Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: Bonibelle on April 03, 2006, 05:45:43 pm
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I had my electrician come up today to check out the tub wiring again and see if something was wrong that propelled my electric bills off the charts. We very tested the tub very scientifically and he calculated a worst possible case scenario using actual readings from the wiring. When he got all of the readings he called the service tech from my dealership and compared notes. My tub's real electric usage was actually lower than the company even claims. We calculated monthly costs based on this and found that the tub, used 1 hour every night, with 4 hours of filtration and one 1 hour clean cycle daily should cost approximately $80.00 per month and that includes the 7% increase. So I called my electric company and since I have a "high dollar luxury item that draws a ton of electric", I was sandblasted by the representative. When she realized that I was not giving up and that I could prove that the tub did not cause the entire
$150.00/month increase that I experienced, she initiated a dispute of bill (what ever that means). She was able to tell my daily usage from the office and she told me that on one day last week my usage was down to pre-hot tub levels and on another day ,when we didn't use the tub, it was way above average levels across the month.
That indicates to me something is wrong in the meter. How could my usage go below the baseline for the tub while it was heating and running in a maintain mode (no users) and then fly up when no one used it? If anyone has any thoughts I would appreciate them. She was even surprised that my meter didn't have a dial in additon to the digital readout so that I would watch for high energy use.
Stuart or Mendo, since I now have my water maintence in control, shouldn't I be able to reduce my clean cycles?
Or at least the duration of the clean cycle? I am so happy that my tub wiring is right and $80.00 is about what I expected so I am good with that. I just need to figure out the other $70.00 and I will be happy.
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Stuart or Mendo, since I now have my water maintence in control, shouldn't I be able to reduce my clean cycles?
Or at least the duration of the clean cycle? I am so happy that my tub wiring is right and $80.00 is about what I expected so I am good with that. I just need to figure out the other $70.00 and I will be happy.
Mendo and Stuart can chime in since they're the Marquis guys but 4 hours filtration and a 1-hr clean cycle aren't very high IMO. I advice people not to go lower than 4 hrs per day unless they use it seldom. I might reduce the clean cycle as I don't think 1 hr is necessary unless you're rolling around in the yard before going in.
Good to know it's not the spa but you must have some high KWH rates where you are (hope you don't have that extra fridge in teh garage, they can be hogs). What part of the country?
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Yes...I agree I would leave the setting as they are.....2 times a day for 2 hours and a 1 hour clean up but something I want to point out if I read your post correctly your cost of 80.00 is soaking in it everyday for an hour with a clean up cycle ....most makers when speaking about estimated monthly cost use 3 to 4 soaks a week for 30 minutes....I say this only because some may see $80.00 as high but when you take into consideration what you are accounting for it is very much in-line with any efficient running spa.... :D
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Yes...I agree I would leave the setting as they are.....2 times a day for 2 hours and a 1 hour clean up but something I want to point out if I read your post correctly your cost of 80.00 is soaking in it everyday for an hour with a clean up cycle ....most makers when speaking about estimated monthly cost use 3 to 4 soaks a week for 30 minutes....I say this only because some may see $80.00 as high but when you take into consideration what you are accounting for it is very much in-line with any efficient running spa.... :D
Mendo,
I missed the EVERY NIGHT part, that is definitely honeymoon time and accounts for a lot but don't you think she can reduce that clean-up cycle to 15 minutes. With 4 hrs of filtering I don't see the need to run the pump a full hour after use.
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Mendo, It's not that we do use it that often or for that amount of time or with both jets on high (most of the time my husband likes to soak without jets on). My electrician and I were doing a "worst possible case scenario" so that no matter what the electric company countered with, I could safely say we took that into account. His estimate of a realistic usage was about $65.00. I even asked the electric company rep if rates increase after so many kWh and she said only in the summer.( SpaTech, I am in the suburbs of Philadelphia, my rate is actually $0.0657 kWh). She said that items that typically generate that kind of increase are either related to heating or cooling. The really strange thing is how did my usage drop to the level that it was before I had the tub, when the tub was up and running normally? It was funny she put me on hold while she looked for information that the electric company had published about hot tubs...she wasn't able to find it :-/
I am just so happy it is not my tub wiring!
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With the Marquis system it waits for 30 minutes after use before it goes into the clean up cycle it is self starting and the customer has to do nothing to start it. I would actually suggest cutting back the filtering time if it were a real issue and increasing the clean up time as we all know the time that your water is the dirtiest is after use. If Bonnie were in a more "average" use time her cost based on her information would most likely be around $30.00 per month. I mentioned this earlier but here in our store our costs are just under $200.00 for 4 and sometimes 5 spas plus all of our other use.
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Bonnie,
That is great and I hope you find the cause of the bigger bills, at home I am only about $20.00 per month but it rarely gets into even the 40's here.
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WOW and my Hot Spings dealer just guaranted me that my electric bill will not increase more than $1.30 a day. What brand do you have that is spinning the meter off the wall?
And by the way, is that a guarantee that I will ever collect on???
How could it be proved?
How could the HS dealer make such a claim?
He lives in the same area as I do, one town over so he has to know what I pay for power.
Just to throw out a number like that is very deceptive, IMO.
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It is surprising since unless he can guarantee how much you use your spa how can he be sure of the cost to run it..... ::)
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Anglia, you must not have read this post.
http://www.whatsthebest-hottub.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=wtb-hottub;action=display;num=1138770435
WOW and my Hot Spings dealer just guaranted  me that my electric bill will not increase more than $1.30 a day. What brand do you have that is spinning the meter off the wall?
And by the way, is that a guarantee that I will ever collect on???
How could it be proved?
How could the HS dealer make such a claim?
He lives in the same area as I do, one town over so he has to know what I pay for power.
Just to throw out a number like that is very deceptive, IMO.
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Bonibelle,
Did you figure out how many Kwh's you would use for your worst case example? To me, even $65 still seems very high for your area. My electricity rates are more than 300% higher than yours. I can't imagine having a $200 plus electric bill just for my spa. Just be thankful you don't have to pay Southern California rates. Most of the manufacturers don't list California in their energy costs examples.
Mendo, It's not that we do use it that often or for that amount of time or with both jets on high  (most of the time my husband likes to soak without jets on). My electrician and I were doing a "worst possible case scenario" so that no matter what the electric company countered with, I could safely say we took that into account. His estimate of a realistic usage was about $65.00. I even asked the  electric company rep if rates increase after so many kWh and she said only in the summer.( SpaTech, I am in the suburbs of Philadelphia, my rate is actually $0.0657 kWh). She said that items that typically generate that kind of increase are either related to heating or cooling. The really strange thing is how did my usage drop to the level that it was before I had the tub, when the tub was up and running normally? It was funny she put me on hold while she looked for information that the electric company had published about hot tubs...she wasn't able to find it  :-/
I am just so happy it is not my tub wiring!
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Hi Boni
Based on the electrical rate you are quoting, your electrician has estimated a monthly worst case usage of ($80.00/0.0657) 1217.65 kWh of electricity for your tub. This works out to 40.56 kWh per day.
Approximate values that I estimate as follows.
Four hours filtering 4 kWh
One hour clean cycle 1 kWh
One hour both pumps on high & heat 10 kWh
2 hours heat (winter) 12 kWh
So 27 kWh for a day of hard usage X 0.0657 = $1.77
Thats $53.00 per month. Since you don't use the tub every day and it has to be damn cold out to heat for two hours daily and your pumps run half the time that you are in the tub, I would expect a lower amount. I do have some recommendations as follows.
First, you have a smart meter and the electricity provider may charge different rates at different times of the day. Set your filter time from 9 til 11 PM and 5 til 7 AM. These are low demand hours.
Second, try a shorter filter time for the evening setting, 10 to 11 PM, if you are in earlier, it will still run a clean cycle. I run two hour filtering per day when my usage is low and my November water is still crystal clear.
Third, perform all water changes on weekends when electricity demand is at it's lowest levels and your rates may be cheaper.
Four, install energy efficient lighting throughout your house, halogen lighting is only 5% more efficient than incandescent. (still on topic)
I have a question regarding your electrical rate.
Does $0.0657 per kWh include delivery (and taxes). If it does, consider yourself lucky.
As I mentioned on Saturday, I will do some actual tests. I was sick Sunday so I will do them this weekend
Good Luck
Steve
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Good God $80 a month is outrageous. My jump was only around $26 and that is 2-3 soaks a days, and sub-freezing temps for 2 of the 4 months.
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Bonibelle: It is almost impossible for the Epic to be using that much electricity, even if you were using it every day twice a day. I've never heard of an electrical bill jumping to more than $40-50 with very high usage on a Marquis. The estimated average monthly increase is $18.72 on the Epic based on the standard filtration cycles (which I believe your spa is set on) and usage of 3 times a week for 30 mins each time, at an average of .08 per KWH and an avg. temp of 70 degrees. If your avg. temp is a more like 50 degrees, the estimated cost is $24.72.
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Markee, my October electric bill (about average bill) was $150.00, after the December addition of the tub, my bills shot up over $300.00. Naturally I thought something was wrong with the way the tub was wired. I know the tub shouldn't use that much electric. My electric rate is 0.0657kWh, but then they add distribution charges and transition charges which add another 0.0747 kWh which make my kWh charge about 0.14. Still, something is wrong because even using the worst case scenerio, I shouldn't be adding $150.00 to my normal bill. According to my bill my per day usage went from an agerage of 33.2 kWh to 69.6 after the tub. I am satisfied that the tub isn't responsible for all my increase but I need to know what is and how it relates to the tub. I have already eliminated the clothes dryer since I have been drying my towels on the clothes line. Cola, has been a wonderful resource, as he is an expert electrical engineeer and he also has an Epic. I will keep you updated.
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Boni, ask the electric company to replace your meter....seems the tub's been ruled out as a cause, and you've cut back a lot on your OTHER electrical appliances...seems that the meter would be the only other thing causing the jump, unless you've got neighbors using your power, as well...
(my $.02)
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Anglia, you must not have read this post.
http://www.whatsthebest-hottub.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=wtb-hottub;action=display;num=1138770435
Based on his or her replies, I don't think he or she reads any of the posts. Bonibelle is talking about her experience with her MARQUIS spa and Angrila starts talking about HotSpring.;D
Anglia, if your HotSpring dealer is offering such a good guarantee, maybe it's time you go ahead and buy one, if you haven't already. :)
Terminator
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T-Lady you won't believe the reaction you get from the electric company when you say, yes I have a hot tub but... that is why I wanted to be well armed and have all my info straight before I even called them. I still may have a tough time getting them out here since the rep told me they select the cases that they feel warrant an audit. I am not going to give up though because it is so obvious that something is not right. If I have to, I will drain my tub and turn it off for a month....that ought to land me in really big trouble with my hubby! >:(
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Boni,
Touched on this before, but my So Cal bill hovers around $200 a month now, where it was usually less than $100 prior to installation. My Beachcomber is running filtration 24/7, but to try and help we've taken to setting the tub to 96 or 97, then bumping it up an hour before we plan on going in. We'll see how or if it works.....maybe I'm having an issue with my meter as well?
Greg
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I don't know what to say, Leaky, other than maybe it is worth it for you to also look into it. I tried lowering my temps too but I believe one of the Marquis guys on here told me I was probably not saving anything. Plus one night I forgot to turn it up and my honey got real upset because he didn't want to soak at 96 degrees.
I can tell you that I also tried to look at anything that would increase my bill as a "side effect" of having the tub. I do more wash more towels, so I have been drying them on my clothes line to eliminate that variable. I thought that my water management issues probably contributed to the increase, but now that I have it under control, I have eliminated that variable. In addition, I am taking Cola's advice and replacing bulbs with more efficient ones. We are going to do a family energy audit to see if the kids can even help us identify any energy wasting things in my house. I guess when the energy costs FAR exceed what you expected you do really wonder. I am not giving up until I get this one figured out. Good luck and let me know how you make out ;)
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Soon we will be getting in our hot summer weather. I think we will turn off the heat all together during the summer.
If it cost me $80 a month to run my hot-tub, I'm afraid it would become a cold-tub. That is extremely high and with already expected high summer bills I couldn't afford it.
If I should have to turn off the temp does that change the chemical maintenance?
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Soon we will be getting in our hot summer weather. I think we will turn off the heat all together during the summer.
If it cost me $80 a month to run my hot-tub, I'm afraid it would become a cold-tub. That is extremely high and with already expected high summer bills I couldn't afford it.
If I should have to turn off the temp does that change the chemical maintenance?
Turning "off" the temp, will reduce the amount of chems, but not eliminate them. The water still will need to be kept clean and balanced. You don't want to have bacteria growing. PH and calcimul can affect the heater as well.
Some tubs actually have a "summer mode" that reduces filter cycles and allows for great temp diference before turning on the heater. You might want to check your owners manual.
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Soon we will be getting in our hot summer weather. I think we will turn off the heat all together during the summer.
If it cost me $80 a month to run my hot-tub, I'm afraid it would become a cold-tub. That is extremely high and with already expected high summer bills I couldn't afford it.
If I should have to turn off the temp does that change the chemical maintenance?
Boni,
The ironic part is that in a well insulated spa turning down the temp should be meaningless to a regular user since it should hold temp so well that the next day it has barely dropped. If your spa is at 102º and you set the temp down to 92º it should take a couple days to actually drop to that temp. I always encourage people to test this for themselves before they start playing the temp game and since you use your spa so often I wouldn't drop the temp at all or maybe just 2º so when you want to go in it'll only take 15 minutes to get back to what you like. Now if you were only using it once per every week or so that might be different.
In your case, since the auto clean cycle runs 1 hr every time you use the spa I think you could reduce filtering to 3 hrs total/day so you'd then have a total of 4 hrs with the clean cycle added in on days you use the spa. It won't make a big difference but if you're looking for every little bit I think you could lower that total by 1 hr and not see any difference.
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Is your meter anywhere near the driveway? I had this thought.....evil though it may be.....if they won't come out and check or replace a possibly faulty meter, would they replace one that's been damaged by backing a trailer or other object into? *lol* Yeah, I know, NOT a good plan....but they also need to realize that it's NOT just a "luxury" item.....these things are therapy for people with bad joints, circulation, etc...and it's not mandatory you explain to them WHY you bought the tub in the first place. Sounds like they're
a) jealous that you have a hot tub and they (probably) don't, and
b)too lazy to get off their butts and try to find out if this is a problem as a result of one of their products taking a crap.....
This is all just WRONG.....Boni, I give you credit for still trying to fix things on your end, find out if it IS something your family has caused....instead of storming up to the local energy office and complaining at top volume.....I know I'd be fed up, and by now my hubby'd have gone off on someone.....
Man, I HOPE you find your problem and get it FIXED!!!!
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Leaky,
I also have a Beachcomber (model 580) and I live Tucson, AZ. Our nights are colder than yours. My bill runs between $10 to $15 dollars more a month than last year without the tub. We use it about 5 times a week for 30 minutes and leave it at 102.
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Leaky,
I also have a Beachcomber (model 580) and I live Tucson, AZ. Our nights are colder than yours. My bill runs between $10 to $15 dollars more a month than last year without the tub. We use it about 5 times a week for 30 minutes and leave it at 102.
Very Interesting on how the spas and what they cost to run seem to vary so much....my cost are close to yours Marks
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101, have you ever put a meter on any of your spas? I can't imagine you could run at $10-$15/month for what we pay for electricity from So. Cal Edison? ???
Very Interesting on how the spas and what they cost to run seem to vary so much....my cost are close to yours Marks
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Gomboman,
Just did a quick check and my KWH have increased by about 250 a month for Jan - March. This is probably a better measure than price increase.
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Yep, that's about $50 for me in my area. I figure my electric bill has gone up about that much. It's the best $50 I've spent by the way. I figure it's much better than going out to dinner one night....
Gomboman,
Just did a quick check and my KWH have increased by about 250 a month for Jan - March. Â This is probably a better measure than price increase.
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Sheez, I can't believe what some of you folks pay for electricity!
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Snyper, you plugged into Boni's electric again??? ;) ;D
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T-Lady, I thought about running into the meter, but would have to do that with the tractor or something since the meter is no where near my driveway. My luck I would get killed and they would charge my husband double for the extra electric that it took to electrocute
me! >:(