Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: justmeandu on February 20, 2006, 10:13:51 am
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i"m looking at buying a salt water tub from cal spas has anyone heard of any bad things about this system the warranty is good and the store has been around for a long time maybe i'm just worried about systems that are different :-/
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Just .... I'm curious.. Why are you considering salt water? Is there an added health benefit or something?
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check out the "beating a dead horse" section, or do a search on calspa............then go from there.
as far as the salt water system........i was unaware they had 1. looks like i need to do some homework :-/ ;D
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I was also interested in switching to a salt water system, and was quickly "shot down" ;D...something about corrsion problems. My research had shown it to be a nice setup (minimal salt is required for the chlorine conversion), and I'm very interested in further info from those here. Supposedly about 80% of new pools sold in the U.S. have salt water systems...
Steve
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steve
its true that alot of pools are using the salt water systems (yes, we build pools too) however; we are not fans of this. from what i have heard, the delivery system needs vast improvement (some still require you to pour salt into the skimmer.....150-200lbs of it.....slowly so it doesnt clog). also, there is the potential (however small) for the salt water to kill any plants/trees around the pool, such as a "tropical" design.
i am not "the pool man" here, just passing on some things i have heard. if i am wrong about any of what i said, please feel free to correct me.
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Pool systems require 2500-3000 ppm salt from what I've read; the ocean averages 35000 ppm...you can't taste the salt in a properly operated salt water pool, supposedly...not sure what effect 3000 ppm salt water would have on plants...
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i have had my fill of ocean water lol.....too many days out surfing and cliff jumping. :o nothing like getting a big mouthfull of that stuff!!!!!!!! :-X
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I can HARDLY WAIT!! I'm heading to Monterey again this July for the MotoGP races...it was a blast last year, and I'm sure it'll be even better this year, now that we know our way around. Think I'll pass on the surfing, though, and focus on the scenery ;)...sorry for the diversion from topic...
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motoGP huh? sounds like a blast. i went to a CART race in ohio a few years ago. man those thing were hauling!!! also went to a nascar tyruck event, short track. that was a blast too.
only thing missing was a hot tub ;)
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Salt is the way to go. Do not use a chorine system but and bromine system(sodium bromide). Will reduce greatly the buildup of crap the it is used in pucks(Binders so it will reduce the time between drainings.Best of all you will never touch a 5.1 oxidizer again.
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Huh?
Salt is the way to go. Do not use a chorine system but and bromine system(sodium bromide). Will reduce greatly the buildup of crap the it is used in pucks(Binders so it will reduce the time between drainings.Best of all you will never touch a 5.1 oxidizer again.
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Yes
Ditto
Huh?
What the h*** are you saying newbie
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I must be missing something here. Isn't a salt water system a chlorine system? You're converting the salt to chlorine and don't really have "salt water" in your pool (or spa).
I have also heard of severe corrosion problems with salt water systems on spas.
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So let me see if I understand the gist of this thread.
Salt is a sanitizer? ???
Phil
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No, salt isn't a sanitizer, but it is made up of sodium and chlorine. I am by no means an expert, but as I understand it there is a supply of salt which is broken into its constituent components by the equipment in a salt water system, one of which is chlorine, which is a sanitizer.
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Sodium Chloride(salt) can be made into chlorine thru electrolisis.)Soldium Bromide can produce bromine. You do not want to use chlorine in a spa. It off gasses at 98 degrees and smells bad if you do not shock(offgas your spa)regulary. Salt will not corode a spa. LowPh ,low alkalinity and low calcium hardness will. Keep the water balanced at all times no mater what you use.
Most people do not know enough on sanitizer generating to give advice on it.
Consumers do the research. Dealers , learn before you give advice
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some of us get SO much information (information overload, anyone?) that some of it gets muddled up....it's a simple mistake for anyone to make, IDW..and I'm sure I'm guilty as much as, if not more than, the next person.
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I have a salt water pool, so I have first hand experience.
The salt is added at the beginning of the pool season, along with some chlorine shock to get the levels up. The salt chlorine generator converts the salt to chlorine throughout the season. This results in very low chemical maintenance. Once the system is running at proper levels, you don't have to add anything for the entire season.
The water does have a slight salty taste at the proper ppm... almost undetectable.
The water has a much softer feel on the skin, and is much less harsh. Because the chlorine is constantly regenerated, it can be maintained at a significantly lower level and still be effective.
Not sure about how this translates to a hot tub.
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Sodium Chloride(salt) can be made into chlorine thru electrolisis.)Soldium Bromide can produce bromine. You do not want to use chlorine in a spa. It off gasses at 98 degrees and smells bad if you do not shock(offgas your spa)regulary. Salt will not corode a spa. LowPh ,low alkalinity and low calcium hardness will. Keep the water balanced at all times no mater what you use.
Most people do not know enough on sanitizer generating to give advice on it.
Consumers do the research. Dealers , learn before you give advice
I don't understand "do not use chlorine in a spa". Chlorine is just fine in a spa. On top of that, you are advocating using a salt generator to produce chlorine in a spa. Dichlor is pH neutral, you only have to add a little after use so no large concentrations of chemicals in the water and when you soak you do so in practically chem free sanitized water, no highly acidic properties such as in bromine that consistantly draw pH down and can do damage to components.
Chlorine has some highly desirable characteristics that make it perfect for a spa. Not realizing this hurts your credibility. Most techs I have personally asked and those on the boards use dichlor to sanitize.
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Sodium bromide produces BROMINE. Use a bromine generator on a spa The chemical characteristics of chlorine are not favourable at temps over 98. It offgasses.You soak in practically chem free water because most the chlorine offgassed. If you insist in using chlorine which is OK use lithimum chlorine it is unstabilized. Diclor is stabalized and there is no need for it in a spa. Remember chlorine does not work very well at a high ph and becomes very aggresive at a low ph. Bromine does neither. It works well in all ph ranges. If you use chlorine you must be very good at balancing water. Most people are not. I very rarly see a spa with a low ph unless the water is low on alkalinity whether the person uses bromine or chlorine. Airating water increses ph so using your spa will counteract any ph flucuation caused by bromine. At least i know the water is sanitized propery even if the ph is high By the way it is not a salt generator, it is a either a chlorine gererator or a bromine generator
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Sodium bromide produces BROMINE. Use a bromine generator on a spa The chemical characteristics of chlorine are not favourable at temps over 98. It offgasses.You soak in practically chem free water because most the chlorine offgassed. If you insist in using chlorine which is OK use lithimum chlorine it is unstabilized. Diclor is stabalized and there is no need for it in a spa. Remember chlorine does not work very well at a high ph and becomes very aggresive at a low ph. Bromine does neither. It works well in all ph ranges. If you use chlorine you must be very good at balancing water. Most people are not. I very rarly see a spa with a low ph unless the water is low on alkalinity whether the person uses bromine or chlorine. Airating water increses ph so using your spa will counteract any ph flucuation caused by bromine. At least i know the water is sanitized propery even if the ph is high By the way it is not a salt generator, it is a either a chlorine gererator or a bromine generator
I am sorry, but I completely disagree. See my post at High Alk but good pH.
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Its okay if you do not agree but science is science
Comparison of Bromine Vs Chlorine Is it worth it so you do not add 15 cents week to ajust your ph
Bromine Chlorine
Effective Disinfectant Form
Hypobromous Acid (HOBr) Hypochlorous Acid
Reaction with Ammonia: Reacts to form Bromamines does not affect disinfectionReacts to form Chloramines andreduces disinfection ability
Bromamines or Chloramines as Bactericides
Bromamines are excellent bactericides and exhibit activity similar to HOBr. Chloramines are poor bactericides and have only 5% of activity of HOCl.
Bromamines or Chloramines as Viricides
Bromamines are excellent and exhibit activity similar to HOBr. Chloramines are not effective viricides.
Bromine is an effective disinfectant in the presence of NH3. Low levels of NH3 are therefore acceptable. It is necessary to improve Chlorine effectiveness as a disinfectant by eliminating Chloramines.
Disinfection pH dependence Bromine has no significant pH dependence in the range 7-8 pH. Bromine produces a significant reduction in eye irritation. Chlorine disinfection can produce eye irritation from the formation of Chloramines.
Halogen Odours
Bromine has noticeably less halogen odour than pools comparably treated with Chlorine. Most "Chlorine" odours result from chloramines which arise from heavy bather load or improper maintenance.
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Bromine is a very effective sanitizer. I completely agree there. But chlorine is just as effective. A well maintained chlorine spa should have no odors, off gassing should be no problem and chloromines should be no issue. As a matter of fact, one of the common complaints with bromine is the fact that it has an odor and doesn't necessarily come off.
I agree science is science.
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IDW, this could have saved you some typing...
http://www.tps.com.au/pools/clbrcomp.htm
;)
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Thanks ssbraun.
Every negative aspect of chlorine use revolves around the formation of chloromines. Shocking eliminates chloromines. When the combined chlorine level reaches .2ppm it is time to shock. Simple, easy maintenance is all it takes.
Most commercial pools and spas are sanitized with chlorine. I don't think that is by mistake.
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I agree that chorine is an efective sanitizer, of coarse it is, but it is used because it is cheaper. Bromine is a better product all round. The only reason we do not use it in pools is becuase it can not be stabilized. I bet most spa owners do not even know what combined chorine is or how important is to shock or how ineffective chlorine is at high ph. It is very easy to loose the chemistry in a spa so it is more important to give people a sanitizer that works in all enviorments rather than one that needs a degree in chemistry to understand.
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I agree that chorine is an efective sanitizer, of coarse it is, but it is used because it is cheaper. Bromine is a better product all round. The only reason we do not use it in pools is becuase it can not be stabilized. I bet most spa owners do not even know what combined chorine is or how important is to shock or how ineffective chlorine is at high ph. It is very easy to loose the chemistry in a spa so it is more important to give people a sanitizer that works in all enviorments rather than one that needs a degree in chemistry to understand.
I think you vastly underestimate the intelligence of most spa owners. I also believe that you should qualify many of what you say are facts to be what they really are and that is your OPINION.
And if you really want a "no brain" sanitizer, forget bromine and go to biguanides, IMO.
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I agree that chorine is an efective sanitizer, of coarse it is, but it is used because it is cheaper. Bromine is a better product all round. The only reason we do not use it in pools is becuase it can not be stabilized. I bet most spa owners do not even know what combined chorine is or how important is to shock or how ineffective chlorine is at high ph. It is very easy to loose the chemistry in a spa so it is more important to give people a sanitizer that works in all enviorments rather than one that needs a degree in chemistry to understand.
I bet theymost certainly do understand.
Small nit; Chlorine in pool and spas. Trichlor is used in pools, Dichlor is used in spas. Both are chlorine, but there is a difference. Using "Chlorine" and talking about pools and spas is misleading.
Bromine isn't effective in lower temps and not suitable for pool use.
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I bet theymost certainly do understand.
Small nit; Chlorine in pool and spas. Trichlor is used in pools, Dichlor is used in spas. Both are chlorine, but there is a difference. Using "Chlorine" and talking about pools and spas is misleading.
Bromine isn't effective in lower temps and not suitable for pool use.
Bromine can be used in a pool. It is not quite as popular, but certainly an option.
You can also use dichlor in a pool. The expense of it makes it a less common option. Both trichlor and dichlor are stabilized chlorine. Trichlor is not a good option for spas because of its low pH. Most spa companies (but not all) disallow the use of trichlor.
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Bromine can be used in a pool. It is not quite as popular, but certainly an option.
You can also use dichlor in a pool. The expense of it makes it a less common option. Both trichlor and dichlor are stabilized chlorine. Trichlor is not a good option for spas because of its low pH. Most spa companies (but not all) disallow the use of trichlor.
It's my understanding that Trichlor doens't work too well at high temps, not necessarly the ph factor. (?)
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Trichlor will work fine at high temps. a few spa companies (Emerald for one) actually advocates the use of trichlor in a floater. For most manufacturers, the highly acidic properties and the fact that if a puck or stick fell into the water onto the acrylic, it could cause damage to the spa.
Most spa companies do not allow the use of liquid chlorine or bleach for the same type of reason...high pH rather than low and the issue of spilling some on the spa could cause damage.
From what I understand, chlorine does the same thing at 104 and it does at 80. The water temp does not lessen or increase its effectiveness. There are different characteristics of the different types of chlorine that make some types better for large bodies of water such as pools and others better for small bodies of water such as spas.
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I wont get into the debate of chlorine vs bromine.
I will share what I know about sodium chloride and sodium bromide and their advantages over powdered, liquid and puck sanitizers.
Some of the benefits of a salt based sanitizing system include:
1. Less time balancing water.
Pucks have a pH of 3-4 and tend to lower pH and TA. Many here say pucks are not recommended in spas, others disagree.
Powdered sanitizers also affect pH. Dichlor has a pH of 6-7 depending on the manufacturer. This is still lower that the 7.5 or 7.2-7.8 goal. Lithchlor has a pH around 11.
Liquid is not recommended buy anyone for spas, it has a pH around 13.
Salt generators create a pH neutral sanitizer.
2. Change your water less. Chlorine and bromine in their purest forms are not safe to handle or package for sale in a retail environment. Cl/Br are combined with other ingredients to make them safer to handle and package and give them a shelf life. These other ingredients end up in your spa. They add to TDS thereby forcing you to change your water more often than with a salt system. You will also add less balancer's, which are needed more with conventional sanitizers. Whats more, some of these "extra" ingredients are the cause of cloudiness and result in the need for clarifiers and other conditioning products.
3. Softer, silkier water. Salt is used in rural areas to "soften water". Removing all of the byproduct ingredients from conventional sanitizers will also result in less skin irritation.
4. Oxidizing. Shocking is not needed as often with a salt system. This is because some of the chloramines and bromamines will be eliminated when they pass through the cell that pass electrical current through the salt water to create sanitizer.
As far a corrosion, a manufacturer introducing something like this might consider a titanium heater rather than an incoloy heater as this would be the most likely site for any corrosion from the salt.
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i"m looking at buying a salt water tub from cal spas has anyone heard of any bad things about this system the warranty is good and the store has been around for a long time maybe i'm just worried about systems that are different :-/
Just curious, was the tub a Cal Spa or was the store called California Spa & Fitness?
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Its okay if you do not agree but science is science
Aside from being able to recite Chlorine vs Bromine chemistry, what is your background or experience that leads to to speak with such authority, and to generalize about how little most people know about their spas? I'm not trying to rudely challenge you, but you should either make it clear how you come to such uncompromizing conclusions, or as Tony said, qualify such statements as opinions.