Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: gbw on March 15, 2006, 06:14:26 pm
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been lurking and learning for months, and i enjoy this board. good info, opinion, facts and fancy. will be doing some wet testing this w/end. any preferences on the emerald M570, or the sundance altamar? thanks.
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I'd rather own a Sundance, but that is my personal opinion. I believe it to be a better value.
Good luck with whichever you choose. :)
Terminator
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Emerald and Sundance are both good spas.
However, IMO Emerald gives you more features for less money than Sundance. And Emerald builds a solid spa.
I'd rather own an Emerald.
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You really need to wet test them both to find out which is the best choice for you. Our opinions on the matter are really mostly meaningless. Also, consider the dealer because if something goes wrong....
Good luck and let us know what you decide.
Bill
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opinions aside as much as possible.....are Emerald and Sundance pretty even quality-wise?
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opinions aside as much as possible.....are Emerald and Sundance pretty even quality-wise?
No ma'am. (Whoops)
Terminator
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No ma'am. (Whoops)
Terminator
I agree. Sundance would be considered by most as a higher end manufacturer.
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I agree. Sundance would be considered by most as a higher end manufacturer.
I'm not quite sure how you've arrived at this, but I disagree.
Higher price maybe...but not higher end.
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I'm not intamately familliar with either brand. I know Sundance has a decent rep, and recently Viper Dude bought an Emerald, and I was blown away for the features/price he paid.
Rather than just disagreeing on these tubs, can anyone provide reaons why one might be better quality than the other?
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In my decidedly biased opinion there is no comparison. ;D
Make that decision on your own by paying attention, to fit and finish (is there a gap between the shell and cabinet?), have them pull a jet out of the tub so you can see which is more likely to last for 15 - 20 years, have each turn on their air blower (which is quieter?), look at the filters (which do you think will do a better job?), listen to how they insulate the tub (which story do you believe?), etc.
Emerald are Mfg. in my area so I've seen a lot of them. Not a bad tub, but.........
Good Luck
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Can you tell me what the warranty is on the jets and the cabinet for the Emerald? For some odd reason it is not mentioned on the warranty. The major manufacturers do mention those items. Sundance mentions it in their warranty.
Now, lets talk about the outside specifically the cabinet. On the Emerald, go ahead and knock on it. Tell me if you think it will last 10 years. Also, tell me if it is going to be holding the heat in from the thermo-pane insulation.
Pressurized filtration system I guess Emerald really enjoys letting all the water hit the heater before it is filtered. At least Sundance filters the water before it hits the heater.
Back to the heater, Sundance offers an unconditional warranty on the heater. I didn’t see that mentioned on Emerald’s site. Also, Sundance uses a Titanium heater that is impervious to corrosion. Does Emerald use that type of heater as well?
It appears Emerald uses hand rolled fiberglass on their shell. Not really good for quality control if you ask me especially if you miss a spot.
Do you really want me to go on?
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Here is an idea, go back to the Emerald dealer and ask for the names of recent buyers and also ask for names of long term useres. Also talk to their service manager and techs. You will be amazed at the ton of information you can get.
Hope this helps
r100rs
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Sorry, I don't know anything about the Emerald but since you are looking at the Sundance Altamar you must be interested in a lounger.
When I was shopping, I too had narrowed my choices down to the Sundance Altamar and another brand. I took my fiancee with me to test it out. He is 6'1" and did not fit at all in the Altamar. The pillow on the lounger hit him at his shoulderblades. We ended up going with the Cameo since the lounger is larger and shaped differently.
I'm not trying to persuade you either way, just wanted to be sure that you are aware that not all tubs will fit you the same especially if you are looking at one with a lounger.
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Here is an idea, go back to the Emerald dealer and ask for the names of recent buyers and also ask for names of long term useres. Also talk to their service manager and techs. You will be amazed at the ton of information you can get.
Hope this helps
r100rs
I agree, this will give you a good idea as to the quality of Emerald. Also, see which dealer you feel will take care of you, even after the sale.
Enjoy the wet tests!!
I'm sorry I just had to respond to Chris' post:
Emerald's warranty is 5 years on the jets and cabinet. The only cabinet warranty for Sundance, according to their website is that it will be "free from defects in workmanship or material at the time of delivery."
I would suggest more than just knocking on the Emerald cabinet, give it a good hit or kick. I think that will answer the durability questions of the cabinet.
With Sundance's filtration system, you better keep your filters clean and hope nothing clogs them or you might restrict the waterflow to the pumps. But that has been beaten to death...
Both have the same plumbing and equipment warranty. But Sundance only has a 10 year shell warranty, Emerald has a 25 year non prorated warranty
In regards to the "unconditional" warranty on the heater. The only thing I read is that Sundance's limited warranty will be void if they determine that the spa has been neglected or abused, including the failure to maintain proper water chemistry. That sounds like a conditional warranty to me !!! If they use a "Titanium heater that is impervious to corrosion", why is there a conditional warranty????????
And rolling out sprayed on fiberglass by hand to make sure the shell is solid with no air pockets is NOT good for quality control?? I think Emerald's shell warranty speaks for itself.
Shall I go on?
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If you asked 100 people what the top 5 hot tub manufacturers are... how many would include Sundance in that list and how many would include Emerald?
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Emerald's warranty is 5 years on the jets and cabinet. The only cabinet warranty for Sundance, according to their website is that it will be "free from defects in workmanship or material at the time of delivery.
Why is the cabinet or jets not on the warranty? Please show me somewhere that it is included. I will believe it when it is seen. I did not notice any exclusions either. Every warranty has exclusions. Here is the site I was looking at:
http://emeraldspa.com/information_and_support/warranty.html
I have given the Emerald cabinets a good hit on the side on 2005 models. Sorry, but I don’t see it holding that hot air inside or together or 10 years.
Emerald's warranty is 5 years on the jets and cabinet. The only cabinet warranty for Sundance, according to their website is that it will be "free from defects in workmanship or material at the time of delivery.
You must be reading the wrong warranty on the Sundance because it clearly states “free from material defects” for two years. Here is the site:
http://sundancespas.com/Innovation/800Warranty.pdf
With Sundance's filtration system, you better keep your filters clean and hope nothing clogs them or you might restrict the waterflow to the pumps. But that has been beaten to death...
I will take restriction on flow over replacing a motor or heater. Also, with Sundance’s new filtration on the 880 series restriction does not happen as often as it once did if at all.
Both have the same plumbing and equipment warranty. But Sundance only has a 10 year shell warranty, Emerald has a 25 year non prorated warranty.
And this really matters? Seriously, 25 years or 10 years on the shell. No big deal. It is the spa surface that matters. Both are 7 years.
In regards to the "unconditional" warranty on the heater. The only thing I read is that Sundance's limited warranty will be void if they determine that the spa has been neglected or abused, including the failure to maintain proper water chemistry. That sounds like a conditional warranty to me !!! If they use a "Titanium heater that is impervious to corrosion", why is there a conditional warranty?
From Sundance’s website: “The titanium coil protects the Smart Heater from corrosion or failure, and carries an unconditional 5-year warranty.” Obviously, the heater is not conditional.
http://sundancespas.com/Innovation/Energy.html
And rolling out sprayed on fiberglass by hand to make sure the shell is solid with no air pockets is NOT good for quality control?? I think Emerald's shell warranty speaks for itself.
It is not good for quality control because it can make for inconsistency in production. Inconsistency is bad for production of anything. Think about manufacturing Tylenol. If Tylenol is inconsistent by .0001% it fails. Think about that.
Shall I go on?
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Hamburger or Filet Mignon?
I'm trying to decide what to have for dinner tonight. There are two restaurants here in town, one has Filet the other Hamburger. The Filet is more $$ and seems to come with less while the Hamburger guy said I could have a bun and the condiments of my choice FREE!! Beef is beef and they both guarantee my satisfaction so they must be the same, right?
Please help, I'm hungry!
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Spam.......definitely the Spam. With Velveeta. ;D
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Sorry, I don't know how to do multiple quotes, so I can respond to each question, so I did it this way....
Chris H: Why is the cabinet or jets not on the warranty? Please show me somewhere that it is included. I will believe it when it is seen. I did not notice any exclusions either. Every warranty has exclusions. Here is the site I was looking at:
http://emeraldspa.com/information_and_support/warranty.html
I have given the Emerald cabinets a good hit on the side on 2005 models. Sorry, but I don’t see it holding that hot air inside or together or 10 years.
Veeper: Well, that's what you say you did. And again everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but I guess proof is in the pudding. Funny, Sundance uses a similar cabinet structure and identical synthetic cabinet as Emerald, but when you put your knee up to the corner of the Sundance cabinet why does it bow and Emerald's doesn't?
Chris H: You must be reading the wrong warranty on the Sundance because it clearly states “free from material defects” for two years. Here is the site:
http://sundancespas.com/Innovation/800Warranty.pdf
Veeper: You are correct, I was mistaken. Sundance's is 2 years. Emerald's is 5 years.
Chris H: I will take restriction on flow over replacing a motor or heater. Also, with Sundance’s new filtration on the 880 series restriction does not happen as often as it once did if at all.
Veeper: Ummmm, if there is a restriction of water to the pumps for a period of time, they burn up don't they? So you'd have to replace the motors. And that's what you'd take?
Chris H: And this really matters? Seriously, 25 years or 10 years on the shell. No big deal. It is the spa surface that matters. Both are 7 years.
Veeper: I believe it only matters to those purchasing or owning spas. What happens if a crack develops in the surface at year 8. Does Sundance still guarantee that no water will get through the shell into the cabinet area? Emerald does. What about 25 years from now? Emerald does.
Chris H: From Sundance’s website: “The titanium coil protects the Smart Heater from corrosion or failure, and carries an unconditional 5-year warranty.” Obviously, the heater is not conditional.
http://sundancespas.com/Innovation/Energy.html
Veeper: Then why is there an exclusion to it?
http://sundancespas.com/Innovation/800Warranty.pdf
Chris H: It is not good for quality control because it can make for inconsistency in production. Inconsistency is bad for production of anything. Think about manufacturing Tylenol. If Tylenol is inconsistent by .0001% it fails. Think about that.
Veeper: I do. But tylenol is made by machines that make the product....Kinda how Sundance does it, right?
Well, I'd rather have a person building and inspecting the shell to see if it is to specifications than a robot that doesn't even know that it has made a good or bad shell.
Chris H: Shall I go on?
Veeper: Let's call it a day.
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people suck. I want a mid-week tub.
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Its clear Veeper that you think a Sundance is not the tub yours is. But you clearly don't know the operation of a Sundance. If the filter would get clogged which is very unlikely, the controller will shut down the unit. Thus no damage to anything. If you want to own your spa for 25 years, then you are living in a dream world. I buy caddys and pay a hell of a lot more for them and don't own them for 25 years. Get real, you sound like some kid,"my dad can beat up your dad".
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There must be something wrong with Emerald if "He who's name is forever stricken from the sacred scrolls" has at least a grudging respect for them. At least he did last time I noticed. That might have changed by now. ;)
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What is the benefit of pressure side filtration?
What is the size of the heater on the Emerald? 4kW, 5.5kW, or 6kW?
"Veeper: Ummmm, if there is a restriction of water to the pumps for a period of time, they burn up don't they? So you'd have to replace the motors. And that's what you'd take? "
There are no restrictions on the main motors in the 880 series. There is only a filter for the circulation pump.
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Tell 'em, Serj!!
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I just received the complete warranty from Emerald with page two that is not on the website. I can PDF and send to anyone that wishes to receive a copy. My email is chrish484@hotmail.com
The cabinet only comes with a part warranty and not a labor warranty.
The pump seals are not warranted for 5 years. It appears to me they only have a 2-year warranty and do not have a labor warranty.
O-rings and the stainless steel escutcheons on the jets are not covered at all.
There is a sentence in the warranty that states “additional labor required to complete the warranted repair”? Never read that before on a any spa. That means the dealer can charge additional labor to the consumer.
I’m calling it a day.
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interesting comments all around. wet tested the emerald m570 last night at local dealer (maker of regionally-known pool tables here in town). really liked the two big power jets, but the rest were average. temp set at 104, and after testing felt very weak. may take a break for a while, but still want to test the sundance altamar. might try the coleman, too. thanks to all for comments.