Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: Bonibelle on April 20, 2006, 09:30:17 am
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We have friends that are (were) very seriously interested in a hot tub. They vacationed last week at a place that they have returned to for many years and one of the draws was the fantastic hot tub. I just knew they would come home ready to buy. I saw them at a baseball game last night and asked how they enjoyed vacation...one of the kids ended up with a very bad hot tub rash. He even missed school because the rash was so bad. The mother has tried to contact the rental office because she feels that they should have been responsible to assure the tub was "healthy" for her family. They are not returning her calls. I am wondering since this is not a huge public facility, but instead a private rental house, who should be responsible? The average renter wouldn't know about proper sanitization of the tub and they wouldn't know to expect someone to check that... it put a real damper on their vacation.
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Rental agency.
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Who ever the check was written out to took responsibility.
I doubt that anyone will get "Satisfaction" by reporting this, but to let the owners and rental company know this occured, hopefully they will do something to correct it so future guests can avoid this. (Assumeign the rash was caused by improper water maitainece),
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Gosh hate to hear that about this kid.
But this is probably one of the reasons most rental properties don't have tubs and probably a reason even less will have them in the future.
This resort we vacation at in Colorado had horses and a trampoline.
Last summer I noticed they were both gone.
When I asked the owner he said they had become "headaches of litigation" and it just wasn't worth it to offer them anymore. So many people had enjoyed them over the years.
Personally I would be leery of rental property tubs.
Heck I dont even sit in hotel bathtubs.
What is your friend seeking?
An apology? Free Rent? Money? Medical Bills Paid?
Hope everything turns out ok.
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Zep, I think she just wants someone to answer her and to assure them that the tub issue has been addressed so that no one else has a vacation ruined because of a problem with the tub. They are very nice people and are not sue happy nuts who expect anything but a phone call answered.
I told them this doesn't have to happen and when you have your own tub, it usually doesn't. I'm with you though, I don't want to go in any other tub (an I really don't want anyone but family in mine)...
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I would say the rental agency is responsible since they're the ones who maintain the property. Ultimately though it's the owner's problem. I wonder if there was a clause in the agreement that would make the renter soley responsible for everything.
When things go bad, owners need to know about it. Unfortunately, most people who rent a vacation house don't know who the owner(s) are. If the rental was paid by CC, maybe have your friends stop payment.
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I own two rental properties with hot tubs so I speak from experience. I've had 2 occasions where this issue has arose.
Things like this have no definate answer. In my case, the kids, sadly, had a reaction to the chemicals used to maintain the hot tub, not poor water.
In the rental agreement, I have a clause that states kids under the age of 10 are not allowed in the hot tub, and all persons who enter, do so at their own risk. I also list the chemicals that are used and how often they are added.
Please remember, it may not be poor water management that causes hot tub rash. I've read where people get it from just untreated hot water, such as a whirlpool dip at a rehabilation clinic.
Lastly, parents must take responisbility for their kids. Kids and hot tubs usually don't mix.
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Snyper, I was hoping you would reply. When I say kids, I guess I should clarify, they are teenagers, not little kids. (and actually both bigger than me)I think you are very wise with your rental information. I think this happened toward the end of the vacation and I guess they had used the tub on so many previous vacations to the same place, so they were really surprised when he developed the rash. I know you and I have discussed how to keep our tubs clear and I said I shock more frequently based on use. I think it would be difficult to determine how often renters would use a tub and therefore more difficult to prevent the rash. These kids could have spent hours in the tub, who knows?
My friend just wants to be sure they are aware of the problem and they correct if before the next people jump in! I thought it was a little odd that the other family members didn't get it though???
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Boni,
Just remember, certain people react to different enviroments.
It has happen to my wife and I. She broke out and I didn't. Found out her tolerance to bromine is lower than mine.
For the reasons mentioned in this thread, there isn't a chance in hell that I would get in a public hot tub.
FYI - The tubs at my rental property are changed before a new customer arrives.
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Only one kid was affected? Nobody else?
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I don't know all the details but one son must have had a bad rash since he missed school. Like I said maybe he stayed in a real long time. The parents and another son were fine. Maybe, like Snyper said, he was more sensitive. It is very encouraging to know you are that concerned about your renters, Snyper.
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Blame it on these guys. They're the ones responsible.
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/5ecf4502.jpg)
Terminator
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Blame it on these guys. They're the ones responsible.
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/14fc1955.jpg)
Terminator
Term,
Roger and Guy aren't gonna be happy with you passing their picture around on the internet. ;D
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But they said it was a Hot Springs tub, oh did I forget to say that? Isn't HS the only one with the little tinkle water feature?
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Term,
Roger and Guy aren't gonna be happy with you passing their picture around on the internet. ;D
Haaaaahaaaahaaaa!!!!! ;D ;D ;D
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But they said it was a Hot Springs tub, oh did I forget to say that? Isn't HS the only one with the little tinkle water feature?
Hotspring Spas starring [glb]"The Little Tinkle"[/glb]waterfall. ;D
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But they said it was a Hot Springs tub, oh did I forget to say that? Isn't HS the only one with the little tinkle water feature?
Ooooohhhhh, you set me up big time!!!
Terminator
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Term,
Roger and Guy aren't gonna be happy with you passing their picture around on the internet. ;D
I thought Roger and Guy were the NO BYPASS BOYS
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I am dragging this thread up again because I have an update. I seriously don't know what kind of tub was involved, just messing with Term on that one. but I saw my friend last night and she told me that the whole family ended up with the rash. One son missed school and they all required medical attention. The medical bills
above her insurance were over $200.00 (I am guessing that must include a deductable and prescriptions). And a very nasty case of the rash... They were so excited about renting this property because they loved the hot tub. They were even ready to buy one at home....now they are just really upset because they have called and called and the only response that they got was if they didn't have a specific test performed when they went to the doctor, the rental agency would take no responsibility. Don't know what that test would be but since the doctor immediately recognized the rash, I would think that should be enough proof. My friend said she saw one person come to check the tub while she was there and they never tested or added anything...Isn't there some law or criteria set for tubs in public places that would also include tubs at rental properties? I am trying hard to convince them that this won't happen at home...but what a way to end your vacation!
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Bear in mind that I have done this so long I can almost tell the pH, TA and Free Chlorine in a tub with a glance - maybe a quick sniff to back up my hunch...
BUT, I simply will not get in any spa I don't own. There have been times when we rented a place with a tub, and since only my family was going to get in, I got in.
BUT NOT BEFORE TESTING THE THING AND ADDING CHLORINE.
If I can't carry the chorine because we fly or I just can't bring it along, I ask houskeeping for some. If they will not provide it, I just say 'no.'
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(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/d3eea495.jpg)
That is a very good policy to follow. Many illicit, immoral, and perverse acts have been known to occur in jacuzzis. If you are not taking responsibility for your own protection, then who will do it for you? The Spa Fairy? I think not.
You should always be wary of using a public bathing receptacle, period.
Sanitary wishes and discharge free dreams....
The Spa Fairy
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Is it possible to have a hot tub within the acceptable sanitary limits (whatever that might be) and there are still folks out there that might get a rash?
I would think that it is possible.
There are a lot of chemical products out there and somebody is bound to be allergic to some of them even if they are used properly.
I'm not sure exactly what the law is in your state. It's unfortunate that your friends got a rash, but unless you can "prove" the owners were negligent (according to your state's definition) then I doubt there is any legal recourse. Having said that, I might push for a refund or voucher.
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IMO, people need to take responsibility for their actions and be accountable. This isn't a commercial facility and instead a rental property where there are no "professionals" looking after this spa and having to follow strict guidelines. Therefore, the end user is responsible for assuring a safe environment for their family. No differnt than letting your kids enter any unknown. The parents need to assure safe conditions.
I don't believe there's any grey area here given the circumstances though I do hate to hear this has happened.
Steve
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Is it possible to have a hot tub within the acceptable sanitary limits (whatever that might be) and there are still folks out there that might get a rash?
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/d3eea495.jpg)
Some poor souls do have sensitive skin conditions that may be aggravated by the combination of hot water along with whatever sanitizing agents are used within. Psoriasis or exczema symptoms may flare up in some cases.
I am not aware of anyone being specifically "allergic" to dichloro, but I would defer to the good Dr. Spa in this matter as I seem to recall that he has addressed this issue somewhere before.
Rash free wishes and scratch free dreams....
The Spa Fairy
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I would agree with you Steve, if there was any precautionary information given to this family. they had been to this rental before and one of the reasons that they went back was because they enjoyed the tub so much. Just like you would expect a heater in a rental unit to be safe and got give off carbon monoxide..I think you should expect the spa to be monitored and cared for because a spa HAS to be properly maintained. It's hard to put the responsibility on someone who has no idea of how to take care of a hot tub. Until I seriously thought of buying a tub, I had never heard of hot tub rash and it took some convincing before
I believed it was Pseudomonas that caused it. I will never go in a public spa or in a spa at a rental property but that is only because I know what I do now. Initially,
all that my friend really wanted was to talk to someone who would assure them that the issue has been addressed. At this point, she may want some compensation for her medical bills since they have been so rude to her.
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IMO, people need to take responsibility for their actions and be accountable. This isn't a commercial facility and instead a rental property where there are no "professionals" looking after this spa and having to follow strict guidelines. Therefore, the end user is responsible for assuring a safe environment for their family. No differnt than letting your kids enter any unknown. The parents need to assure safe conditions.
I don't believe there's any grey area here given the circumstances though I do hate to hear this has happened.
Steve
I'm not so sure I'd go quite that far. Afterall, the owner's are held to a higher standard because they are advertising the hot tub as a benefit and feature of the property (and charging). The owners are going to be held to a higher standard than if it was a non-commercial use of the hot tub (i.e. at a neighbor's house).
The legal test will undoubtedly revolve around the steps in which the owner took to insure the hot tub met the acceptable standard of sanitation. The owner probably has a log book (I would have one if I were the owner) of what the steps are to keep the tub sanitized and when are the chemicals added, etc. If they can show that they are diligent in maintaining a sanitary tub, then I would say they've met the test and won't be determined to have been negligent.
If they have a hot tub, invite folks to use it, charge them, and don't sanitize the tub....watch out. The patron has a reasonable expectation that the tub will be suitable for personal use. That's not unreasonable.
Have your friends (or your friends' lawyer) request to view the log book of the hot tub. If they produce a log book, ask for a refund or voucher. If they don't have a log book, ask for the name of their attorney.
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Though I do agree that if you are renting a property with a hot tub, it should come with clear instructions on its safe operation and responsible owners would readily provide that information. That said, if it doesn't, the users need to take it upon themselves to find out.
Rent a Skidoo, a car, a boat and use it incorrectly and who is at fault? It started many years ago with the lady who spilled hot coffee on herself and sued the company AND WON!
We are a society where very few are willing to take responsibilty for their actions and it's always someone elses fault.
I do agree that these people need to find out legally who is at fault and if there is regulations for a rental property with a hot tub, though that's why there's lawyers.... They are generally the only one that wins in the end... :-/
Did your friends ask about the operation of the spa from the person/company they rented from Bonibelle?
Steve
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IMO, people need to take responsibility for their actions and be accountable. This isn't a commercial facility and instead a rental property where there are no "professionals" looking after this spa and having to follow strict guidelines.
Steve
Gotta disagree with you yet again oh my northern frozen brained friend. This is a rental property, therefore commercial. One renting a place advertising a hot tub can reasonably expect it to be in safe working order.
As it appears there is a "rental office", this indicates that this is more that simply someone occasionally renting out their vacation home. The rental office should be responsible for being sure EVERYTHING in regards to the rental is in working and safe order.... And this includes the hot tub.
That being said, the fact that the entire family used the spa, and everyone got the rash, in itself isn't proof it was caused by the spa...... most likely yes, but there's really only circumstantial evidence.
Additionally, due to any further liability issues or litigation, the rental company could really do nothing but deny there was ever a problem.
Welcome to America, the most litigious country in the world (somewhere I heard a fact that there's more attorneys in the US than the rest of the world combined)
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It's a different scenario "IF" this property is classified as commercial or semi-commercial. Then yes my sun baked friend, there would be specific guidelines in place to prevent this and the management company could be held accountable.
I know I'm on the right track when you disagree with me! ;)
Steve
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Though I do agree that if you are renting a property with a hot tub, it should come with clear instructions on its safe operation and responsible owners would readily provide that information. That said, if it doesn't, the users need to take it upon themselves to find out.
Steve
You think they got the rash because they misused it? I'm no dermatologist, but I wouldn't say it was caused by misuse.
I also bet the owners have housekeeping (or somebody) clean and sanitize the tub. That's about all they can do. So long as they didn't use some crazy chemicals and demonstrate a history of cleaning the spa I'd say the patrons are S.O.L.
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I think all my friends wanted was to assure that the next renters wouldn't be in for the same treat...but when they explained what had happened, the rental agency wouldn't talk to them any more and would not answer calls. I am willing to bet if you did some sort of survey you would find the majority of people who don't own a hot tub have NO clue about how to access the condition of one. So I don't think it is really fair to assume renters should know when they can safely use the tub. In this case the tub was the draw that made these people select this particular house to rent. I don't know what the answer is but I know they won't be renting that house any more.
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I agree its not the renters responsibility to make sure a spa is safe to use. Thats part of what you pay for when you rent in a situation like that. One thing you may want to have them try to get a response. In our area the state health dept. can cite rental companies or operators of commercial pools and spas for not maintaining their spas properly. Some areas are lax on this but most areas have regulations on these types of pools and spas.
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"I also bet the owners have housekeeping (or somebody) clean and sanitize the tub."
You bet? How much? The way I see it, if you walk into a rental cottage, and the palce is clean, the bathroom, the kitchen, clean sheets and towels........... Wouldn't one pretty much assume that the spa has also been properly cared for? I highly doubt the renters in this case could have done anything to cause themselves the rash. I also belive it to be the responsibility of the rental company to provide some type of instructions for safe operation of the spa while they were there, or at least come by every day to sanitize it (I actually know of a hotel with a hot tub in every room that goes through all of this with their guests, including sanitizing the spa every day..... This all falls upon hopusekeeping.......... by the way, they didn't always do this...... till the law suit :-).
"I think all my friends wanted was to assure that the next renters wouldn't be in for the same treat...but when they explained what had happened, the rental agency wouldn't talk to them any more and would not answer calls."
Completely understandable. As soon as there's any indication of any possiblity of a lawsiut, the defendant to be is probably wise to completely shut up. Yes, I understand they only wanted some kind of assurances, but these day, who knows how far it might go........"Well I only wanted them to tell me they were sorry twice. They only said it once so now I'm suing for a million bucks" (that's US$ steve ;D ). Any respnse by the rental company could be considered an admission of guilt.
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One of my customers is a large chain of condo rentals and their policy is to drain the spas in their units after each rental. Even if its only an overnighter.
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Talking to my friend again..apparently this tub had not been used since last November and was filled before they arrived. I am just wondering if water may have been hanging out in the pipes and the tub wasn't properly shocked or sanitized to take care of the bioburden. I am guessing there is a special "start up" process for tubs that have been stored for a period of time. Maybe that was the problem ???
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Talking to my friend again..apparently this tub had not been used since last November and was filled before they arrived. I am just wondering if water may have been hanging out in the pipes and the tub wasn't properly shocked or sanitized to take care of the bioburden. I am guessing there is a special "start up" process for tubs that have been stored for a period of time. Maybe that was the problem ???
That is a real possibility. Another common thing with those types of spas. They drain the main body of water and dont blow out the lines or remove the filters and then they sit there wet growing who knows what and the next lucky customer gets to brew in a stew of bacteria. In my opinion it shouldnt have been used until it had been treated for several days to make sure it was maintainig a safe sanitizer residual.
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I tried to tell them...Just buy your own spa and save the rent money... ;D ;D ;D at least you'll know who was soakin' before you!
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I tried to tell them...Just buy your own spa and save the rent money... ;D ;D ;D at least you'll know who was soakin' before you!
My wife gets mad at me because when we go on the road I pack a test kit and before I'll let her or the kids go out and use the pool or spa at a hotel or motel I test it and I'll bet you about 80percent of the time it doesnt test out good.
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Good for you sharkman...My husband and kids call me the spazowoman...I am always worried when the safety and health of my family is left up to someone else. You are right on target and because of that you would not have to experience the mess that my friends have...By the way, I am taking your advise...more wine...it's Friday night!
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You think they got the rash because they misused it? I'm no dermatologist, but I wouldn't say it was caused by misuse.
Then I respectfully suggest you have little understanding of watercare. You and your spouce get into a hot tub with perfect balance and a safe sanitizer level. 1 person in a hot tub uses 1ppm of sanitizer every 15 minutes. You're both in there for an hour and by the time you get out, there's a zero reading. Now what happens for the duration of your stay and who's responsible?
Pucks in a dispenser will not maintain safe levels for a heavily used spa so now what? That is why it would be considered "misuse" and though I agree that the average person has zero concept of maintaining water in hot tub, they must be held accountable if they didn't ask for proper operating instructions to maintain a safe environment in the spa.
Should the owners of the property have made this very clear? YOU BET! If they didn't though (which is obviously the case here) then it's up to them to find out. I'm not saying my opinion is 100% right, but it's still my opinion... ;)
Steve
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Talking to my friend again..apparently this tub had not been used since last November and was filled before they arrived. I am just wondering if water may have been hanging out in the pipes and the tub wasn't properly shocked or sanitized to take care of the bioburden. I am guessing there is a special "start up" process for tubs that have been stored for a period of time. Maybe that was the problem ???
Very likely my dear...
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okay, I'm late on this one, BUT....
IMO, if you invite people to rent your property, they SHOULD be able to assume that everything's "up to snuff". That means, they step out on the deck, it doesn't collapse (except those little balcony decks when you put 15 people on them and they're meant for maybe FOUR tops?), the lights don't start fires in the house, the doors and windows all work properly, the toilet flushes, the tub is hot but "safe" otherwise.....it's something that SHOULD be able to be assumed. If the tub chemistry is at all in question, there SHOULD have been a test kit, single use packs of necessary sanitizer and flyer explaining any chemical needs in an obvious place or handed to them with the keys. Some people would then say "forget the tub, I thought it would be ready to use right away!" instead of trying to monkey with chemicals and testing. Others might try this out, OR....best yet, "if the readings don't fall within this area, please CALL THE MANAGEMENT and we'll be happy to help!"
All in the name of "enjoy your stay and come again!"
Screw the hot coffee type lawsuits.
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In Tennessee, it is my understanding that owners of cabins with hot tubs are required to drain and refil the tub every time there is a new tennant (what a pain).
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I hope they also wash the towles and change the bed sheets too.