Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: bosco0633 on March 03, 2006, 12:26:10 pm
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Ok, At 12:00pm on todays date, I have decided to take Vinny and his scientific knowledge to task. For once and for all, for piece of mind, I want to prove TO MYSELF that TP and FF are both of equal quality.
So if Vinny can do this research on face value, then I can as well.
Current temp tub temp 104
-5°C
A few clouds
FEELS LIKE -11°C
WIND N 19 km/h
GUSTS
RELATIVE HUMIDITY 53%
DEWPOINT -13°C
PRESSURE 102.33 kPa
VISIBILITY 24 km
CEILING unlimited
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I should think to insure complete accuracy and comparibility you should run out and purchase a FF tub to put next to the TP tub to compare side by side before starting your test!
No cost is too great for science, right?
[glb];D[/glb]
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Bosco,
Please don't take my "study" as a slam on TP as I originally was going to buy a TP tub but ended up with a FF instead (liked the tub - nothing to do with insulation).
I truely believe that ALL well made tubs are efficient and have pros and cons. Quite honestly, your cost of $17.00 Canadian is much cheaper than my $50-60 a month US.
Vinny
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no slam brother. I just want to be able to say, that I tried the study myself and can add some of my own input rather than relying on studies made by "independent" companies. I guess just piece of mind. This should resolve the issue in my own mind. In fact, my neighbour has a hydro pool and I am on my way to asking him to partake in the expierence. It is amazing what a few beers can make good neighbours do.
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It is amazing what a few beers can make good neighbours do.
Peeing in the tub DOESN'T count! ;D
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no slam brother. I just want to be able to say, that I tried the study myself and can add some of my own input rather than relying on studies made by "independent" companies. I guess just piece of mind. This should resolve the issue in my own mind. In fact, my neighbour has a hydro pool and I am on my way to asking him to partake in the expierence. It is amazing what a few beers can make good neighbours do.
The real reason for my "observation" was I forgot that I turned the heater down since I had the foam and wanted to change the water ... the "scientific discovery" happened by accident! I can be such an idiot at times ... my wife will attest to that! ::)
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ok so I dropped the temp all the way down so the tub will not heat with the heater. It is coming up to the 4 hour mark, I just peeked in and the tub is sitting at 104. So we will wait and see what happens, so far so good.
4 hours elapsed.
temp
-4°C tub 104
A few clouds
FEELS LIKE -12°C
WIND W 33 km/h
GUSTS
RELATIVE HUMIDITY 58%
DEWPOINT -11°C
PRESSURE 102.30 kPa
VISIBILITY 24 km
CEILING unlimited
Vinny, you said you ran the circ pump straight? I dont have one so what about the cleaning cycles, what do you set them at.
Drewster, should I let the filter cycles go or just leave it. Right now, I have basically prevented the heater from activiating, the only heat generating is 4 2 hour cycles a day. No circ pump.
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Bosco,
This is where your tub excels at and mine sucks. The heat of the pumps is just that and since you don't have a circ pump and you do need to filter the water, I say leave it alone.
This is the true "scientific method"! I believe it's unreasonable to say that you can't run the cleaning cycles as my tub did clean itself.
I wouldn't dare trip the breaker on my trub in the winter for 40 hours but if you want to retest this in the summer ... ;D
Vinny
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You two are starting to remind me of the Guinness beer guys with your scientific prowess!!!! ;D ;D ;D
"Brilliant!!!"
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/guinesstpff.jpg)
Terminator
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the only heat generating is 4 2 hour cycles a day. No circ pump.
I'd guess that you'd want to reduce that to two-2 hr filter cycles/day to more closely equate to the circ pump filtering.
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I'd guess that you'd want to reduce that to two-2 hr filter cycles/day to more closely equate to the circ pump filtering.
My pump circulates about 11 GPM, so for 24 hours that'll be 15,840 gallons filtered. But if 2 4 hour cycles are the norm, then I would say that's what it should be.
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My pump circulates about 11 GPM, so for 24 hours that'll be 15,840 gallons filtered. But if 2 4 hour cycles are the norm, then I would say that's what it should be.
That's a decent GPM circ pump and I guess you're trying to simulate the heater being off so you're probably right to leave the filtering as is.
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That's a decent GPM circ pump and I guess you're trying to simulate the heater being off so you're probably right to leave the filtering as is.
Artesian advertises this on their website but that figure was for their 2004 circ pump. The pump that I have is a 240 Volt pump that looks like a therapy pump. My assumption which may be wrong is that since it's a bigger pump, it should have about (or more) GPM.
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Ok 24 hours have passed. I have the temp at the lowest setting, and I have left the cycles the way you have suggested. It dropped down to -9 overnight -20 with windchill. cold cold night.
Todays temps from the local airport
-3°C
A few clouds
FEELS LIKE -11°C
WIND NW 31 km/h
GUSTS
RELATIVE HUMIDITY 63%
DEWPOINT -9°C
PRESSURE 102.38 kPa
VISIBILITY 24 km
CEILING unlimited
So 24 hours passed and the tub was just checked, and I am sitting at 102 right now. The temp has been consistantly cold for the past 24 hours.
Recap, started yesterday at 12pm, at 104. I have left the filtering alone and I am down 2 degrees in 24 hours.
Opinions so far, or suggestions?????
Oh yeah, could not convince neighbour to partake. And really, I cant trip breaker out of fear with these temps.
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I can't do this where I live. My tub has been known to get warmer even with the breaker for the heating system off. The circ pump, combined with good weather, tends to heat the tub up to close to 100 and hold it there. In fact, in hot weather the thing will go over 104 and I have to engage the Summer Switch to kill the circ pump during the heat of the day. This only happens if I'm not using the spa daily.
So, This is good. In fact, to make it better, I suggest that we find a cold spot in the country - perhaps near a major ski resort in Colorado or somehting - and set up a bunch of different spas.
Then run 'em for a month and check the amount of electjuicity each one takes - and then we should just shut 'em all down and see which one freezes first.
What d'ya think?
;)
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So, This is good. In fact, to make it better, I suggest that we find a cold spot in the country - perhaps near a major ski resort in Colorado or somehting - and set up a bunch of different spas.
Then run 'em for a month and check the amount of electjuicity each one takes - and then we should just shut 'em all down and see which one freezes first.
What d'ya think?
;)
I am sure there is a government agency out there that would think this is a FINE use of grant money. We all pay taxes, right?
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My belief is as NJDave said that a well constructed TP spa will keep the water warmer due to the motor's heat.
Bosco, I'm glad to see that your tub maintains it's heat very well. Obviously Arctric builds TP pretty well ... at least you and I can sleep at night knowing that our tubs won't frreeze solid in a couple of hours! ;) ;D
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I am confused a bit here.....(ok so its not the first time)...but if you spa heats on its filter cycles than I would think the only real way to find out if one FF or TP works better is to cut the power for an extended period of time....I think that was snypers point that he had no power at all to the spa and this is what he lost....also if there is a break point ...meaning how will one which ever it might be keep things warm for say 18 hours but after that things start to drop quickly and with one it might be 30 hours or something....but if you are recapturing heat while filtering that is what the spa is supposed to do.....or am I missing something...... ???
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Mendo.
It started with my thread of my tub retaining it's heat and the only thing running was the circ pump. It was because of my turning down the heat on Wed to do a water change (and not doing one) and forgetting about it until Fri.
Quite honestly, I won't nor do I expect anyone else to shut down a perfectly good tub in the winter to see what happens. I'll leave that up to the manufacturers! I also don't want Bosco's water to get skunky, my tub was filtering ... so that's why he has his filter cycles going.
I think it's pretty impressive that Bosco's tub retained that much heat with only the pump(s) running on a filter cycle. It's a good example of a well constructed spa, IMO. I truely expected his water to lose more temp than it did - thinking that the water is sitting in the vessel without circulating for a number of hours and when the pump kicks on, it'll go up a degree or so.
This wasn't a due to a bash, challange or anything else. I think I can speak for Bosco that our "experiments" were for our own knowledge. I now know for sure that if my heater ever goes, I just got to keep that circ pump going until it can be replaced and in 20 - 30 F temp I have about a week.
Vinny
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Vinny,
I understand and I should have been more clear that I was relating this test to something with no power on it....Marquis as that I am most familiar with does not use a circ pump and on the economy setting 2 hours of filtering twice a day it will in most cases maintain a temp of 104 ....Snyper had mentioned having no power with only a minimal loss of heat.....cheers to all for the good information you guys are putting out.....
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Bosco,
As Mendocino mentioned, since your motors are still producing heat for the spa and under skirt area. The study is not accurate, because you are still producing heat. If motors run, you can heat a spa to 100+ degrees. Remember, Softubs have no heater, they draw heat from the motor only.If motors continue to run, the water is warmed by water running through the hot motors. The only true test to watch temperature drop for your spa is to shut off the breaker and see how well the temperature holds then. Otherwise you are wasting your time. Of course, we don't want anyone to shut down their breaker and possibly damage their beautiful spa, due to freeze cracking. Even though your heater is turned down, your motors are producing heat. Now, Chas made a great point, to see which spa is the most effecient overall. Placing 10 manufacturers side by side, set at the same temperature, for a period of three months, with each spa having it's own meter, to determine which is really the most effecient, set at 100 degrees and operated 7 times per week on high speed for an hour a day. Then we will know which is the winner. Lets do it. Shall we say Minnesota? I'll have to buy one of those hats with the flap. Dave.
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So, This is good. In fact, to make it better, I suggest that we find a cold spot in the country - perhaps near a major ski resort in Colorado or somehting - and set up a bunch of different spas.
Then run 'em for a month and check the amount of electjuicity each one takes - and then we should just shut 'em all down and see which one freezes first.
What d'ya think?
;)
I think this went over most everybody's head!!!
Ahhh, the great spa challenge.
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Ok, I have been testing this out for about 30 hours now. My tub without the heater running has maintained a temperature of 102. This has been great. I would love to try the study of shutting it down, but I dont want to have any issues in the event of cold weather. I agree with you that the test may not be that great of one, but I just wanted to see with these cold temperatures here in Canada, what my tub will be like without a heater.
Does it help contribute to things, maybe maybe not, but like Vinny says, it is piece of mind for myslef and others that always wondered. Ill continue until tommorow at 12pm. Maybe after that, I will go 12 hours without power just to see.
-1°C tub temp 102
Clear
FEELS LIKE -6°C
WIND W 19 km/h
GUSTS
RELATIVE HUMIDITY 55%
DEWPOINT -9°C
PRESSURE 102.51 kPa
VISIBILITY 24 km
CEILING unlimited
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I think this went over most everybody's head!!!
Ahhh, the great spa challenge.
;)
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almost 36 hours in, and the tub is holding at 102.
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call me crazy, but I tripped the breaker at 12pm, I am going to let it go over night just to see.
-6°C tub 102 still
Clear
WIND W 6 km/h
GUSTS
RELATIVE HUMIDITY 93%
DEWPOINT -7°C
PRESSURE 102.61 kPa
VISIBILITY 24 km
CEILING unlimited
I will do this until the 12pm and then turn it back on and end my personal satisfaction study.
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Mine usualy holds without the heater also, as long as I let it filter as you are for a minumum of 8-12 hours a day. If I lower the filter time to 4-6 I will start to loose a couple degrees a day. The real test begins when you power down the motor.
If you do this do not look at your vessel for reassurance it is not frozen. Loosen a union at the pump to see if the water is still liquid. And be carefull in the pump and heater as there is steel in there and water around cold steel in a smaller space will freeze the quickest. And the worst part is you will not know if it freezes unless you take off the side panel and then you will let all the heat out.
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Then we will know which is the winner. Lets do it. Shall we say Minnesota? I'll have to buy one of those hats with the flap. Dave.
Dave and others, start sending your spas this way I have the perfect spot for this test and I will, at no cost to you, supply the power and the personell to monitor and utilize the spas every day for 1 hour. After the test I will supply non subjective data back to those who supplied spas. And a photo of the spa supplied to go alone with that data. Incase you wanted to remember what spa you sent. PM me for the address, common carrier is fine I have unloading capability. Maybe some of you guys should get together get a bunch on one truck to save on some shipping cost.
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I feel like I have stumbled into a Mythbusters episode. ;)
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WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW
OK last night, I tripped the breaker just to see. The temp last night dropped to -9 and it felt really cold. It was 102 when I shut it down. 12 hours have passed and I just opened it up to see where I am at. 100 degrees. Droped 2 degrees overnight with no power. I powered it back up and the tub is running fine no issues. I opend the side panel just to see what is going on, and I must say, it was still very warm in there. I am assuming the heat from the water kept the cavity warm. I am very happy with these results and have decided to end my study.
To recap, 48 hours of no heater maintained 102 temperature with basic filter cycles on. I then shut the power off over night for 12 hours and the tub only dropped 2 degrees.
What does this all mean???? who knows. But at the end of the day, I can say that my tub performs well and in the event of a power failure, I think that i should be ok for atleast 24 to 48 hours in -9 degree weather.
So I would suggest, that my TP tub is really an effective product for MY NEEDS.
Thank you for your time and here is the current temp.
-1°C
A few clouds
FEELS LIKE -6°C
WIND NW 17 km/h
GUSTS
RELATIVE HUMIDITY 55%
DEWPOINT -9°C
PRESSURE 102.64 kPa
VISIBILITY 24 km
CEILING unlimited
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WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW
OK last night, I tripped the breaker just to see. The temp last night dropped to -9 and it felt really cold. It was 102 when I shut it down. 12 hours have passed and I just opened it up to see where I am at. 100 degrees. Droped 2 degrees overnight with no power. I powered it back up and the tub is running fine no issues. I opend the side panel just to see what is going on, and I must say, it was still very warm in there. I am assuming the heat from the water kept the cavity warm. I am very happy with these results and have decided to end my study.
To recap, 48 hours of no heater maintained 102 temperature with basic filter cycles on. I then shut the power off over night for 12 hours and the tub only dropped 2 degrees.
What does this all mean???? who knows. But at the end of the day, I can say that my tub performs well and in the event of a power failure, I think that i should be ok for atleast 24 to 48 hours in -9 degree weather.
So I would suggest, that my TP tub is really an effective product for MY NEEDS.
Thank you for your time and here is the current temp.
-1°C
A few clouds
FEELS LIKE -6°C
WIND NW 17 km/h
GUSTS
RELATIVE HUMIDITY 55%
DEWPOINT -9°C
PRESSURE 102.64 kPa
VISIBILITY 24 km
CEILING unlimited
Bosco - that's impressive IMO!!!
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WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW
OK last night, I tripped the breaker just to see. The temp last night dropped to -9 and it felt really cold. It was 102 when I shut it down. 12 hours have passed and I just opened it up to see where I am at. 100 degrees. Droped 2 degrees overnight with no power. I powered it back up and the tub is running fine no issues. I opend the side panel just to see what is going on, and I must say, it was still very warm in there. I am assuming the heat from the water kept the cavity warm. I am very happy with these results and have decided to end my study.
To recap, 48 hours of no heater maintained 102 temperature with basic filter cycles on. I then shut the power off over night for 12 hours and the tub only dropped 2 degrees.
What does this all mean???? who knows. But at the end of the day, I can say that my tub performs well and in the event of a power failure, I think that i should be ok for atleast 24 to 48 hours in -9 degree weather.
So I would suggest, that my TP tub is really an effective product for MY NEEDS.
Thank you for your time and here is the current temp.
-1°C
A few clouds
FEELS LIKE -6°C
WIND NW 17 km/h
GUSTS
RELATIVE HUMIDITY 55%
DEWPOINT -9°C
PRESSURE 102.64 kPa
VISIBILITY 24 km
CEILING unlimited
Great report Bosco!
I've had Coleman spas without power for up to 4 days during blizzards and we've never lost one yet.
TP done right is every bit as effective as FF. ;)
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no comments!!!!
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What is -9C about 20 degrees F?
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-9C it is 15.8F
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OK...thanks I was just trying to get a perspective on how cold it was. We have been on a bit of a cold snap also with lows at night up until last night in the 0-5 above range F Then it has been snowing for 2 days and it is now 15 but will get to 30 above I am sure today with 40's predicted this week and more snow. I'm getting awfully sick of moving snow!!
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Wow.
Tripping the power was interesting. I am trying to understand just how much heat the pumps provide, as well as the insulation of the cabinet.
Cutting the power for 12 hours and loosing only 2 degrees at the water? That is impressive. :)
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Nicely done and thanks for sharing that bosco.
For the record, your neighbor with the Hydropool just didn't want to show you up most likely! ;)
If nothing else, this test has given you peace of mind which is something we should all have with our spas.
Steve
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I think everyone should put together a contengency plan for power down situations.
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I think everyone should put together a contengency plan for power down situations.
Is that a recommendation for cold climates or everyone? If you dont live somewhere that it freezes, is there antything to worry about? (Aside from a power outage for days in which you have no filtration)- ewwww.