Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: luv2bretired on May 08, 2006, 09:01:51 am
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Hi all.
First post but I've been reading for about a month now. You guys are insane so I thought I'd join the bunch. So here is my question. I have my choice narrowed down to the Caldera Geneva. We have wet tested a bunch of different spas but liked this one. My dealer also sells hot springs. I have read here about the filtration. Coming from an industrial background, I was wondering what the difference in filtration in microns is between the tri-x filters and the pleated ones that everyone else seems to use. I do have a concern about filtration but I can't afford, nor was I too impressed with the hot springs tubs that my dealer had in his show room.
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Welcome to the forum. I'm sure you will get the answers you want, and probably hear from a few happy Geneva owners. We look forward to hearing about your final decision and its arrival.
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I wouldn't let the filtration issue be a deciding factor, unless for some reason, you would be using your tub in a significanlty different way than others, or you had some condiiiton (such as extreme excema) that required you to seek out an advanced filtering system.
the Tri-x and no by pass filtration, in my humble opinon, is a way for HS to differentiate thier product from others. It may be better - but there are no independent studies to show it's better. If the hotsprings tub was the tub I wanted and was in my budget, then the filtration may be an added bonus. Or if I was trying to make up mind and between two tubs, and everything else was equal (price, size, comfort, quality, dealer, ) then I might say, "Damn, I've got to choose one, sure give the one with the fancy filter"
But the fact is, I belive all the quality tubs provide quality filtering and don't let yourself make this a key issue.
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Coming from an industrial background, I was wondering what the difference in filtration in microns is between the tri-x filters and the pleated ones that everyone else seems to use.
Hi luv2bretired:
Your hot tub purchase will be one of the best things you ever did. It will REALLY improve you quality of life.
I can't really speak for the Tri-X filters, but I will say that the marketing group of every spa manufacturer always needs an "edge."
I've been using paper filters for 7 years and have enjoyed very good water quality. The secret is to establish a treatment routine, tweak it until you understand it and have it right, stick to it like glue and wash (clean) your filters regularly. When it was just me, I cleaned my filters every 2 weeks. Now that I have 8 or more in my tub daily, along with parties every weekend, I clean weekly. Use a filter cleaner (Home Depot sells a good one) and a high pressure hose for best results. Also, replace your filters every other year, even if they look like they don't need it (something I didn't do 'till recently, DUMB me).
Hope this helps!
Drewski
8)
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My store in Breckenridge, CO does weekly chemcial checks on ruffly 140 spas. Most every brand that is sold in Coloardo (and then a few others). Not one spa stays cleaner then the rest. No matter how many filters, what style of filter. The way a spa stays clean is who and how a spa is used. If you shower before entering the spa, the water will last longer then if you just got done with a baseball game and jumped in the spa. If you keep your chemicals in balance you spa will stay cleaner.
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My store in Breckenridge, CO does weekly chemcial checks on ruffly 140 spas. Most every brand that is sold in Coloardo (and then a few others). Not one spa stays cleaner then the rest. No matter how many filters, what style of filter. The way a spa stays clean is who and how a spa is used. If you shower before entering the spa, the water will last longer then if you just got done with a baseball game and jumped in the spa. If you keep your chemicals in balance you spa will stay cleaner.
I love this post!!!
This speaks volumes about spa filtration. Hot Tub Guru takes care of many different brands on a weekly basis, who better to take advice from.
Thanks for keeping it real!!!
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And this thread http://www.whatsthebest-hottub.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=wtb-hottub;action=display;num=1146619471 is even more incredible as it contains actual documented pictorial evidence that filtration CAN make a tremendous difference.
I have to say it is THE most amazing post I've yet to read on this forum. :o
It is also extremely relevant as it involves both of the brands in question in the original post.
Terminator
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I love this post!!!
This speaks volumes about spa filtration. Hot Tub Guru takes care of many different brands on a weekly basis, who better to take advice from.
Thanks for keeping it real!!!
Now slow down a second....I thought he said all spas are about the same except for the Marquis that are much cleaner.....did I mis-read his post..... ;)......no really......most of todays spas work well.....just as it was mentioned get into a regular maintenance routine and you should be fine.....also as it was metioned.....RINSE THOSE FILTERS.....it is simple and can be done in just a few minutes and it really does help in keeping your water clean as well helping your spa to perform up to its full potential.....
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And this thread http://www.whatsthebest-hottub.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=wtb-hottub;action=display;num=1146619471 is even more incredible as it contains actual documented pictorial evidence that filtration CAN make a tremendous difference.
I have to say it is THE most amazing post I've yet to read on this forum. :o
It is also extremely relevant as it involves both of the brands in question in the original post.
Terminator
Term,
all kidding aside I recommend Sea Klear 4 in 1 clarifer...even with the hard water that is shown in the post it will help tremendously with metal removal and is all all organic product......
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This is a very informative post. We are in the market for a spa and my d/w asked me about filtering (which is best, which is easier) of which I had no answers. Now I have half an answer to give her.--- all filtering systems do a great job, some have a by-pass some don't (I can already hear, 'what's a by-pass' ?) With that, I think HS will be her new favorite.
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Mendo, mi amigo, I'm not sure I understand the gist of your post.
I was definitely deadly serious with my comments in my previous post. The "Crappy Water" thread turned out to be THE most substantial thread I've seen yet in 1.5 years on this forum.
And based on T-Lady's comments, she did nothing extraordinary to her water other than clean the filters while Karl XIII tried a litany of recommended chemical methods and his water actually got worse.
For simplicity, I offer this:
T-Lady's starting water in her HotSpring Spa:
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/198ed459.jpg)
T-Lady's ending water after 3-5 days (not specified) filtration:
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/3e9f6618.jpg)
Karl XIII's starting water in his Caldera Spa:
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/3050073d.jpg)
Karl XIII's ending water after 2 days treatment and filtration:
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/e153b783.jpg)
To my strictly logical way of thinking, this filtration debate begins and ends right here.
Terminator
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Term... you know I love you, BUT... if I remember correctly that is not what Karl's water started like. His water was clear and then he added something to shock it and then it looked like that. It might not be much different, but IMHO I don't think you are comparing apples to apples and should make such cut throat conclusions. ;)
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Beating a dead horse (Moderators: wmccall, ht-mod)
This is where threads will be moved that turn in to the same old hashing of FF vs TP, Master's Spa Shows, Artic Martketing, etc, etc.
Subject Started by Replies Views Last post
Filtration in hot tubs
« Pages 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 »
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what the difference in filtration in microns is between the tri-x filters and the pleated ones that everyone else seems to use.
I remember asking Watkins this very same question and was unable to get a straight answer. That was when they first came out a couple of years ago. How about if someone step up and answer it. How many microns does the TRI-X filter?
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Term... you know I love you, BUT... if I remember correctly that is not what Karl's water started like. His water was clear and then he added something to shock it and then it looked like that. It might not be much different, but IMHO I don't think you are comparing apples to apples and should make such cut throat conclusions. ;)
I think you're right Brooke. And I do apologize. I had forgotten the discoloration occurred after he shocked the spa.
That brings up the question that I never did recall seeing the answer to: Did the iron in his water come out of solution after being shocked? If so, we'll just see what happens when T-Lady shocks hers as I'm guessing it won't.
Terminator
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Term... you know I love you, BUT... if I remember correctly that is not what Karl's water started like. His water was clear and then he added something to shock it and then it looked like that. It might not be much different, but IMHO I don't think you are comparing apples to apples and should make such cut throat conclusions. ;)
Ding! Ding! Ding!
Karl had a chemical reaction.
Tattoolady had particulate matter in her water.
So I agree with Brook.
Are we comparing apples and oranges here?
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How many microns does the TRI-X filter?
If no one answers by the time I get back to work tomorrow, I'll find out. I really don't know.
Terminator
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Luv2b, Your post mentioned something that you see has not even been touched on in this thread..Filtration in microns...that's because the filtration in hot tubs is basically a type of gross filtration..Can you imagine how long a 0.02 would last in the iron water? So that kind of puts everything in perspective because the filtration in a hot tub is actually gross filtration, removing particles, hair, belly button lint...etc. microbiological control is achieved with good water management, ozone etc.
And as you can see, dissolved matter like iron particles are sequestered with chemical agents and removed with the pleated filters. The T-ladies tub was a great visual example but it also required the use of chemical agents that help the filters remove the iron. Sorry Term, but I don't think that you can draw any conclusions between T-Ladys tub and Karl's since you don't really know what you started with...and by that I mean the entire composition of the water and disolved minerals.
You get an "F" today for Filtration Science :'(, sorry
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Is iron iron? If it is not, then what is it? Is it in the water to begin with and not visible to the naked eye? Is it not present until shock is added? Or is it in the water, visible, and removed via filtration?
I think I'll stick with what I've got until shown otherwise. If I'm off base, I'll own up to it. :)
Terminator
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If no one answers by the time I get back to work tomorrow, I'll find out. I really don't know.
Terminator
Cool, thanks.
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Mendo, mi amigo, I'm not sure I understand the gist of your post.
I was definitely deadly serious with my comments in my previous post. The "Crappy Water" thread turned out to be THE most substantial thread I've seen yet in 1.5 years on this forum.
And based on T-Lady's comments, she did nothing extraordinary to her water other than clean the filters while Karl XIII tried a litany of recommended chemical methods and his water actually got worse.
For simplicity, I offer this:
T-Lady's starting water in her HotSpring Spa:
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/198ed459.jpg)
T-Lady's ending water after 3-5 days (not specified) filtration:
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/3e9f6618.jpg)
Karl XIII's starting water in his Caldera Spa:
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/3050073d.jpg)
Karl XIII's ending water after 2 days treatment and filtration:
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/e153b783.jpg)
To my strictly logical way of thinking, this filtration debate begins and ends right here.
Terminator
lol.....well...it depends it just might open up a whole new debate as to why a hi flow system that uses no pass on the low speed could be the way to go.....but I was just trying to suggest that the Sea Klear stuff is a great product that really does work and since its organic you will not hurt anything....
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Minerals can be dissolved in the water and depending on pH, and other minerals that they may be combined with, will or will not precipitate out. Karl's water could have iron but it may take the chemical reaction of chlorine to allow it to become visible. Products that sequester the iron and minerals are probably more critical to really getting all the iron out. Filtration time is another variable that was not considered in the experiment ;). So- no way can we compare Karl's tub to T-Lady's.
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lol.....well...it depends it just might open up a whole new debate as to why a hi flow system that uses no pass on the low speed could be the way to go.....but I was just trying to suggest that the Sea Klear stuff is a great product that really does work and since its organic you will not hurt anything....
Okee Dokee! ;D
Terminator
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Minerals can be dissolved in the water and depending on pH, and other minerals that they may be combined with, will or will not precipitate out. Karl's water could have iron but it may take the chemical reaction of chlorine to allow it to become visible. Products that sequester the iron and minerals are probably more critical to really getting all the iron out. Filtration time is another variable that was not considered in the experiment ;). So- no way can we compare Karl's tub to T-Lady's.
I'm not sold that the two situations are different, in fact they may be the same thing but just require different solutions (sorry, Bonibelle :-/, I like your line of thinking from these posts, however).
As Bonibelle suggested, Karl's situation occurred as the result of a chemical reaction. Accordingly, I'd imagine the density of the particulate suspended in the water to be VERY small. Nevertheless, because there's a LOT of it, it creates the color and clarity shift we see.
BUT, as Term suggested, Lady's tub OBVIOUSLY has something suspended in the water and, based on how "dark" it is, one could even describe it as "sediment" (God help ya 'Lady if you go through airport metal detectors after drinking that stuff...). It got there from being suspended in the water originally, NOT from a chemical reaction. So, again, we see a color and clarity shift.
So why did one clear up and the other didn't? Two reasons in my opinion -- the reaction in Karl's tub continued causing more particulate that may have been below filtration size while the particulate in 'Lady's tub did not continue to be produced and got caught by the filters and cleared.
I'm betting Karl could have "super" dosed his tub with a clarifying agent (something that creates a coagulation of suspended particles better known as “flocculent”) that would have caused that stuff to clump and filter out. I'm reminded of another thread a year or so ago where the water was tinged green and "super" dosing produced green flocculent in the filters proving something WAS "there." I'm thinking maybe why it was a continual problem was because copper was being produced as a result of chemical reactions occurring in the tub??
Food for thought....
Drewski
8)
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Drwski, that makes sense to me and it also may help answer the original question in the thread, about the particle size of the filters. Follow this logic....Hot Springs uses multiple filters (is it 5 in T-lady's tub?) so could the tri-X filters have a finer filtration with respect to the size of particles that can be filtered out (and that is why more filters are required to achieve the no bipass and keep the pumps running?) I am really curious to see if anyone finds a micron filtration rating on any of the filters, because I just think of them as being gross filters and the micron filters that I am familiar with are used to sterilize liquids
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I am really curious to see if anyone finds a micron filtration rating on any of the filters, because I just think of them as being gross filters and the micron filters that I am familiar with are used to sterilize liquids
I dont know anything about tri-x, but here's some stuff on standard unicel pleated filters and the disposable type that some people use. I'm still trying to decide if the Micropure will work for me, or really make a difference.
Micropure: 1 micron filtering, "94% efficient"
50sq ft pleated: 70 microns, "40% efficient"
I'm not suggesting that the disposables are the way to go, just throwing those numbers out for reference. I also dont know how those percentages are calculated. This is from hottubessentials.com
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I would think that a pump's efficiency would decrease IF the micron rating was too small. Filters start working better as they trap debris into their "holes", a 50 micron filter will filter smaller and smaller particles as it clogs up. Eventually it stops letting fluids (or air) through because the filter "holes" are too small.
My tub's filters are pleated, I don't know their micron size and my water is usually crystal clear unless I forget a dichlor dose. In a hospital setting they generally will have 3 or 4 filters of varying microns in a row and all of them eventually get clogged depending on the stuff in the water. The filters are put in series to protect the smallest micron filter size. I have seen water filters clog in 2 weeks because of the garbage in drinking water and this was in the 0.5 to 3 micron range.
Are the Tri- x filters spun type filters of are they pleated? Are these the ones that are supposed to be thrown into a dishwasher?
I find it almost impossible to believe that a tub's filter in a 1 micron or less range would last any amount of time or be reusable after cleaning organic waste.
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I find it almost impossible to believe that a tub's filter in a 1 micron or less range would last any amount of time or be reusable after cleaning organic waste.
The DONT last if you abuse them: I found this out. They are designed with bigger to smaller "holes" as you described, so that the water first goes through larger micron openings, eventually down to 1 micron.
With these, you cannot use enzymes, clarifiers, even stain and scale products. They "gunk" up the pores, and cannot be washed.
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Did anyone come up with the answer ?
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Did anyone come up with the answer ?
I've got one of the little people working on it. As soon as I know, I'll post it.
I'm guessing maybe 47 microns. Any other guesses?
Terminator
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I modified my post regarding % efficiency, since I accidentally reversed the numbers the first time.
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The DONT last if you abuse them: I found this out. They are designed with bigger to smaller "holes" as you described, so that the water first goes through larger micron openings, eventually down to 1 micron.
With these, you cannot use enzymes, clarifiers, even stain and scale products. They "gunk" up the pores, and cannot be washed.
I don't consider that abuse - that's my point. Unless you don't soak often I can't see a filter with a very small micron opening lasting too long.
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I don't consider that abuse - that's my point. Unless you don't soak often I can't see a filter with a very small micron opening lasting too long.
Their claim is that you dont NEED clarifiers/enzymes with those filters. Why the Stain and scale stuff is a problem, still a mystery to me. That being said, I'm going to see how it goes with a traditional pleated filter for now, since I dont want to be limited in what I can use in the tub. This was an interesting thing that a rep from Micropure sent me in regards to my high calcium question:
"Stain and scale reducer will hamper the filters effectiveness as well.
Our desire is to see less chemicals in spas, so I would recommend not
adding any Defender to your spa. The only sacrifice you are making is
shortening the life of your heater element and Arctic Spas uses a
special coating on their element to reduce scaling anyway. Heater
elements cost about $60 and you can easily put $60 of Defender in your
spa over a few years. Plus then you will be exposing your body to the
stain and scale remover (see attached spec sheet)."
Guess i sorta took this thread off course- sorry.
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I've got one of the little people working on it. Terminator
Ooompa Dooompa Oooompady Doo. ;D
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Ooompa Dooompa Oooompady Doo. ;D
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/c728b14a.jpg)
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Their claim is that you dont NEED clarifiers/enzymes with those filters. Why the Stain and scale stuff is a problem, still a mystery to me. That being said, I'm going to see how it goes with a traditional pleated filter for now, since I dont want to be limited in what I can use in the tub. This was an interesting thing that a rep from Micropure sent me in regards to my high calcium question:
"Stain and scale reducer will hamper the filters effectiveness as well.
Our desire is to see less chemicals in spas, so I would recommend not
adding any Defender to your spa. The only sacrifice you are making is
shortening the life of your heater element and Arctic Spas uses a
special coating on their element to reduce scaling anyway. Heater
elements cost about $60 and you can easily put $60 of Defender in your
spa over a few years. Plus then you will be exposing your body to the
stain and scale remover (see attached spec sheet)."
Guess i sorta took this thread off course- sorry.
Anne,
I'm sure ALL tubs need help once in a while and I would agree with you on the pleated filters. This is not a function of one tub is better than another in filtration but sometimes things can get out of hand in a tub (going on vacation for instance) and the filters need help.
I would NOT take the advice of a filter salesman - he wants to sell these things and put $$$ in his pocket - I would listen to your dealer or even the dealers here (sometimes with a grain of salt ;) ;D) on how to treat your water. Replacing a "great" filter every 5 weeks or so will put a lot of money in his pocket.
I don't know how much a heater element is or how much defender is but the less you have to work on replacing things the better IMO. Given the choice I would take using the chemical product vs replacing a heater in who knows how long.
I think you're making the right choice!
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Avoid Tri-x filters.
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Avoid Tri-x filters.
NO!
I plan on continuing to use them, enjoy them and tell all my friends about them.
Why?
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"I would NOT take the advice of a filter salesman - he wants to sell these things and put $$$ in his pocket - I would listen to your dealer or even the dealers here (sometimes with a grain of salt ) on how to treat your water. "
Agreed. I sent that quote to the Arctic guy who has been helping me "electronically" with my water, and said "I'll do whatever you recommend." For now, I'm having no trouble with the pleated type.
Can anyone comment on the real difference seen depending on the square footage of a filter? It would make sense that more surface area= better filtration. My filter is 50sq ft. Seems that some are as little as 25, and as much as 125? Are the "denser" ones harder to clean and riinse well?
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My filter is 50sq ft. Seems that some are as little as 25, and as much as 125? Are the "denser" ones harder to clean and riinse well?
Bigger is not always better. If you pack the filter with too much paper you're actually losing effective filtering area because it's almost lying on top of each other. There is a point of diminshing returns. Also, just because you have 50 sq ft and someone else talks about theirs being 125 don't assume they can be compared. One may be much taller than the other and thus you'll get more sq ft because it's taller even if they are equally dense per inch.
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Spatech- thanks for the advice, but I really love your avitar!!! LOL!!!!! That is new, right? Please dont tell me I have just been unobservant lately...... ;D
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So we still dont know for sure?
Chas, how bout it? How come there isnt a difinitve answer to the tri-x micron question? Won't Watkins tell you guys? I remember they wouldnt tell me when I called them when they first came out.
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Avoid Tri-x filters.
Nice pesamistic approach to your first 4 posts Guru. Very insiteful. ::)
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Avoid Tri-x filters.
Okay. If YOU Say so!
what else should I be doing? No need to explain, just shout out your declarations.
I'm waiting with baited breath.
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Spatech- thanks for the advice, but I really love your avitar!!! LOL!!!!! That is new, right? Please dont tell me I have just been unobservant lately...... ;D
He's actually had it for a while now, but I agree, it's great!
"A scratch?! Your arm's off!"
...
"I've had worse."
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Avoid Tri-x filters.
Is dey de Debil?
Terminator
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So we still dont know for sure?
Chas, how bout it? How come there isnt a difinitve answer to the tri-x micron question? Won't Watkins tell you guys? I remember they wouldnt tell me when I called them when they first came out.
Well, ok, I'll call the factory for you today. Why are you pressing for this number though? The things work great, I doubt they are THE deciding factor in buying a tub, if your spa came with them you'll get good service out of them - so why the big demand to have a number? Is this just a way to try to make a competitor look bad (or good as the case may be?)
What I have heard already is that part of the filter's ability to work well is due to the design of the pleats: they don't colapse upon one another, and they take advantage of the three-dimensional shape to add to the filtration. They are a unique design, a uniquie material, and a unique approach - none of which seems to be limited or dependant upon a micron number.
???
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I'm just keeping the original question alive. Way back on page 1 that was the question that was asked. Then 4 pages of banter followed. I just find it interesting that it's not a known fact by you guys. I suspect that they wont tell you because if the tri-x happens to allow larger particles to pass through then a traditional pleated filter, it could be exploited by the competitionand Watkins wouldnt allow that.
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Yeah, it'd be nice to know because if they are HS's best filters, then people must be happy with them, and they must work well....
So if their micron rating is very small, maybe that means that the number does deserve recognition.
If the micron rating is higher than we expected, then we just relax and put less weight into that number, realizing that lots of other factors (that Chas mentioned) make a filter work well.
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Well I'm still here and still waiting. I have another brand to try out tomorrow. I'll get back to you all when I am getting closer but I do hope that we can get an answer on this.
Thanks
Slingblade
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The answer is 47.
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Actually, its 42!!! ;)
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Actually, its 42!!! ;)
Are you sure about that? They said the answer was 47. 8)
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I think the answer to the question is 42, but no one ever figured out what the question was, which was why the plaent earth was "built."
Hopefully, I got the reference right, otherwise I look like an idiot (even more than normal :))
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I think the answer to the question is 42, but no one ever figured out what the question was, which was why the plaent earth was "built."
Hopefully, I got the reference right, otherwise I look like an idiot (even more than normal :))
You got it right. I was thinking people might think I was a random loony as well. ;D
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Hmmmm...
You HHGTTG fans just kill me... Have you ate at the RATEOTU?
:P
Drewski
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I'd like to make i clear that I was a fan of the original PBS series, and the book (sort of) but not the recent remake. I'm not that loony. :P
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Still no difinitive answer on how small of a particle those big holes in the tri axel filters will grab, but I'm sure as they get clogged, the particle size they grab is much smaller too. Odd that neither karl or t-lady chimed in on this post when the other thread was brought up, but I have a question that refers back to terminators comment about iron. W esort of know that Karls water has iron in it, because hisd water turned after shocking. We do not know if t-ladys well water is iron laden or if it's just a muddy well. Shallow well pumps tend to suck up whatever is in their way when they start to get low you know.
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The answer to "Life, the universe and everything" includes the filtration properties of Tri-ex filters as well.
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Back to the original question. I owned a Caldera Geneva Utopia and I liked it better than my present HotSpring Envoy. I did not notice any appreciable difference in filtration between to two and would not let such a nebulous feature sway my decision one iota. If you wet tested them both and you like the Caldera better, what are you waiting for?
Now with resect to nasty well water or other hard stuff that is not potable, the solution is to pre-filter the water. Unfortunately, the prefilter shown in this thread, and I own and use one of these myself, is probably not an adequate answer for very bad well water. There is a commercial multiple-bank, carbon based filtration system that really is the answer. These are used by companies that fill pools and spas in hard water areas. Here is South Florida, people on wells use this service for their pools and spas and the price is very nominal to have the company come out and fill your unit through their filtration system. I am thinking $30 or so for a pool.
Regards,
Bill
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Back to the original question. I owned a Caldera Geneva Utopia and I liked it better than my present HotSpring Envoy. I did not notice any appreciable difference in filtration between to two and would not let such a nebulous feature sway my decision one iota. If you wet tested them both and you like the Caldera better, what are you waiting for?
Now with resect to nasty well water or other hard stuff that is not potable, the solution is to pre-filter the water. Unfortunately, the prefilter shown in this thread, and I own and use one of these myself, is probably not an adequate answer for very bad well water. There is a commercial multiple-bank, carbon based filtration system that really is the answer. These are used by companies that fill pools and spas in hard water areas. Here is South Florida, people on wells use this service for their pools and spas and the price is very nominal to have the company come out and fill your unit through their filtration system. I am thinking $30 or so for a pool.
Regards,
Bill
Ya gotta apprectiate a post that includes "appreciable", "nebulous", & "iota" all in the same sentence. ;)
I know who my "Phone a Friend" is gonna be. ;)
Good Show Ole Boy!