Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: Bonibelle on April 11, 2006, 10:52:49 am
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After much discussion with my electrician, my electric provider and my neighbors who use far less electric than I do (even before the hot tub), I am looking at a device that I can use to monitor all my electric usage in my home. Has anyone had any experience with this or
does anyone have any thoughts about it? Drew...and Cola, I am particularly interested in what you guys think. I have contacted the company and am in the process of downloading the manual now. Thanks
The website is www.theenergydetective.com
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I know that the lurking EEs will tell you to just use a handy dandy ocilscope to measure your power, ::) but I think if you belive there is a signifcant issue, then this makes sense.
There are other units out ther, One is the Kill A Watt unit that is very affordable $35, but only measures each appliance individualy. It's limited to 120V and you'd have to go and test everything individualy. That could be good, that could be bad.
The other Whole house unit I found is this guy: ($200)
http://www.energymonitor.com/
The one you found looks neat as it will automacically calculate your rates. Of course, you'll have to turn everythiing off, and then have hubby turn things on individualy so you can see what each electrical applainces is using. (hey, after you figure everyhting out, you could re-sell it and get back some of your $. Which buy the way seems like a reasobale price).
I have a feeling, in this fourum alone you could "rent it out" and make a profit. 8) (I'm half serious here...)
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Home depot sells the box for a meter. Maybe put a meter onto the tub IF you think this is the culprit. I've read in the past that a bad motor can use up a lot more energy.
My suggestion to isolate where high energy usage is coming from is to turn off all the circuit breakers in the house. One by one, turn them on and visually see how quickly the meter spins. If you get a circuit breaker that makes it spin faster than "normal" then go to the items on that circuit breaker. Once you check all the breakers, you'll have a good idea the current draw on different circuits. Once you isolated each circuit - turn them all on and see how fast the meter spins, don't turn on circuit breaker for the tub for 24 hours (it's getting warmer out so there shouldn't be a problem with freezing), take an initial reading and take an ending reading and see without the tub what your use is. I would use the various household appliances that you use during the week just to get them to run - dishwasher, washer, dryer... It just may be coincidence that the tub was installed as something was going bad. Then do the same with the tub for 24 hours.
Clocks, radios and such don't draw too much but central AC have heaters in them (I shut mine off in the winter -also don't want any critters nesting in the warmth), self defrost refrigs and new culprits are big screen tv's and the like.
This is a cheap and easy way to isolate what's going on. If you find that without the tub your usage is still high - try using certain appliances on a day to day schedule and check the usage - run vacuum today and check usage, run dishwasher tommorrow and check usage...
Just my $0.02.
Good Luck!!
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Here is another whole house meter:
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2005/08/clipsal_cent-a-.php
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Have you had the power company check the accuracy of your meter? I assume that they've done this, as you indicated you spoke to them.
A while back, somone went thru what you were- and it turned out that their electric meter was running too fast, or was otherwise out of whack and over indicating power use.
I'd especially suspect something like that if you think your power use was excessive compared to your neighbors before your spa went on.
Unless you do have a lot of parasitic stuff hooked up, like a big aquarium heater setup, waterbed heater, multiple computers and TV's that are on a lot, freezers, especially older ones, etc.
Running an electric dryer vs a gas one in this area was costing us about $10 a month alone.
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Brewman, The electric company has supposedly issued a "dispute of billing" what ever the &^%$ that means. The first two times I called they didn't even want to help at all since I have a "high dollar item that uses tons of electric" or something like that. The last person I talked to listened as I had my electrician monitor the tub and from every indication, it doesn't appear that my tub would double my bill. I had the numbers and information from others in my area with similar homes, (but that also use electric to heat domestic hot water). None of them had bills as high as mine, even before I got the tub! The person at my electric company said someone would get in touch with me to check my meter but probably they would not look any further for appliances etc that would use excess electric. And it could be up to 3 months before they came out. So that is why I thought I should look into things on my own. Vinny, my electric meter is digital so it isn't as easy to see things that use the electric as easily as the older spinning type meters. Brewman, did they refund you for all that you overpaid for your electric?
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Hi Boni, I will get back later after the kids are in bed but have you checked your usage from your grow lights. That may be the culprit. Seriously, I'll be back after 10:00
Steve
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It wasn't me that had the electric meter issue, I remember reading about it on this forum, I'm pretty sure, unless it was on Doc's board.
I don't recall if the person got a refund, but if I found out that my electric company was overbilling me, I'd expect an adjustment of some sort. If indeed your meter is off, they might be able to determine by how much and arrive at a reasonable refund.
If they refuse, there's always your local PUC.
Hope you find out what the problem is.
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I know for our business, it made a difference in lowering our electric bill when we "balanced" the electric panels. We were paying a higher demand based on spikes in our usage, ie (6) 220 volt spas all on high speed shocking the water(heaters were probably heating) Couple 110v running as well.
We had one leg of the panel overloaded. We then equalled the normal amp draw on both legs.
We checked it with an amp meter on each leg with most of our usual items running.
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Ok, that is confusing to me. Maybe when Cola comes back, he can help me understand what you did to help with your electric bills. ;) I have only one electric panel so I guess that isn't something that will help me.
I am interested in that monitor because even if the electric company finds a problem with my meter, I don't know that I believe that they will tell me.
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Sorry Bonni, but what hot tub boy is talking about has nothing to do with your situation. Demand charges afect comercial users, not residential. I think that there is a good chance that you have a bum meter, that is if you are convinced that your usage is similar to your neighbors. I can't tell you how they wil rectify this but stay on them. Tell the guy that you want it replaced when he is on site. I don't know much about meter technology, but it is possible that the error registers logarithmically as opposed to linearly. The link for the TED meter looks good, but you might want to wait until they check your meter out. You have to remember that a meter like that is not calibrated and that it will give you a somewhat but not truely accurate reading.
Good luck
Steve
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Thanks Steve, That was my thoughts exactly, if the meter has a flaw that would cause it to register my usage logarithmically then that would expain how the addition of the tub appeared to add more than twice the amount of energy consumption as others (you included) indicate. My electrician took the reading before the meter and I think that would be the accurate reading. I have downloaded the TED manual and they have been great about answering all my questions through email. I will see about calibration because I agree the instrument has little value if it is out of calibration or can't be cross checked. According to the website, it may be an item covered under the energy tax deductions for this year...Thanks for all the help ;)
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I have a digital meter too and I thought I've seen a large wheel that spins in it too like my old analog. The meter could be bad and the electric company should do a swap out since it is suspected as bad.
The best way to see the current draw would be to remove the panel and put a clamp on amp meter onto each circuit both while things are running and not.
I didn't look into the websites that you and drewstar mentioned but I would think that anything that doesn't measure the individual circuits might be a waste except if it proves that the meter is defective.
My advice would be do as much investigating yourself as much as possible before hiring someone to do it especially if it entales a lot of $$$. No, I wouldn't recommend just anyone removing their circuit breaker panel and putting on an amp meter for fear of that person getting seriously hurt. But, if someone is comfortable around electricity, it is a start IF you can't see a wheel or something in the meter to indicate current draw.
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Vinny, I emailed the energy detective people and they siad in order to test each circuit, you turn off all circuits and then turn them on one by one. I like your idea better, to be able to check each circuit but I guess that would be complicated and costly. I will go look for the wheel that you are talking about and I think I will call my electric company and ask them which home electric monitor they would suggest! Maybe that would get them out here faster! Thanks so much for your help.
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"I've got 5' of wire, a fork and a butterknife....now, when I clamp the wire in my teeth, which hand should the knife be in to best tell if the circuit's bad?"
A call like that could get them running, too. ;) ;D
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I looked at my meter and it has dots now and not a wheel - sorry - and I don't know if the dots appear and disappear quicker with more power use. My meter seems to alternate between "88888" and the actual reading, with the dots underneath the numbers.
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Vinny, I don't get the 888888 but I also have the dots. I called again today and asked them to recommend which HOME meter I should get. I only did it to pester them. At this point I just want someone to come out and check this meter and I would like it to happen soon! My husband is angry that I have turned the temp down in the tub and we are now eating in the dark! ...I told him I am willing to sacrifice to have our tub even if it means that if I can't cook dinner any more, or run the vacuum cleaner :-/
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Bonnie something I just learned today.....My bill was up about 80.00 dollars this month here at our store, I know we did some extra work (power tools) and had a couple of fresh fills and added another wet spa and that was my big concern after the bill jumped but it turned out that it was for an extra 8 days of use besides the extra things we did. So depending on when your meter gets read.... the monthly fee may be as in our case for a longer or sometimes shorter billing cycle.
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Mendo, that is exactly how one of the electric reps explained it to me. Some months will represent more days. So rather than discuss monthly bills or dollars, I was comparing the actual kWh daily averages. I am really trying to figure out on a daily basis what is being used and what we are not using and compare it to the actual kWh that the electirc company gets from my meter. Like, for example, I could pin point the kWh that I used to do a refill and heat from about 55 degrees (water temp) on the first of March. That was 141 kWh. The day before I used 54 kWh. That means that it takes approximately 87kWh to reheat my water to 101. does that seem right? The air temp was around 40. Actually part of the daily 54kWh included tub heating and cleaning as usual . Based on my pre-tub average (33kWh), it took 108kWh to heat the tub. Could that be right? :( ???
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My tub is 400 gallons and it takes approx 10 to 12 hours to heat from hose temp to 101 or so. With 5.5 kw heater it takes between 55 kw (10) to 66 kw (12) to heat a fresh fill. Is your tub larger than mine?
Since the weather is getting nice try turning the heat down for a few days and see what the usage is in a few 24 hour periods. Do a couple of readings with the tub running normally, then turn the heat off or vice versa. See what with only the circ pump running the readings are. If they seem high still, shock the tub and turn it off completely for a day or two and see. Maybe you do have a faulty pump or something like that.
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Vinny, My tub is 450 gallons and I don't have a circ pump. I had an electrician test the line with the tub running both pumps, and the heater and he took readings. He called my technician at my dealer and compared his reading with what the manufacturer says the tub should draw. His readings were actually lower. That is why I am questioning my meter. I think I am going to continue to call the electric company to get readings and keep track of what we are using and if they don't find anything wrong with my meter...I will shut the tub, down like you suggest, for a few days (my husband will flip) and see what kind of readings I get then. What has really confused me is that the electric company has reading as low as 27kWh and the tub was running and heating..I am really getting frustrated with all of this ???
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I'm really trying to figure out on a daily basis what is being used and what we are not using and compare it to the actual kWh that the electirc company gets from my meter. Like, for example, I could pin point the kWh that I used to do a refill and heat from about 55 degrees (water temp) on the first of March. That was 141 kWh. The day before I used 54 kWh. That means that it takes approximately 87kWh to reheat my water to 101. does that seem right? The air temp was around 40. Actually part of the daily 54kWh included tub heating and cleaning as usual . Based on my pre-tub average (33kWh), it took 108kWh to heat the tub. Could that be right? :( ???
I just got through with a 3 week measurement of my tub usage using a meter (installed by the dealer). I've got a HS Vanguard (around 400-425 gallons I think). I used a little more than 7 kWh on average per day for steady state usage. (water maintained at 101) Soaks "cost" me between 6 and 10kWh depending on outdoor temp and time. (I usually soak between 30 and 40 minutes) Don't know if this will help, it's just what I saw... please post back with your progress/findings....
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Thank you, I wish I had been smart enough to watch when we first got the tub, instead I just thought my high bills were due to the learning process with my water balance and drying more towels. Maybe this would have been resolved by now if I was paying better attention in the beginning!
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Maybe so, Boni.....but maybe you'd be in the same situation as you are now, trying to get the electric company to come out and check to see if your meter's faulty, or see where the energy's being sucked up.....
I found I can't show this forum to my hubby because of this thread. ;) He's already paranoid about getting our electric bill...
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I'm sorry T-Lady, I don't want to cause you anxiety over my electric problems. Obviously something is going on at MY house! So I really wouldn't expect that you will have the same problem. I will get this figured out one way or the other. Look at all the other posters who have normal tub usage with minimal impact on electric bills, show those guys to your hubby. And continue to enjoy your tub. I'm heading out now...I have a toad in my back yard looking for a honey and he is singing up a storm...I know I'm a bit weird but I love to listen to the sounds of nature while I'm soaking ;)
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*lol* Gotta love that "chorus of love"....
No prob, Boni....I'm not getting completely fired up over the electric issue yet. I warned him that the first month (with heating the cold water) is supposed to be the worst, but regardless, he'll freak. ;) I've come to expect that.
Is your electric company taking you any more seriously yet? I find it hard to believe that they just say "oh, it's your fault because you've got a luxury item" and leave it at that, instead of at LEAST checking into things a little more....
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(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/5c706b2a.jpg)
You obviously have one of these rooting around on your propurty.
Terminator
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OK Term, I'll tell my husband you said that he looks like a big pig....If you see a big black limo, black windows and NY tags pull up to yo store ;D...either duck or get out that potato gun!
T-Lady, they haven't contacted me yet...I am going to draw a nasty picture on my meter in case they try to switch it out when I am not here and hope I don't notice ;D I think I'll draw Term's pig!
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OK Term, I'll tell my husband you said that he looks like a big pig....If you see a big black limo, black windows and NY tags pull up to yo store ;D...either duck or get out that potato gun!
T-Lady, they haven't contacted me yet...I am going to draw a nasty picture on my meter in case they try to switch it out when I am not here and hope I don't notice ;D I think I'll draw Term's pig!
Hey! do I hear some wacking going on... us Italians love to wack people ... I'll bring the concrete, I got some size 18 boxes, I mean shoes, for someone to wear. :D
JK ... I repair medical equipment so you know I ain't connected! ;D
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heyyyyyyyy there ya go.....I like the "arting up" of the meter idea....'course, if they can't read it (maybe they can't read anyhow and that's your problem?), they'll whine and overcharge you even more.......grr
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T-Lady, they haven't contacted me yet...I am going to draw a nasty picture on my meter in case they try to switch it out when I am not here and hope I don't notice ;D I think I'll draw Term's pig!
I thought you'd palnned to get a meter for the spa so you can clear that issue up? I think that would be wise because I doubt the energy company will truly pay much attention until/unless you can say what that is drawing. If it turns out to be reasonable as I suspect it should then they may start to think they really need get on board.
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Spatech, I am still thinking about getting an in home meter, but I don't know how to evaluate them. The person at the electric company (from now on known as PECO), told me to save my money until they check my meter...sometime within the next 30 days. I did have an electrician check my baseline draw and my tub with the heater on , and both jets. That all checked out. The tub seems to be perfectly within the manufacturer's ratings.
Unless something is going on that I am unaware of, the tub shouldn't be using the same amount of electric as my entire household per month. So the meter was not to just check on my tub, I thought I may need to check appliances etc., because something HAS to be wrong. I guess really my first step is to wait for PECO to tell me everything is good from their standpoint. :-/
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Spatech, I am still thinking about getting an in home meter, but I don't know how to evaluate them. :-/
I know someone on Doc's site (Rali) went through this same thing and got someone to come and evaluate her entire property which showed the spa to be within expectations but I forget what the culprits ended up being.
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How can I find out? I don't go on that site so I don't know how to search for stuff like that. I know I can't be the only one that this has happened to and I'm not giving up until I do get some kind of answer...
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How can I find out? I don't go on that site so I don't know how to search for stuff like that. I know I can't be the only one that this has happened to and I'm not giving up until I do get some kind of answer...
Maybe you can ask Doc to send her your e-mail address. I'm sure she's the type to want to pass on what she went through.
This is not within her original string about the subject but I saw a recent post where she commented on it when someone else was asking and summarised as you can see below:
http://www.rhtubs.com/cgi-bin/bbs/config.pl?noframes;read=84325
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Thanks Spatech, I read through the whole thread. I see that she was able to find other items (dehumidifiers, sump pumps etc). That's just it, I have nothing like that going on. I am going to check out the meter in the Home Depot, it may work as well as the home monitors that I was looking at and be less expensive. Thanks so much for your help.. ;).Boni