Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: Snyper on February 27, 2006, 02:24:17 am
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I've tried opening up the Spa frog cartridge and replacing the spent bromine with tablets but the bromine levels have bottomed out.
I spoke with my dealer, and he said the reason is the original Spa frog cartridges are filled with fine granuals and that tablets will not disolve correctly within the Marquis system.
I even opened up the cartridge all the way open and the bromine level stayed way low.
Today, I put in a new factory Spa Frog and within 4 hours, my bromine level was back up to normal.
Just wanted to know if anyone else had this same problem.
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I've tried both- granuals and tablets. Whit the granuals my bromine levels were too high, with the tablets a bit on the low side. I prefer the tablets and lower bromine readings.
I throw in a tsp of di-chlor every other soak and my water has been crystal clear (so far!). What do you consider "normal" bromine levels?
drprwnap 8)
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drprwnap...I still have cartridges but I'm planning to reuse them when my supply is gone. You're using the tablets...what is your bromine reading?
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I haven't had the opportunity to check all this out....but can you put tablets in first, then add granules to top it off? In theory, the granules would dissolve first anyhow, and by the time they were gone, the tablets should be dissolving enough to keep bromine levels going....right?
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I've tried both- granuals and tablets. Whit the granuals my bromine levels were too high, with the tablets a bit on the low side. I prefer the tablets and lower bromine readings.
I throw in a tsp of di-chlor every other soak and my water has been crystal clear (so far!). What do you consider "normal" bromine levels?
drprwnap 8)
I am not sure what level, because I use the test strips. But each time I tested, the strip showed the lowest color (yellow).
Pehaps my tablets are crap?
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Something is fishy...with the frog and/or the strips. I have the dang frog and my bromine dropped the day before yesterday, so I shocked. Today my bromine, on my strips was >20, glowing! I took a sample to my dealer and the computerized water test indicated that my bromine was low and I needed to add bromine. ??? I asked the service man to check my water with the test strips in the store(the same ones I have) and guess what? >20ppm. He said go with the computerized test and add bromine. I am writing to King....will keep you posted >:(
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so.........the strips are crap.......? As a member of aquarium forum that suggests testing water frequently, I was told to stay away from the strips if at all possible and go for the drops....much more reliable, I was told.....is this true also in this case?
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Boni...what # is the bromine set on? If the bromine was low and you added shock...why shock? I guess I would have raised the # on my cartridge instead of shocking. Whenever you add the shock it raises the bromine reading for about a day maybe two, then it drifts down. I think I would set the bromine low #1 or #2 and add 3oz of shock weekly, then 2-3 days after the shock add 3 tsp of dichlor. If the bromine still gets low then raise the # on the cartridge. I was doing this but because we don't use everyday the bromine reading was high >10. I would try this and see what happens.
Also, have you taken the top off the cartridge to see if there is bromine?
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I just wanted everyone to know that this AM I took a water sample to a Leslie's dealer and my water is "in perfect balance." They STRONGLY suggested that I stay away from the tablets because they are designed to disolve VERY slowly compared to the granuals.
Also, they told me that even if the Frog Spa was opened all the way to 6, the disolve rate would be minimum compared to the suggested level 1 that my spa stipulates.
It was an experiment worth trying, but I'll spend the extra money and stick with the original Spa Frog system.
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Cappy, My bromine was set at 2, like the dealer told me. I tried to turn it down to 1 but ended up with a cloudy tub. I checked my cartridge the other day (when I found all the blue lettering flaked off and floating in the well). It still has bromine. Maybe I don't understand.I thought that if the bromine dropped, you shock to get rid of the organic material and then test later (I waited a day)to see if there is enough residual bromine to sanitize. What has really puzzled me is the drastic readings. My strips either read really high or really low, I never have a
happy medium. Today, it was so strange that the strips read so high >20 ppm for both me and at the dealer's using the strips, but the computer said my bromine was 0.5. what's up with that? Now I am really confused. I think the strips either are very inaccurate, or the bromine in the frog cartridges is a little different than what the strips are meant to test for? I just emailed King to ask that. And T-lady, like you, I test my aquarium water with reagents, no strips.... :( ??? :-/
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drprwnap...I still have cartridges but I'm planning to reuse them when my supply is gone. You're using the tablets...what is your bromine reading?
My reading is about 0.5. I noticed that if i let the strip sit about a minute, the reading goes up. I think it's time to bite the bullet and buy a Taylor Kit. I never liked those stupid strips anyway. :(
drprwnap 8)
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Knock on wood...I'm doing ok but I'm with you--I think it's time to buy a Taylor test kit.
Are you re-using your cartridges with the tablets? I don't know if I want to take the chance after what Snyper said??
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If the cartridge is making your bromine level too high, turn it down. Even on a 0 setting it still lets out bromine into the water. Tablets are not as concentrated as the bromine in the frog cartridge. Your dealer will soon have new longer lasting cartridges for those wishing for a cheaper alternative. Supposedly these new cartridges will retail for 9.95 or 10.95 and will last at least 4 weeks, depending on your settings up to 6 weeks.
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Cappy, I bought a batch of cartridges at my dealer the last trip down and he wanted me to try to be patient and make this work. Shoot, I can't even get it right the way it is designed to work, let alone changing up with tablets. Hideaway, do you have any thoughts about my readings on the strips vs the computer generated tests?
Maybe all of my difficulties are realted to the darn strips, and not the frog after all. ???
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I guess Marquis designed their spa to use granulars for a reason huh? :)
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Bonibelle: Test strips can be inaccurate a lot of times, particularly on the pH reading, they should give you a ball park idea of where the water is at though. The tests the dealer does will be a lot more accurate. How often do you use the tub and do you have it on the factory default filtration settings? Are you shocking once a week with the cover off? You should also check to make sure the ozonator is functioning, the next time you hear the tub kick on by itself on a filtration cycle, open up the front access panel and the ozonator should be glowing purple at one of the ends.
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Thanks Hideaway, I just reset my filtration cycles because it appeared that someone (the kids and I have tried and convicted my hubby) messed them up. They are now locked and no one can accidentally push any buttons to change anything. I will look at my ozone this afternoon when it filters. We use the tub every day (sometimes twice a day). I do shock, but more often than 1X a week. I started with that and realized that I needed to do it more often based on our usage. I bought a whiteboard and put it right under my spa monitor so I keep a daily record of my water testing and what I am doing. I think I need to get a better at home water test kit. The strips must be picking up more than my true bromine levels. :-/
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For what its worth, here's my seven months worth of wisdom. I'm just going to comment using the shotgun approach.
Everybody duck! ;)
On refilling frog bromine cartridges - I've happily been using the same two bromine cartridges, refilling them with bromine tablets I purchased at my dealer and they're working fine.
Snyper - despite what your dealer and Leslie's have told you, the original bromine cartridges did not have granules in them. The cartridges use tablets. I know that because when I opened mine for the first time there were still remnants of tablets in them - not granules. The bromine granules I've seen are used to immediately raise the bromine level so they would not work with the frog system.
Bromine tablets are slow acting and they have been working fine in my Marquis Reward - just like the original. Yes, they dissolve slowly. They are supposed to do that. If they didn't dissolve slowly your spa would be supersaturated with bromine and your cartridge would be empty in a few days. Maybe your strips are bad or the bromine tablets are different than the oriiginal? Check the labels; the ingredients are listed. Or should be.
Hideaway_King - the bromine tablets are exactly the same as what was originally in the cartridge if I can believe the labels on both the cartridge and the tablet container. As I have already stated, the ingredients are listed. I'm glad that King Technologies is finally making a more reasonably priced cartridge but for me, refilling the cartridge is so much easier, cheaper and it lasts just a few days short of a month. I don't see a reason to change.
Testing bromine levels - When I test, if the bromine is a little low, I'll bump the cartridge a couple of notches, e.g., from 2 to 4. If the levels are too high, I lower it back, e.g., from 4 to 2. Please note: I'm not trying to make it change immediately. By the next day, everything is where it should be. And that's fine. Maybe some of you are testing, you find the level too low and then try to raise it immediately? I've found that changes occur overnight or even a couple of days - not immediately.
Here are the two situations when I use the bromine granules: 1) when I refill the spa, just to get some bromine in quickly and 2) when my daughter and her friends are going in and will spend the next couple of hours in there (no kidding) I'll raise the level knowing that with the lid off and the jets going for that amount of time the bromine will evaporate away. Those are the only times I've used the granules.
Test strips and the Taylor kit: I use the strips and they've been OK. I do use the Taylor test kit every couple of weeks but haven't noticed much of a difference except for the PH. PH is hard to read on the strips. I even tried one of those PH meters for awhile but that didn't help either as you have to store the probe in water and readjust it with a special solution. Too much, it's nuts. I do trust the PH values on the Taylor kit.
drprwnap & everyone else: Please reread the instructions on the test strips. Dip the strip in the water, don't shake off excess water, wait 15 seconds and then compare with the chart. I count slowly to 15 just to make sure. The colors do change the longer you wait which will give you inaccurate readings.
Bottom line:
I am learning not to stress out over chemical levels.
I read: threads on this forum, instructions, ingredients lists, etc. And I read it carefully, weighing it against opposing views (nah, not on this site ;D).
When the spa was first delivered back in June, I would test the water once or twice a day. Now, I'm trying to limit myself (yeah, I know, I sound like a junkie) to testing once every couple of days. I'm also learning not to try and fix everything today. Water chemistry takes time and it might take a day or two for things to happen. For instance, first adjust TA, wait a day and then adjust PH if it needs it. Or having to wait for cloudiness to disappear. The list goes on.
:O In the immortal words of Douglas Adams, :O
[size=18]DON'T PANIC!
[/b][/u][/size][/color]
Phil
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Snyper - despite what your dealer and Leslie's have told you, the original bromine cartridges did not have granules in them. The cartridges use tablets. I know that because when I opened mine for the first time there were still remnants of tablets in them - not granules. The bromine granules I've seen are used to immediately raise the bromine level so they would not work with the frog system.
Bromine tablets are slow acting and they have been working fine in my Marquis Reward - just like the original. Yes, they dissolve slowly. They are supposed to do that. If they didn't dissolve slowly your spa would be supersaturated with bromine and your cartridge would be empty in a few days. Maybe your strips are bad or the bromine tablets are different than the oriiginal? Check the labels; the ingredients are listed. Or should be.
Perhaps it is the tablets, I'm not sure. I thought all tablets were the same.
The type/brand I have is:
LESLIE'S BROMINATING TABLETS
1-BROMO-3-CHLORO-5, 5-DIMETHYLHYDANTOIN .... 96%
OTHER INGRENIDIENTS ..... 4%
Here's the link: http://www.lesliespool.com/shopping/product/detailmain.jsp?itemID=8632&itemType=PRODUCT&iProductID=8632
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Great response, NE Phil. I do wait the 15 seconds. I just noticed that the longer the strip sits, the darker the bromine reading. I realize that it is an inaccurate reading. Just something I've noticed. I'm with you on re-filling the cartridges with tablets. I tried granules and had a VERY high reading. I figure a low reading + ozone + a little di-chlor every now and then + weekly shock, should be fine. It's working for me because my water is clear. I have also dialed back on my water testing. I just try to ge to a dealer once a week. If I do that, I don't bother using the test strips.
drprwnap 8)
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The type/brand I have is:
LESLIE'S BROMINATING TABLETS
1-BROMO-3-CHLORO-5, 5-DIMETHYLHYDANTOIN .... 96%
OTHER INGRENIDIENTS ..... 4%
Here's the link: http://www.lesliespool.com/shopping/product/detailmain.jsp?itemID=8632&itemType=PRODUCT&iProductID=8632
Yep, same as mine. I had mentioned it on this thread here. (http://www.whatsthebest-hottub.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=wtb-hottub;action=display;num=1137738020;start=20)[/b] It reads exactly the same on the bromine frog cartridge.
I don't know what to tell you. Maybe someone else has some ideas? If I think of something I'll PM you.
Phil
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Yep, same as mine. I had mentioned it on this thread here. (http://www.whatsthebest-hottub.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=wtb-hottub;action=display;num=1137738020;start=20)[/b] It reads exactly the same on the bromine frog cartridge.
I don't know what to tell you. Maybe someone else has some ideas? If I think of something I'll PM you.
Phil
I guess it is just me :)
BTW - I just cut open a new cartridge (The new ones I bought, the tops are sealed on) and the cartridge is full of chips, about the size of small gravel.
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Moderator's note
Not owning the frog system I haven't been paying much attention to this thread. However I'm been told that King, who I guess is the manufacturer of these devices is not happy with this discussion.
Do I care? Not especially. They are apparently not happy with people modifying their product. The way I see it once you have purchased it is yours to do with as you please. As long as you are not promoting using this product in an unsafe manner and the topic remains hot tub related this thread should continue as the members see fit,
If there is a reason this "tampering" is wrong, or perhaps a safety concern, I would prefer a knowledgable person would inform us so instead of using bullying tactics.
FWIW
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However I'm been told that King, who I guess is the manufacturer of these devices is not happy with this discussion.
They are apparently not happy with people modifying their product.
I wonder why LOL.
If we have people taking a "disposable" product and successfully making it reusable then two thumbs up to them!!!
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...If we have people taking a "disposable" product and successfully making it reusable then two thumbs up to them!!!
Our world is just too disposable...I've always tried to do my best to recycle!!! And if I get to save a few $$$ in the process, so much the better.
It does not make me happy when a company promotes sales by not taking a reusable approach.
Phil
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Moderator's note
Not owning the frog system I haven't been paying much attention to this thread. However I'm been told that King, who I guess is the manufacturer of these devices is not happy with this discussion.
Do I care? Not especially. They are apparently not happy with people modifying their product. The way I see it once you have purchased it is yours to do with as you please. As long as you are not promoting using this product in an unsafe manner and the topic remains hot tub related this thread should continue as the members see fit,
If there is a reason this "tampering" is wrong, or perhaps a safety concern, I would prefer a knowledgable person would inform us so instead of using bullying tactics.
FWIW
Perhasp King, rather than complaining and leaving thier customers confused and frustrated, should address thier concerns and help?
/I'm full of novel ideas.
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Our world is just too disposable...I've always tried to do my best to recycle!!! And if I get to save a few $$$ in the process, so much the better.
It does not make me happy when a company promotes sales by not taking a reusable approach.
Phil
I agree. I grew up in the 60's and 70's and everything was disposable. I see that trend reoccuring with things like the "swiffers" and "toilet wands" I don't know enough about this product, but pehaps King needs to get into the refill business?
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I have a feeling we may hear from them soon...hopefully! I think they should at least recycle the containers and give a break there. Of course my last container would need to be reprinted since all the blue letters are now floating around in my tub!
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The way I see it once you have purchased it is yours to do with as you please.
Exactly. If I purchase a Ford F150 and the battery goes out, does Ford expect me to buy a Motorcraft battery?
Don't think so.
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Thanks Hideaway, I just reset my filtration cycles because it appeared that someone (the kids and I have tried and convicted my hubby) messed them up. They are now locked and no one can accidentally push any buttons to change anything. I will look at my ozone this afternoon when it filters. We use the tub every day (sometimes twice a day). I do shock, but more often than 1X a week. I started with that and realized that I needed to do it more often based on our usage. I bought a whiteboard and put it right under my spa monitor so I keep a daily record of my water testing and what I am doing. I think I need to get a better at home water test kit. The strips must be picking up more than my true bromine levels. :-/
White boards, shocking more than once a week, bromine readings ranging from .5 - 20 ?
It just shouldn't be that hard.
You said you reset your filter cycles. What did you reset them to? How many times and hours per day?
Despite the readings, how does the water look? Is it still cloudy?
i'd tend to belive the dealers test over the strips but that is a huge difference. How long have you been having water issues? When is the last time you did a change out? You are shocking quite a bit, did you get a TDS figure from the dealers test?
This is frustrating to read Bonnie. As I said, it just shouldn't be that hard.
???
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Hey Drew, Your right, I think it is just me, because I don't see others on here having the problems that I do. My tub is beautiful now, this morning the bromine on the stirp (exactly 15 mins) showed a very low level of bromine, so I just put in a new cartridge and I also added water so I also added a tablespoon of shock.
The white board is to help me figure out some sort of pattern. I see chemistry as an exact science where you add so much of this to get so much of that but with the tub you have all sorts of other variables and I tend to overmanage, I guess. ??? Phil, I gave all of my new cartridges a good shake and as far as I can tell, they are filled with grandular bromine. I wonder is King is conducting it's own experiment and some of the cartridges have granulated and others have chips or pucks? Drew, my TDS are fine but I will probably drain and refill this week and hope that I do better this time.
I am going to invest in a Taylor kit too!
Oh and my filtration sysles are set to 2 hours 2X a day and the tub will automatically run a 1 hour filtration cycle after each use.
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...Of course my last container would need to be reprinted since all the blue letters are now floating around in my tub!
So we're seeing that King Technologies also has a problem with quality control, too. ;D
Bonibelle, I would definitely call them and have them replace your cartridges. The lettering on my old cartridges are fine and are slowly wearing away...
Phil
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Bonibelle: The filtration cycles your spa was set on probably caused your high readings and was draining your cartridges abnormally fast. A note on shocking, putting in 1 tablespoon is not going to do much. In the Epic you need to do at least 4 oz. for shock to be effective. Putting a small dose will not create the chemical reaction that oxidizes contaminants out of the water. Put in 5 oz. next time when you shock, leave the cover off and run the jets for 30 mins, you will notice the difference.
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I think we can over manage the water. When I first got our tub I was checking the water almost daily. Now I pretty much check it once a week. I add 3 oz of shock weekly and adjust the bromine cartridge as needed.
I'm sure if we were using the tub daily I might have to adjust my routine and add more shock or add dichlor. When our usage increases I'll adjust.
I knew when we started discussing reusing the cartridges that the mfg would soon hear about it. Interesting how that has happened. I'm in agreement with all the rest. I had a moment of hesitation after reading Snyper's comment, but I'm not going to continue to replace them at $12.95 - $13.95 a pop.
The comforting thing is to know I have this forum to help me when I encounter problems. I haven't called my dealer for any help because I get it all right here.
Oh...my cartridges all have the very tiny chips.