Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: kc on March 12, 2006, 12:05:45 am
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How many pumps should a hot tub have. I'm Looking at Beachcomber 750 which have 2 pumps 3.5 and 4.5. Master spas 850 have 4 pumps 6.0. Please help.
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How many pumps do you think is enough?
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I don't really know thats why I'm asking this question.
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When a dealer is talking about pumps it means they do not have anything else to talk about. The number of pumps should have little factor in determining your purchase. Yes, I am serious.
The number of pumps don’t mean much of anything. Arguably the most popular spa ever made, Hotspring Sovereign, has only one jet pump.
However, is there a possibility you could try the Beachcomber and the Master and use that as a guide on how many pumps are important to you? Quite honestly, that is the best thing to do.
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Chris says it well, and hp does not mean much either, wet tests will give you the true measure of jet power,not horsepower. if you are going to try comparing hp to hp make sure it's continous duty.
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It really has to do with the plumbing, jets, how many seats are running at the same time and how the tub feels to you.
As mentioned, some tubs have only one pump and may feel great but if someone is sitting in another seat, they may get a light message or none. Some tubs have a pump for every seat.
Wet testing is hard to do for some people - I didn't do it. I might do it on the next tub, this is really the only way to know how a tub fits you. Sitting in a dry tub isn't the same. If you don't wet test, try to get a feel for the tub by having them turn it on ... at least you'll see the jet action.
Quite honestly the two brands have people who love them and I'm sure either one will be a good choice if you decide not to wet test.
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I ALMOST agree with every one else. There is only one statement I take issue with, but the poster disclaimed it by useing the word "arguably" in front of the rest of the statement. None the less, This whole pump number and hp thing just astounds me. If you really want to research this, find a pool builder that DOESNOT sell spas. Ask him to show you a 6 hp pump. You will soon realize that the sheer weight and size of a pump of that size is prohibitive in use in a self contained spa. A true 6 hp motor, WITHOUT the wet end is about 2 feet in length, add the wet end and now the complete pump is 2'6" now add the discharge and suction plumbing and the dang thing will never fit inside a cabinet. However, if you like their sales presentation and you think the product will work for you, then buy the thing, just be sure you realize what you are buying.
How many pumps should a hot tub have. I'm Looking at Beachcomber 750 which have 2 pumps 3.5 and 4.5. Master spas 850 have 4 pumps 6.0. Please help.
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Thank you for your feed back, You have all been a great help.
Thanks Again
KC
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I have a Beachcomber 580, it has one 4.5 hp pump. I wet tested the 750 and liked it but did not purchase because I did not like the lounge seat. The seat when not in use as a lounge hit me in the wrong place on my side. The one advantage of the 750 having two pumps is that you can direct on pump to the foot jets and the other pump to half the seats in the spa. This allows you to get full power on some seats as well as full power on the foot jets. My 580 with both the foot jets and the seat jets on reduces power in both. My dealer never mentioned the pumps or HP, I had to look it up in the manual.
On another not, I would buy the Turbo option, it is only $300 and is fun sometimes.
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Generally the more pumps, the less piping and diverter valves will be needed. You may also find that as the number of pumps increase their HP drops. So is it better to have one or two higher HP pumps, with more piping, or 3 or more smaller less powerful pumps with less piping. We could argue the merits and down side of each for months and never come to a conclusion. The number of pumps, and the number of jets, do not make a tub a good tub or a bad tub. Look for a tub that fits you well, made by a reputable manufacture, and sold by a dealer you can rely on. Also keep in mind that the HP figures you will be shown are break HP, or the power that the pump generates when it first starts. Continuous HP (what your pumps will really be running at) will be about 50% of break.
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While everybody has made very good points and they are right, let me take this perspective:
You can only sit in one seat at a time.
If you have "more" jets they require more gallons per minute, which either require a more powerful delivery system or a multiple delivery system.
95%, if not greater, 2 people or less are unsing the Hot Tub, that is of course unless you are a party animal and are buying it for social reason and you need to consider that too.
Different spas have differnt numbers of jets, but if you can sit in only one seat at a time, focus on what each seat has to offer.
Considering your significant other will most likely use the Hot Tub with you, focus on what you can do with the plumbing system. This means what can you power up. If you can not meet all of YOUR criteria, then maybe you need more pumps.
IF you are going to have multiple guests in the Hot Tub, family, friends, a party then be sure what ALL works or does not work.
As for the pumps themselves, ask about gallons per minute, because there are no horses coming out of the jets, and every body uses different hp rating most of which are mis-leading, and most of those are "overstating horsepower" numbers which is a nice way to say you are being feed a line of bull$hit, and you need to reconsider EVERYTHING they say.
Brake horse power is the rating of a pump on initial surge start up WITHOUT a work load.
Continuous horse power is the rating of a pump that is continusly under a WORK LOAD and is the truest numer that relates to the "delivered" power.
More jets, more bells, more whistles, MORE MONEY. This is the other factor that usually tells the truth. 4 to 5 pump systems are going to have more jets than a third world air force, and yet 1 pump systems are simply going to have fewer jets, requiring less gpm's, maybe ALL of the jets do not work at the same time, but they are usually less money and considered by some to be not what they are looking for.
Consider first what you want to afford, keep in mind every one is trying to impress you with what you see. Sit in them to get the feel, and considering that not everyone water tests the spas before they buy, at least ask what works when and if they all work at the same time. Sometimes the water test reveals more about what you didn't know or didn't think about, so encourage your significant other to water test with you.
After all, you are going to own it for a very long time.
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I do not know about Master spas but the HP numbers on the Beachcomber are continious HP. Not Break HP like Bob declared.
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I looked at Beachcomber's website and it doesnt say anything one way or another about HP, that I could find. However, it does offer an upgrade of 1 HP so you can "maximize your massage". My concern there would be that most manufacturers that I am aware of will match their pump output to that of the jets. Having the ability to order an "upgrade" HP without adding jets would mean that either it's under powered at the beginning or they are overpowering what the jets can handle and creating back pressure.
In my opinion, if you are going to add HP or pumps, you should be adding jets as well to stay balanced.
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In my opinion, if you are going to add HP or pumps, you should be adding jets as well to stay balanced.
I thought eating vegetables keeps you balanced! ;)
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To find the HP of a Beachcomber hot tub down load the owners manual and they have a chart with the data.
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I ALMOST agree with every one else. There is only one statement I take issue with, but the poster disclaimed it by useing the word "arguably" in front of the rest of the statement. None the less, This whole pump number and hp thing just astounds me. If you really want to research this, find a pool builder that DOESNOT sell spas. Ask him to show you a 6 hp pump. You will soon realize that the sheer weight and size of a pump of that size is prohibitive in use in a self contained spa. A true 6 hp motor, WITHOUT the wet end is about 2 feet in length, add the wet end and now the complete pump is 2'6" now add the discharge and suction plumbing and the dang thing will never fit inside a cabinet. However, if you like their sales presentation and you think the product will work for you, then buy the thing, just be sure you realize what you are buying.
Not not to start yet another FF/TP debate, but TP spas I would think would have more room with which to work. So perhaps it is possble for Master to have a 6 bhp pump or two under there. I'd be more likely to challenge the amperage draw. They claim 2-6hp pumps plus a3.5hp plus a circ pump, all with a 50 amp requirement. The three main pumps I would think would be awfully close to maxing out the breaker. But since I don't know the exact amp draw specs, it's only speculation.
As mentioned, a wet test is the best way to determine the feel of the jets vs flow.
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stl-rex, raises a good point, to verify horse power take the voltage (230) times the amperage (11-13 or whatever?) that will give you watts, and reduce that by the safety factor listed on the pump specifications label, usually 10% and divide by 742 (the # of watts in 1 hp).
In this equation that would be 230x11=2530 x10% = -253 =2277 /742= 3.1 horsepower, 13 amps would be 3.6 hp
And that is the TRUTH about horsepower. I don't care what they say it is, amps tell the truth.
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My caspian has 2 pumps. One is a 2hp 2 speed pump. the other is a single speed 2 hp pump. (there is also a circ pump for the tub as well).
These 2 pumps provide more than enough therapy for me.
As J_McD said, you can only sit in one seat at a time, but remember, you probably will have more than one person in the tub at a time. It's nice to be able to have the tub running and everything pumping out at once.
As others have said, the true way to tell is to wet test and compare these tubs with the pumps going and the jets and diverters all open and in different configurations.
:D
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I agree with Drew. That is why I gave my west test observations about the Beachcomber model 750. I don’t think pump power should be a deciding factor. I had it narrowed down to 3 Spa brands and wet tested each before purchasing.
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I do not know about Master spas but the HP numbers on the Beachcomber are continuous HP. Not Break HP like Bob declared.
I down loaded Beachcombers manual as you suggested, but did not see where they state that HP is continuous and not break. It took awhile of looking around on the internet but I did find one pump manufacturer that states there biggest spa pump is rated for 4hp continuous (Aqua-Flow). So I guess there are spa pumps out there that are rated this high. Not sure what type of pumps Beachcomber uses. Of course since we seem to be in agreement that pump HP is not a deciding factor in purchasing a tub, this argument might be getting a little silly. But I am interested in where you came by the information that BC rates there pumps in continuous HP
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We use true 4hp pumps on our swim spas. They list for around $1500-2000 and utilize 4" plumbing.
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I looked at my pump. The label on the pump said continious HP. I figured since my tub matched the manual they all must.
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I agree with most of the comments above. It's not the number of pumps, or the horsepower, or any dealer claims that matter... It's how the jets feel when you are wet testing that matter.
Here's an excerpt from my wet test report that defines what I firmly believe is the best apples-to-apples comparison you can make when comparing power between spas. I call it the Balanced Power Test.
Balanced Power Test Instructions: Set all jet pumps to full power, balance all diverter valves, spend time in every seat, and reach a conclusion based on feel.
For this test a spa should rate well if you get an enjoyable massage in all seats and with the foot jets; the more intense the balanced power, the better the grade. A spa will fail this test if the jets provide low to mild pressure when balancing the valves.
Reasons to use the Balanced Power Test:
- The results of this test should help make a more informed decision when considering a trade-off between price and power. Some people might decide to save money by purchasing a lower cost spa and using the diverters more.
- As an engineer I don’t think it is valid to judge a spa's performance by looking at the horsepower or CFM rating of the pumps. Any dealer who claims their spa is the most powerful is giving you a sales pitch. There are too many factors that contribute to how the spa actually feels when you are sitting in it. Examples include: number and diameter of the jets, actual power applied at the motor during use vs. the maximum rated power for the pumps, friction resistance due to the length of plumbing lines, number of right angles in the pipes, volume of water in the spa, etc...
- It is my opinion believe that a spa that can give good power to all seats will provide a much more intense massage when that power is diverted to one or more specific seats.
- During my wet tests of numerous brands I have found many spas that provide a good massage to all seats simultaneously. I have tried some that fail in this regard. Also, some of the spas I tested are designed with diverter valve restrictions and are simply incapable of enabling all jets simultaneously. It is up to you to determine if this is important.
The full wet test report and "how to buy a spa" advice is located at http://www.members.cox.net/duffman471/Spa_Wet_Testing_Analysis.htm
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How many pumps should a hot tub have.
At least one.
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Duffman,
The Beachcomber hot tubs I tested (580 and 750) will not far well with all of the jets on and the foot jets on. You definitely notice a reduction in power. If all of the jets are on and not the foot jets then you do not notice any power issues, but with the foot jets and the all the seats on it is a more mellow massage. But I still bought the Beachcomber.
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The Beachcomber hot tubs I tested (580 and 750) will not far well with all of the jets on and the foot jets on. You definitely notice a reduction in power. If all of the jets are on and not the foot jets then you do not notice any power issues, but with the foot jets and the all the seats on it is a more mellow massage. But I still bought the Beachcomber.
I hope you get many years of enjoyment from your Beachcomber. Since there is no such thing as the perfect hot tub, your wet test opinions and preferences is definitely the way to find the best spa for you. Congratulations on your purchase :)
I do highly recommend the Balanced Power Test (described in my previous post) as a means of comparing the power between spas in an apples-to-apples manner. I am very confident this test, combined with your preferences for jet diameter, number, and design, can really help shoppers make a more informed decision.
Although this test was very important to my own decision, I know the results are a lower priority in the final decision for many people. - Some have commmented that they prefer a more relaxed, milder massage experience
- Others rarely use more then 1-3 seats at any time and have no issue with using the diverter valves more
Here's the reasons the balanced power test was critical to my decision:
- I have back troubles and really value a stronger theraputic massage experience. Even if I'm only using one seat I have a firm opinion that that a spa with better balanced power will feel all the more intense when the diverter valves are used.
Note: One exception to this is the Marquis Epic. It has an unusual diverter valve system called trizone that directs power to one of three groups of jets for each of the two valves. However, it cannot support a balanced power test (i.e., you cannot effectively activate all the jets simultaeously). Regardless, when using it's diverter valves the spa definitely provides a strong massage.
Disclaimer: I included this note to be fair to Marquis since the Epic's valve system is quite different from other spas on the market. I highly recommend you understand the Trizone system and it's limitations before putting your money down. If you still like what you see then I certainly would recommend a wet test. If you are considering one you'll be in the company of many satisfied customers.
For a more detailed description see the Marquis section of my wet test report: http://www.members.cox.net/duffman471/Spa_Wet_Testing_Analysis.htm
- Since I decided to get a large spa that can comfortably seat 7 people, I darn well wanted all my guests to be able to enjoy the jets in their seats. Lots of spas out there make it necessary to turn down jets to one part of the spa in order to enjoy another. I say why compromise if you don't have to? ;D
- When I get in my hot tub I want turn on the pumps, relax, and enjoy the back and foot jets from any seat; without ever having to move or adjust to change settings. Like the Ronco Rotisserie slogan, I just "set it and forget it." This was a huge reason the balanced power test was important to my decision.
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Duffman,
I enjoyed your reviews in the past and like your testing system. One of the reasons I bought my tub was that it had great power in all the seats with all the jets on. It only loses power when the foot jets are on at the same time. As you say it buying a tub depends on a lot of factors. One of my main factors was that the wife really like the look of the Beachcomber and that is hard to argue with.
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I do not know about Master spas but the HP numbers on the Beachcomber are continious HP. Not Break HP like Bob declared.
Wrong. Plain and simple. Sorry.
Waterway, the maker of the pumps on Beachcomber and many spas (including the ones I sell) does not offer true horsepower ratings. The sell bHP motors from 1-5.
I too beleived this when I sold their product. I later learned that I was mislead (by factory representatives no less). Do not begrudge your dealer, they just trusted the manufacturer.
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Marks, just as example your pump reads :
Volts 230
Amps 4/12
Am I correct? By the way, remove that little sticker ( i think its blue) on the motor and you will see the hp # doesn't match.
Using this online calculator:
http://www.onlineconversion.com/motor_horsepower.htm
Even assuming 100% efficiency (which is not possible if the motor gets warm while it is operating) the maximum hp of that motor is 3.7.
A more realistic efficiency yields a hp rating of 2.96 or lower.
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HotTubMan,
I will check this out when I get home, but I am pretty sure it says 240v. I never discussed HP with the dealer and it did not factor into my purchase decision. On the ohter hand this is an interesting topic.
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HotTubMan,
I will check this out when I get home, but I am pretty sure it says 240v. I never discussed HP with the dealer and it did not factor into my purchase decision. On the ohter hand this is an interesting topic.
Fair enough. I just thought since you said that the Beachcomber pumps were continuous, someone had told you that.
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I took a look at the pump. It is a A. O. Smith pump not Waterway. The voltage is 230v and 16 Amps , and it says continous HP 4/4.8 on the label. None of the labels peal off. If you use around .9 for the efficiency then you get a 4.5 continous HP pump. So I think the pump is 4.5 continous.