Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: Gomboman on May 06, 2006, 01:02:12 am
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OK, I basically follow the Vermonter method in conjunction with ozone and an N2 cartridge. The method consists of adding dichlor after each soak. The amount of dichlor added is dependent on your chlorine demand to achieve 2-3 ppm FAC fifteen minutes after it's added.
Anyway, the theory is that you soak in the spa without any Free Available Chlorine (FAC) so you're not sitting in a "chemical soup" bath. I believe most folks here follow this routine. This system has worked out for our family so far.
Is it lame to soak in the spa without any Free Chlorine? How long would it take to catch something nasty from an infected guest without any sanitizer in the spa? My family is clean, but who knows what my six year old daughter will bring home from school. ;D
Dichlor users, do you soak in the spa without any Free Chlorine?
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I never though about your question but I soak in 0 chlorine all the time. With friends and without. Let me see if I understand your quandry. If your soaking with another person your concern is, if that person has some sort of bacteria (which is a teeny tiny organism) that it will somehow get carried through the water and get in something on your body that will cause you to have a problem with the same bacteria?
I think we have all kinds of mechinisms on and in our body to fight off the kind of bacteria you are talking, because we fight them off all day long in everyday situations. If it were the case that we increased our chances of getting some bacterial infection from the water in a hot tub my guess is the odds are still so low that it isn't any different than being in the same room with someone who is infected on a warm day.
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You have probbly read the posts about my skin problems. The process of elimination has traced it to the spa. My spa must ahve no free chlorine since I use an ozonator, Nature2 and Activate.
We recently went on a 10 day vacation and followed the dealer's advice to add 6 oz of Activate and turn down the temp to 80. The temp only dropped from 99 to 93 in 10 days.
Upon retrurn the spa was in pretty good shape with only slight cloudiness. We added Activate to raise the mps level and let it sit. After a few hours a test showed no mps. So we kept adding it. It would test a good mps level after we put it in, but showed extremely low a few hours later.
Someone of this site said to use Dichlor too so I bought some and added 1/4 cup and let it sit for a few hours. All levels tested perfect. So the advise to use weekly dichlor was good - thanks to whoever advised it.
I had some minor surgery a few days ago and will need to let it heal before going in the tub. The big test is if the skin problems return now that we are using Dichlor.
Here is my question. Should I continue adding Activate after each soak with a weekly Dichlor shock (indoor tub - odor is an issue) or eliminate mps altogether and use Dichlor? ???
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Advice that has been given to me here and I have used it is to add a little chlorine (1 PPM) before your company uses the tub and then add more chlorine (2-3 PPM)during a non soak period (eating dinner). The chlorine would be used up in a short period of time due to any bacteria in the water. I used a pre measured dose in a container and just walked by the tub a popped it in.
We don't party often, but have had 8 or 9 people in the tub on a given day, most of them teen age boys. The above method worked for me.
As far as soaking with infected people, I would hope that responsible adults would know if they shouldn't soak IF they know their infected with something. If you want piece of mind, adding a little chlorine (1 PPM) often will help kill anything in the tub.
Depending on your skin reaction to chlorine, soaking in chlorine isn't too bad once in a while. I have soaked in my tub with over 20 PPM chlorine and came out OK, I would think most people could soak in 3 PPM with it being OK. I have read that water companies use 3 PPM to disinfect their drinking water.
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Since the reaction only occurs when I use the tub, it is highly unlikely there is any "infection". My guess is there is some chemical that my body doesn't agree with, or that I am not properly maintaining the tub. Once the offending chemical is removed or I do the job right, the reaction will stop. It is a process of making small changes and gauging the result.
I was mostly intetrested in what "free chlorine" was and should there be any in an mps tub or a bromine tub. That appears to be the base of the whole thing. Apparently there are 3 miain tyoes of tubs chemically speaking: chlorine tubs, bromine tubs and mps tubs. and there seems to be variations under each type. Right now we use mps. Perhaps that is the culprit and I will have to switch to bromine or chlorine. I have no idea how Bacqua-Spa and Spa Perfect fit into all this.
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I think that the recommendation to soak with chlorine in the tub is based on bacterial reproduction. If there is chlorine present when bacteria are introduced, then they are killed probably in a few minutes. If you dont add chlorine until you leave the tub, those bacteria have multiplied, and you have a bigger # to kill.
Personally, I soak in 0 chlorine as often as possible.
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Since the reaction only occurs when I use the tub, it is highly unlikely there is any "infection". My guess is there is some chemical that my body doesn't agree with, or that I am not properly maintaining the tub. Once the offending chemical is removed or I do the job right, the reaction will stop. It is a process of making small changes and gauging the result.
I was mostly intetrested in what "free chlorine" was and should there be any in an mps tub or a bromine tub. That appears to be the base of the whole thing. Apparently there are 3 miain tyoes of tubs chemically speaking: chlorine tubs, bromine tubs and mps tubs. and there seems to be variations under each type. Right now we use mps. Perhaps that is the culprit and I will have to switch to bromine or chlorine. I have no idea how Bacqua-Spa and Spa Perfect fit into all this.
Were you the originator of this thread? I thought Gomboman was, on my computer he is the first post. My comment on infected people was based on his questions. Or are you one in the same - I know I've never seen you two together! ;D
There really isn't such a thing as a MPS tub. MPS is an oxidizer not a sanitizer so if that's what you're using, maybe you found the culprit - you need sanitizer. N2 and ozone are secondary sanitizers, with chlorine and bromine as primary. You need something to give an initial kill. I don't think Baqua or Soft Soak can use either MPS or N2
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Just a few suggestions. Check your pH often. I'm always skeptical about chlorine being the offending irritant. If your pH is too low or too high (most cases too high) it can cause an itching sensation on your skin and stinging of the eyes. Chances are your tap water has some chlorine in it already.
Also, check with your dealer and see if they have Taylor reagents or another way to test for combined chlorine WITHOUT using a reflectance test such as ALEX. Eliminating chloramines is another hurdle to jump, but if you use MPS in combination with the Dichlor, it will knock some of them out.
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Theres only one way to gaurantee that you dont get pseudomonas or one of the other bacteria that thrive in warm water and that is to always maintain a sanitizer residual.
If you use your spa without a residual you may go a long time and never have a problem but if you ever get infected you will wish you had never used your spa without a good level of sanitizer.
Some of the forms of bacteria that grow in a spa are pretty serious and can be deadly. One thing to remember is when your running your spa you are aerating the water and if theres bacteria in it and you inhale it you can end up with some pretty serious problems.
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Theres only one way to gaurantee that you dont get pseudomonas or one of the other bacteria that thrive in warm water and that is to always maintain a sanitizer residual.
If you use your spa without a residual you may go a long time and never have a problem but if you ever get infected you will wish you had never used your spa without a good level of sanitizer.
Some of the forms of bacteria that grow in a spa are pretty serious and can be deadly. One thing to remember is when your running your spa you are aerating the water and if theres bacteria in it and you inhale it you can end up with some pretty serious problems.
OK, this is what I was talking about. The intent of my original post may have gotten lost. I normally soak with zero Free Chlorine, as many people do on this forum. I wanted to know if this was a safe routine to follow.
Let's go back to the original question. Assuming you're a chlorine user, do you typically soak without any Free Available Chlorine? If so, do you have concerns following this method?
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gombo, you've got the idea. The chlorine dissipates/ or is oxidized after a day or so. Put the dichlor in after you're done as usual.
Questionable guests....up the dichlor prior to.
That's a good topic. It follows our orientation procedure when we set someone up with a new hot tub on ozone, n2, and dichlor.
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I think bacteria doubles every 20 min in a hot tub environment. Also, some bacteria dies in that hot environment.
Assume you have close to 0 bacteria before you get in due to previous dosing of dichlor from the day before. If 4 people soak in a tub for 40 min and the bacteria that started on their bodies doubled 2x - how much bacteria would that be?
For the sake of argument, lets assume that each person brings in 1000 bacteria (could be 10K or 10M). 4000 x2x2 = 16000 in 40 min. If you dosed after soaking with 3 PPM chlorine and it lasts for 20 min and it's residue lasts for hours, then you did a effective dose. I don't think it was detrimental to anyones health. If that same dose didn't last for 20 min, then you haven't effectively killed all the bacteria and I would think it could be a problem.
In the same scenario, if you start off soaking in 2 PPM chlorine, now 20 min later, your soaking in 0 bacteria since the original chlorine killed the bacteria that was introduced. If you add another 2 PPM, you are killing some more bacteria.
I personally don't think there's a problem soaking in 0 chlorine except when you have a party that'll last for hours. Having people in and out of the tub without adding chlorine periodically could be a problem. As people get in and bacteria lingers and doubles evry 20 min, by the end of 3 or 4 hours - way too much bacteria.
I usually soak in 0 chlorine and I don't have N2 and my ozone runs 10 hours a day. I do put chlorine in the tub before parties, I probably would add a little before guests use the tub depending on the number of people using it.
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I soak with no free chlorine and don't worry about it. (The ozone is working 24/7 though. ) I am methodical to ensure that I sanitize afterwards and get the levels up to kill anything that I might have introdcued from the soak.
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First of all sanitize is not sterilize. Meaning there is always some bacteria in your spa. Second, for most people 2, 3 or even 5 ppm of free chlorine is very unlikely to hurt anybody. I am not convinced that even very sensitive skin people would be harmed by chlorine at this low level. While it is true that using the Vermonter's method would result in little or no chlorine for most private spa users, it is also true that there may be times when that scenario is neither necessary nor desirable. For example, with guests over I would consider dosing the spa before, during, and after. Depending on the number and age of the guests. If there were a lot of kids, I would dump the water after they left.
As to the core question: Is it safe to soak in water with little or no free chlorine? The answer is it all depends. For most private users who are treating their water properly, in accordance with the Vermonter's or similar method, and who have normal immune systems, the answer is a qualified yes. For other people who can't answer all of these conditions in a positive manner, maybe the answer is no.
Let me suggest an example of where it might not be safe. Someone undergoing chemo therapy, whose immune system is very weak, it would not be prudent to soak in a spa that wasn't well and truly sanitized with a free chlorine high enough to keep the bugs well in check. I would think young children, too, would be safer soaking a a spa with sanitizer present.
Regards,
Bill
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OK, let me sum this up. It sounds like most people soak without any Free Chlorine but add chlorine when strangers or kids show up. Will the use of Ozone/N2 help protect you if someone in the spa was infected?
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OK, let me sum this up. It sounds like most people soak without any Free Chlorine but add chlorine when strangers or kids show up. Will the use of Ozone/N2 help protect you if someone in the spa was infected?
No! N2 isn't strong enough and ozone doesn't run when a pump or light button is pushed - their both secondary sanitizers.
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Where is everyone finding free chlorine? I' pay a minimum of $5 / pound!
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No! N2 isn't strong enough and ozone doesn't run when a pump or light button is pushed - their both secondary sanitizers.
Maybe on your spa.
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Maybe on your spa.
Are you saying that ozone runs 24/7 on HS even when there is therapy going on ... is this new? I was under the impression that D1 was the only tub that does that BUT they use an UV type (2004 info) to be able to run when therapy is going on.
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Are you saying that ozone runs 24/7 on HS even when there is therapy going on ... is this new? I was under the impression that D1 was the only tub that does that BUT they use an UV type (2004 info) to be able to run when therapy is going on.
The only time Ozone would not be inducted into the spa on a HS is if the spa was on its summer timing mode, or if were a 110V model, where the circ pump turns off while the jet pumps are operational. ;)
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No! N2 isn't strong enough and ozone doesn't run when a pump or light button is pushed - their both secondary sanitizers.
My spa also runs the ozone in conjunction with the circ pump that runs 24 hours whether the other jets are on or not. And the filter intake for the circ pump also includes the N2 cartridge so water is constantly flowing over that as well for what ever good it may be doing. So far it has kept the water in pretty good shape with just dichlor after use and an occasional dichlor shock. But I haven't had any big crowds or kids in the tub yet.
Not planning on having any kids in there in the future either...
:-X
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So I'm guessing that this (24/7 ozone) is something that has changed recently, I know in Oct 2004 when I was shopping only D1 was able to do that.
Now the question is ... how efficient would 24/7 ozone be in killing bacteria in the whole tub, considering it's short lifespan. As far as N2, I tried it and it didn't do anything in my tub, was told I was using it wrong but don't see how.
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So I'm guessing that this (24/7 ozone) is something that has changed recently, I know in Oct 2004 when I was shopping only D1 was able to do that.
Now the question is ... how efficient would 24/7 ozone be in killing bacteria in the whole tub, considering it's short lifespan. As far as N2, I tried it and it didn't do anything in my tub, was told I was using it wrong but don't see how.
I'm pretty sure my watkings tub has ozone 24/7.
I too don't see how you could be using ozone "Wrong"
I do belive that you must be using 24/7 (As opposed to jsut when it's filtering, and have a CD unit (As opposed to UV) to see significant results.
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I believe D1 allows ozone even when people are using the spa. I do not think Hotspring does and I know that Sundance does not.
Chlorine is more efficient at sanitizing a whole body of water becaus of the nature of chlorine. As soon as you add it, it spreads itself right trhough the plumbing.
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So I'm guessing that this (24/7 ozone) is something that has changed recently, I know in Oct 2004 when I was shopping only D1 was able to do that.
Now the question is ... how efficient would 24/7 ozone be in killing bacteria in the whole tub, considering it's short lifespan. As far as N2, I tried it and it didn't do anything in my tub, was told I was using it wrong but don't see how.
Ever since ozone has been available on the HS line, and the spa was a 220v unit, 24/7 injection occured. I believe it was 89' or 90'. Maybe someone can help me out on the years. N2 really should be used as a catalyst for the ozone system and not by itself. I don't personally use N2 on my spa, for I couldn't tell if it made any difference in my water maintenance. ;)
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N2 really should be used as a catalyst for the ozone system and not by itself. I don't personally use N2 on my spa, for I couldn't tell if it made any difference in my water maintenance. ;)
Huh? The Nature 2 mineral pack, is a catalyst for ozone?
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N2 is silver and zinc. It kills and prevents the growth of bacteria.
Ozone is a strong oxidizer that kills and oxidizes bacteria.
I have always wondered if ozone would try and oxidize the minerals in the water before it attacked the bacteria, thus working against the N2. Anyone have any thoughts?
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N2 is silver and zinc. It kills and prevents the growth of bacteria.
Ozone is a strong oxidizer that kills and oxidizes bacteria.
I have always wondered if ozone would try and oxidize the minerals in the water before it attacked the bacteria, thus working against the N2. Anyone have any thoughts?
DR Spas' site (Rhtubs.com)says:
"Nature2 can be used with every type of chemical treatment program available except bromine and bromide based chemicals, biguanide products (Baquacil* or SoftSwim**) and copper-based algaecides."
The Nature 2 site (Nature2.com) says:
• The use of an efficient ozone generator with Nature2 may reduce the need for supplemental chemical treatments.
My pool dealer wants me to put one on my new pool. A catridge costs about 60$.
I told him I only use about $15 of trichlor a season.
:P
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Huh? The Nature 2 mineral pack, is a catalyst for ozone?
I guess you already answered your question with your last post, but yes a catalyst. Inhibiting the replication of bacteria further allowing you to use less chems. ;)
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I guess you already answered your question with your last post, but yes a catalyst. Inhibiting the replication of bacteria further allowing you to use less chems. ;)
Huh?
I could be spazed out here (long meetings do that to me). But when you used the word "Catalyst" I took that to mean:
Something that initiates or causes an important event to happen. Originally a term used in chemistry for the volatile (active) chemical in a formula (Thanks dictionary.reference.com )
The key word is Active. A catalyst starts, or activates a process or reaction.
From your answer, Are you using catalyst as a synonm for "enhances" or am I still missing something?
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I guess you already answered your question with your last post, but yes a catalyst. Inhibiting the replication of bacteria further allowing you to use less chems. ;)
When I was using N2 I still was using 3 PPM chlorine and it didn't make a difference with my dosing schedule. I still needed to add some dichlor every other day. My argument for not using it was for $20.00 I can buy a lot of dichlor.
My water seems to behave opposite of others - N2 didn't work and enzymes foam. I can't go days without dosing although it seems on my "off day" dosing I need just 1.5 PPM to keep the water clean looking.
Ozone and N2 might keep the bacteria count down after chlorine or bromine do their job but hit the tub with sanitizer if ever there's a question.
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Huh?
I could be spazed out here (long meetings do that to me). But when you used the word "Catalyst" I took that to mean:
Something that initiates or causes an important event to happen. Originally a term used in chemistry for the volatile (active) chemical in a formula (Thanks dictionary.reference.com )
The key word is Active. A catalyst starts, or activates a process or reaction.
From your answer, Are you using catalyst as a synonm for "enhances" or am I still missing something?
I guess I'm using it as a synonym. The N2 cart is a vehicle that aleviates "some" of the hard work ozone encounters. It is a means to jumpstart the killing process. Or easily put, It helps! ;D
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I guess I'm using it as a synonym. The N2 cart is a vehicle that aleviates "some" of the hard work ozone encounters. It is a means to jumpstart the killing process. Or easily put, It helps! ;D
got it. Thanks Pkud.
Me? I didn't see a difference with N2 and am tempted to use the word "sham", but too many folks rave about it.
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I'll say it...SHAM!
But i still sell a boat load. ;D
I'm thininking I might try another round with it, just to be super duper doubly sure of my opinon. :)
or Maybe, I am lucky and I have great water.
Whats the mark up on N2? How does that compare to other chems you sell? Are the N2 People really pushing you to sell it? My dealer, and all the reps and techs rave about it. ( iwonder too, if the 22 year old kid who was poushing it even has a hot tub) Have they been "educated" by N2?
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EBAY!!!!! ;D
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I don't personally use N2 on my spa, for I couldn't tell if it made any difference in my water maintenance. ;)
Very interesting. My HS N2 cartridges cost me about $30 through my dealer. I like to support the dealer when I can.
I'm not sure if I see much of difference either though. I sure would like to read a scientific controlled study on this topic. It shouldn't be that difficult of a test to conduct. Mine could be filled with plastic beads for all I know.
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I'm thininking I might try another round with it, just to be super duper doubly sure of my opinon. :)
or Maybe, I am lucky and I have great water.
Whats the mark up on N2? How does that compare to other chems you sell? Are the N2 People really pushing you to sell it? My dealer, and all the reps and techs rave about it. ( iwonder too, if the 22 year old kid who was poushing it even has a hot tub) Have they been "educated" by N2?
Our N2 is packaged specially as a HS product and shipped from Watkins. I never have dealings with the (Zodiac) N2 guys. As with any aftermarket item, the manufacturer would like to see you sell more. As far as the mark-up, the word "Keystone" comes to mind. ;D
P.S. Congrats on your Sox last night. :P
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Our N2 is packaged specially as a HS product and shipped from Watkins. I never have dealings with the (Zodiac) N2 guys. As with any aftermarket item, the manufacturer would like to see you sell more. As far as the mark-up, the word "Keystone" comes to mind. ;D
P.S. Congrats on your Sox last night. :P
What's the Keystone comment? ( idon't get it)
Yea, the sox did well last night. :) Who were those people in the yankess uniforms? I didn't recognize them. ;) ;D
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What's the Keystone comment? Huh.
100% give or take. ;)
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EBAY!!!!! ;D
Holy crap, you'll void your warranty you cheap-a$$!!!!
;D ;D
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This is an interesting thread. Life long Red Sox fan here.
Anyway, let me see if I can help with the questions about Nature 2. Essentially N2 is an ion exchanger that puts silver ions into solution in the tub. Silver ions make the cell walls of bacteria more permeable. This means that the chlorine can penetrate into the cell more easily to kill the bacteria. To make an analogy, it would be the same as reducing the immune system of a person.
So, all else being equal, the use of N2 would result in a reduction in the amount of time it takes for the chlorine to sanitize the spa. This could result is a need for less dichlor, but more realistically it implies that the dichlor is just more effective. The way to test for this is to measure the amount of combined chlorine that is formed in say one week of regular use. You should see a reduction in combined chlorine for an N2 treated spa as compared to one without it. I think that N2 is a good product, not a sham, but I also think that it is a nuance, and offers and meaningful, but subtle improvement in overall water cleanliness.
Bill
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This is an interesting thread. Life long Red Sox fan here.
Anyway, let me see if I can help with the questions about Nature 2. Essentially N2 is an ion exchanger that puts silver ions into solution in the tub. Silver ions make the cell walls of bacteria more permeable. This means that the chlorine can penetrate into the cell more easily to kill the bacteria. To make an analogy, it would be the same as reducing the immune system of a person.
So, all else being equal, the use of N2 would result in a reduction in the amount of time it takes for the chlorine to sanitize the spa. This could result is a need for less dichlor, but more realistically it implies that the dichlor is just more effective. The way to test for this is to measure the amount of combined chlorine that is formed in say one week of regular use. You should see a reduction in combined chlorine for an N2 treated spa as compared to one without it. I think that N2 is a good product, not a sham, but I also think that it is a nuance, and offers and meaningful, but subtle improvement in overall water cleanliness.
Bill
My use of a "Sham" was a little over the top. I'll retract that statement, however my feelings in personal use of the product remain the same. After all, the N2 origination was supposed to be a natural alternative to using Di-chlor or Bromine, not just minimizing their use. All in all, it helps MPS sales for dealers with large chemical outfits as well as being a profit gainer itself. ;)
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Holy crap, you'll void your warranty you cheap-a$$!!!!
;D ;D
You're ABSOLUTELY right - I am a cheap a$$ in certain things and this is one of them ... that's why I don't even use it! 2 of them sticks could buy me 10 lbs of dichlor from Doc and the good stuff too - 62% AVAILABLE CHLORINE!!! :D
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Bill that's a great post.
I wish Zodiac (makers of N2) and (some) dealers would present the product that way, but they don't, becasue they probabably would sell significantly less cartridges. :(
Many people selling N2 will give you the impression it makes a significant difference in the amount of chemicals you use. and will have a very noticable effect on water quality. I belive these statments to be "exagerated" (to be polite).
For instance: The N2 site tells me that while using N2, I will be able to reduce chlorine use to just 0.5ppm. Huh, That's whay I do now without the N2 stick.
I have thought long and hard about this, and I cant see increasing the cost of each of my tub refills by $30 for what I think is, at the very best marginal gains, if any.
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drewstar
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drewstar
Yes?
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Yes?
My computer "entered" instead of going down a line but I was goiing to ask how long have you been using that little chlorine (0.5). Stuart suggested that I use that little as well but I found my water didn't stay too nice. (of course I was going through something else with my water at the time). I typically use 3 PPM after soaking and 1.5 PPM every other day if I don't soak.
Ever any problems with your water.
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My computer "entered" instead of going down a line but I was goiing to ask how long have you been using that little chlorine (0.5). Stuart suggested that I use that little as well but I found my water didn't stay too nice. (of course I was going through something else with my water at the time). I typically use 3 PPM after soaking and 1.5 PPM every other day if I don't soak.
Ever any problems with your water.
duh.
I missed the decimal point.
I don't go to .5
I go to 3 - 5
sorry.
I am the forum dummy today. (Again).
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sorry.
I am the forum dummy today. (Again).
No you're not ... remember I hit the enter key and left just your name ... so I think we're equal dummies! :D
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No you're not ... remember I hit the enter key and left just your name ... so I think we're equal dummies! :D
Does any one maintian a .5 ppm with the N2?
I saw that N2 is selling test strips. Anyone have these? What ppm do they say is "Good" ?
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N2 strips test for MPS - not for the silver ions.
I know people have had good or great sucess with N2 but I don't see the point of throwing in 2 tablespoons of MPS every time you soak. Your TDS would go sky high and the info of add 1 teaspoon of dichlor if the tub looks hazy says something to me.
There may be people who use 0.5 PPM but I didn't seem to have any luck with it. Heck I didn't have any luck with it at 3 PPM, I never tried 0.5 PPM. What I thought would happen was keep my water nice longer due to the initial killing of dichlor and the silver ions along with ozone to keep the count low - it didn't.
I need to see real value in something and N2 doesn't provide it for me. The one stick I had it I used with dichlor and shocked with MPS once in a while. My dealer's chemical program consists of N2 with a weekly shock of enhanced shock. Maybe MPS burns up whatever bacteria feeds on but with my limited experience I can't see how 1 weekly shock would keep my water clean.
I agree with you! Even at about $17 on Ebay, I don't think it's worth it. I truely don't think I would trust my tub just using MPS.
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My Envoy came with N2, of course, and it also has an ozonator. I add dichlor after each use in accordance with the Vermonter's method and check to be sure that my chlorine is 3 to 5 ppm about 15 minutes after the addition (i.e. when the clean cycle stops or a bit later). I also change my water every 60 days or so. Clearly I am not trying to find the least cost water program. I want clean water and after spending 9 grand for a nice tub am not going to scrimp on the chemicals.
It may be true that Zodiac overstates the case for their product, show me a marketing effort that doesn't exaggerate to make a case, but I have tried leaving the N2 out and there is a difference. It is not night and day, but the water clears faster after the pumps are off, I don't need to use MPS or clarifiers when N2 is part of the regime and I don't need to use more than maybe a tablespoon and a teaspoon of dichlor to shock once a week. Without the N2 cartridge in play the shock was more like 2 tablespoons plus of dichlor. Although I agree that dichlor is cheap, it is also not environmentally friendly and minimizing the amount required is a sound practice.
You pays your money and you takes your chance. Don't get too serious about this kiddies, its all just for fun after all.
Bill
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So I'm guessing that this (24/7 ozone) is something that has changed recently, I know in Oct 2004 when I was shopping only D1 was able to do that.
Now the question is ... how efficient would 24/7 ozone be in killing bacteria in the whole tub, considering it's short lifespan. As far as N2, I tried it and it didn't do anything in my tub, was told I was using it wrong but don't see how.
Someone has probably already replied to this but since I may never get to the end of this thread I thought I would throw my .02 in there before I lost the thoguht (easy to occur as I get older...) ....Many, many tubs did Ozone 24/7 in 2004. All Jacuzzi, Sundance, Hotsprings, Caldera, Emerald, etc with the small circ pumps did this back then. Only ones that didn't were the ones who were touting elimation of the "tiny" pump in favor of using one of the larger pumps for circ but even then, those could be set up for more frequent circ so the 24/7 has been pretty standard for a while now, right guys?
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N2 strips test for MPS - not for the silver ions.
I know people have had good or great sucess with N2 but I don't see the point of throwing in 2 tablespoons of MPS every time you soak. Your TDS would go sky high and the info of add 1 teaspoon of dichlor if the tub looks hazy says something to me.
There may be people who use 0.5 PPM but I didn't seem to have any luck with it. Heck I didn't have any luck with it at 3 PPM, I never tried 0.5 PPM. What I thought would happen was keep my water nice longer due to the initial killing of dichlor and the silver ions along with ozone to keep the count low - it didn't.
I need to see real value in something and N2 doesn't provide it for me. The one stick I had it I used with dichlor and shocked with MPS once in a while. My dealer's chemical program consists of N2 with a weekly shock of enhanced shock. Maybe MPS burns up whatever bacteria feeds on but with my limited experience I can't see how 1 weekly shock would keep my water clean.
I agree with you! Even at about $17 on Ebay, I don't think it's worth it. I truely don't think I would trust my tub just using MPS.
Just MPS? What are you talkign about Willis? I know I only used N2 for a short time when I first got my tub but at no time did I make the mistake of thinking that only N2 and MPS were needed. I think it stated then that Dichlor was needed but the "AMOUNT" of dichlor needed would be LESS, not absent. In my use, it did seem to reduce the amount needed but it seems like I am a miser when it comes to dichlor use anyway so it didn't save much and I stopped using it. The second reason I stopped using it was that my TDS levels seemed to increase significantly when I used the N2 regime.
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Just MPS? What are you talkign about Willis? Â I know I only used N2 for a short time when I first got my tub but at no time did I make the mistake of thinking that only N2 and MPS were needed.
My HotSpring manual outlines using only N2 and MPS as a chlorine free alternative. The experts here wouldn't recommend this but it sounds good to newbie's.
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I use dichlor, N2 and ozone now instead of biguanides. But I have a friend who uses MPS, N2, and ozone. With no actual sanitizer such as Bromine, Chlorine, or Biguanide aren't the people with MPS at risk for pseudomonis or another bacteria?
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Just MPS? What are you talkign about Willis? I know I only used N2 for a short time when I first got my tub but at no time did I make the mistake of thinking that only N2 and MPS were needed. I think it stated then that Dichlor was needed but the "AMOUNT" of dichlor needed would be LESS, not absent. In my use, it did seem to reduce the amount needed but it seems like I am a miser when it comes to dichlor use anyway so it didn't save much and I stopped using it. The second reason I stopped using it was that my TDS levels seemed to increase significantly when I used the N2 regime.
From the N2 website:
When: What to do:
Purifier Start Up Drain and refill your spa. Balance water per dealer guidelines. Add 1 teaspoon of dichlor to spa per 250 gallons (approx. 1000 litres). (Note: 1 teaspoon = 1/4 ounce = 7 grams.)
Every Day Run spa according to recommendation supplied to you by the manufacturer of your spa
Before Each Use Add 1 tablespoon of potassium peroxymonosulfate (MPS) to spa per 250 gallons (approx. 1000 litres)
(Note: 1 tablespoon = 1 tablet = 3/4 ounce = 21 grams.) A convenient way to insure proper MPS level is to use a Nature2 Spa Test Strip. If the Nature2 Spa Test Strip indicates a low level of MPS, add 1 tablespoon of MPS to spa per 250 gallons and retest.
Once A Week Add 3 tablespoons of potassium peroxymonosulfate to spa per 250 gallons (approx. 1000 litres). Check and adjust pH and total alkalinity. A convenient way to check pH and total, alkalinity levels is to use a Nature2 Spa Test Strip.
Every 4 Months Drain and refill your spa.
Replace Nature2 purifier, repeat purifier start-up.
As Needed If water looks hazy, shock treat with 1 teaspoon of dichlor per 250 gallons (approx. 1000 litres)
Other than startup and water looking hazy - no dichlor.
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I didn't think the N2 strips checked for silver ions, but I was curious if the color tabs were calibrated for the .5 levels? My Lesiure time strips are guaged to show chlorine leves are in the correct color code around 3ppm.
Adding shock/MPS every time you soak also seems foolish to me. As i mentioned, my pool dealer is trying to talk me into a N2 system for my new AGP. It's about $150 for the canister (attatches to the filter return line) and about $60 a cartridge. The catridge should last all season (about 4 months here in MA). That's it....Oh, and you have to shock every week.
No thanks. I buy a 50lb tub of 90% trichlor ($65), and that lasts me about 4 years. I shock about 3 times a season if that.
::)
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Drewster yoy should not use trichlor in your spa.
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I think he meant for his pool. AGP= above ground pool? I misread it at first too.