Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: stuart on February 03, 2006, 03:57:35 pm
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Here is a picture of an accident in our shop. One employee (who is no longer employed here) put the spa on blocks to fix several leaks. Another (who is on probation) filled the spa to test and did not check the blocks.
We now have a customer with new spa at my expense! This is what can happen any moment when procedures are not followed. I can fire all of the employees in the store and it won't change the costs associated with this stupidity.
Oh the joys of business ownership! BTW for the techno/info geeks, there was a wood framed 10 year old Marquis blocked the same way (you can see it in the background of the picture) that was also filled with water and did not bend or break the frame (thank goodness)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/spaguy/buttonspadamage.jpg)
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ugh!
Did a block slip, or were there not enough blocks to support the weight of the water filled tub?
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Sorry to see that happen to you!
I guess the fact (or maybe the fact) that wooden tubs can handle the weight where metal ones can't as you stated is a REAL learning experience for spa dealers and techs. Is the practice of putting a spa on blocks something that's common in troubleshooting leaks?
Doesn't business insurance cover accidents?
As I was thinking about it ... I would contact your insurance company. When I had my lumber delivered for the deck, they lost the load and destroyed my garage door. The insurance company paid for my 2 garage doors since they couldn't match the one that was there. Hopefully your insurance would contribute so that you don't bear the full brunt of the tub.
Just a thought!
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Wow Stuart! What a bummer. You didn't mention it, but I sure hope nobody was hurt in this experience! We 'block' up spas by setting them on three or four wooden beams which span the entire width of the tub, and only get it up in the air about 5 inches. If we need to get it up higher than that we forklift it onto our faithful Spa Dolly trailer, prop a heavy duty automotive-style jack-stand under each corner of the trailer, and we leave it attached to the back of a truck if we can, just to be sure! That has never given us a problem in many years.
I walked into the Beachcomber distribution center in Vista a few years ago, and they had a spa up on some heavy wooden racks - but the thing was four feet in the air! They said they have done it that way for a long time, and the beams where of massive proportions, but I still like keeping these things more 'down to earth' when filled.
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Stuart, Sorry for the mishap. I have ALWAYS said when people want to shim or raise the spa to level it, the footwell is always going to want to be in contact with the floor.
Vinny has a point though, while stupidity is not covered by insurance, maybe they would view it as an accident. Wait a minute, hold the phone just a minute, couldn't this be covered under the warranty? ;) Sorry about the humor at a time like this, but employees, what can I say. You have to give them specific instructions that they won't listen to or follow, and then you have to constantly be aware of what and how they are doing things, or else you pay for their education through learning experiences.
And everyone is worried about the cost of service. Not only do dealers have to pay outrageous freight bills with fuel surcharges, but we have to absorb the losses incurred in providing service. I am sure that some will say, "that's the cost of doing business", lucky us.
Well Stuart, look at it this way, the new tub won't leak, so the leaks are fixed. Calculate what the charges would have been for the needed repairs, add to that $xxxx for the cost of the new warranty being provided on the new tub that you are paying for, and the customer wins. Considering the new tub will have a warranty and the repaired tub would go back to the customer for the cost of repairs, but without a "new tub warranty".
While I am sure you guarantee your repairs, the repaired tub would go back to the customer without leaks, but without a "new tub warranty". The custumer wins, the repaired tub is now a new tub for the cost of repairs, plus the cost of a new warranty, he is ahead and you cut your losses.
If he dosen't want to pay for the "new Warranty", that's fine too. His old tub would come back to him without a warranty, and this one can too. Just because it is new at your expense and he gets the benefits of a new tub, it dosen't necessarily mean that he is entitled to a "new tub warranty" without paying for it.
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Perhaps there is some god news............was this one of the covers you never finished ordering?
"Cost of doing business"..translation: additional costs passed onto the consummer that isn't itemized on their bill ::)
Remember Stuart, if it weren't for "mindless" (a well chosen word ;) ) employees, we'd have a lot more competitors out there.
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Perhaps there is some god news............
"Cost of doing business"..translation: additional costs passed onto the consummer that isn't itemized on their bill ::)
In spite of the almighty announcement that precedes this statement, it is ambiguous and inaccurate. You make it seem like the consumer is being overcharged, or even unwittingly being taken advantage of.
What might be considered “the cost of doing business” is not a line item to be added or charged to the consumer on a sales slip. It is a “cost” that comes out of profit previously earned. Profit comes from what a customer willingly chooses to pay for what he receives. It is what we call “fair trade”. This of course is true in all business, even your own. One must profit in order to afford other cost or expenses unrelated to the sale, costs that you incur in business as well, I am sure.
As we are all customers, we all knowingly understand and do expect a sale to generate a profit that will afford the “costs” related to doing business. Keeping those “cost” items low, or non existent, is what increases our potential for profit, which is again what, we are in business or employeed to “earn”. That is of course not withstanding that you are a non-profit organization.
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It's called "overhead". Those cost associated with doing business. It includes such mistakes. Keep you overhead low and you can increase profit margins.
Yup,It's all part of owning a business, but so are the profits and growth. Maybe you could use the spa for spare parts for the hot tub you keep on one of your yachts? Or maybe the hot tub you have in you Itialian villa might need some new pumps? I am sure you don't have to trash the whole thing. :)
Why would you fire an employee after he just received a $4000 education on how to properly support a spa?
::)
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I'm going to claim it on insurance, buy it back, use it as a repair training spa and charge other dealers a day training charge to learn acrylic repair, repair it and sell it with a 90 day in-house warranty for what this mess is costing me.
I will also give the customer a new one that I have in stock, charge them $300 for the warranty upgrade and charge MAAX for the original pick up and repair of the old spa in addition to the delivery of the new one (they would have to pay that anyway).
Then I'm going to sail my Yacht to my Villa and study the physics of weight distribution....
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It's called "overhead". Those cost associated with doing business. It includes such mistakes......Yup,It's all part of owning a business, but so are the profits and growth......Why would you fire an employee after he just received a $4000 education on how to properly support a spa? ::)
Overhead is a predictible cost related to doing business such as rent, insurance, taxes, utilities, wages and benefits like yours for instance. You are a predictable overhead cost to your employeer.
Overhead costs can be anticipated and measured, and are thus predictable. Accidents or mistakes like this are unusual, unexpected and not predictable to be included in forcasting for profit or loss operations. As they are unfortunate, they are unpredictable.
Your estimated cost of the employee's education is far greater than you estimate it to be. I can see where your perception comes from about the yacht's and the villa's. Most people think anyone that owns a business is "rich".
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Bubba stu......
Wow, what a bummer. I guess you had a couple of "blockheads" on that one......and where's a flimsy panel when you need one? ;D
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Overhead is a predictible cost related to doing business such as rent, insurance, taxes, utilities, wages and benefits like yours for instance. You are a predictable overhead cost to your employeer.
Overhead costs can be anticipated and measured, and are thus predictable. Accidents or mistakes like this are unusual, unexpected and not predictable to be included in forcasting for profit or loss operations. As they are unfortunate, they are unpredictable.
Your estimated cost of the employee's education is far greater than you estimate it to be. I can see where your perception comes from about the yacht's and the villa's. Most people think anyone that owns a business is "rich".
Such mishaps are part of running any business. As a small business owner, you'd be wise to make allowences for such problems.
My sacarcasim on yachts and villa's obviolsly missed its mark. Ask your chauffer to explain it to you. :)
Anyhow, my remark on the cost of the mistake as an education (regardless if I had the actual price correct) was more there to share the anecdotial wisdom of Henry Ford:
"A yong engineer, started work at Henry Fords production line in Michigan and made a small, but costly mis-calculation in figuring prodution runs. The result was that a bearing part needed to be replaced on every car made in the past week at a cost of $12 a peice. There were 1,000 cars made that week.
The young engineer taking resposibility for his mistakes went into Mr Fords' office and inquired "I assume sir, you will want my resignation?"
Mr Ford looked up at at the young, nervous engineer and balked "Resignation? I just spent $12,000.00 educationing you. Get back to work!"
I'm sorry if I confused you.
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Just a quick perspective from the engineering side of things. As you can see from looking at the picture, there is no vertical support between the corner post (where the cinder block is) and the next vertical column. Since the spa was designed to sit flat, the load put on the small channel running across the bottom was easily overcome once water was put into the spa and the center became much heavier.
The lesson is that just putting blocks under the corners is not the way to distribute loads to something that is designed to have full load distribution across the bottom. In some spas with wood frames it may have reacted differently due to the size of the wood framing, however, the engineering principle still holds true.
Lesson learned for the dealers is to avoid supporting a spa in this manner or end up having one look like this.
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cool! It's got a new lounge seat! ;D
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Oh that sucks my friend. :-/
The worst we had was a tub fall off the back of a half tonne. It faired better than yours though. Can't you put a big A$$ speaker in that corner and get Doc to make you up a custom cover? ;D
I believe the "cost of doing business" comment was made lightly and with humor. That's how I took it anyway... ::) I mean...look who posted it! ;)
Steve
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Overhead costs can be anticipated and measured, and are thus predictable. Accidents or mistakes like this are unusual, unexpected and not predictable to be included in forcasting for profit or loss operations. As they are unfortunate, they are unpredictable.
I agree accidents are unpredictable, unexpected and unfortunate, but they are inevitable. They may be as simple as a spilled container of dichlor that cost 50.00 to a accident in a company vehicle to a delivery error that damages a lawn or shrub to a complete broken spa shell ect. ect. If you dont plan for human factor in any business you are fooling yourself. Management needs to teach employees as much as possible but accidents will happen, thats why they are called accidents. Dictionary states a accident is: (a chance happening, an event that happens completely by chance, with no planning or deliberate intent). Dont kid yourself in your financial planning that accidents are not going to happen. All hopes are that they are kept to a minimum and no personal injury is involved. There is no guarantee of that either. Education is the best way minimize these unforseen events.
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I agree accidents are unpredictable, unexpected and unfortunate, but they are inevitable.
'Tis so true. We lost Teencie, one of our original Hydrotherapy Technicians, to negligence....
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/Picture503.jpg)
RIP Teencie, RIP....
Terminator
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'Tis so true. We lost Teencie, one of our original Hydrotherapy Technicians, to negligence....
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/Picture503.jpg)
RIP Teencie, RIP....
Terminator
It was ment to look like an accident.
Watch your back, Hannah.
Sincerely,
The Secret Order to Re-instate Tammy 8)
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Oh how I feel for you full foam lovers.
Of course, this wouldn't have even been an issue with a thermo paned spa.
(starting the brush fire)
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Oh how I feel for you full foam lovers.
Of course, this wouldn't have even been an issue with a thermo paned spa.
(starting the brush fire)
Stuart,
What brand of spa was that?
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I believe he said it was made by MAAX.
That's funny cuz I didn't realize MAAX was making any FF spas. Is that one of those Elite spas?
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I believe he said it was made by MAAX.
That's funny cuz I didn't realize MAAX was making any FF spas. Is that one of those Elite spas?
The broken spa in the picture is not a full-foamed spa. It is a partially foamed spa, at best.
Terminator
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I believe he said it was made by MAAX.
That's funny cuz I didn't realize MAAX was making any FF spas. Is that one of those Elite spas?
MAAX does not make any FF spas.
Take another look.
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I agree accidents are unpredictable, unexpected and unfortunate, but they are inevitable. They may be as simple as a spilled container of dichlor that cost 50.00 to a accident in a company vehicle to a delivery error that damages a lawn or shrub to a complete broken spa shell ect. ect. If you dont plan for human factor in any business you are fooling yourself. Management needs to teach employees as much as possible but accidents will happen, thats why they are called accidents. Dictionary states a accident is: (a chance happening, an event that happens completely by chance, with no planning or deliberate intent). Dont kid yourself in your financial planning that accidents are not going to happen. All hopes are that they are kept to a minimum and no personal injury is involved. There is no guarantee of that either. Education is the best way minimize these unforseen events.
Accidents by definition are insurable events and a business should have adequate coverage to cover such losses. Premiums of insurance are predictable and are in the budget. I believe Staurt indicates that this is an insurable event.
Accidents will happen, they are unpredictable and they are accounted for by the defintion so stated, and thus are insurable losses.
All of the events you state are insurable losses with the exception of the spilled chlorine, that is an unfortunate, bungling event that would clearly cause exposure to additional and substantial liability that would be covered as an insurable loss.
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Sigh.
No offense J_McD taken.
anyhow, I was busting your chops because you started to whine abot fuel surcharges, as if you are the only business to be affected by it.
I think it's this narrow scope of thougt that cause our confusion.
I could not have said it more effectivly.
As for the car, we now live in a global economy and cars were first created by American inventors, then developed by American business's, then copied by foriegn companies, who until mandates were put in place drained the American economy. While our global partners now produce jobs for the American workers because they must, the resulting profits leave our shores and do not support our way of life. This sometimes includes the freedom that you and I enjoy, of which some may even take for granted that freedom.
Now, let's talk about Hot tubs, currently an American concept spreading around the world.
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Stuart wrote:
"I will also give the customer a new one that I have in stock, charge them $300 for the warranty upgrade and charge MAAX for the original pick up and repair of the old spa in addition to the delivery of the new one (they would have to pay that anyway). "
I took another look and pasted what Stuart wrote right here. Looks like he's saying the spa is a MAAX product.
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Stuart wrote:
"I will also give the customer a new one that I have in stock, charge them $300 for the warranty upgrade and charge MAAX for the original pick up and repair of the old spa in addition to the delivery of the new one (they would have to pay that anyway). "
I took another look and pasted what Stuart wrote right here. Looks like he's saying the spa is a MAAX product.
He is. But what dont seem to understand is that the tub in the picture is not full foam.
Obviously you have not seen behind the wall of a full foam spa.
Elite Spas by MAAX do have foam sprayed onto the shell and insulation. This is not full foam.
Full foam would be a tub that has foamed filling every inch between the shell and cabinet except where the equipment (pumps, control, ozonator etc) is located.
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Full foam would be a tub that has foamed filling every inch between the shell and cabinet except where the equipment (pumps, control, ozonator etc) is located.
It probably wouldn't have leaked if it was full foam! ;) ;D
(fanning the brush fire)
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It probably wouldn't have leaked if it was full foam! ;) ;D
(fanning the brush fire)
It depends on if the foam is used for insulating or structural! :)
I see smoke.
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I'm just wondering how many of the dealers out there routinely bring spas back to the shop to make repairs rather than repair them on site? We have always made the repairs on site. It would seem to me that taking the spa back and then re-delivering it after the repair would be much more costly than repairng on site. Please educate me If I'm am way off base. :)
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Some spas may require replumbing if it had bad glue or leaks that you didn't know wher they were coming from. While none of us want to go through the extra effort to remove the electric and move the spa to get it up on edge, you have to do that anyway, you might just as well put it on a trailer and get it back to the shop. This way it can be filled, monitored, and the leaks discovered maybe working on it 1 hour a day until you get the leaks identified.
Sometime it can be dug out as time is available while attending to all of the other needs of the day, talking to customers, talking on the phone, running out to check something else, etc.
Imagine having 2 guys tied up for 2 days doing the same job in someones back yard.
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so is that your regular procedure? or only in rare situations such as a case of bad glue? I understand what your saying about having two guys tied up for two days but... removing the spa and bringing it back to the shop and then having to bring it back even if you can work on it an hour at a time while tending to other duties, do you save that much money by taking it back for repair ? I guess some of it depends on how far the spa is from your shop or if it was craned in. does the Manufacturer you retail for pay you to bring it back and then reinstall it? I'm just wondering because in all the years I have worked for my company we have never taken a spa back to the shop for repair.
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No the Mfg does not compensate us for such an unusual event. There are several factors that are involved. The setting in and around the spa, can we get access? Can the spa go on edge? The process is going to be involved with digging out the foam, do we want the customer see his spa looking like a turkey the day after Thanksgiving. The customer wants to watch, when they do they want to talk, when the do the guys courteously respond with conversations, it takes longer, mistakes are made and things are missed, and we have to go back.
All around, its about the customer and getting his problem taken care of in the shortest most efficient time, especially if he is a distance from the store. Plus, we have the use of the hi-lo and can wet test our work. Have you every spent 2 days working on such a project just to get a call 5 days later to hear the customer complain, sometime with great anger, that it still leaks. What a great way to start your day, eh.
This problem shouldn't occur in the first place and it is not the dealers fault, but the manufacturer probably wants to disavow any responsibility because the didn't make the glue. If it is in warranty, that's one thing, but if it is out of warranty, they are going to be angy with us. We will probably offer the customer a very good trade value to upgrade them to a new unit with a new warranty with new updated features. 1/3 of them will go this route at our loss, 1/3 will want it repaird and we charge them a minimal charge, 1/3 will hate you and and blame you for selling it to them.
Although the customer is looking at some sort of expense, it becomes the choice of spending the money on the repairs or replacement. This is not about a profit making sale. This is about a customers unfortunate dilema of buying a product from US that failed. When you have worked with close to 900 of these unhappy customers over 5 years on specific production in certain years, you try to cut your losses, please the customer, get a unit count for production and try to make everybody satisfied, usually at the dealers expense.
And then, the new shopper comes in and wants a cheaper price. What can I tell you. They think all dealers are the same, and all products are similarly the same as well.
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As for the car, we now live in a global economy and cars were first created by American inventors, then developed by American business's, then copied by foriegn companies, who until mandates were put in place drained the American economy.
Now, let's talk about Hot tubs, currently an American concept spreading around the world.
Actually, Americans did not create the first cars. It was the Germans. Nicholas Otto invented the first practical piston internal combustion engine. Nicholas’s employee: Gottlieb Daimler is credited with building the first practical four wheeled automobile. (there is some dispute over if it was Daimler or Otto who invented the first motorcycle.)
Daimler later went on to found Mercedes and the rest is history. I am confident that all the hot tub dealers are intimately familiar with Mercedes? (Jokeing J_McD...joke)
;)
But I digress…
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I believe you are right, it was Ford who was credited with production manufacturing. ;D
Buy American when you can. We are our own worst enemy. ;)
American manufacturers just need to make better products that are more desireable, meet the demands of the consumer and are meet their needs, fuel economy is big issue at $3.00 a gallon and this is cheap on a global scale.
Buy a Jaguar instead, they are owned by Ford. ;)
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Buy American when you can. We are our own worst enemy. ;)
I have 3 GM autos in my driveway ('98, '02 and '03). They've all been great so far as was the 12 yr old Pontiac that I just got rid of last year. Made in the US by US owned companies. The cars that are made in the US but have their profits going overseas are certainly well made cars and better for us than buying foreign made products but I feel better going the full route and doing my small part.
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It would seem to me that taking the spa back and then re-delivering it after the repair would be much more costly than repairng on site. Please educate me If I'm am way off base. :)
You're way off base.
Actually, in some cases it's much cheaper to pick it up and do the repair in the shop. In other cases it's a matter of being able to (safely) do an overnight water test with the spa up on blocks.
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OK, maybe just a little off base.
;)
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Thank you chas For the semi retraction. I am just new to taking a spa back to the shop, maybe we have just been lucky. I've have never had to re plumb an entire spa or had such a catastrophic failure that we have had to remove the spa for repair. I know, I know I probably haven't been in the business long enough right? In all the years I have been doing spa repair we have done it on-site. thanks for the input.
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We have had several air injector leaks on these spas due to nothing more than not leaving any slack in the hose from the manifold to the jet and as the tubing hardens, shrinks and pulls against the jet.
Because you usually need to change a manifold in these situations we have found that it's easier and better for the customer to pick the spa up.
MAAX so far has been pretty good about paying all pick-up and re-delivery costs.
BTW,
In my opinion anytime you can pick the spa up on a major plumbing job your better off doing that. It not only gives you a better opportunity to do the repair right. Your customer does not go through the trauma of seeing their spa disemboweled and then setting on blocks. At times it's cheaper than making 3 or 4 trips to check for leaks.
Think of how you would react to a mechanic coming over to your house and tearing your car apart in your driveway as opposed to taking into the shop.
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Think of how you would react to a mechanic coming over to your house and tearing your car apart in your driveway as opposed to taking into the shop.
That says it all.
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I have 3 GM autos in my driveway ('98, '02 and '03). Made in the US by US owned companies.
Don't be so sure unless you've checked. Many GM cars and especially trucks are mfg. in Canada and Mexico. Lest we forget the Japanese and European cars they rebadge as a domestic brand to dupe the unsuspecting consumer.
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Don't be so sure unless you've checked. Many GM cars and especially trucks are mfg. in Canada and Mexico. Lest we forget the Japanese and European cars they rebadge as a domestic brand to dupe the unsuspecting consumer.
All the same with Canada as far as I'm concerned. I'm sure some parts are made in Mexico as well but like Canada, if you go there you see a ton of american made cars and it's more of a North American thing in reality.
I know the company that owns it and profits (oops, forgot I got a GM, "should profit") is sitting within our boundries and that means a thing or two to me. Having said that, I don't gernally get on my soapbox to those around me that they should do the same. I do that because I feel better for doing so. to each his own.
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....and now for the final outcome!
Customer is moving and wants to use the spa as a negotiation tool in the house sale but can't transfer the warranty. We agreed to give her a new model that is less expensive (by far) and warranty it to the new home owner. We also claimed the spa on insurance at the price the customer paid for the original spa but took a hit on the $1000 deductible.
Here is the clincher, we then gave the customer a $1000 in-store credit on a new spa at regular showroom price when they move insuring they buy from us again in the near future.
MAAX will pay for the pickup, repair and delivery for the damaged spa.
As long as my insurance doesn't go up everyone is happy (except the guy I fired)!
Oh BTW, we also kept the old spa for $500 and will be able to do a major training repairing it and sell it for a profit.
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after looking at the picture it looks to me ( and I am NOT an engineer, just a VERY HIGHLY intelligent Homemaker/ Marketing extraordinaire) that this spa was not supported correctly.
I totally agree with nitlion15.
also not to be mean but what kind of stupid idiots were hired to work for you????????????????????
OKAY NOW I AM GOING TO BE PREACHY HERE TO EVERYBODY-------------- GIVE THE BOSS WAY MORE THAN HE HAS PAID YOU FOR. WHY??????PRETEND GOD IS WATCHING YOU! DO A GREAT JOB EVEN IF IT SEEMS MENIAL TO YOU!
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Note that this picture just became world famous now that it is posted on, you know who's site...