Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: seamoe on May 14, 2006, 02:08:12 pm
-
I have the change to buy either a 06 Geneva for $7300(steps, coverlifter and chems) or a 06 Envoy for $8500(steps and chems) My concern is that the Geneva dealer is going out of the hottub business and the Envoy dealer is local (the Geneva dealer is about an hour away from me) I've done pelnty of research and don't see much of a difference between the two, with a few exceptions. I am leaning to the Geneva. Does anyone see the issue of not having a dealer as a major problem or a concern? There are local dealers who would provide service in the event of a problem, both a Hot Springs dealer and a Beachcomber dealer. Any suggestions or comments would be appreciated.
-
Have you wet tested either spa? I know someone on here has owned both spas and prefers the Geneva. But it all comes down to personal preferance. I would call Watkins on Monday and ask them who would do your warranty work.
-
I have the change to buy either a 06 Geneva for $7300(steps, coverlifter and chems) or a 06 Envoy for $8500(steps and chems) My concern is that the Geneva dealer is going out of the hottub business and the Envoy dealer is local (the Geneva dealer is about an hour away from me) I've done pelnty of research and don't see much of a difference between the two, with a few exceptions. I am leaning to the Geneva. Does anyone see the issue of not having a dealer as a major problem or a concern? There are local dealers who would provide service in the event of a problem, both a Hot Springs dealer and a Beachcomber dealer. Any suggestions or comments would be appreciated.
When you say there are local dealers who can provide service, can they provide WARRANTY service? Even under the warranty, what will they charge for travel fees?
-
$7300 for a Geneva is ridiculous. In my opinion the Geneva is a better spa, especially if you wet test it. It has two 2.5hp pumps 47 jets and an air blower (w/10 air jets) vs. the Envoy which has two 2.0hp pumps and no air blower.
If you are torn wet test the two of them, but I'd be willing to wager that you'll prefer the Geneva and especailly at that price. You should jump all over it.
As for your concern about the dealer I would contact Watkins and ask them about it, I don't think it would be a problem, but that is definatley something that you want to take into consideration.
The Envoy is a great tub and I am sure that the dealer in your area is great, so you definately want to research that before you buy.
-
About the warranty service, I am assuming that since they are both Watkins products, the local Hot Spring dealer would provide warranty service, however... I have tested both and like the Geneva a little better, mostly due to the lounge seat (didn't really care for the motomass.) and the control panel inside the spa. I liked the filtration system on the Envoy better than the Geneva, but I doubt that will be my deciding factor. This will be my second tub (first one was a Gulf Coast Englewoood) and since I am spending twice as much, I want to make sure I do it right this time.
-
A HotSpring dealer may not always service a Caldera spa, I know that we, my dealership, would most certainly not.
-
We do not service Caldera under warranty
-
HotSpring dealers do not handle Caldera warranty.
-
5 words, What The Market Will Bear. I know in my market, that is all I can get for a Geneva, the problem being the customers perception. "$7995 for that. It looks like every other tub I've ever looked at."
$7300 for a Geneva is ridiculous. In my opinion the Geneva is a better spa, especially if you wet test it. It has two 2.5hp pumps 47 jets and an air blower (w/10 air jets) vs. the Envoy which has two 2.0hp pumps and no air blower.
If you are torn wet test the two of them, but I'd be willing to wager that you'll prefer the Geneva and especailly at that price. You should jump all over it.
As for your concern about the dealer I would contact Watkins and ask them about it, I don't think it would be a problem, but that is definatley something that you want to take into consideration.
The Envoy is a great tub and I am sure that the dealer in your area is great, so you definately want to research that before you buy.
-
I wet tested both, and at the same approximate price, dramatically preferred the Geneva. Please search for my prior review on both.
Regards,
jeff
-
I've owned both, prefer the Geneva, although the Envoy is nice too. Not having a dealer would be a show stopper for me, though. A great price is only going to last for a short time if the spa is broken and you can't get it fixed.
You might wish to call Watkins and ask them how they would handle warranty issues. My guess is they would send out an independent repair person. That might be OK, but talk to said repair person first to be sure you would get service if needed.
Bill
-
Our dealership will service any type of spa regardless of make or model. This includes Caldera, D1, Sundance or any others.
Geneva is a good tub, as is the Envoy. With your dealer for Caldera going out of business, find out if the HS dealer has any interest in opening up a Caldera dealership.
Biggest things b/w Caldera and HS IMO...
1) Control panel location if you're in a cold weather climate.
2) No bypass filtration on the Envoy PLUS dishwasher safe Tri-X filters. You don't want to pull out the hoses in December.
3) Calderas are predominantly made in Mexico, while all Hot Springs are made in California.
But as the others have said- wet-test and see which one you like better. If it's the Geneva, find out if the HS dealer would fulfill the warranty obligations.
Good luck and keep us posted.
-
Our dealership will service any type of spa regardless of make or model. This includes Caldera, D1, Sundance or any others.
Geneva is a good tub, as is the Envoy. With your dealer for Caldera going out of business, find out if the HS dealer has any interest in opening up a Caldera dealership.
Biggest things b/w Caldera and HS IMO...
1) Control panel location if you're in a cold weather climate.
2) No bypass filtration on the Envoy PLUS dishwasher safe Tri-X filters. You don't want to pull out the hoses in December.
3) Calderas are predominantly made in Mexico, while all Hot Springs are made in California.
But as the others have said- wet-test and see which one you like better. If it's the Geneva, find out if the HS dealer would fulfill the warranty obligations.
Good luck and keep us posted.
What's wrong with Caldera controls if in a cold weather climate? They are not on the side of the cabinet like a HS.
Also Caldera Spa "SHELLS" are made in Mexico, then they are taken up to Vista for plumbing. Anything wrong with that?
Maybe you should do some reasearch on the brands before you go out making broad generalizations about the tubs.
-
I just bought a Caldera tub a month ago and compared it to the hot springs line as well.. wet testing does make a difference.... and even dry sitting both tubs are a hugh difference.... Caldera won over comfort and powerful jets.... yes hot springs has no bypass filters ect. at 5 fiters x 84.00 each... just keep tub clean and be picky since you pay so much for hot water... love my caldera hot springs not all that great....
-
This full filtration thing gets beaten to death in this forum doesn't it? I noticed no difference in the filtration effectiveness of the Geneva (by pass filtration) and the Envoy (full filtration). Both had sparkling clean water.
Bill
-
Caldera's only have bypass filtration when the second pump is on and you are trying to get maximum power out of the spa, that is usually when people are using it and how long is that for maybe 15-30 minutes? So it's usually never a big deal
No bypass filtration was a great marketing plow years ago but it has severley limited what HS spas can do as far as jet performance....
-
No bypass filtration was a great marketing plow years ago but it has severley limited what HS spas can do as far as jet performance....
Ya'll don't make me pull out the pics again......... :)
Terminator
-
No bypass filtration was a great marketing plow years ago but it has severley limited what HS spas can do as far as jet performance....
Poor jet power was *one* of the factors kept me from buying the Envoy, but I did not know until recently (all the titilating conversations here!) that this issue was related to the filtration system.
-
Term,
Spare me your pictures. Seen 'em all before. Like everything else in our technical age, there are compromises with each and every aspect of any technical product. The Geneva and the Envoy are very similar in size, format, and are made by the same manufacturer. They are both very high quality tubs. The difference is in their performance and feel. To accomodate the full filtration feature, the Envoy was designed with slightly smaller pumps. If you like the feel of the Envoy and like full filtration, then the Envoy is an excellent choice.
But make no mistake about it, the Geneva offers a much more vigorous hydromessage and this engineer doesn't think the full fitration feature is worth the cost in terms of reduced performance. Moreover, from the experience of having owned both tubs, I can state again categorically that the water quality was essentially identical for each.
BTW, I think your pictures reflect abject neglect on the part of the owners and/or users. I would expect that pump life would not be different for these two spas if they were adequately maintained.
Bill
-
No bypass filtration was a great marketing plow years ago but it has severley limited what HS spas can do as far as jet performance....
Having used and sold both spas for years, the jet performance on say the Vista and the Geneva are so close, that using the statement "Severely Limited" is a naive generalization. I use the Vista instead of the Envoy because they have comparable jet counts and pump sizes. The # of filters on the HS allow the same water flow to return to the pumps as any other spa with the same GPM. The difference is where the water is coming from: Bypass suctions, or suctions located below the filters. Still the same amount of water to make everything hydrolically work without back pressure.
I agree it does limit them from adding 3 and 4 water pumps, however Caldera hasn't made the venture into 3 and 4 water pumps have they??...They spent all their money forgetting to put a filter lid on the Aventine. ;D
-
About the warranty service, I am assuming that since they are both Watkins products, the local Hot Spring dealer would provide warranty service, however... I have tested both and like the Geneva a little better, mostly due to the lounge seat (didn't really care for the motomass.) and the control panel inside the spa. I liked the filtration system on the Envoy better than the Geneva, but I doubt that will be my deciding factor. This will be my second tub (first one was a Gulf Coast Englewoood) and since I am spending twice as much, I want to make sure I do it right this time.
Interesting. How did you like the Gulf coast? Why are you buying a new tub? Why not another Gulf?
-
What's wrong with Caldera controls if in a cold weather climate? They are not on the side of the cabinet like a HS.
Also Caldera Spa "SHELLS" are made in Mexico, then they are taken up to Vista for plumbing. Anything wrong with that?
Maybe you should do some reasearch on the brands before you go out making broad generalizations about the tubs.
Sorry about generalizations, but I certainly didn't see a whole lot of Ocean colored spas at the factory. Also the control panel on the outside is great for peace of mind if you haven't used the tub in a few days. If something trips in that spa and you haven't been out there in a few days of Wisconsin winter, you're sure not going to be happy with what you find.
-
I guess there's a contingent of folks who DO prefer the type of massage the Envoy provides. About 16,000 of them last year. To each his own. :)
Terminator
-
I'm so glad to see that Jacuzzi and Sundance aren't the only ones to have arguements among family members
-
Mom always liked you better!
I'm so glad to see that Jacuzzi and Sundance aren't the only ones to have arguements among family members
-
I'm so glad to see that Jacuzzi and Sundance aren't the only ones to have arguements among family members
Speaking from a selling perspective, and a selling perspective only, Caldera spas are too similair to a 100 other spas on the market. There is no real exclusivity in how they are built or operate, the jets they use or insulation they have or the way the filter etc... so in comparing them to HS, I personally have a bias. Ask dealers who have sold both products, and they will tell you which spa is easier to sell. I sell both, so I'm not narrow minded on one individual product. Both are great products and stand to last a long time.
P.S. These are my opinions, and the comments made were not intended to downplay one brand or the other. There are many customers who prefer the HS product to the Caldera and vice versa. By the way when is the annual full contact football game between HS and Caldera. ;D
-
I agree with pkud. And I sure don't argue with Caldera folks. They're like distant cousins that you see every few years or so when you visit Cancun. :)
Terminator
-
Speaking from a selling perspective, and a selling perspective only, Caldera spas are too similair to a 100 other spas on the market. There is no real exclusivity in how they are built or operate, the jets they use or insulation they have or the way the filter etc... so in comparing them to HS, I personally have a bias. Ask dealers who have sold both products, and they will tell you which spa is easier to sell. I sell both, so I'm not narrow minded on one individual product. Both are great products and stand to last a long time.
P.S. These are my opinions, and the comments made were not intended to downplay one brand or the other. There are many customers who prefer the HS product to the Caldera and vice versa. By the way when is the annual full contact football game between HS and Caldera. ;D
Our competitive HS dealer has both HS and Caldera under the same roof. They have one Caldera tub among all the Hot Springs and it's dry.
-
We did actually carry them in 2001. I sold one and our Tyler store sold one. We still may end up carrying them again. I guess we already do via the HotSpot line. That Sea Mist Sorrento was something else!
Terminator
-
Having wet tested both, I completely agree that the Geneva provides a much more vigorous massage. The envoy has a total of 4hp vs 5hp, but I beleive the main reason is the flow penalty as a result of full filtration.
While sales stats are interesting, many inferior products outsell better ones.
Objectively, the Geneva has more friendly pump controls, better operating diverter valves, more pressure to the jets, wrist jets, air jets/pump, and exterior lighting. The Envoy has no bypass filtration and moto massage. Subjectively, there are of course many differences.
Wet testing both, my family hand down chose the Geneva - no contest.
I beleive that if you took the Geneva and sold it through the Hot Spring dealer network with the HostSpring brand, it would overnight break every record set by the Sovereign.
-
Having wet tested both, I completely agree that the Geneva provides a much more vigorous massage. The envoy has a total of 4hp vs 5hp, but I beleive the main reason is the flow penalty as a result of full filtration.
While sales stats are interesting, many inferior products outsell better ones.
Objectively, the Geneva has more friendly pump controls, better operating diverter valves, more pressure to the jets, wrist jets, air jets/pump, and exterior lighting. The Envoy has no bypass filtration and moto massage. Subjectively, there are of course many differences.
Wet testing both, my family hand down chose the Geneva - no contest.
I beleive that if you took the Geneva and sold it through the Hot Spring dealer network with the HostSpring brand, it would overnight break every record set by the Sovereign.
1: Again, the Vista is more comparable to the Geneva, not the Envoy.
2: Jet strength has nothing to do with the # of filters unless they are clogged as on any spa.
3: The controls on the HS couldn't be more user friendly you momo!(Jets on, jets off, light on light off.) ;D
4: HS may be inferior in your opinion and superior in many others.
5: As much as you would like to believe so, the Geneva will never touch the numbers of the Sovereign or the Envoy for that fact. It has less to do with the dealer network then it does with a customer being able to get a similair spa from a 100 other MFG's for less money.
-
I agree the Geneva will not touch the HS numbers. I said that if it was called a HS though, it would trounce them. Of course, this is just my opinnion. I don't see how the HS line differentiates itself so substaintially on features. HS has 100% filtration and motomassage. I think you could argue that any manufacturer could equally differentiate itself. HS differentiates itself through a simple quality approach and the best track record in the industry. It is not a product leader.
You could not be more wrong about the HS controls. The Geneva’s controls far surpass HS. First, the main control panel is “in” the tub. All functions can be accessed in the tub, and the screen is easily read in the tub (you can even invert the temp display). A secondary control panel is located on the opposite side of the tub and has individual Jets 1 and 2 buttons, lights, and a mode control button for stereo use. Hotspring really needs to bring the full control panel into the tub. On the HS, the main control panel is outside the tub, halfway down the front of the spa and impossible to see from in the tub unless you really hang out. You can't see or adjust the temp in the tub (without of course hanging/reaching out).
With the main controls out of site, you are left with the in tub mini control panel. It has no display, offers few functions, and is awkward. For example, there is only one jets button which has to be pushed 6 times to cycle through all jet option. 1st push is pump 2 low, then pump 2 hi, then pump 1 hi + pump 2 hi, pump 1 hi and 2 low, then just pump 1 hi, then off. Couldn't they have added 1 more button for independent pump 1/2 control?
The mechanical controls on the Geneva also surpassed the Envoy. Aside from their ease of use, the diverters moved much more smoothly and were quiet. Even the air intake switches had a smooth and solid feel relative to the HS.
There is no doubt the Envoy is a great product. But it is not a matter of opinion to say the Geneva has more jet pressure, more user friendly controls, an air pump, exterior lighitng, a 5 year Watkins Warranty, and nearly identical core parts to the HS line. Does this mean the Geneva is a better tub? Of course not, but it is for my family.
PS. My detailed review here: http://www.whatsthebest-hottub.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=wtb-hottub;action=display;num=1132890275;start=
-
I've decided on the Geneva. It arrives on Monday. I will keep you posted on how it goes. Greenhut had a great review which helped and I spoke to Watkins directly and was told that there is a local company that will provide warranty service in the event of a problem. Thanks for all the comments.
-
I've decided on the Geneva. It arrives on Monday. I will keep you posted on how it goes. Greenhut had a great review which helped and I spoke to Watkins directly and was told that there is a local company that will provide warranty service in the event of a problem. Thanks for all the comments.
I don't think you´ll be disappointed. I'm in my Geneva once or twice a day now. It´s great!
-
Congrats and Enjoy!
-
The Geneva has been our number one selling spa for as long as I can remember. That is why the Vista was made. Yes the Vista is more or a comparision to the Geneva, in fact around these parts we refer to the Vista as the "Ge-Vista" if you look at the spa, you can see it's almost an exact replica. Coincidence? I think not. Watkins was smart to take our number one selling spa and give it to the number one selling brand in the industry. The real difference is the moto-massage and the mold of the lounge, but other that that they are pretty similar.
In my opinion I will put a Geneva Utopia up against any other model of spa and it will hold it's own. It just depends on how you show it. Many HS dealers have not had success with the Caldera line because they don't know how to sell it, but here is San Diego, people know Caldera as the number one brand not Hot Spring, and you can ask anyone at Watkins about that. That's one of the reasons why they bought Caldera because we were a small regional company who did really well in San Diego, but here was this leader in the industry who didn't dominate their own backyard.
One of the main things that hasn't been talked about during this discusssion is the foot ridge. When you get a spa with that much power, like the Genva, or Vista or even the Envoy the foot ridge is a main selling point in my opinion. The number one feedback I get from customers who wet test Sundance, Hot Spring and Caldera is that they will say, " well you have this feature and they have that feature, but in the Caldera I felt the seating was more comfortable and that I was able to be in control more because of the foot ridge, I wasn't floating around in the spa"
That makes a big difference. HS is a great line, and they have spas that will fit some people better than Caldera might, but put me next to a HS dealer and I will be able to more than hold my own, if customers come and wet test the products.
-
I agree with sandiego on this one and not with Term and pkud - sorry guys. I am one of the 16,000 people who bought an Envoy last year, but not because I preferred it to the Geneva. There are NO SPAs that I have seen that have the total package that Caldera puts into their products. So the argument that it is difficult to differentiate the product because it is like 100 other spas does not wash with me either.
Finally, sandiego's point about the foot ridge is very well taken. If I were to go in the spa business, which is damned unlikely. the line I would pursue is Caldera. Having said that, my HS dealer had both lines for a few years, but could not justify the cost of double inventory or floor space for both and the HS outsold the Caldera line by about 10 to 1 according to him. So what do I know?
Regards,
Bill
-
The envoy has a total of 4hp vs 5hp, but I beleive the main reason is the flow penalty as a result of full filtration.
While sales stats are interesting, many inferior products outsell better ones.
The Envoy has over 300 square feet of filtering area. I don't exactly see that as a 'penalty.' I know it's easy to assume that drawing water through a filter will automatically slow everything to a standstill, but when the engineers where done, they had come up with a very good system.
As to your second statement above, I would add this: "for a short time."
I don't see inferior products outselling better ones for the long haul.
-
What's the foot ridge?
What benifits are customers seeing from it?
-
Drew,
Have you ever seen what appears to be "home plate" on the floor of the tub? That's it.
Don't worry about it 'cause your foot dome is far superior.
-
"Don't worry about it 'cause your foot dome is far superior."
Hmmm, maybe not. My under 5 foot wife found the Caldera foot ridge helped her stay planted in every seat in the spa except the lounger. When she tried a Jacuzzi with the foot dome, it was of no real help to her because by the time her feet hit it, her head was partially submerged.
This is just one more example of why everyone needs to wet test to make an informed decision.
Regards,
Bill
-
Drew,
Have you ever seen what appears to be "home plate" on the floor of the tub? That's it.
Don't worry about it 'cause your foot dome is far superior.
I thought the "home plate" was what you guys were calling the foot ridge. I just wasn't sure.
Yea, the footdome I l ove it. It was one of the main reason we bought the Caspian.
In past threads, it was discussed about having soething to put your feet against so that one can "push back into the seat" From looking at the pics on Caldera's web site, I just didn't think a small ridge would be conforatbale, obviously the folks who have actually expereiced it feel differently.
I do like the calf jets on the calderas. I wish my tub had something along those lines.
-
I have a Niagra and I've had nothing but problems. The thermostat went bad, the air valves got stuck either in an open or a close position, and now the top of the shell is cracking. Watkins is suppose to replace it and I am considering an Envoy. I will admit none of the HS have the same power like the Calderas, but I am really concerned with quality.
-
So if the HS filtration system is not the reason for the poor jet power, what is? Is seems like such a common comment, and HS seems to work so hard to make their tubs likeable. I'm not HS bashing- I came really close to buying the Envoy, but the jets were a turn off. If HS coud address this issue (and Watkins does in Caldera, it would seem) then HS could improve. What am I missing?
-
Good luck with the Geneva. It's a very nice spa. My favorite seat in the Envoy is the lounger with the DX Moto. That seat alone would make me buy the Envoy over the Geneva again. :)
-
I have a Niagra and I've had nothing but problems. The thermostat went bad, the air valves got stuck either in an open or a close position, and now the top of the shell is cracking. Watkins is suppose to replace it and I am considering an Envoy. I will admit none of the HS have the same power like the Calderas, but I am really concerned with quality.
I'm sorry to hear that you've had some problems. Where do you live? Who is your dealer? As for your conerns about quality, I can totally understand why you would fell that way, anybody would feel that way if they had problems with any product, but let me assure you, Caldera is not lower quality than HS, you must just be part of the smaller percentage of people that have a problem with a product. It can happen to anyone, the real deal is that you should get your problem fixed right away, but let me assure you that Caldera makes a great product, and if you do have a problem the onus is on the dealer to take care of you right away. If you have any other problems or questions please feel free to PM me.
As for Anne's comment, Watkins bought Caldera because of the "story" we had to sell, the hot tub circuit therapy and the jet performance. They then tried to incorporate much the of technolgy/plumbing that they got from buying Caldera into HS. I think as you see more and more new HS models, that they will all incorporate this technology. The Vista and Envoy were the first new models HS had come out with in awhile and I will say that they resemble a caldera more than they do a "traditional" HS line.
Also to address Chas's comments, there are a lot more HS dealers than there are Caldera dealers, so it is very coceivable that the Envoy will outsell the Geneva for many years......Until there are more dealers for Caldera. I think last I heard there were 800+ HS dealers and 250 Caldera dealers.....
-
I believe Chas sells both HS and Caldera. Chas, are you selling more Envoys or Genevas this year? Just curious.
-
I believe Chas sells both HS and Caldera. Chas, are you selling more Envoys or Genevas this year? Just curious.
Yeah but there is a difference, he's a HS dealer first a Caldera dealer second. You sell what you are most comfortable with. If I had both on the same floor, I would probably sell more Caldera's first, because I am more comfortable with them......
-
Calderas are very nice spas and folks that own them generally seem to really like them. We didn't have much luck selling them the first time around, but like sandiego said, we are HotSpring dealers first and we tend to stick with who brung us. Who knows, we may be selling them again before too long. :)
Terminator
-
Calderas are very nice spas and folks that own them generally seem to really like them. We didn't have much luck selling them the first time around, but like sandiego said, we are HotSpring dealers first and we tend to stick with who brung us. Who knows, we may be selling them again before too long. :)
Terminator
Term-
If you ever sell them again, I'll teach you how to sell them. As long as you bribe me with alcohol, and put away your guns..... :)
-
Term-
If you ever sell them again, I'll teach you how to sell them. As long as you bribe me with alcohol, and put away your guns..... :)
That's pretty much a deal, except for that Tomfoolery about putting away guns. How in the hell is someone supposed to sell a spa unless their heeled?
Terminator
-
I believe Chas sells both HS and Caldera. Chas, are you selling more Envoys or Genevas this year? Just curious.
We still sell far more HS than Caldera.
The Caldera tubs DO have great jet action, no gettin' around it. And I like the fact that they have the outside lighting.
-
Yeah but there is a difference, he's a HS dealer first a Caldera dealer second. You sell what you are most comfortable with. If I had both on the same floor, I would probably sell more Caldera's first, because I am more comfortable with them......
Do I know you?
You're right, of course, but I just wonder if we have met?
PM me - I think I might owe you some money...
;)
-
"How in the hell is someone supposed to sell a spa unless their heeled? "
ROTFL!