Caldera uses quite a few of the smaller sized jets in most of their spas. Maybe they aren't as harsh as some other brands out there.
They do not sting or itch if:
they are bunched together as in the Ecstaseat
they are located in spots where your body is not real close or actually against them
they are located on spots where you move about
The really offer a powerful massage, you just have to keep the right distance from them. Actually that is a big advantage. Since I am 6"4 I cannot fit in the ecstaseat, but I can still get a good massage half way in. :)
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OMG, really?! So you intentionaly hold your body in a position in the spa, away from the jets, so they do not cause discomfort?! And you call this a good thing? Unbelievable, on the spa marketed as the most "comfortable." Maybe I'm sounding a little J.A. ish here, but, I calls em as I sees em.
They do not sting or itch if:
they are bunched together as in the Ecstaseat
they are located in spots where your body is not real close or actually against them
they are located on spots where you move about
The really offer a powerful massage, you just have to keep the right distance from them. Actually that is a big advantage. Since I am 6"4 I cannot fit in the ecstaseat, but I can still get a good massage half way in. :)
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Yeah, OK great. Since you've been in that SanDiego store so long, tell me about Marie that managed the store a couple years back. Also, I'd like to know exactly where you get your GPM info from. Thanks.
I've sold the Geneva and Tahitian for many years. The Caldera's are plumbed the same and the Geneva and Tahitian are the same spas, just different sized. The Gevena and Tahitian both have the same sized pumps, and are plumbed the same way. The Geneva has great power, but the Tahitain has even more power, because it is a smaller spa. That is where that information comes from. From experience on the floor and from feedback with customers and thousands of wet tests.
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:-X
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Wisoki-
I have three locations (about to open a fourth). I've been working for our company since I was 13 years old.
What does brining up an old salesperson who worked for us have anything to do with this conversation?
I'm not talking GPM. I'm talking about the performance of the tubs filled with water. I don't stay up on the GPM of the spas, because the reality is it doesn't matter. It matters how it feels to the customers and how if feels when you are in the spa, the Tahitian is stronger than the Geneva, that's all I'm saying.
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You brought up GPM, I was aking for clarification. So you remember Marie?
Wisoki-
I have three locations (about to open a fourth). I've been working for our company since I was 13 years old.
What does brining up an old salesperson who worked for us have anything to do with this conversation?
I'm not talking GPM. I'm talking about the performance of the tubs filled with water. I don't stay up on the GPM of the spas, because the reality is it doesn't matter. It matters how it feels to the customers and how if feels when you are in the spa, the Tahitian is stronger than the Geneva, that's all I'm saying.
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Yeah my dad hired her, I fired her.
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She's selling saunas in Canada now. Crazy b*&^h!
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She's selling saunas in Canada now. Crazy b*&^h!
you said it.
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She's selling saunas in Canada now. Crazy b*&^h!
Did you guys come across the same crazy saleswoman working for both of you? No redeeming qualites yet you both hired her?
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OMG, really?! So you intentionaly hold your body in a position in the spa, away from the jets, so they do not cause discomfort?! And you call this a good thing? Unbelievable, on the spa marketed as the most "comfortable." Maybe I'm sounding a little J.A. ish here, but, I calls em as I sees em.
Jeez. Are you sure you´re in the spa business?
Sound more like you are working in the law business. :o
And no. I don't hold my body in a position away from the jets. It was just the lounge that needed a mod.
:)
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That's funny, my Mom thought I should be a lawyer.
Jeez. Are you sure you´re in the spa business?
Sound more like you are working in the law business. :o
And no. I don't hold my body in a position away from the jets. It was just the lounge that needed a mod.
:)
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We were coworkers.
Did you guys come across the same crazy saleswoman working for both of you? No redeeming qualites yet you both hired her?
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I don't hold my body in a position away from the jets. It was just the lounge that needed a mod. :)
Karl, do what works. Each of us have one or two seats which we find special ways of enjoying. I have two jetstream jets - those are the biggest in the HotSpring - which I use for my back. To do so I have to sit on the floor of the tub. This only works if I'm in the tub solo. So go for it!
;D
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Call me crazy, but I, for 15 years, have been under the impression that getting a multi jetted hot tub/spa, was to get in the warm water and enjoy what the jets do! Now, I may just be foolish, but spending thousands times 3 for a hot tub that you need to "find special ways to sit in" sounds like lunacy to me. I guess that's why they say opinions are like ass holes, everybody's got one, but if I can't have the spa full on, with the jets fully open and sit there comfortably for 30 or more minutes, with my skin directly next to the jets, they why am I buying this thing? If I want to just soak in hot water, I'll fill up my bath tub, and save a bundle!
Karl, do what works. Each of us have one or two seats which we find special ways of enjoying. I have two jetstream jets - those are the biggest in the HotSpring - which I use for my back. To do so I have to sit on the floor of the tub. This only works if I'm in the tub solo. So go for it!
;D
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I've lost the point here. Are we saying that the Caldera jets are too powerfull and hurt your body while soaking for more than 30 minutes? Can't you adjust them down if they're hurting you?
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Call me crazy, but I, for 15 years, have been under the impression that getting a multi jetted hot tub/spa, was to get in the warm water and enjoy what the jets do! Now, I may just be foolish, but spending thousands times 3 for a hot tub that you need to "find special ways to sit in" sounds like lunacy to me. I guess that's why they say opinions are like ass holes, everybody's got one, but if I can't have the spa full on, with the jets fully open and sit there comfortably for 30 or more minutes, with my skin directly next to the jets, they why am I buying this thing? If I want to just soak in hot water, I'll fill up my bath tub, and save a bundle!
Easy. Because all don't have the same needs and preferences. And all doesn´t even have it from time to time. Like me.
The jets can be adjusted several ways, through engine speed, by adjusting the air mix and by playing with the diverters. The only complaint I had was the eurojets in the lounger. They were too powerful compared to the bigger jets in the same lounge. So I switched them out.
What is so damn bad with finding new ways of enjoying the spa? Why remain seated? It's not like it is a boat, right?
I often float in the middle, getting a great backrub from the big jet on the floor of the spa. It's great, but I don't think the Caldera people had that in mind when designing the spa. But I don't care about that. I'm happy.
I am a little sad I can't fit into the Ecstaseat, but then again - there is no spa with designated seats where I can sit with water up to my neck. That's the backside of being tall & handsome. 8)
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everyone has different body sizes and needs. you can always find a way to sit in a tub that the engineers don't think of. You might strain a unique part of your body that is hard to reach and so when you're in the spa you float.
there is no reason to slam someone because they can contourt their body in a spa a certain way to get added relief. bonus points for them.
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Call me crazy, but I,
Alright: Frank, you're a crazy butt eye. ;)
Ease off, tubs are about relaxing. I have a ten-year-old Grandee, and I have no trouble making it work. Just because I want a special pounding on my lower back today, doesn't mean I'll need it every day. Most of the time I sit in fromt of one of the two Moto Massage. Other times I'm just there to spend time with my daughter, and I'll sit anywhere that is open.
If you want to chuck your spa and go back to a bathtub just because Karl found a way to make his tub do what he wants it to, I guess we'll just have to honor that.
;D