Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: mxw128 on February 01, 2006, 12:07:14 am
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Anybody out there see a guarantee from their hotspring dealer guaranteeing that their spas will not cost more than $20/month to operate?
That was part of my dealer's sales pitch. When I asked what they did about it, he said they would come and put a meter on my tub and if it did cost me more than $20/month (based on kWh usage and current rates) they would pay the difference.
Anyone know if Hotspring has ever actually followed through on this?
I've had my tub since August and I've been doing some analyis on my bills, looks like the impact to me is much more than $20 a month!
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I had this pile driven into my sales pitch as well. It really turned me off because just minutes before, there was an irate customer there complaining about the ways they checked. Seems the meter they used was not one that the utility company came out and used.
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Please let me know the stipulations of how they go about testing/paying the differance of your electrical bill.
Thanks,
Michael
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When I called the dealer he directed me to the service number of their main office. I called them and they seemed a little surprised that I had asked about it. She said that she had never been asked the question about it before. I don't want to rush to conclusions, because they've always been helpful in the past. (the dealer didn't always follow through on his commitments, but that's another story...)
I'd bet HS counts on folks either not noticing, forgettign about it or not taking the time to work out the numbers. (or maybe the tubs ARE that good! ;) ) I'll let you know what happens...
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Hot Spring Energy Guarantees are actually dealer guarantees, not manufacturer guarantees. Typically they are based on specific usage guidelines.
Following the guidelines, typically 101 degrees f, using tub 6 times a week, 15 minutes jets on, 15 minutes jets off, an EE (Energy Efficient) Hot Spring is going to use 200 kwh +/- depending on your ambient temperature. Laws of physics. That is the power that is going to be consumed.
My questions would be:
1. What model do you have?
2. What is your use pattern?
3. What is your ambient temperture?
4. How much do you pay per kwh?
5. How does the guarantee read?
You can go to the HotSpring web site and use the energy calculator and it will be pretty close.
A HP(High Performance) model will cost a little more.
Hope this helps.
Dan
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As a dealer, we've never offered it. It's never been an issue in 20 years. I have yet seen a customer of ours come in and say their electric bill went up. The only comments I've heard are "We've seen no increase in our electric bill."
It's a type of sales gimmick. Every retail store on the planet has one or more of them.
Terminator
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I agree with Term, I sold HS for over 20 years and we only had 1 guy complain about his electric bill. Turns out he put in central air and was trying to scam us.
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It is a very open ended promise as how much a spa is used is certainly going to effect its cost. I admire the dealers who stay away from using this as it is misleading. I know Hot Springs makes a fine product and is as energy efficient as any out there, its just most of the better made spas of comparable size will cost "about" the same each month.
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I certainly agree that it is an open ended guarantee. I had the same conversation with the sales folks, telling them that the amount of use and energy costs must make honoring the warranty difficult. His reply was the same, that they only had a "few" people pursue it.
What made me wonder about the costs was the fact that my electric bill was way higher than my friends and neighbors in similar houses, (and I have high efficiency furnace and A/C units) When I ran the numbers and looked at kWh used inthe months before and after installing the tub and compared them to the same timeframe last year, there was a noticable difference after the tub was installed. It wil be good if/when they do install a meter and I can be sure. I'm not necessarily complaining about the electric bills, (I'm sure that the HS tub will be comparable in cost to operate as its competitors), but none of the competitors were willing to offer a "guarentee". So as part of the sales package, I'm curious to see how they honor it.
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Just a note: I have observed a $50 or $60 jump in the first month of spa ownership. It seems to happen no matter what model my customer selects.
After that first month, most of my customers report less than a dollar a day, depending on use and jet pump size.
I have metered tubs over the years, and generally they use less than people expect. Why the jump during the first month? I can't be certain, but I think it has to do with the folks being home more, opening the tub lid many extra times per day, making adjustments up and down in temperature, and so forth.
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Chas...My electric bill has gone sky high. I think what you say is right, opening the tub so often (and for me trying to reduce the bromine levels), but in my house, no one will use a towel more than one time. That means that I wash and dry almost twice the number of towels just about every day! :-/
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MXW, what model do you own? How much is electricity in your area? How much has your bill increased? Be assured that Hotspring spas are about as efficient as they come.
I've never heard of a Cost Guarantee before since it depends on your usage, cost of electricity, and temperature delta between your set water temp and outside temp. I personally think a dealer would be crazy to make a "Cost Guarantee". The cost guarantee wouldn't apply in most parts of California. If I used 200 kWh's of electricity my bill would be around $40. I pay $.20 per Kwh in Southern California which is on the high side.
Hottubdan or another HS dealer, how much more electricity would a HP model use following your 200 Kwh example?
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Hot Spring Energy Guarantees are actually dealer guarantees, not manufacturer guarantees.
When I was shopping for my spa one dealer made that 'cost guarantee'. It didn't sway me to buy from them, I bought it from a dealer that didn't offer that guarantee
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MXW, what model do you own? How much is electricity in your area? How much has your bill increased?
I own a Vanguard. My current electric rate is $.0793 / kWh. Comparing the six months prior to owning the tub with the six months after (and looking at the same time periods the previous year to account for seasonal differences) and without going into standard deviations and such...The difference in my average usage went from 165 kWh for the six months prior to purchasing the tub to 612 kWh after. In other words in the six months after I installed the tub, I used an average of 1992 kWh, compared to the same six months last year where I used 1380 kWh, (so a difference of 612 kwH) My electricity rates went up about an average of about $.01/kWh when comparing the six months following install compared to the previous year. So this equates (using the average electricty rate since I've owned the tub) to about a $40 difference, or twice the "guaranteed" cost. And I really don't use the tub excessively (2-3 time s'a week) or keep it that hot (101 deg) and it really hasn't been THAT cold here this winter, (Average temp for the last month has been in the upper 40s).
Now is that $40 going to be a "deal breaker"? Nope. Am I going to unplug my tub? Nope! I really am looking into this whole thing for two reasons: 1. I'm a stickler for keeping folks to their word. Especially salesmen. If they would have not thrown that guarantee up and preached to it, and maybe just offered some estimates or figures for typical costs, I could have bought that. (I probably wouldn't have even asked) 2. (and more importantly) If a typicall tub really does do a better job, I wonder if there is something that could be better (i.e. wrong) with mine....
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MX,
Are you saying that you use 612 Kwh more per month or for a six month period? You've lost me with your calculations.
612 Kwh per month does seem like a lot of electricity for a Vanguard. That would cost me about $120. Are you sure nothing else has changed in your household? Just be thankful that your electricity rates are very reasonable where you live. Where do you live?
I own a Vanguard. Â My current electric rate is $.0793 / kWh. Â Comparing the six months prior to owning the tub with the six months after (and looking at the same time periods the previous year to account for seasonal differences) and without going into standard deviations and such...The difference in my average usage went from 165 kWh for the six months prior to purchasing the tub to 612 kWh after. Â In other words in the six months after I installed the tub, I used an average of 1992 kWh, compared to the same six months last year where I used 1380 kWh, (so a difference of 612 kwH) Â My electricity rates went up about an average of about $.01/kWh when comparing the six months following install compared to the previous year. Â So this equates (using the average electricty rate since I've owned the tub) to about a $40 difference, or twice the "guaranteed" cost. Â And I really don't use the tub excessively (2-3 time s'a week) or keep it that hot (101 deg) and it really hasn't been THAT cold here this winter, (Average temp for the last month has been in the upper 40s). Â
Now is that $40 going to be a "deal breaker"? Â Nope. Â Am I going to unplug my tub? Â Nope! I really am looking into this whole thing for two reasons: Â 1. I'm a stickler for keeping folks to their word. Especially salesmen. Â If they would have not thrown that guarantee up and preached to it, and maybe just offered some estimates or figures for typical costs, I could have bought that. (I probably wouldn't have even asked) Â 2. (and more importantly) If a typicall tub really does do a better job, I wonder if there is something that could be better (i.e. wrong) with mine....
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The difference in my average usage went from 165 kWh for the six months prior to purchasing the tub to 612 kWh after. In other words in the six months after I installed the tub, I used an average of 1992 kWh, compared to the same six months last year where I used 1380 kWh, (so a difference of 612 kwH)
There is a misprint in there.
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Yep, the average monthly increase compared to the same six months last year was 612 kWh.
To be fair I did make one miscalc: My electric usage went up in general last year (both before and after I got the tub).
It increased an average of 165 kWh before the tub and 612 kWh after. So the "real" impact from the was really 447 kWh. (around $36 ) Not the total 612. Nothing else changed around the time of the tub install....
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There is a misprint in there.
What's the misprint? The numbers are accurate...
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As a dealer, we've never offered it. It's never been an issue in 20 years. I have yet seen a customer of ours come in and say their electric bill went up. The only comments I've heard are "We've seen no increase in our electric bill."
It's a type of sales gimmick. Every retail store on the planet has one or more of them.
Terminator
I cant believe that after 20 years not ONE (1) customer has ever seen their electric bill go up? RIGHT!!!!!
I suppose you want us to believe that?
And by the way.... not every retail store on the planet has a type of sales gimmick, a lot of freinds of mine are in retail and im sure they would take offence to being painted with your broad brush.
Stop shooting from the hip, and giving out false info.
So im off to my local HS dealer to see what "SALES GIMMICK" he will try and use on me.
Keep your powder dry.
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I have had my Envoy since April 1st 2005. I haven't NOTICED a increase in my electric. Before the tub my bills were between $100-$130 per month, since the tub was installed the bills were still $100-$130. I am sure the tub does add to the bill, but 15-20 bucks just melts into the bill.
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Simmer down, simmer down. I'll try to help you through this. :)
I cant believe that after 20 years not ONE (1) customer has ever seen their electric bill go up? RIGHT!!!!!
In 20 years, not one single customer of ours has ever SAID TO US that their electric bill has gone up. I'm absolutely positive that every single one of them has had an increase in their bill, but it is so negligible that they have never had it become an issue or broached it with us. :) NEXT.......
I suppose you want us to believe that?
That's up to you. You're a big girl or boy. I always tell the truth on this forum (except when I'm clowning around). Please feel free to show me where I've lied to anyone about anything on here. :) NEXT.....
And by the way.... not every retail store on the planet has a type of sales gimmick, a lot of freinds of mine are in retail and im sure they would take offence to being painted with your broad brush.
Please provide me the name of ONE SINGLE retail store on the planet that has no sales gimmick of some type. I'm anxious to hear it. Saturn automobiles? No haggling....that's a sales gimmick. Old Navy? Best Buy? JC Penney's? Build-a-Bear Workshop? EVERYONE has a gimmick of some sort. :) NEXT....
Stop shooting from the hip, and giving out false info.
I never INTENTIONALLY give out false information. I've been INCORRECT from time-to-time and when I've realized it, I have made the necessary corrections and apologized. I just haven't had to very often. :) NEXT....
So im off to my local HS dealer to see what "SALES GIMMICK" he will try and use on me.
I'm sure your HS dealer has many gimmicks. So does Sundance, Marquis, D-1, Coleman, Jacuzzi, and especially SeaMonkey Spas. The HotSpring ones just seem to work much better than the others'. :)
Keep your powder dry.
Amigo, you are preaching to the choir! ;D
Terminator
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What's the misprint? The numbers are accurate...
You stated "The difference in my average usage went from 165 kWh for the six months prior to purchasing the tub to 612 kWh after."
That means your usage went up by almost a factor of 4. I think I know what you meant.
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You stated "The difference in my average usage went from 165 kWh for the six months prior to purchasing the tub to 612 kWh after."
That means your usage went up by almost a factor of 4. I think I know what you meant.
Yeah the "difference" in averages can be a difficult idea to write and convey. I got my tub in August and compared my usage to the previous year to account for seasonal variations in electricy usage.
Feb through July 2005: Average kWh/Month = 1322 kWh
Feb through July 2004: Average kWh/Month = 1157 kWh
Average usage increase from 2004 to 2005 before tub install: 165 kWh
August 05 through Jan 06: Avg kWh/month = 1992 kWh
August 04 through Jan 05: Avg KwH/month = 1380 kWh
Average usage increase from 2004 to 2005 AFTER tub install: 612 kWh
My electricity usage usually goes up by about 20 % between the 2 six month periods examined. This year the increase was 51%.
BTW: "220, 221 whatever it takes" VERY funny! isn't that from Mr. Mom??
Too much talk about the numbers, I'm going to use a few more kWh... I'm going tubbin! ;D
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Well, after many messages left and unreturned calls from the Owner , I guess that Hot Spring Spas of Washington really is a dealer that doesn't stand behind their marketing. There has been no response to my inquiries regarding their promised "Cost guarantee".
This, apparently, is just one of their ways to get folks to write them a check. I still have the email that boasts that one of their "Customer services" was to come out to my house to inspect the possible locations for the tub (this one was repeated by the sales guy), which never happened. Then there was the "we come out to your place a couple of weeks after tub delivery to walk you through the operation" ploy. (this was to allow you time to play with the tub and have questions to ask they said). Of course that never happened either.
At least their techs show up when I place a sevice call... now whether they actually "fix" anything is open to interpretation, But I guess they can charge these visits right back to Watkins, as well as parts they "replace" so what have they got to lose?
I do enjoy the product though. Next time I'll have to find a different dealer.
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MX, maybe you just have a bum dealer. My dealer will do all these things except offer a cost guarantee. A $20 electric bill isn't possible in Southern California at $.20/ KwH. Well, maybe in the summer if you never turned on the jets. ;D
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Well, after many messages left and unreturned calls from the Owner , I guess that Hot Spring Spas of Washington really is a dealer that doesn't stand behind their marketing. There has been no response to my inquiries regarding their promised "Cost guarantee".
This, apparently, is just one of their ways to get folks to write them a check. I still have the email that boasts that one of their "Customer services" was to come out to my house to inspect the possible locations for the tub (this one was repeated by the sales guy), which never happened. Then there was the "we come out to your place a couple of weeks after tub delivery to walk you through the operation" ploy. (this was to allow you time to play with the tub and have questions to ask they said). Of course that never happened either.
At least their techs show up when I place a sevice call... now whether they actually "fix" anything is open to interpretation, But I guess they can charge these visits right back to Watkins, as well as parts they "replace" so what have they got to lose?
I do enjoy the product though. Next time I'll have to find a different dealer.
It is about getting your attention and influencing your decision. It is no different than offering a rebate, it is marketing, it is all about standing out to be different. Now that you OWN it, you have paid for it, your not a sale any longer. They expect that you will use it and enjoy it and chances are that you will.
Soon you will forget about this issue, but they got your business. We are all trying to sway that decision in our favor. We all sell a pretty good product, and all of our customer usually enjoy them, but it is customer service that is most important. Pi$$ them off and no referrals could be detrimental to business.
I think if they made a claim they should at least make an effort to stand behind their word, but that is not covered under warranty and nobody pays for their expenses to stand behind that claim.
It is a good thing that it does not change the quality of your choice, but you know own your decision.
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I don't blame you one bit for being upset. There's over 900 HotSpring dealers worldwide and not every single one of them is a huckleberry. Some of them are goobs. Sounds like they could stand a little improvement, as I'm sure every single dealer on this forum (myself included) could in some phase of their operation.
I'm glad you like the spa, it pains me somewhat to hear you're not getting the service you deserve.
Terminator
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I don't blame you one bit for being upset. There's over 900 HotSpring dealers worldwide and not every single one of them is a huckleberry. Some of them are goobs. Sounds like they could stand a little improvement, as I'm sure every single dealer on this forum (myself included) could in some phase of their operation.
I'm glad you like the spa, it pains me somewhat to hear you're not getting the service you deserve.
Terminator
I don't think mx is talking about the service, I think it is more about the HS dealer not returning his calls regarding their claims which apparently are different around the country.
As you state, they are claims you do not make, nor are they made in California, but they are made during the sales process by others. The claims are made but their willingness to back up their claims does not seem to be in the right place. If they say it and proclaim they will prove it, then they should. I know our local dealer charges them a fee to come out to prove it, which of course discourages the consumer to pay for them to back up their claims.
It just seems that mx is simply saying they are too busy with others that they are not honoring their word. The service tech has been responsive when needed.
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Don't know what a huckleberry or a goob are.
However, I know the owner of Hot Spring Spa of Washington. I have contacted him and asked him to read this thread. I believe his heart is in the right place. Let's see how this one plays out.
I also believe the "cost guarantee" is an outdated marketing tool. When Hot Spring Spas were 110v it was easy to know exactly how much power was being used simply by plugging a meter in between spa and plug. Even then, no way to verify whether spa was used 1 day a week or twice a day, or what temperature, or whether the cover was put back on after the teenagers used the spa or... ???
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As you state, they are claims you do not make, nor are they made in California, but they are made during the sales process by others.
If you're referring to me, I never made such statements. You have me confused with someone else.
I was referring to the lack of service from management. Sorry for the confusion.
Also, I'm not saying the Washington dealers are goobs, I don't know them. Some dealers I've met (including HS dealers) are not necessarily people I would choose to do business with as a consumer.
Terminator
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If you're referring to me, I never made such statements. You have me confused with someone else.
As a dealer, we've never offered it. It's never been an issue in 20 years.
6th post, this thread :-/
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I misread, my mistake. I never said anything about California.
It's true though, we've never offered it at East Texas Spa. ;D
Terminator
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I have come to the conclusion that the only way to know for certain how much power a tub is using is to put a meter on the tub alone.
I have used the portable meter HotSpring sold me years ago to meter plug-in tubs. I have watched the thing prove time and time again that it was NOT the tub that created the jump in power consumption. I have only had to meter one 220 spa - yes, HS provided me with a meter that hardwires into the system - and it did the exact same thing: the tub was using around $24 per month for the coldest months here in paradise. *
Over the years I have had many folks use my meters to find other appliances which were gobbling up power - which they were all ready to blame on the poor hot tub. :-[ Unfortunately, some of them only did so after making all sorts of nasty threats, having my tech guys go over every part of their tub, calling the factory, screaming on the phone, and of the course the ever-popular 'yelling in the showroom.'
In two cases we found old refrigerators in the garage which were having problems, one freezer that was dying, and a window air-conditioner that had run dry of freon. These all ended up being repaired, replaced or removed and the bill went back to normal. One was a sauna which had been left on for who-knows how long when the snap-timer stuck.
My point is - go for a well-designed tub. But if your bill takes a jump and you suspect that the tub is eating more power than you think it should, be very thorough in checking out every single electrical appliance in your house. You may save a lot of time, irritation and money by doing so.
I appreciate the careful posting of power bills, but without a survey of all appliances, a chart of average outside temperature, a simple count of how many hours the various family members were home THIS year compared to LAST year, a look around for broken weatherstripping, checking the attic vents, the heating system controls and just about every other thing that could contribute to power consumption, the tub may be the very last thing you should be looking at.
A tenant in one of our rentals called and asked me to remove the security lighting on the front of the house she was leasing. I thought she was nuts, but I went over and discovered that all six flourescent bulbs had been replaced with 150w par lamps. That alone was making an impact on her electric bill, and not surprisingly: I mean, the things ran from dusk to dawn seven days. That's nine kW/H every night, based on ten hours of darkness. At 25 cents per, that was $2.25 per evening, or about $65 per month.
* We may have the nicest weather at 70 degrees average temp year 'round, but we also have some relatively high energy costs.
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Chas,
how much does a meter costs and how difficult is it to use?
You mention you have hooked it up to tubs, appliances and all sorts of electrical things. I'd love to play with one of these.
How can a homeowner "check out" every single applaince? Any tips?
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Drew,
I have two meters. One is a simple plug-in device. It has a full-sized electric meter(http://www.hotspring.com/Spas_Built_Last/gifs/pht_energy_meter.gif) like one for a house mounted to a grey electric box with a six-foot power cord. On one side is a 20 amp outlet.
You can plug this into an outlet (15 or 20 amp) and plug the spa into the outlet. Or, you can plug in your 'fridge, AC unit, or whatever you are checking.
I also have a 220 volt version, and it has a hub on the bottom of the box with 8 large wires handing out, all color-coded with tape. That one has to be wired into the system. It fits onto the top of one of the subpanels HS sends out with the spas, but the one time I went to use it that hub was in use and I had to rig it up.
I don't recall the cost of these items, the 110v one I bought about twenty years ago, and 220 one I bought about five or six years ago.
If you want to drop by I'll loan you one.
As far as checking out other appliances, you can simply plug them in and see how much power they consume. Some of them will be so bad that you see in one or two days that they need help. Others may take a month. One of the old fridges I mentioned in an earlier post wasn't necessarily broken, but when the customer saw how much power it was soaking up, they simply decided it wasn't worth keeping.
Some power companies offer check-ups free of charge, and they will do everything from thermal imaging of windows to amp-meter checks on major appliances.
I have also shut down as much as I could in a house EXCEPT the appliance in question, and then simply walked out the power meter on the side of the house and noted the start and stop readings over an hour or two. Easy to get the reading, but hard to remember to go plug everything else back in or turn it all back on.
Also, simple observation: if the furnace takes two hours to get the house warm when it only used to take 20 minutes, you may have a duct or vent disconnected in the attic - I did.
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Drew,
I have two meters. One is a simple plug-in device. It has a full-sized electric meter(http://www.hotspring.com/Spas_Built_Last/gifs/pht_energy_meter.gif) like one for a house mounted to a grey electric box with a six-foot power cord. On one side is a 20 amp outlet.
You can plug this into an outlet (15 or 20 amp) and plug the spa into the outlet. Or, you can plug in your 'fridge, AC unit, or whatever you are checking.
I also have a 220 volt version, and it has a hub on the bottom of the box with 8 large wires handing out, all color-coded with tape. That one has to be wired into the system. It fits onto the top of one of the subpanels HS sends out with the spas, but the one time I went to use it that hub was in use and I had to rig it up.
I don't recall the cost of these items, the 110v one I bought about twenty years ago, and 220 one I bought about five or six years ago.
If you want to drop by I'll loan you one.
As far as checking out other appliances, you can simply plug them in and see how much power they consume. Some of them will be so bad that you see in one or two days that they need help. Others may take a month. One of the old fridges I mentioned in an earlier post wasn't necessarily broken, but when the customer saw how much power it was soaking up, they simply decided it wasn't worth keeping.
Some power companies offer check-ups free of charge, and they will do everything from thermal imaging of windows to amp-meter checks on major appliances.
I have also shut down as much as I could in a house EXCEPT the appliance in question, and then simply walked out the power meter on the side of the house and noted the start and stop readings over an hour or two. Easy to get the reading, but hard to remember to go plug everything else back in or turn it all back on.
Also, simple observation: if the furnace takes two hours to get the house warm when it only used to take 20 minutes, you may have a duct or vent disconnected in the attic - I did.
Thanks for the offer to let me use the meter Chas. If I was iin your area, I'd take you up on it.
I am not to thrilled with unpluging things and reading the outside meter. The thought of touching behind the computer desk, or worse...the entertainment unit is enugh to casue a migraine.
My house is 100% electric and I know what properly set thermostats, clear dryer vents and efficent appliances can mean. Still everyone once in awhile my electric jumps. My wife automaticly blames the hot tub. (Sometimes I can see this...Yes, we did have a 3 hour party outsidie in Jan in the tub. Other times, it doens't add up. )
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After posting here and HottubDan passing the word along I got a call form the owner today. He was apologetic for not getting back to me sooner and told me that I was on his "to call" list... either way at least he acknowledged the fact that this cutomer existed. He mentioned putting a meter on the tub but he was going to have some of his guys come out and look over the tub.
I also let him know of some of the other "oversights" I experienced. Even though it too late to do me any good, maybe he can use the input to help improve things for future business...
I'll keep everyone posted w.r.t. what happens.
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Just a note: I have observed a $50 or $60 jump in the first month of spa ownership. It seems to happen no matter what model my customer selects.
After that first month, most of my customers report less than a dollar a day, depending on use and jet pump size.
I have metered tubs over the years, and generally they use less than people expect. Why the jump during the first month? I can't be certain, but I think it has to do with the folks being home more, opening the tub lid many extra times per day, making adjustments up and down in temperature, and so forth.
That seems really high. I would not have expected that, especially from a HS spa. This is not flame. Are you in Alaska or is power just really expensive in your area.
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That seems really high. I would not have expected that, especially from a HS spa.
That's the whole point - the increase in electrical use is NOT all from the spa!
Dealers, how many times have you had to be sure to get a tub delivered by a certain date because the customer had a big party, wedding, reunion, meeting or visit planned? Or how about, "we need to be sure it's running by Friday because my old college roomate will be arriving for a two-week visit with his wife and kid?"
I hear this all the time, yet nobody wants to keep in mind that having more people in a house will add to the electric bill even if there was not a spa anywhere to be found!
And no matter if your dryer is gas or electric, it still adds to the electric bill to some degree. So how many loads of towels are we doing now that there is a tub getting two uses a day?
I'm sorry if I sould a little exasperated, but I do believe most tubs with decent insulation will cost less than a buck a day to run in normal use regardless of the brand. I just have to chuckle when one of my precious customers calls and tells me, "nothing else changed, just the tub."
Look at your own bills for previous years if you keep them - even before your tub arrived there were jumps that couldn't be explained until you remember that relatives were visiting, there was a warm spell or cold spell, or some other change which was forgotten.
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Yep Chas.....you are right people seem to forget so many of the "little" things that along with a new spa may have happened during the month and pin it all down on the spa...I think if you want to get a better feel for your spa cost...give it 6 months of monitoring your bills and note any special occasion during the month that may add to energy consumption ...you just might be surpised....Any of the well made spas will cost "about" the same to operate over the month....if any were truly superior than they would not require 50 or in some cases 60 amps of juice to run them....
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Update: The HS techs came out yesterday and installed a meter on the tub, (finished around noon).
The meter shows a constant slow draw as expected. I checked it at 8 AM this morning and the tub had used 30 kWh overnight (about 20 hours elapsed with no use, Ambient temps yesterday near 80 and this AM in the low 60s, so pretty warm outside)
I'll check again at noon to get a more accurate 24 hour read, but at current rates, that puts the overnight cost at about $2.50. Using the rates the month I bought the spa, it would be about $1.90. When I turn the jets on the meter really flies! I plan on having a soak tonight so we'll see what happens.
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MXW, 30 KwH seems high for just "overnight", especially being so warm. That would cost me about $6 for the night at $.20 kWh. Are you sure the meter is reading correctly? At that pace my bill would be around $180 for the month. ???
Update: Â The HS techs came out yesterday and installed a meter on the tub, (finished around noon). Â
The meter shows a constant slow draw as expected. Â I checked it at 8 AM this morning and the tub had used 30 kWh overnight (about 20 hours elapsed with no use, Â Ambient temps yesterday near 80 and this AM in the low 60s, so pretty warm outside) Â
I'll check again at noon to get a more accurate 24 hour read, but at current rates, that puts the overnight cost at about $2.50. Â Using the rates the month I bought the spa, it would be about $1.90. When I turn the jets on the meter really flies! Â I plan on having a soak tonight so we'll see what happens.
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No, something's not right. 30 kWH would mean that something burned 3000 watts for ten hours. Just doing an average would mean the tub had to be doing 1250 watts per hour for 24 hours. If that had happened, the water would be boiling, or a motor would be running - other than the 85 watt circ pump that is.
Your heater burns around 4000 watts, so that would have had to run 7.5 hours to amount to 30kWH - which would raise the temp of the water about 70 degrees from where it started.
I guess I should ask: DID you raise the water 70 degrees? In other words, are we starting with cold water?
Also, are you leaving the temp setting at one point or changing it?
Your 85 watt circ pump should only use TWO kWH in a 24 hour period, so with some heating added it to maintain a two degree drop, I would say that THREE kWH might be normal.
Not tryin' to argue - and I know it is possible that something is wrong with your tub - but 30 kWH sure seems like something is hooked up wrong or bein' read wrong.
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Chas: THat's kinda my point here all along. At the power usage noted, $2.50 a day just in keeping the tub going would be about $75 a month. Add to that when I actually use it (I'm told that my 2-3 time/week is considered "light" usage) and it's easy to see why I've had a noticable rise in my electric bill. This preminlary data seems to support what I've been seeing. Certainly not "about a buck a day to operate" My whole effort here is pointed toward the question: "Is there something wrong with my tub?? Well , Hotspring, then fix it!! "
To answer some of the other questions:
Is the meter hooked up correctly? The HS tech hooked up the meter, so I have no idea what he did. I thought that it was pretty straight forward and I kinda figured that these guys would know what they are doing. He did say that he had to hook it up "reversed" so that it would count down, not up but that that was OK. I assume that this meter is standard HS fair, so do any of you HS dealers know about these? When I pop the GFI breakers, the meter also stops. Here's what's funny too: When I reset the breakers, the 20 Amp causes the meter to start moving slowly. THem when i reset the 30 Amp the meter takes off... although the front panel indicates that the water is at temp (set at 101 deg and the green light on)
Was the water cold? No, the water has been in the tub since the end of November/ early Dec whne I changed it. The panel indicated the water was at the tem p setting of 101 deg.
Could I be reading the meter wrong? Not likely, it's not like the meters on our house, with dials that read in different directions (clockwise and counterclockwise) Its a standard "rolling" counter, like an odometer so there is only one set of numbers visable through the window to read. Pretty straight forward, so I just take the difference between the readings to get the usage. Electric meters usually don't read down to the tenth. THere is no indication of a decimal point here. Point being that if I was reading 3.0 as 30, then the cost would be $.25/day which seems too low to be reasonable. But I could be wrong, so I'll call HS tomorrow and ask just to make sure.
What's interesting is that when I compare the meter speed to the one on my house meter, both spin slowly, but at times the meter on the house seems to move so slow it's almost not perceptable. The meter on the tub moves slowly but it's easy to see that it is always moving. Like I said before, when I turn on the jets, it takes off.
I'm gonna go take a soak and I'll post back with the usage... apologize for any typos above... my typing skill really suck
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Almost forgot: The reading at noon today was 32 kWh. (For the 24 hr usage)
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here what the meter looks like:
(http://www.pawpleaser.com/mike/meter1.jpg)
(http://www.pawpleaser.com/mike/meter2.jpg)
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OK, maybe we are getting to some steady state here: the reading this morning at about 8 AM, showed 9 kWh used since noon yesterday. My soak last night rolled 4 off the meter. At least I'm starting to see what I think most would agree are more reasonable numbers.
Is there some sort of reset that tub goes through when you power cycle it? Reason I ask is the delta between the two nights readings... the tech was here less than an hour and I know the water was at temp (101) when I left in the morning, so if he had the power turned off to the tub for an hour installing the meter, could it have lost that much water temp?? Other observable is that when I reset the breakers last night, the meter really flew for a while afterwards, then it slowed down..
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Chas, You gotta be right. Maybe that first days reading was a fluke or something. I had my wife take the reading when the tech left and (although I don't know how,) maybe she screwed it up.
Numbers for last night were better, 10 kWh used. A far cry from what I had for the previous 24 hrs. It's cooler out today, so we'll see what happens with it. The meter is just creeping along now.
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Great news, the tub is not broken and it is as energy efficient as advertised (LESS THAN $1/day)
I used the tub between 2 and 3 times a week. The weather has been warm (70+ the last couple of days, in the 60s for several days during the test period not gettign too cold during the day, some nights down the lower 40s) and I didn't do anything aside from "Normal" use (like change water or anything like that). The temp stayed set at 101 deg.
If I throw away the first data point (must have been a bad meter read) the total usage was 146 kWh or an average of 7.3 kWh/day!
At my rates of a bit over $0.08/kWh that equals just over $18 for the month or $0.60/day. Not too bad. Even if that doubles when it gets cold out, I think it still meets the spirit of the guarantee and shows that HS makes a good product.
The tub would account for only about 1/3 of what I saw my bills do, so I still need to find the source of the other 2/3 increase, but I'm pleased with the results!!
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I am glad that you had good results and this post returned. ANd I am hoping that somehow I get similar results but I didn't get upset until I eliminated every other variable that I could think of. I see my post to in response to Chas, as I expected the first bill to be higher..and maybe even the second. But after 3 months, I am convinced something is not right. WE spent the day changing all our lightbulbs to florescents..
Hopefully my electrician will shed some light on what ever is going.. ::)
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Great news. I'll bet your delaer is happy, too.
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WE spent the day changing all our lightbulbs to florescents..
That was the first thing we did when we bought our house......my son's room was first, because he's ALWAYS leaving his light on.
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I am going to Lowes tomorrow to pick up motion sensors for my basement, that is where they are most inclined to forget to turn off a light. I am a nut about wasting energy, my kids call me the electric lady.. :o :o
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I am going to Lowes tomorrow to pick up motion sensors for my basement, that is where they are most inclined to forget to turn off a light. I am a nut about wasting energy, my kids call me the electric lady.. :o :o
I did the same thing in our laundry room and bedroom closet. My wife still cranked up the timer, so it takes longer to turn off, but at least it turns off!! ;-)