Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: BearBath on April 30, 2006, 05:15:06 pm
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Hi All,
I have been happily reading about other's problems and solutions and was feeling a bit smug that I was "going to school" on everybody else. I have not no major problems since my HS Grandee was delivered Thanksgiving this last year. (Except the stupid SpAudio!)
However, today I went to do the Renew weekly shock and found some white flakes floating on the surface of the filter area. I shocked anyway. I went back about an hour later to close up the cover and there was more flakes. I removed one of the filters and alot of flakes came spilling out of the filter. I shut the whole thing down, took out all the filters and now have them soaking in the filter clean solution. Anybody seen this before? It is like my HS developed a case of Dandruff! Am I just seeing undissolved Renew? Seems like it just dissolved before.
Cheers,
Bearbath
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I would bet you have water mold.
The way to get rid of it is to shock with Chlorine. Run the level up to around 10 ppm, and keep it there for a day or two. This will require adding more dichlor every four or five hours.
Pull the filters out and rinse them, put them back in. Repeat this until they no longer give off water mold as you rinse them. This could be a week.
Use a hose to siphon out any of the flakes that you see in the bottom of the filter area when you are rinsing off the filters. Very important.
Also net or siphon out any flakes you spot floating around in the tub.
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I agree with Chas. Following is Watkins Spa cleansing process, I believe adapted from the NSPI procedure:
Chemical Cleansing Procedure (CCP)
WATKINS MANUFACTURING CORP.
For HotSprings, Tiger River, Hot Spot, Caldera & Solana Portable Spas
Filter Cleaning & Chemical Cleansing Set-up
1. Cartridge Filters: Remove the filter cartridge(s) and either clean or replace. To clean cartridge(s), first use a filter cleaner as per label directions. After rinsing the filter cartridge(s), completely submerge the cartridge(s) in a 1/10 dilution of sodium hypochlorite (liquid bleach) and water for two hours. Inspect and clean the filter housing. Install filter cartridge(s) after spa decontamination is complete.
WARNING: Contains sodium hydrochlorite. Causes substantial, but temporary eye injury. Harmful if swallowed. May irritate skin. Do not get in eyes or on clothing. For prolonged use, wear gloves.
Note: For spas treated with polyhexamethylene Biguanide (Biguanide, PHMB, i.e. BaquaSpaTM), sanitizer, drain and refill the spa prior to adding any chlorine.
2. Raise the water level in the spa to 1/2 inch above the high water mark, and remove pillows if possible.
3. Push in the JET button (JET 1 button, also the JET 2 button for the Grandee, Landmark , Paradise and Utopia series spas). The JET pump(s) will be activated for approximately one hour.
Operational Note: For the Hot Spot and most Highland series spas, pushing the JET button twice will activate the high-speed mode of the jet pump.
Super Chlorination and Neutralization
4. Add at least 100 ppm chlorine to the spa into the filter compartment while the jet(s) are operating.
Ounces per Ounces per Ounces per
250 gallons 350 gallons 500 gallons
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Sodium Dichloroisocyanurate (56%) 6.25 8.75 12.50
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5. During the super-chlorination period, rotate the SmartJet® lever(s) through each of the operating position for HotSprings and Tiger River spas, or place the Power Diverter(s) in the center (90o) or Combo position for Caldera spas. Letting the spa water circulate (with jets on) for equal periods of time. For example, if your spa has 4 operating positions, leave the lever on each position for approximately five to ten minutes.
Operational Note: The Grandee®, Landmark®, and Jetsetter® SmartJet® levers are designed to operate in the 3 o’clock and 9 o’clock positions. The Vanguard®, Sovereign®, and Prodigy® SmartJet® levers are designed to operate in the 3 o’clock, 6 o’clock, 9 o’clock and 12 o’clock positions.
6. For the first 60 minutes, do not cover spa with the spa cover.
7. Neutralize the chlorine in the spa water with a 16-oz. bottle of Hydrogen Peroxide (3%). Additional Hydrogen Peroxide may be necessary.
WARNING: Hydrogen Peroxide, 3% U.S.P., For External Use, Topically to the skin and mucous membranes. Keep Out of Eyes.
8. Circulate the spa water for 10 minutes, during the chlorine neutralization process.
9. Stop the circulation by turning the jet(s) off.
10. Drain the spa water to remove any excess water and cleaner.
11. Clean the spa shell with an approved surface cleaner (i.e. SoftScrubTM), and rinse off surfaces to remove cleaner. Remember to remove any approved cleaner off the surface of the Redwood, Everwood, or Sherwood spa skirt immediately with water.
Water Replacement and Treatment
12. Refill the spa with water; replace the filter, which has been chemically sanitized or use new filter cartridge(s).
13. Follow the Start-up and Refill procedure according to the Water Quality and Maintenance Section in your Hot Springs/Tiger River/Hot Spot/Caldera/or Solana Owner’s Manual.
It's old so some of the models are older and new ones are not addressed. If this hard to read, IM me with your e-mail and I can send you an attachment that is easier to read.
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Wow! Fast reply, Chas! Thanks!
I was just searching back in the history. I always forget to change the number of days to look back and found that there was a prior "White flakes post". I have a backup set of filters and I think I will use them, since my original set is now soaking in filter clean solution.
Any idea what might have caused this to happen? I've been pretty diligent about everything but doing a chemical clean of the filters. I just rinse them out every month or so.
I don't think I have anything to skim the water with, so I'm stuck with using the filters. Will that work?
Thanks again for the help!
bearBath
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Tell us about your maintainence program. Do you use any chlorine or are you attempting to go chlorine free?
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Yikes! Do I really have to go through that whole decomtamination process? Seems pretty extreme, but I will do it if I have to!
How about if I super shock (10 oz of Spa 56) and let the system run for 1 hour rotating the diverter valves and without the filters? (Since I just put them in the chemical cleaner)
The whole Hydrogen Peroxide and drain is more than I have time to do today. Will the super chlorinate hold it until the filters soak overnight? Or should I risk contaminating my new backup set of filters?
Worried,
BearBath
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Yikes! Do I really have to go through that whole decomtamination process? Seems pretty extreme, but I will do it if I have to!
How about if I super shock (10 oz of Spa 56) and let the system run for 1 hour rotating the diverter valves and without the filters? (Since I just put them in the chemical cleaner)
The whole Hydrogen Peroxide and drain is more than I have time to do today. Will the super chlorinate hold it until the filters soak overnight? Or should I risk contaminating my new backup set of filters?
Worried,
BearBath
My best guess is super shocking and running the pumps and moving the diverters should do the trick. It couldn't hurt to try.
Where do you live, BearBath? Who is your dealer?
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I use the ozonator and the silver ion filter gizmo. I add 1-2 oz Spa56 after each use or a couple of times a week if nobody is using it. I shock with 4-5 oz of Renew once a week on the weekend or if I have been away and let the spa run for an hour. I check the pH and Cl levels with a paper strip and adjust every couple of weeks.
I rinse the filters about once every 6 weeks or if they start looking clogged with pine needles. (A huge pine tree is over the spa)
How did I do?
BearBath
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I live in upstate NY(Rochester) and my dealer is Clover Pools and Spas. I have not used them much since they have been only somewhat useful on water chemistry issues.
BearBath
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my best description of white water mold: looks like pieces of wet tissue paper in the water. If that's the case, you'll have to BLAST IT!
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The cleansing proceedure is for Hot Tub Rash or folliculitus.
You don't need to do all of that for water mold.
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These flakes are too small to be like tissue paper, but they are very soft and just smear if I rub them between my thumb and first finger. I took the pillows out and put in 10 Oz of Spa56. I have Jet 1 and Jet 2 on now and will let them go for an hour. Am I doing any damage by not having filters in place?
Sigh,
BearBath
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nope.
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Wow, 1-2 oz after each use. That seems like a lot of chlorine.
I use the ozonator and the silver ion filter gizmo. I add 1-2 oz Spa56 after each use or a couple of times a week if nobody is using it. I shock with 4-5 oz of Renew once a week on the weekend or if I have been away and let the spa run for an hour. I check the pH and Cl levels with a paper strip and adjust every couple of weeks.
I rinse the filters about once every 6 weeks or if they start looking clogged with pine needles. (A huge pine tree is over the spa)
How did I do?
BearBath
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It is usually one ounce if it was just me or just my spouse. If all three of us are in or the kids had friends in, or it has just been awhile, I put in 2 oz.
As I wrote that I realized that I mean one/two scoop. I have been assuming that is one/two ounces. Probably should check that?
BearBath
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It is usually one ounce if it was just me or just my spouse. If all three of us are in or the kids had friends in, or it has just been awhile, I put in 2 oz.
As I wrote that I realized that I mean one/two scoop. I have been assuming that is one/two ounces. Probably should check that?
BearBath
It sounds like you are overdoing the chlorine. Look at the back of your filter lid or your owner's manual for Watkins' instructions. Add chlorine just before using rather than after.
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I did haul out the digital scale and verified that one sccop is an ounce. Why would too much chlorine cause the white mold? Seems like it would cause less chance of a mold growing?
I just tested the water. I'm reading 10 PPM Free chlorine, but the rest of the chemistry is all messed up. I am down at 0 PPM on Alc and the pH strip is purple, which I don't even see on the scale! The Calcium hardness is down at 100 PPM. I know that these things affect each other. What next? I'm still waiting overnight for the filter cleaner to work on the filters, or should I use my spare unused filters now? Do I try and adjust the rest of the chemistry of wait for the Chlorine to do its thing?
What a mess!
BearBath
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Too much chlorine will not cause the mold.
High chlorine count will mess up test strips. Wait until chlorine is down before you stress TA, pH and hardness.
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The filters soaked overnight and are squeeky clean. That stuff works great? I rinsed them, then soaked them in hot water for an hour or so to leach out the chemicals and rinsed them again. I put them back in the spa and turned on the jets. Looking back at the thread, CHAS recommended putting more chlorine in, so I will top that up as well.
Do I need to put the filters back in the filter cleaning solution? or can I just rinse them when I get back from work? I understand that I am trying to rid the tub of any more bits of the mold and that that is sticking to the filters right now. When do I address the high chlorine levels?
Thanks again for all the advice/help!
BearBath
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first off, if BearBath is overdoing the chlorine, is it really mold that's forming? Isn't it possible it's a sticker or some other bit that managed to flake off into the tub?
Secondly.....at what point should BearBath (or any of us in a similar situation) just drain the tub and start over instead of trying to use MORE chemicals to get the levels to an acceptable level? ???
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I live in upstate NY(Rochester) and my dealer is Clover Pools and Spas. I have not used them much since they have been only somewhat useful on water chemistry issues.
BearBath
Hi Bearbath! I live in Rochester too. I've had bad luck with Clover on several occasions, I like Hotsprings but wish there was a better dealer for them in the area. Pettis Pools in Fairport is great, and I use Ace Swim and Leisure for some things since they're close to my house. You could always bring your water in to either one of them for some advice.
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OMG - you're right. Check the sticker in the center of the cover!
It may have fallen apart into the tub.
Forgot all about that one.
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I will try Pettis instead. They are close by. Thanks for the suggestion!
The sticker/label is still there. I don't think that is the problem. Since I have been at work all day, I am going to run the clean cycle to get any floating bits stuck onto the filter, then again put it in the cleaning solution, but only for an hour.
By the way. After using the filter cleaning solution, I rinsed the filters, then soaked the filters for about 45 minutes in clean water and rinsed them again. I still had some foaming when i ran the jets. What do I need to do to get all the cleaning solution off the filters?
Heavy sigh,
BearBath
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I believe the solution to cleaning the filters is to wash, rinse, rinse, rinse.......and rinse some more, when you think the residue is all gone......? Guess it takes as much water to FULLY clean the filters as it does to fill a tub.... ;)
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Do you have TriX filters? If so, I am a fan of the dishwasher.
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I do have Tri-X filters. I tried the dishwasher once but the cycle takes a long time and I am trying to get the filters back in the spa quickly.
How many times do I have to do this filter wash, Superchlorinate, filter wash cycle? Didn't the first superchlorinate kill the G@$#$D&*^ mold? Seems like it would have accomplished that!
I'm starting to think that it would have been easier to just drain the tub and start all over again!
Thanks for the advice!
BearBath
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I do have Tri-X filters. I tried the dishwasher once but the cycle takes a long time and I am trying to get the filters back in the spa quickly.
How many times do I have to do this filter wash, Superchlorinate, filter wash cycle? Didn't the first superchlorinate kill the G@$#$D&*^ mold? Seems like it would have accomplished that!
I'm starting to think that it would have been easier to just drain the tub and start all over again!
Thanks for the advice!
BearBath
BearBath, all of the procedures outlined here are intended to cleanse the plumbing system, NOT to KILL what is being referred to as MOLD. Referring to it as "mold" could be misleading, as it is not a living substance, thus we are not trying to KILL it with chlorine. However, it is commonly referred to a "paper mold".
The material you see is also commonly referred to as "flakes" and is inorganic, so it is not harmful, just a nusiance to clean. It attatches to and accumulates in the interior of the water system, (the plumbing). The super chlorination process that has been described here is intended to cleanse the interior of the plumbing, so dumping your water and starting over is not addressing the problem and an excercise of futility, thus the wrong thing to do.
The problem is not in the water, that is messenger, or the the delivery system where you see it. The material is adhereing to the internal plumbing where it is breaking off into the water until it is cleansed or eliminated.
Simply rinsing your filters of the material and putting them back in to capture more is sufficient until your water meets your satisfaction once again, then a through cleaning is in order.
While sellers are comfortable recommending the diswasher for cleaning filters, some are opposed to putting them in the diswasher. I believe it to be more of a simplistic approach to cleaning so many filters, which also can be a chore. I note the HS instructions referenced here do describe a recommended decontamination method that does not utilize the diswasher.
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OMG - you're right. Check the sticker in the center of the cover!
It may have fallen apart into the tub.
Forgot all about that one.
It's not water mold! It's the tag from the inside of the cover. I had the same concern months ago and Chas suggested checking that and my tag was all but gone!
What little was left crumbled in my hand and was exactly what was floating in my water.
Ok... I see where you said the tag is still there. I would cut it off anyway.
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Is one ounce by volume (as in a 12 oz beer), the same as one ounce of mass as in a five pound dumbell)? Or are you mixing your oz's? They could be about the same. I dunno. However when I measure out an ounce of dicholr, I use a measuring spoon which is volume.
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If it is inorganic, where does it come from to accumulate in the plumbing? I have NO interest in repeating this exercise. With five filters, this is painful to take them all out, exhaustively spray each pleat of each filter, then rinse them again and put them in. I'm not complaining (or maybe I am ;D) just making the point that I would like to avoid a replay. What does chlorine do that causes them to detach from the plumbing?(Ie, why super chlorinate?) I thought that chlorine was an active sanitizer to kill organic compounds? MPS allowed the inorganic stuff to outgas and remain in low levels?
This stuff is complicated!!!
Oh...and I did take the paper tag off. No need to create more problems later! Thanks for the advice!!!
As to ounces, I believe that this stuff is measured by weight rather than volume. It does not say on the instructions. I measured a long handles scoop and one scoop is one ounce by weight. It looks to be about two tablespoons by volume?
BearBath
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How about it, crew? Is it organic or inorganic? I have been running the chlorine levels up, and I just assumed this was to kill something organic off? If it isn't, could I have just solved this by doing lots of filter washing? I'm sure I'm not the only one to wonder how this stuff forms? Chas et al? Any knowledge that could be passed here would be great!
Cheers,
BearBath
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"White water mold" is actually biofilm, an organic substance. Biofilms form when bacteria attach to the walls of the pipes or the insides of the filter and produce a slime coating to protect themseleves.
"4. Add at least 100 ppm chlorine to the spa into the filter compartment while the jet(s) are operating. "
This is what needs to be done to break up that protective coating and destroy the bacteria inside. Anything less, and you are merely wounding the biofilm, not destroying it.
The chlorine level should be brought up to 3-5ppm after using the spa to bring the bacteria to a safe level. If you ever go more than 4 days without using the spa and adding chlorine, you should bring the chlorine level to 3-5ppm 6 hours before using the spa.
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How about it, crew? Is it organic or inorganic? I have been running the chlorine levels up, and I just assumed this was to kill something organic off? If it isn't, could I have just solved this by doing lots of filter washing? I'm sure I'm not the only one to wonder how this stuff forms? Chas et al? Any knowledge that could be passed here would be great!
Cheers,
BearBath
It's pretty cool we can determine what it is from the comfort or our computers.
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er, I'm going to go all biologist on you guys, so sorry if you did not REALLY want to know this:
Bacteria belong to their own Kingdom, Monera (with other one celled organisms)
Molds are Fungi (again, its own Kingdom)- more closely related to mushrooms than bacteria, actually.
So yes, your mold is organic, but no, it is not bacterial, unless people are using the word "mold" really loosely.
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unless people are using the word "mold" really loosely.
That would be the case. For more information, here is a link.
http:// http://www.edstrom.com/Resources.cfm?doc_id=23
From the description of the sanitization method, this seems like the case. I did not see where the amount of chlorine was being measured in ppm, only ozs. Also, I forgot to mention that if you do add the bleach, you definitely should drain your water within 2 hours. After that, you may cause problems with your equipment.
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That would be the case. For more information, here is a link.
http:// http://www.edstrom.com/Resources.cfm?doc_id=23
From the description of the sanitization method, this seems like the case. I did not see where the amount of chlorine was being measured in ppm, only ozs. Also, I forgot to mention that if you do add the bleach, you definitely should drain your water within 2 hours. After that, you may cause problems with your equipment.
Serjical, thank you for the link and the insight. Dealers have all dealt with flakes and our consumers questions for a long time. But, when it comes to this department, dealers are on a "short street" and pretty much on their own. Their resources are limited to know, learn, or understand about what we call "flakes". They are something we have all know about and much of our information has been picked up "along the way" from a variety of resources including the solution to eliminate them.
Today I learned something new thanks to Serjical.
We have spent money trying to analyze and better understand what we call "paper mold" which is a loosely used reference to "mold" of which it is not. "Bacteria" cultures were always negative, but your link, and the information that it provides, gives additional insight to the origin and realities of "biofilm".
Thank you for sharing this information. :-*
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Well, now I am really confused. I brought the chlorine level up beyond the 10 PPM for several days. I have no way of testing 100 PPM!! Are you saying I need to get it up to 100 PPM for how long? Once it is up that high, how do you get it back down? I have been through many filter washes and was just starting to try and get the pH under control. Help!!
I did skim the article and it is very detailed. Thanks for posting that!
So I have a biofilm and bringing it up to high chlorine levels will kill the biofilm. Then I need to go through an exhaustive filtering again to separate the paper mold from the water?
BearBath
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You can get test strips that go up that high. We typically tell people between 4 and 6 gallons of bleach to get it up that high. Bleach is cheap, might as well go with 6. Only leave the water in for 1 hour. After that, drain the water aind rinse the filters. Go ahead and refill.
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Sorry if it was already said, I just skimmed the replies.
Calcium could be the cause.
With improper water balance, calcium can adhere to the heater tube and element. Quite often a water change can "shock" the calcium off of the metal surfaces and leave flakes in the tub.