Hot Tub Forum

Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: Mendocino101 on May 11, 2005, 03:48:55 pm

Title: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: Mendocino101 on May 11, 2005, 03:48:55 pm
Just heard a radio commercial promoting the Pool and Spa show in town this weekend ....I won't get into the credibility of its sponsor as it has been hotly debated here before...But in the add it promotes a $10,000 spa, for only $3995.00 ...I am genuinely wondering how many people respond to this ....If so , do you believe that is a genuine $10,000.00 spa ....I just wondered as so many seem to speak about dealer ethics and is this ethical ......As I am sure most dealers here will tell you there is no real $10,000 spa that can ever be sold legitimately for 3995.00.....Thanks for your input ...
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: Brewman on May 11, 2005, 04:35:43 pm
If it's being sold for $4k, then it's a 4K spa.  
Wonder why they don't say it's a $20K spa, thereby saving the customer even more.
Brewman
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: J._McD on May 11, 2005, 06:23:47 pm
I would be very interesting to walk through and observe.  Leave you wallet in the car and lock your wife's purse in the trunk.  If the pressure turns on tell them you would like to THINK about it and return tomarrow.  Then come back and tell us what happened.  See if they give you a red, green or yellow bag to carry or maybe a balloon for the kids.

BTW, you might ask if Tim Beale is there, you can tell them you have seen his name mentioned on the web.

I would like to walk the show, but  I would be quickly identified and escorted out.   They took me off their Christmas Card List ever since........... :-X

I see their at the Pamona Fairplex Bldg 8 and Admission is FREE.
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: Jay_M on May 11, 2005, 06:37:10 pm
How do you determine what a spa is worth?
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: rocket on May 11, 2005, 10:38:15 pm
They pulled my business name into the ad here so I wrote to the State Attorney General.  Using this, the fact that they were saying that they were opening a store here and gave address (I included photos of this potential retail location), told him of upset customers that had called us wanting their money back and included an article from the State Attorney general of Missouri who is suing them for the cashable voucher program.  I just got a copy of a letter that the attorney gen. sent them with a stiff warning.

Good Luck
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: HotTubMan on May 11, 2005, 10:56:29 pm
WOW a $10K spa for $4K!!!!!

I could buy 2 or 3, sell them for $10K each and make a tidy little profit.....



Then I could use that money to buy a real spa.
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: J._McD on May 11, 2005, 11:03:43 pm
There is a sucker born every minute and two to take his money.  (and these guys do a good job at it)

Our (all the local dealers affiliated with the Association of Pool and Spa Professionals in our area with over 200 spas on display to see and sit in from 16 different manufacturers) show promoter is currently in  litigation (with the show promoter of the "National Pool And Spa Show) for undermining our show (saying our show moved into their show).  They know what they are doing and know where the hot pockets are.  these people are not naieve.  They are simply making hay while the sun shines and will be gone at some point in the future.
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: bosco0633 on May 12, 2005, 06:00:02 am
who?  

they sound like frauds
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: Mendocino101 on May 15, 2005, 08:42:21 am
Went to the show yesterday.... What a complete and total sham ... When I asked about the 10,000 spa that was 3995.00 no one knew what I was talking about . When I was far less than quiet about it being in every radio commercial that had been running though out the day .... Someone went into the closers both came out and said , it was only good for the first 50 people, I said the ad does not say anything like that and I was told it did.... Got into the car ad came on again and no mention of 50 people. I am biting my tongue right now not to mention this maker by name .... But I will say that they are disgrace to all people in retail and of course particularly in the spa industry ...they have no principles , no morals .
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: autoplay on May 15, 2005, 09:38:56 am
What's the brand name they are trying to sell?
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: hottubber on May 15, 2005, 10:18:01 am
You're right about one thing here. This "greatest show on earth" is going on in every state across the nation. It is a total scam, and yes there is a sucker born every day. Beware of this type of show...

Buyers, you must be on your toes for this one.


hottubber... ;D
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: J._McD on May 15, 2005, 01:24:30 pm
"I am biting my tongue right now not to mention this maker by name .... But I will say that they are disgrace to all people in retail and of course particularly in the spa industry ...they have no principles , no morals . "

It is truely unfortunate some of us actually know who this is and you are absolutely correct, they are a disgrace to the industry and to the many honest professionals that help consumers.

The spa they sell gets good reviews and those that have them enjoy them, it is just the marketing technique including bait and switch and the rip off artists that give it the bad name.  Mowgli has been through this dishonest experience.  They were going to deliver it but the dealer didn't know about it and said he wouldn't service it.
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: fatman on May 15, 2005, 02:24:40 pm
Could you please be politically incorrect and tell the rest of us who it is?  It would be a shame for any member of this forum to get ripped when it could be easily avoided.
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: J._McD on May 15, 2005, 03:41:15 pm
This dog and pony show crosses the country hitting as many "hot spot markets" they can.  

They are pressure selling what appears to be a "National Pool and Spa Show too big t be held in 15 showrooms with major manufacturers represented" (of course this is not true) They do a lot of damage to local markets, local sellers and buyers too.

Of course we all know there is NO $10,000 spa being sold for $3,995 but it sure make good fish bait and it brings in the unsuspecting shoppers to a show that is quickly recognized to be DOMINANTLY 1 manufacturer here today and gone tomarrow.  Their show runs from a Friday to Sunday.  They put out 300 to 400 road signs for traffic to see run a blitz ad campaign and they are on the plane when the local ordinance officers come back to work and get upset with the local spa sellers and the illegal signs advertising the "Pool and Spa Show".

I mentioned the main man in an earlier post in this thread.  They very aggressively promoted the Consumers Trust rebate program with your spa purchase.  This trust has recently been shut down by the Attorney General in MO as a Fraudulent Marketing Scheme and I think they have this guy along with others in their sights as well.

It is the marketing concepts that we deplore, which leave also leaves dealers with a bad taste in their mouths for the manufacturer.

The best recommendation I could give the consumer shopping a show, would be to make an appointment to meet in the showroom in the next few days to finalize the transaction.  At least then you know they are a local business.  Too many bad stories to tell about pressured sales at shows.

If it's a good deal today, It should be a good deal tomarrow, go check out the showroom and know who you are doing business with.
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: hottubber on May 15, 2005, 03:58:24 pm
Remember the show, I Dream of Jeannie? Barbara Eden always referred to Tony as MASTER, yes MASTER....

hottubber... :'(
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: BIG_PAPA on May 15, 2005, 04:46:34 pm
I dont feel the need to bight my lip about this manufacture it is  MASTER SPAS
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: wmccall on May 15, 2005, 05:07:36 pm
Quote
You're right about one thing here. This "greatest show on earth" is going on in every state across the nation.



I have yet to see or hear of one in Ohio.
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: mowgli1 on May 15, 2005, 05:35:23 pm
Quote


I have yet to see or hear of one in Ohio.

Cleveland and Toledo are on their schedule.
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: Gary1911 on May 15, 2005, 06:03:06 pm
Oh I guess the Ford, GM, Toyota guys advertising $6000 rebates ,Cash for your trade etc etc.......... is OK?  ::) ::) ::) ::)

Go to GM and PUSH THE BUTTON AT THE DEALER  ::)  Marketing whats the CRIME ?!!!!! retail is FULL OF SNAKES!!!
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: mowgli1 on May 15, 2005, 06:17:36 pm
Quote
Oh I guess the Ford, GM, Toyota guys advertising $6000 rebates ,Cash for your trade etc etc.......... is OK?  ::) ::) ::) ::)

Go to GM and PUSH THE BUTTON AT THE DEALER  ::)  Marketing whats the CRIME ?!!!!! retail is FULL OF SNAKES!!!

Yeah and at these shows the snakes are wearing golf shirts with the Master Spa logo on them.
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: autoplay on May 15, 2005, 06:19:44 pm
Is this the Master Spas that resides in Ft Wayne Ind?
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: Mendocino101 on May 15, 2005, 06:22:31 pm
Gary...

If you think being a snake is a good thing and since others do it must make it right.....Than you should always do business with those who feel the same as you.... Many would prefer to work with those who have a bit more integrity than that.... Also your comment is insulting to all auto dealers who do not play that type of game....but even with Autos 6000.00 off MSRP is not only more realistic but also verifiable ....Not so with spas and especially not when the company who is running the ad claims to know nothing about it.... I think you bought a M***** spa which if so...Is fine no one here is saying they are not a nice spa....but that the company promotes shows that are extremely deceitful ....
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: autoplay on May 15, 2005, 06:34:25 pm
If interested,I could enlighten a few via emails/instant messages concerning Master Spas.  Close internet bud formally worked at their facility.
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: Gary1911 on May 15, 2005, 06:55:08 pm
Quote
Gary...

If you think being a snake is a good thing and since others do it must make it right.....Than you should always do business with those who feel the same as you.... Many would prefer to work with those who have a bit more integrity than that.... Also your comment is insulting to all auto dealers who do not play that type of game....but even with Autos 6000.00 off MSRP is not only more realistic but also verifiable ....Not so with spas and especially not when the company who is running the ad claims to know nothing about it.... I think you bought a M***** spa which if so...Is fine no one here is saying they are not a nice spa....but that the company promotes shows that are extremely deceitful ....



Sorry if you misunderstood my point I NEVER SAID IT WAS OK!
I did say that retail is full of Snakes period.
Not so with spas? Or just YOUR competition?
I wont sit here and argue with you  as  I dont have enough FACTS. And I will be the first to admit this.

Auto dealers know exactly what I am talking about, up until a few years back some people would over pay for the SAME vehicle by THOUSANDS. BUT that would be OK.?
I am not trying to insult them but THEY know the BS game they play/played.  The ones that dont play that game shouldnt take offence.
Its not verifiable with spas so that makes it OK?

I also tested ALOT of different spas . If there is a crime being commited its a couple of them that are highly touted HERE and I found to be VERY OVER RATED.

Oh YEA I DID buy a MASTER LSX WITH LED<=, IN ALMOND PEARL, WITH REDWOOD SIDES.
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D. After I tested HS,Sundance,Hydropool and Saratoga.
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: Gary1911 on May 15, 2005, 06:57:53 pm
WINDSURFDOG clean-up isle 3  ;) :) ;D
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: Gary1911 on May 15, 2005, 07:01:38 pm
Quote
Yeah and at these shows the snakes are wearing golf shirts with the Master Spa logo on them.


And............... are Boat shows any different or does that not matter because they are NOT your competition? Car shows RV shows................. ???
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: mowgli1 on May 15, 2005, 07:30:45 pm
Quote

And............... are Boat shows any different or does that not matter because they are NOT your competition? Car shows RV shows................. ???

I am not a dealer. I am a consumer who  was defrauded at one of these shows with out and out bald faced LIES. So read your own posts especially the part about not knowing the facts.
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: Mendocino101 on May 15, 2005, 07:53:56 pm
Gary,
Forgive me about  not understanding what you are saying in your post...You bought a Master spa and that is fine AGAIN no one where has  questioned if they make a nice spa or not....You wet tested and found that it was the right spa for you GOOD.....NOW if you had bought at one of these so called super shows you would not have had the option to wet test...nor would you have local dealer support .... It is these shows that are in brought into question and the sales practices used at them .... And for anyone who some how wants to justify them well I guess thats OK... I think for those who do.... its a little like saying Hitler was just somehow a misunderstood artist ..... after so many here who have had experience with them and most always share the same type of stories which none seem to be positive ....
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: Gary1911 on May 15, 2005, 08:09:58 pm
Quote
I am not a dealer. I am a consumer who  was defrauded at one of these shows with out and out bald faced LIES. So read your own posts especially the part about not knowing the facts.


Sorry I dont know the facts in YOUR CASE! You were defrauded how?
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: mowgli1 on May 15, 2005, 08:12:12 pm
Gary, please let me add some  thoughts. I only wish you the best with your new spa. You bought your spa the right way. you tested different brands and found the right spa and dealer. Master spa does make a good spa and there are very happy owners posting on this site.
 What we are livid about are these shows that Master Spa condones. Their national director of marketing organizes them.  The sales practices they use are dishonest.

  I don't want to diminish your excitement for the new spa. I hope you enjoy it for many years to come.
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: Gary1911 on May 15, 2005, 08:13:58 pm
Quote
Gary,
Forgive me about  not understanding what you are saying in your post...You bought a Master spa and that is fine AGAIN no one where has  questioned if they make a nice spa or not....You wet tested and found that it was the right spa for you GOOD.....NOW if you had bought at one of these so called super shows you would not have had the option to wet test...nor would you have local dealer support .... It is these shows that are in brought into question and the sales practices used at them .... And for anyone who some how wants to justify them well I guess thats OK... I think for those who do.... its a little like saying Hitler was just somehow a misunderstood artist ..... after so many here who have had experience with them and most always share the same type of stories which none seem to be positive ....



I understand the other "Shows" seem to be the same way . Boat RV etc...............  I have NEVER been to a Home show ........
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: Gary1911 on May 15, 2005, 08:17:14 pm
Quote
Gary, please let me add some  thoughts. I only wish you the best with your new spa. You bought your spa the right way. you tested different brands and found the right spa and dealer. Master spa does make a good spa and there are very happy owners posting on this site.
  What we are livid about are these shows that Master Spa condones. Their national director of marketing organizes them.  The sales practices they use are dishonest.

   I don't want to diminish your excitement for the new spa. I hope you enjoy it for many years to come.



Thanks I hope your situation was resolved to your satisfaction.  Like I said I have never been to one of thoses shows and dont have the FACTS. Thanks again Gary
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: Mendocino101 on May 15, 2005, 08:34:37 pm
Gary..

Just to add... you buying a Master from a local dealer has nothing in common with these national traveling shows .....The way in which you bought your spa is fine and no different than any other brand....Enjoy your new spa....as Mowgli mentions it is these shows that are simply dishonest .....
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: Mendocino101 on May 15, 2005, 08:38:58 pm
Quote


I understand the other "Shows" seem to be the same way . Boat RV etc...............  I have NEVER been to a Home show ........

Gary,

see that is the real problem these are not even a Home Show ...they are just a event that is promoted as a large spa show with many national brands showing spas all under one roof....problem is in the end is and for the most part it is simply a Master factory spa sale ....that blows into town for a weekend and is gone the following week.....
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: Gary1911 on May 15, 2005, 09:03:41 pm
Quote
Gary,

see that is the real problem these are not even a Home Show ...they are just a event that is promoted as a large spa show with many national brands showing spas all under one roof....problem is in the end is and for the most part it is simply a Master factory spa sale ....that blows into town for a weekend and is gone the following week.....


Gotcha I see what your saying.  Is it Master ONLY?
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: J._McD on May 15, 2005, 10:06:16 pm
Quote


I have yet to see or hear of one in Ohio.


Zainsville, spring of '04. the police took down the license plates during set up and came back during the show and arrested one of the closers on an outstanding warrant and they took him out during the show.
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: J._McD on May 15, 2005, 10:31:18 pm
Quote

Gotcha I see what your saying.  Is it Master ONLY?

Gary, 1) you evauated your spa purchase and I will assume bought from a dealer because you did water test your spa.  You made a good choice and you should be proud of your decision, nobody said anything about your product.  Many of us are affected by the mardketing tactics and we find that what happens to our shopping traffic and the strories that consumers say about their experiences hurt not only our businesses but our industry as evidenced by your statement.

To read the way you put it, I guess anyone in sales can be a snake.  Yes, we are "salespeople" and we do take offense, because of what these people do.  We are affected, so are you in your overall impressions of sales or shoulod I say marketing tactics, as well as the rest of the consuming public.

Think of the things that are sold, Insurance, Stocks, Real Estate, "Investments", as well as cars, RV's, Boats, Hot Tubs, etc.etc.  I wuld like to think that 95% of sales people are governed by and have certain principles, methods, morals and ethics that guide them to doing a good job for their customer and the subsequent business that customer bring back to us.

Now, let's everybody go take a soak. ;D
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: Gary1911 on May 16, 2005, 06:52:03 am
Quote
Gary, 1) you evauated your spa purchase and I will assume bought from a dealer because you did water test your spa.  You made a good choice and you should be proud of your decision, nobody said anything about your product.  Many of us are affected by the mardketing tactics and we find that what happens to our shopping traffic and the strories that consumers say about their experiences hurt not only our businesses but our industry as evidenced by your statement.

To read the way you put it, I guess anyone in sales can be a snake.  Yes, we are "salespeople" and we do take offense, because of what these people do.  We are affected, so are you in your overall impressions of sales or shoulod I say marketing tactics, as well as the rest of the consuming public.

Think of the things that are sold, Insurance, Stocks, Real Estate, "Investments", as well as cars, RV's, Boats, Hot Tubs, etc.etc.  I wuld like to think that 95% of sales people are governed by and have certain principles, methods, morals and ethics that guide them to doing a good job for their customer and the subsequent business that customer bring back to us.

Now, let's everybody go take a soak. ;D



Hey J.  I probably should requalify that "there are some in retail that are snakes".......Better?  I am also in the service, sales biz as a small biz owner "BUT I DO NOT GO AROUND AND SLAM MY COMPETITION ON A REGULAR BASIS" no matter what they do. It seems that since I have been here MASTER is a target and a lot of people jump on the wagon to beat there drums every time there name is mentioned.

IS MASTER THE ONLY ONE THERE?

Are they selling leftovers? 2nds?

Mine is going to take 4-5 weeks. You mean they have a truck full of LSX's and I have to WAIT????

 ;D

Look guys I won't defend spas shows, but like I said it becomes redundant after a while, if what they are doing is illegal the .gov will catch up to them ..............


"Think of the things that are sold, Insurance, Stocks, Real Estate, "Investments", as well as cars, RV's, Boats, Hot Tubs, etc.etc."


I won't comment on that list







;) ;) ;) ;) ;D ;D

PS I cant go soak  :( :( :(
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: Gary1911 on May 16, 2005, 06:53:39 am
Quote

Zainsville, spring of '04. the police took down the license plates during set up and came back during the show and arrested one of the closers on an outstanding warrant and they took him out during the show.


They took down license plates???????????


Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: wmccall on May 16, 2005, 07:56:22 am
Quote

Zainsville, spring of '04. the police took down the license plates during set up and came back during the show and arrested one of the closers on an outstanding warrant and they took him out during the show.



Ok, any civilized part of Ohio.  ;D
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: windsurfdog on May 16, 2005, 09:33:18 am
Gary,

It took me many posts, just like yours, at this site to convince others here that there should be a differential between MS marketing during these shows and their product.  Previous posts about this subject a year or more ago at times would associate insinuations if not outright comments about MS quality/design/etc. with the postings about this marketing choice (I wanted to use the word "technique" but I feel that may make me sound as if I in some way condone it when in reality, I am ambivilent....this type of marketing had no effect on me as a spa saavy consumer and I would think that MS would have a difficult, if not impossible, time recruiting new retailers or keeping existing ones if this were a large enough issue for them).  Indeed the posts now make that differentiation and I thank all of the posters for the distinction.....

Like you, I've never seen nor heard of this show in my neck of the woods so I was skeptical at first but the sincerety of the majority of posters here have opened my eyes to their existence and their format.  I don't like deception in advertising.....and if there is anything illegal in what they are doing, I agree that eventually they will be caught......otherwise, marketing is marketing......an eye of the beholder thing.....
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: Gary1911 on May 16, 2005, 10:29:58 am
Hey Windy, Yea I will back off, but the truth is that sometimes marketing can steer a consumer in the opposite direction which would be good for the "Other" guys or like has been posted a negative effect on that particular industry.

I guess one of the problems I see here is that the original Thread starter would be "Trolling" exciting a responce knowing what is going to be said again , and again...........

I'm not pickin on ya I just don't see the point to post such a thing time and time again.


I have yet to have my question answered though. IS IT ONLY MASTER? IS MASTER THE ONLY ONE IN THE BUILDING AT THIS SHOW?
THERE ARE NO OTHER MANUFACTURERS AT THIS SHOW?
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: J._McD on May 16, 2005, 11:26:05 am
"I have yet to have my question answered though. IS IT ONLY MASTER? IS MASTER THE ONLY ONE IN THE BUILDING AT THIS SHOW?  
THERE ARE NO OTHER MANUFACTURERS AT THIS SHOW?"

Gary,

the answer is YES.  Over time accross the country they take trade ins or have otherwise obtained other manufaturer models usually smaller manufacturers that they display hiring young sales people who don't know much about spas.  It sometimes MAY appear to be other sellers there but they are in control and these displays end up selling nothing.  They also bring in large fiberglass pool dealers to represent their products.  If you are a ligitimate Hot Tub dealer, you are not welcome or allowed into the show.

They also have video tapes on continious run representing the Manufacturer CHALLENGE showing the 2 leading manufacturers products "loosing the challenge" the reps in the video are identified with "manufacturer logo" shirts on in the video.  The same faces always appear in their shirt selling during the show.  Go figure.  It might be a sleazy to market but you have no idea how successfully they pull this off on a national scale.

Who you gonna call, "Ghost Busters"?  ???

It is their show, if they take space in a "Health and Fitness Show" they obtain an exclusive arrangement to be the only hot tub seller there.  In essence they form a monopoly that looks like an open show.  

In some instances, it is like catching salmon swimming upstream.  Have you ever seen that bear at the top of the water fall that catches them as they jump into his mouth. ;D ;D
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: Mendocino101 on May 16, 2005, 11:37:19 am
Gary,

Since I was the one who posted the thread and with out ever mentioning who it was putting the showing on .....As I did not want to come across as someone looking to jump on them .... As that had been done in the past and why do it again .....My legitimate was reason was to ask the question when you see a ad for a $10,000.00 spa being sold this weekend for only $3995.00 do you respond ... I was looking at from a dealers point of view with thought do people really buy into this line of what is nothing more than total Bu**Sh**...Others finally after being prodded about who sponsors the show brought up their name ...To answer your question they dominate the show and the others who are there are typically a non competitive spa like a free flow or a soft tub .... there are nothing wrong with these shows if in fact they would simply be as promoted like actually having a spa that you claim is valued at 10,000.00 and selling it for 3995.00 if you could find a sales person there who knew about it that would be a good thing and  another would be when you advertise all of theses different manufactures are going to be there... to actually have them there ...well that to would be good.... instead of it being by and large a M***** spa sale ......and hey nothing wrong in that....just tell people thats what it is....
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: Gary1911 on May 16, 2005, 03:13:36 pm
Quote
Gary,

Since I was the one who posted the thread and with out ever mentioning who it was putting the showing on .....As I did not want to come across as someone looking to jump on them .... As that had been done in the past and why do it again .....My legitimate was reason was to ask the question when you see a ad for a $10,000.00 spa being sold this weekend for only $3995.00 do you respond ... I was looking at from a dealers point of view with thought do people really buy into this line of what is nothing more than total Bu**Sh**...Others finally after being prodded about who sponsors the show brought up their name ...To answer your question they dominate the show and the others who are there are typically a non competitive spa like a free flow or a soft tub .... there are nothing wrong with these shows if in fact they would simply be as promoted like actually having a spa that you claim is valued at 10,000.00 and selling it for 3995.00 if you could find a sales person there who knew about it that would be a good thing and  another would be when you advertise all of theses different manufactures are going to be there... to actually have them there ...well that to would be good.... instead of it being by and large a M***** spa sale ......and hey nothing wrong in that....just tell people thats what it is....



I understand, you handled that "like a PRO"!  I'm not here to judge their marketing strategies  but ........... anyway I understand a little better not saying it's right or wrong I just understand.  

PS Thanks J also

Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: ndabunka on May 16, 2005, 10:52:34 pm
I met the "National Sales Director" from Master at one of these "Spa shows" when it was here in Charlotte, NC nearly a year ago.  I asked him why he tries to get $13K for a spa when you can get comprably equiped spas from other mfgs for $8-9K.  His response was "If someone can spend $13K, why not take as much $'s as you can out of them? Why would you WANT to sell them a $8K spa?"  In reality....He was not in touch with it.  This discussion happened after I had already talked with a sales rep who brought this guy in to "influence" me on how great their products were and AFTER I told him that I had been considering opening up a spa store and have been "dissapointed" that I had missed a chance at reping their line (as a new dealer picked them up and had in fact participated in the show).  In short, the local store owner here in Charlotte may be a great guy but the Director of sales was "Scum of the earth sleezy" sales IMHO.
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: Gary1911 on May 17, 2005, 06:57:15 am
Let the buyer BEWARE!
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: J._McD on May 17, 2005, 09:18:38 am
"the Director of sales was "Scum of the earth sleezy" sales IMHO."

So then, you met Tim B. who was mentioned earlier.  He has the charisma of a serpent.
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: mowgli1 on May 17, 2005, 11:48:51 am
Quote
"the Director of sales was "Scum of the earth sleezy" sales IMHO."

So then, you met Tim B. who was mentioned earlier.  He has the charisma of a serpent.

Ouch J., that's a low blow to reptiles everywhere. ;D
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: windsurfdog on May 17, 2005, 12:08:18 pm
Quote
...(as a new dealer picked them up and had in fact participated in the show).  In short, the local store owner here in Charlotte may be a great guy but the Director of sales was "Scum of the earth sleezy" sales IMHO.

So it looks like, at least in this case, the local MS dealers are not threatened by this....only other brands' dealers are threatened?  Maybe the MS local dealers even like it?  I guess one mans scum is another man's chum.....
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: mowgli1 on May 17, 2005, 12:17:49 pm
Talk to any of the local MS dealers who don't participate in these shows ( which are the vast majority} and listen to their reactions about the shows. See how they feel about them dumping sales in to their territories and making false claims about the local dealers responsability to deliver and service them. You couldn't print those MS dealers reactions on this site w/o heavy censorship.
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: Gary1911 on May 17, 2005, 12:41:36 pm
Quote
So it looks like, at least in this case, the local MS dealers are not threatened by this....only other brands' dealers are

threatened?  Maybe the MS local dealers even like it?  I guess one mans scum is another man's chum.....


That was kinda what I was thinking
???

Not saying its right,    just ..........................
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: Gary1911 on May 17, 2005, 12:45:14 pm
Quote
Talk to any of the local MS dealers who don't participate in these shows ( which are the vast majority} and listen to their reactions about the shows. See how they feel about them dumping sales in to their territories and making false claims about the local dealers responsability to deliver and service them. You couldn't print those MS dealers reactions on this site w/o heavy censorship.



Ya know what I dont understand and hve seen this before .
Why does the dealer feel he should NOT have to /or does not want to service the spa? If the spa is under warranty they get paid by the manufacturer to repair and or replace the faulty parts True? What seems to be the problem?
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: Mendocino101 on May 17, 2005, 01:02:28 pm
Quote
So it looks like, at least in this case, the local MS dealers are not threatened by this....only other brands' dealers are threatened?  Maybe the MS local dealers even like it?  I guess one mans scum is another man's chum.....

Windsurf,

I know you very much like your tub....but your instance on trying find some favorable way to spin what they do....You are really reaching...I will share 2 things one it was out of respect for you and Drifter that I did not bring their name in the start of this post and secondly because of our discussion a couple of months back was the reason I went to the show ....To try and see it in a different light ....This was my 3rd time attending the show and it will be my last as .....It confirmed to me all I thought of them and actually took it to another level for reasons I will not mention but lets just say the Police were discussed .... You can say another mans scum is another chum.....and I guess if you are bottom feeding crab or catfish yeah that might work.....but none the less its for bottom feeders ... All I am trying to understand is how...with what seems to be the most consistently mentioned thing here on this board and that is dealers inconsistently and lack of integrity...do you not see that this is simply wrong.. ..And this is something that casts a bad light on all dealers as we get lumped together and it leaves a bad taste on many a consumers mouth ....When you say threaten its not by the product or the price it is  the deceitfulness that we can not compete with .....
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: Mendocino101 on May 17, 2005, 01:08:48 pm
Quote

That was kinda what I was thinking
 ???

Not saying its right,    just ..........................


What the manufactures pays in some cases do not cover the full cost of doing service to the dealer ....Also if you are busy and putting off taking care of the folks you have sold because you are out servicing those you did not...than its a problem ....but the biggest reasons is its cost ....You get paid only for one trip and if it takes 2 or 3 you are responsible to fix the problem....You will be reimbursed all part costs but it is the labor that you lose on ....
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: Spatech_tuo on May 17, 2005, 01:09:44 pm
Quote


Ya know what I dont understand and hve seen this before .
Why does the dealer feel he should NOT have to /or does not want to service the spa? If the spa is under warranty they get paid by the manufacturer to repair and or replace the faulty parts True? What seems to be the problem?


The truth of the matter is the payment rate to the dealer from the manufacturer (it varies by manufacturer) for servicing a spa under warranty is certainly less than what a customer pays directly when their spa is not under warranty. Dealers aren't making a lot of money (some will say none) on warranty servicewhen you factor in all their costs. However, they know this when they sell the spa and part of the sales profits cover customer service whether it's a spa orientation, calls for help, etc. However, if its not their spa sale they're not too happy with having to take over the warranty service and customer service as someone else got the sales profits and they have to then be there to carry the ball after that.
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: windsurfdog on May 17, 2005, 02:07:38 pm
Quote
Windsurf,

I know you very much like your tub....but your instance on trying find some favorable way to spin what they do....You are really reaching...I will share 2 things one it was out of respect for you and Drifter that I did not bring their name in the start of this post and secondly because of our discussion a couple of months back was the reason I went to the show ....To try and see it in a different light ....This was my 3rd time attending the show and it will be my last as .....It confirmed to me all I thought of them and actually took it to another level for reasons I will not mention but lets just say the Police were discussed .... You can say another mans scum is another chum.....and I guess if you are bottom feeding crab or catfish yeah that might work.....but none the less its for bottom feeders ... All I am trying to understand is how...with what seems to be the most consistently mentioned thing here on this board and that is dealers inconsistently and lack of integrity...do you not see that this is simply wrong.. ..And this is something that casts a bad light on all dealers as we get lumped together and it leaves a bad taste on many a consumers mouth ....When you say threaten its not by the product or the price it is  the deceitfulness that we can not compete with .....


Well, Mendo, I guess you didn't read the first of my posts in this thread....shame.....

Let's see if you can accept this positive spin....

Once subjected to it, either consumers will be turned off to MS by this type of marketing thereby taking MS out of the consumers' consideration (a good thing for you, BTW).  Or consumers will purchase and, if they "fall" for this tactic, you probably wouldn't want them as clients anyway.  My point is this....you don't have to service their tubs so I don't understand why you and others are so vehement about it......fuggetaboutit.....the more you worry about it, the greater the satisfaction to the "scum".  Your points are very transparent.....dealers who don't sell MS are upset....dealers who do sell MS and are upset should change brands.....otherwise, continue feeding the flames if you wish.....

And, BTW, why did it take you 3 visits to figure all this out?
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: Mendocino101 on May 17, 2005, 02:17:21 pm
Quote


And, BTW, why did it take you 3 visits to figure all this out?

I guess....I am just very very slow......Or I was trying to be fair and objective .....maybe both... ::)
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: J._McD on May 17, 2005, 03:49:42 pm
Windsurf and all others,

We are not slammin the goods, it is the unethical tactics of selling spas and if you will allow me, ripping people off, even the MS dealers are offended, and no they won't service what the show guys sell because the show guys reap the $$$$ and dump the goods into the marketing zone.  It works great for the manufaturer.

The unfortunate part of this story is that they have been doing this dog and pony show for more than 4 years and they have done a lot of consumer damage to our shoppers and our industry, so thus WE DON"T LIKE WHAT IT DOES and the bad taste it leaves in the mind of the consumer.  You have heard it from other consumers not only dealers >:( >:(

If you can not read in between the lines, we the dealers are the ones most affected, including some legitimate MS dealers who don't like it either.  What can they do, other than close their business in protest IF the manufacturer allows these "sales" to continue.  BTW they love the production numbers.
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: East_TX_Spa on May 17, 2005, 03:58:13 pm
From a marketing standpoint only, I think it is a pretty savvy idea.  Most consumers are under the assumption that all spas are "jacuzzis" anyway and one's as good as another.  Many consumers are also under the impression that they will get a better deal at an off-site event than in the store.  This combination of traits is, I believe, prevalent in the majority of people looking to buy a spa.  This is who they are targeting.

More power to them if it helps them sell spas.  You can't make someone buy something they don't want.  Obviously, these customers are looking to buy and Master Spa is finding a way to sell it to them.  Time will tell whether the consumers are happy with their purchase.

I am not a high pressure salesperson.  I could never do what it sounds like these guys and some other spa manufacturers do to sell their products.  I could never engage in half-truths and exagerrations in order to force someone's hand in buying my spa (I am a consumer as well and absolutely loathe dealing with a slick talking car salesman type).

I'm extremely grateful that I represent a company who has made it to the top of the industry by selling the product on such things as quality, service, performance, enjoyment, and support after the sale.  I can walk down the streets where I work and live and not have to turn the other way because I see a disgruntled customer coming my way.  I make customers for life.  Those are the one's I want.

Terminator
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: windsurfdog on May 17, 2005, 04:18:15 pm
Quote
From a marketing standpoint only, I think it is a pretty savvy idea.  Most consumers are under the assumption that all spas are "jacuzzis" anyway and one's as good as another.  Many consumers are also under the impression that they will get a better deal at an off-site event than in the store.  This combination of traits is, I believe, prevalent in the majority of people looking to buy a spa.  This is who they are targeting.

More power to them if it helps them sell spas.  You can't make someone buy something they don't want.  Obviously, these customers are looking to buy and Master Spa is finding a way to sell it to them.  Time will tell whether the consumers are happy with their purchase.

I am not a high pressure salesperson.  I could never do what it sounds like these guys and some other spa manufacturers do to sell their products.  I could never engage in half-truths and exagerrations in order to force someone's hand in buying my spa (I am a consumer as well and absolutely loathe dealing with a slick talking car salesman type).

I'm extremely grateful that I represent a company who has made it to the top of the industry by selling the product on such things as quality, service, performance, enjoyment, and support after the sale.  I can walk down the streets where I work and live and not have to turn the other way because I see a disgruntled customer coming my way.  I make customers for life.  Those are the one's I want.

Terminator

A voice of reason from a dealer rises to the top....thank you, TX....it's easy to see why you have been successful in the industry for over 20 years.  Concentrating on one's own philosophy without "stooping" to the level of the competition is indeed a wise practice.
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: mowgli1 on May 17, 2005, 04:48:02 pm
It's a lot easier to be in business that long when you represent a company that has integrity, business scruples, and loyalty to their dealers.
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: windsurfdog on May 17, 2005, 04:58:29 pm
Quote
It's a lot easier to be in business that long when you represent a company that has integrity, business scruples, and loyalty to their dealers.

I would agree though I bet the other dealers who are hot under the collar about this are represented by companies that have integrity, business scruples, and loyalty to their dealers as well.....the difference is TX's attitude.....certainly worth emulating.....
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: Mendocino101 on May 17, 2005, 05:17:03 pm
Windsurfdog,

Please help me to understand the attitude we should emulate. By calling out and asking a question of consumers do you buy into this type of marketing . I fully respect and appreciate Ex Tex professionalism, He may not have to deal with these types of shows 3 and 4 times a year so maybe he has had less hands on experiences with them. But it seems to come down those who some how want to justify the way they do business . Again if that works for those who do great. But to deceive and lie should never be confused with being savvy and cleaver.
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: Spatech_tuo on May 17, 2005, 05:35:09 pm
I'm more with you Mendo on this one. Master dealers may not be responsible for this but Master Central is and if people have a lesser degree of respect for them because of it it's warranted IMHO. If they'll condone such practices at the corporate level for these "Spa shows" for the sake of a sale then I have to wonder about other decisions they MAY make at times relative to quality, schedule promises, etc. The sale may be the most important thing to all dealers and manufacturers but they all have to also factor in customer needs, their reputation, etc. and they all use a different formulas when considering such things. Cal Spas is the example of a company that has a reputation for putting the customer second. I think Master has to be careful that such practices don't send them reputation in that direction. By the way, this is just my opinion (but I'm sticking to it).
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: J._McD on May 17, 2005, 07:37:18 pm
If we are talking about marketing kudo's, hands down they are the best at what they do.  

Most other manufacturers who have promoted marketing efforts they most commonly do it in the interest of the dealership network building exposure to their name brand and follow it up with glowing customer service.

If the truth be known, I'm not mad or angry about this, because I can't do a darn thing about it.  Fact is, that means I am either jealous or I am complaining, and I am not complaining.

So I guess that makes me jealous.  Do you have any idea how profitable this could be?

These guys spend more on advertising in one weekend then I am able to afford to spend over a years time.  

They buy the product at a lower cost than the dealers pay, they have no overhead other than travel expenses, they support no service network, they sub out the deliveries, they only pay commissions on sales, They don't pay rent, insurance, workman's comp, employee benefits, utilities, and they reward the salesperson for "over par" pricing to get as many $$ they can, and they leave town on Monday.

Sure, they have to plan and strategize,  rent temporary sites, pay for the advertising, arrange transportation and make the bank deposits and never look back or deal with the unhappy or disappointed customers.

They just make hay while the sun shines.  What's wrong with that, eh?  There giving the consumers what they want, aren't they? ??? ??? ???
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: Mendocino101 on May 17, 2005, 07:56:11 pm
J_Mcd,


Now Now.....its not all like that ......I mean when you blow into a town for a only a few days at a time you don't know the better restaurants .... You may not know the quickest way to get to the bank ..... The salesman who are over par are going to grind you for a bigger piece of the pie and than you are going have to keep hearing  the words...." Home Run" or "Boy did I rip their heads Off" ....
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: Gary1911 on May 17, 2005, 08:34:53 pm
Quote
From a marketing standpoint only, I think it is a pretty savvy idea.  Most consumers are under the assumption that all spas are "jacuzzis" anyway and one's as good as another.  Many consumers are also under the impression that they will get a better deal at an off-site event than in the store.  This combination of traits is, I believe, prevalent in the majority of people looking to buy a spa.  This is who they are targeting.

More power to them if it helps them sell spas.  You can't make someone buy something they don't want.  Obviously, these customers are looking to buy and Master Spa is finding a way to sell it to them.  Time will tell whether the consumers are happy with their purchase.

I am not a high pressure salesperson.  I could never do what it sounds like these guys and some other spa manufacturers do to sell their products.  I could never engage in half-truths and exagerrations in order to force someone's hand in buying my spa (I am a consumer as well and absolutely loathe dealing with a slick talking car salesman type).

I'm extremely grateful that I represent a company who has made it to the top of the industry by selling the product on such things as quality, service, performance, enjoyment, and support after the sale.  I can walk down the streets where I work and live and not have to turn the other way because I see a disgruntled customer coming my way.  I make customers for life.  Those are the one's I want.

Terminator



Great post Chris!! Bravo!  Gary
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: windsurfdog on May 18, 2005, 09:51:20 am
Quote
Windsurfdog,

Please help me to understand the attitude we should emulate. By calling out and asking a question of consumers do you buy into this type of marketing . I fully respect and appreciate Ex Tex professionalism, He may not have to deal with these types of shows 3 and 4 times a year so maybe he has had less hands on experiences with them. But it seems to come down those who some how want to justify the way they do business . Again if that works for those who do great. But to deceive and lie should never be confused with being savvy and cleaver.

Once again, please read the my first post on this subject to understand how I feel about this.

It's pretty easy to sit on a bulletin board or chat room and talk about "deceive and lie".....if you're so worked up about it, call up corporate MS and call them liars and deceivers.....do something about it.....take your "proof" and call their hand.

I don't buy into this "....makes the industry look bad...." BS either....They don't make the industry look any worse than the local Sundance dealer I desperately tried to buy a Cameo from or Sundance corporate who will not let dealers other than the closest to me give me a quote much less sell me a tub.  The local Sundance dealer could only spew about how inferior Hot Springs was compared to Sundance and how the advertising that Rec Warehouse, the local Hot Springs dealer, was so deceptive (sound familiar?).  This didn't do anything but lose a solid sale for him and leave me with my current attitude toward him.....it didn't drag the entire industry down with him, in my opinion.  And MasterSpas benefitted from the fallout.......

And why do you "have to deal with these types of shows 3 and 4 times a year"?  You don't have to deal with these shows AT ALL....you don't have to go to'em, to work at'em, to service the tubs sold after they're gone.....WHAT IS THE BIG FREAKING DEAL?  Let them slice their own throats if they wish....you'll reap the benefits of the fallout.....that is, if there really is any.  Once again, I suggest you fuggetaboutit.....go have a beer and a soak and fuggetaboutit.......

And tuo said:
Quote
If they'll condone such practices at the corporate level for these "Spa shows" for the sake of a sale then I have to wonder about other decisions they MAY make at times relative to quality, schedule promises, etc.

So now we go back to this old, worn out coorelation between marketing and tub quality......face it.....comments like that MAY be submitted to influence the casual reader here.  Is this any less deceptive or any more truthful than what you MAY be complaining about?
Title: that Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: J._McD on May 18, 2005, 10:05:16 am
Windsurf,

First, let's be friendly and I do not mean to offend you in any way.  We all respect the input of each other.  You seem to be somewhat sensitive about this subject, but then so are we, but in a different way.  

If you will for a moment, take a deep breath, relax and try to understand our prespective,

#1
"It's pretty easy to sit on a bulletin board or chat room and talk about "deceive and lie".....if you're so worked up about it, call up corporate MS and call them liars and deceivers.....do something about it.....take your "proof" and call their hand."

I did exactly what you suggested, each and every word, I took action and I supported everything I said with factual proof.  I found myself, an individual person, inundated with legal intimidation and harassment.  I did in fact have an impact on their advertising materials, their advertisers and the way they do business and I paid my attorney to sit beside me for conferences intended to SHUT ME UP, cease and desist.   :-X They can afford to do this battle better than I.  I am simply a thorn in their side and I have been removed from their christmas card list.

Well there was nothing that could be done because what was said was both factual and truthful, but why should I have to pay my attorney for this legal intimidation and for whose benefit, the truth? other dealers, the consumers??? I did what I did because some of what they do is WRONG.

Later, the EPA had their way with them over issues that were raised, but that took 2 years.

My shopping market is and has been affected for more than 4 years and nobody in the industry likes what they say or do.  

#2
"I don't buy into this "....makes the industry look bad...." BS either....They don't make the industry look any worse than the local Sundance dealer "

You are a single consumer and you are offended by your preception of how you were treated by a single dealer.  I am a dealer and I have been affected by this issue every week for more than 4 years.  It is not the loss of business that is the issue, it is the "attitude" of the consumer who also has been offended and this flows over into our industry, as one negative impression is always remembered and repeatedly mentioned, such as your experience.  Positive issues do not have the same result or impact.

#3
Chances are good that could have been me, or a hundred other dealers, on a given day to have to deal with the loss of a sale from someone who bought because they believed the lies, the misleading deception, the radio "personality" who endorses them, and the $10,000 rebate they would be getting back in 3 years.  Go through this a multiple of times as consumers come in to shop your product only to confirm they made a good decision on the deal they got at a show.  It is called buyer's remorse and due dilligence or lack thereof.

And, this unfortunate event, as you can see, would loose me a sale and have you repeatedly telling everyone how negative I was and how that reflects on the manufacturer that I represent.

#4
".....WHAT IS THE BIG FREAKING DEAL?  Let them slice their own throats if they wish....you'll reap the benefits of the fallout....."

To some of us who depend on this industry for our livelyhood, it is a big deal.  For the occassional shopper or single time buyer, I do understand you prespective and point of view.  

As for your thought, they may well do just that, but how long must we wait and can we hold out for nature to take it's course? ??? I guess that too is our problem not yours.

Please do not be offended by my point of view, I live it every day and must deal with both the good and the bad as we have for 21 years.  We try our best to focus on our customers only.  It is when these orphans call around looking for help that we are reminded, they bought from someone else who is NOT taking care of them, and the stories they tell are not good. :-X :-X

A question for you, please respond, MS displays a banner commerating their 25th anniversay.  Do you know when they opened their business? ??? ??? Can anyone answer that question? ??? ???
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: East_TX_Spa on May 18, 2005, 10:26:09 am
Quote
He may not have to deal with these types of shows 3 and 4 times a year so maybe he has had less hands on experiences with them.


You are right Mendocino, I haven't had to deal with this type of promotion where I am.  Probably the closest thing I can compare it to are some of the "factory direct" (not to be confused with Factory Direct Spas of Canada, a reputable retail dealer of fine brand name spas) guys that set up on the side of the road and offer "factory direct pricing."  It sounds like the spa show you are dealing with is a very high level production and I can see where it would be very aggravating to deal with.  I sympathize with your plight.

The impulse buy consumers I mostly encounter will purchase a spa at the State Fair of Texas in Dallas, a 2 hour drive from here.  They come to my store to buy chemicals and ask about water care procedures.  I try to help them where I can.  The nut-cutting time occurs when they start having mechanical problems and realize no one is there to service their spa.  They then come to the realization that maybe they should trade in their problem spa (we give them $400 credit on a spa that is 2 years old, less for anything older) on a spa with local dealer support.  We take the approach that if we don't get them the first time around, we will have another opportunity within 4-5 years.  That's about all we can hope for.

Terminator
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: obi wan on May 18, 2005, 11:11:25 am
this is kind of caveat emptor at its best.
I'm no dealer but i can understand the frustration. unfortunately there will always be people who think they can get a better deal at a show, or on the side of the road, etc....
here in va beach we have truck loads of "real" north carolina furniture that are often set out on closed gas station corners that are a "factory direct specials", today and tomorrow only. there is a company that sells artwork the same way.....  
out of curiosity, does any one know, have any of the masters dealers complained to corp? i totally agree that my general opinion of the comp as a whole goes down, when they use these kind of tactics, but i would think that a masters dealer would have the most to complain about if one of these shows was set up in his area.
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: buckeyespa on May 18, 2005, 11:44:30 am
TX is right, the shows are expensive. I used to be in the spa business and had looked into this, but theres no way we could have afforded it.  Most of these shows go into vacant bldgs and rent for the weekend. Avg rent we were finding was 3500-5000.00 a weekend, that doesnt include electric. Water is usually turned off, so you have to have water trucked in for your running displays. Then theres clean up costs. Then you have to figure what it costs you to bring in spas, pools, gazebos, etc. Then theres the set up staff hourly wage, and if the show is out of town theres hotel costs as well.

So figure another 2k on top of the 5k already. So now bring in the spas, sometimes mfg's will float the spas other times they want payment. Whats a truck load of spas cost, say 20-30k?

Now lets put the ads on tv, radio, and newspaper, another 10k.  Now Im spending 40k for a 3 day event. I need to make a TON of money for the show to be profitable. I  have to cover all these costs, plus salesman's commisions and hotel bills too if I brought in a special sales team to augment my own sales staff.

If youre a small dealer, its tough to compete against this. If you have deep pockets and roll with both the good and bad, you MIGHT make it doing these type of shows.

And folks, it aint just MS who does this. With my new job I travel all over the US and I see every brand out there doing it in one form or another. Heck, if my partner and I could have afford it, we would have.

Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: Gary1911 on May 18, 2005, 11:57:15 am
[quote author=buckeyespa

And folks, it aint just MS who does this. With my new job I travel all over the US and I see every brand out there doing it in one form or another. Heck, if my partner and I could have afford it, we would have.

[/quote]

Aint that the TRUTH !!!!!!!! I like the part about if HE COULD AFFORD IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It has to cost a BUNDLE BUT IF they KEEP doing it IT must be working
:)                                                             Gary
Title: Re: Here's how you get comparison prices
Post by: masterge on May 18, 2005, 01:11:16 pm
Lie.  Find Sundance dealers around the country.   Tell them you are moving to the area they serve.   Yes, go to mapquest, put in the dealer's zip and find a street.   Their practices are less than honorable and worst than car buying.   Most will come back with a quote that you can use to haggle with the local dealer.   I just saved almost $2K on a 2005 Cameo using these tactics.
Title: Re: Here's how you get comparison prices
Post by: J._McD on May 18, 2005, 01:30:59 pm
Quote
Lie.  Find Sundance dealers around the country.   Tell them you are moving to the area they serve.   Yes, go to mapquest, put in the dealer's zip and find a street.   Their practices are less than honorable and worst than car buying.   Most will come back with a quote that you can use to haggle with the local dealer.   I just saved almost $2K on a 2005 Cameo using these tactics.


I see that you are new to the board, welcome.

But, what part about your tactic or paractice is not misleading or deceptive but yet honorable?  Your first word tells the truth.  I guess for some it is OK, eh?  ??? It seems to be the way of many.
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: windsurfdog on May 18, 2005, 03:23:00 pm
J McD,

Thank you for your thoughtful explanation.  I can understand and converse much better in an atmosphere that is based  on thought rather than emotion.  One gets much better results when name-calling and innuendo are left behind.

#1--I admire respect your efforts to pursue remedy for this and, like so many other practices that pervade our American society,  deep pockets and lawyers are hard to crack.  So I guess the changes you precipitated have at least made the process a little more palatable though far from the desired m.o. that would be preferable.  

#2--I see your point.  Sounds like another opportunity to turn a lemon into lemonade....but not all consumers will try to blame you for the failures of others.

#3--Well I hope this isn't you or anyone else here.  After being in his store at least 5 times and trying my best to negotiate a reasonable (not best) price for his product (all the while listening to him trash Hot Springs and competitor's advertising), he told me (and I quote, word-for-word), "What makes you think you have the right to come into my place of business and make me an offer for my product?"  I promptly wished him luck (he had only been a hot tub dealer for a couple of months) and told him I guess we couldn't do business.  Now if you have this attitude at any time with your customers, it will definitely leave a bad taste in their mouths.  My point is--I was in there multiple times trying to cut a deal to buy his product--I was not in there shopping my own deal with buyer's remorse.  I've never been back to his spa store or any of the other businesses he has in town and I will never frequent them.  Otherwise, having to deal with the buyers remorse customers would be difficult but, with the right attitude, could lead to future business with that consumer.  Outside of that, I guess you just chalk it up to the cost of doing spa business.

#4--I'm sorry, I really didn't try to "walk a mile in your moccasins"....too much emotion involved....I see your point.  I guess you'll have to hold out as long as the furniture dealers that have to deal with the roadside "North Carolina Factory Direct Furniture" sales or the carpet dealers that have to put up with the "Authentic India Rug" sales at the abandoned gas station or the local car dealers that have to suffer the best price credit union car buying service.  Somehow I just don't think this thing is going to run anyone out of business....but it certainly seems to take its toll with the local dealers.......

I have no idea how long MS has been in business.  I've scoured their website and see no indication of when they started doing business or how long they've been in business.  I see no 25th anniversary banner, either.
Title: Re: Here's how you get comparison prices
Post by: windsurfdog on May 18, 2005, 03:30:32 pm
Quote
Lie.  Find Sundance dealers around the country.   Tell them you are moving to the area they serve.   Yes, go to mapquest, put in the dealer's zip and find a street.   Their practices are less than honorable and worst than car buying.   Most will come back with a quote that you can use to haggle with the local dealer.   I just saved almost $2K on a 2005 Cameo using these tactics.

Sorry, masterge, lying just isn't in my negotiation philosophy or any other philosophy to which I espouse.  i will agree though that Sundance's practices are rather monopolistic for the local dealer.  I feel MUCH better having taken my business elsewhere.
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: East_TX_Spa on May 18, 2005, 03:38:19 pm
When I was at the Watkins factory a couple of months ago, the sales trainer was pointing out the fact that most people think salesmen lie, when, in actuality, the customers are the ones who lie to us!  It is true!  I don't lie to customers (I can't afford to or my credibility is ruined).  I catch customers lying to me on a daily basis.  Sometimes I call them on it, sometimes I just let it slide.

Terminator
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: J._McD on May 18, 2005, 05:42:13 pm
Gary, he is not calling someone a liar, he is suggesting that others should adopt the practice.  

Remember, if it's ok for the Bill Clinton and Monica I believe others think it's allowable, if only to get what they want.  I wonder if he has children? ???

Windsurf, thanks for your understanding.  Regarding the dealer, I would simply call that a cross between arrogance and anger and not a good way to make lasting impressions that will develope business.

I did that once in '92 when I was younger and just started with SD and I was responding to a customers question at a show when I said, "first, you should know that SD is not an inexpensive spa."   :-[ END of presentation, I was innocent but considered offensive and the customer reaction was immediate.

Sometimes we need to listen to what we say, or more importantly how it is heard.  I embarassed myself and have always been careful since then.  I too lost the potential for a sale.

It is what we lean in life that makes us better people. ;D
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: masterge on May 21, 2005, 12:50:58 am
Honor?  LOL.  When virtually every SPA manufacturer and their dealers take a monopoly-like approach to their sales, their are virtually no reliable consumer org reviews or comparison price info you must ask where is the honor in the SPA industry?  

Additionally, I have been to numerous boards like this.   You can tell that they do have some good real consumer info.   However, you can also tell that they are loaded with propaganda and intentional disinformation from I wonder who.   Folks that are associated with these HONORABLE dealers??? Oor is it those dishonorable dealers and manufacturers.  

I will fight fire with fire.   You be honorable and pay the extra $$$s.   I'll take the lower price and live the fact that I was less than honorable in getting a local SPA dealer to sell me a SPA at a fair market price.   SPAs are long over due for a consumer reports to do a full review.

Title: Re: Here's how you get comparison prices
Post by: masterge on May 21, 2005, 12:53:00 am
Quote


WOOOOHOOO !! Post #2 Right out of the gate and calling someone a LIAR . Thanks I know who to ignore!  

Gary



You missed the point dude.  
Title: Re: Here's how you get comparison prices
Post by: zzaphod42 on May 21, 2005, 10:19:20 am
Quote
Lie.  Find Sundance dealers around the country.   Tell them you are moving to the area they serve.   Yes, go to mapquest, put in the dealer's zip and find a street.   Their practices are less than honorable and worst than car buying.   Most will come back with a quote that you can use to haggle with the local dealer.   I just saved almost $2K on a 2005 Cameo using these tactics.

Hmmm... With the dealer in question, how do you KNOW they would not have been willing to negotiate further? Who knows, maybe they bluffed you out of an extra $500? With any dealer who is willing to "wheel and deal," you never know where you truly stand. That goes for any product.

I don't like negotiating the price of the tubs, and in my store we quite simply don't. I find it very dishonest to present one price, just to sell the tub at a lower price to try to build imaginary value.

If you tried that tactic in my store, I would have congratulated you on the price you were quoted and wished you luck with your purchase. If you had questions regarding the tub while you were in the store, or were interested in purchasing product for the tub, I would try to be as helpful as possible. If you required any service under warranty, I would politely direct you to the dealership where you bought the tub.  

This is not a charity business, and things that cost the business money, such as warranty work, would not be spent on a customer who chose to purchase elsewhere.

I have gained countless customer from this method, and probably lost just as many because I wouldn't play their game. That's fine by me.

The thing I do dislike is a blanketing statement that calls me less than honorable. It is not only rude it is also a blatant lie, but you have decided you are confortable with being deceitful. So be it.

As for a monopolistic industry, it is very simple, what you sell you need to service, if necessary. As an HONORABLE dealer, I will not sell to somebody who will receive less than top quality service because of how far away they are. Likewise if a dealer sells a tub to someone closer to me, I will expect them to hold up their end of the bargain and take care of their customr.
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: J._McD on May 21, 2005, 11:28:07 am
“Honor?  LOL. “
I will leave this point untouched anything said will only infuriate you. :-X

Contraire to your personal opinion, you statement lacks knowledge or fact.   :-/
“When virtually every SPA manufacturer and their dealers take a monopoly-like approach to their sales,”  In spite of the Fair Trade Act put in place to protect people such as your self, you could hardly consider the spa industry or the dealers in it to be in anyway monopolistic. With over 140 manufacturers and more than 600 dealers representing only one manufacturer, you're talking about more than 30,000 dealers, how could you ever consider this a situation in which one company controls an industry or is the only provider of a product or service?

“their are virtually no reliable consumer org reviews or comparison price info you must ask where is the honor in the SPA industry?”

Everything we read, from the daily newspaper to the Inquirer is a BIASED point of view.  Your observation represents an opportunity for you to fill this void and make a difference in this world.  I would encourage you seize this opportunity and develop that organizational balance.  In the meantime, this open forum is doing a GREAT job of sharing information and it is well balanced with honesty and integrity from consumers, dealers and manufacturers.  

If you have an open mind and a quest to be informed, read this thread throughout and then tell me how monopolistic this industry is.

”Additionally, I have been to numerous boards like this.   You can tell that they do have some good real consumer info.   However, you can also tell that they are loaded with propaganda and intentional disinformation from I wonder who.   Folks that are associated with these HONORABLE dealers  Oor is it those dishonorable dealers and manufacturers.”  

“intentional disinformation”, how dare you, look in the mirror and read the first word of your post, LIE.

”I will fight fire with fire.   You be honorable and pay the extra $$$s.   I'll take the lower price and live the fact that I was less than honorable in getting a local SPA dealer to sell me a SPA at a fair market price.”

He sold you a spa for what he was willing to take for the spa, Lucky You, Lucky Him.  But, keep in mind, there is a wide mix of honest consumers and honest dealers here trying to help each other, as you can understand, occasionally a dishonest one will work their way in, but they don’t stay long, because they don’t mix well with the honest people looking to share meaningful information.


“SPAs are long over due for a consumer reports to do a full review.”

Participants in this board would all agree, even the dealers, thank you for bringing this to our attention.  Maybe you can give us some insight.  What has made you so angry and bitter calling for such an attitude or tactics? ???
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: masterge on May 21, 2005, 11:50:55 am
Yep, I don't know if I could have squeezed another 500 or so.   But I do know that I got the price into my value window.   It is a large dealership with a large service department.   I was willing to pay a little more for that service.

I do wish that they were a one price dealership that you could trust.    They played me a little, so I played them a little.   Would rather not have had to play the game that way, but when the industry or a dealer sets up the game, both the customer and provider of goods will play (or should play) to get the best advantage.

Thanks for your input.   I wish the dealer I dealt with had a business ethos more like your's.
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: masterge on May 21, 2005, 12:00:32 pm
Quote
Oh I guess the Ford, GM, Toyota guys advertising $6000 rebates ,Cash for your trade etc etc.......... is OK?  ::) ::) ::) ::)

Go to GM and PUSH THE BUTTON AT THE DEALER  ::)  Marketing whats the CRIME ?!!!!! retail is FULL OF SNAKES!!!



Big Difference with the car dealers.   I can go to Edmunds, KBB, and a bunch of other places to find price comparisons and get pretty darn close to what the deal invoice should be on the car I want.    I can also go to a bunch of consumer review sites and find independent and 3rd party reviews of the same cars.     I will know what I am buying and what I should be paying.   When you can do this for SPAs, come back and see me and I will entertain you marketing justification argument.
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: Soakin on May 21, 2005, 01:26:30 pm
Masterge,

I am not a dealer, but I do take offense to your blanket indictments of the spa industry, especially on this website.  Most of the dealers that post on this site are offering their expertise to strangers that will likely never visit one of their stores, much less put a dollar in their pocket.  I, for one, appreciate the fact that they take the time to share their knowledge with us, and that most of them do their best to do so in an unbiased fashion.  Of course the occasional goofball shows up, putting out propaganda.  Those posters are usually identified quickly and they leave after a few posts, as I expect you will.  While I know none of the dealers who post here on a regular basis personally, I would expect to find that they are honorable, fair businesspeople.

I manage a business that requires me to deal with a lot of vendors.  I often have to negotiate, but I usually find that I am much better off dealing with someone who treats me fairly from the beginning, than a dealer that has a starting price much higher than I am willing to pay and have to "win" a negotiation with.  It seems those transactions often have something come up that makes the "bargain" cost as much as the deal that was reasonable from the beginning.  The dealers who do business in a manner that makes me feel comfortable get the lion's share of my business.

As far as your purchasing/negotiation strategy, if you can live with it, fine... but don't expect others to congratulate you on a stated strategy that starts with "lie".  You have placed a dollar value on your integrity, and it sounds pretty low to me.  If you had asked for advice prior to your purchase, I would have suggested you find another dealer, since you felt this one's pricing was unreasonable.  As with any industry, there are many strategies that a dealer can pursue.  You state that this is a large dealer with a good service department.  Since you compared his price to others out of your area, how do you know if they also provide quality service, large inventories and the like.  Their cost structure may be much different, and both prices might be "fair" if all things are considered.  Given your contempt for your dealer and the industry, why not just go down the road?

Enjoy your spa, but if you have trouble, I hope you have the pride to find a solution without the help of the people you have maligned here.

My Saturday sermon :)!
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: Soakin on May 21, 2005, 02:27:09 pm
Quote
Masterge I saved you some time,


So good WE all needed to read it, AGAIN? ???

I'm obviously a little cranky today, but this bashing is rubbing me the wrong way.  These complaints have some basis, but do we need to SHOUT?

Consumers already have the power.  If we don't like the way something is sold, don't buy it -- or buy from someone who treats you fairly!  The market will sort it out, and the more consumer-friendly manufacturers and dealers will thrive.   However, if you just complain about them, why would things change?
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: J._McD on May 21, 2005, 03:14:37 pm
Quote
Masterge,

I am not a dealer, but I do take offense to your blanket indictments of the spa industry, especially on this website.  Most of the dealers that post on this site are offering their expertise to strangers that will likely never visit one of their stores, much less put a dollar in their pocket.  I, for one, appreciate the fact that they take the time to share their knowledge with us, and that most of them do their best to do so in an unbiased fashion.  Of course the occasional goofball shows up, putting out propaganda.  Those posters are usually identified quickly and they leave after a few posts, as I expect you will.  While I know none of the dealers who post here on a regular basis personally, I would expect to find that they are honorable, fair businesspeople.

My Saturday sermon :)!


Soakin, We dealers thank you for your kind words and respect.  
:)
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: Mendocino101 on May 21, 2005, 03:29:45 pm
Yes....Thank You Soakin....I think dealers also learn from the consumers here as well.... :)
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: windsurfdog on May 22, 2005, 07:47:51 am
THE END.    (please.....please.....please..... :))
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: Soakin on December 17, 2005, 02:38:19 am
Quote
Masterge,

I am not a dealer, but I do take offense to your blanket indictments of the spa industry, especially on this website.  Most of the dealers that post on this site are offering their expertise to strangers that will likely never visit one of their stores, much less put a dollar in their pocket.  I, for one, appreciate the fact that they take the time to share their knowledge with us, and that most of them do their best to do so in an unbiased fashion.  Of course the occasional goofball shows up, putting out propaganda.  Those posters are usually identified quickly and they leave after a few posts, as I expect you will.  While I know none of the dealers who post here on a regular basis personally, I would expect to find that they are honorable, fair businesspeople....
Also retracted, most of the dealers I was referring to don't post here very much anymore.
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: HotTubMan on December 17, 2005, 08:51:13 am
Quote
Also retracted, most of the dealers I was referring to don't post here very much anymore.

WOW. You really are upset, to go looking back that far only to "retract" your statement. Harsh.
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: blizzard on December 17, 2005, 09:07:05 am
Some of the discussions here remind me of a bone with a pack of wild hungry dogs surrounding it. It's not a pretty site. :o ;D
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: Soakin on December 17, 2005, 11:01:47 am
Quote
WOW. You really are upset...

Actually, I'm not upset, just disappointed.  When the other thread with Mendo got out of hand, I remembered making this post, and how differently I felt then.  Interesting to note who responded back then.

HTM, while you were away, Chas, Stuart, SpaHappy, and some of the other dealers that made this such a good place to come, either got busy, lost interest or got frustrated and haven't been helping consumers sort through issues like they used to.  Consumers like Bill Stevenson, WSD, Vinny, and Drewski who I used to enjoy reading also seem to not be around as much.  IMO the void has been filled with stay-at-home websurfers, and salesmen with empty stores, entertaining themselves with social conversation, risque pictures and right-wing drivel.  Combine that with "new school" dealers who feel their brand is the answer to any question, and aren't shy about bashing others, and this place is just different than the one I first joined.  Newbies asking for assistance and information can wait days before anyone offers to help.   You, SpaTech TUO, JMcD, and a few other "good guys/gals" (my apologies to those I didn't mention) still come around from time to time, but the tone has changed.  If a biased statement is questioned, the thread quickly escalates to attack mode, and wmccall can't be around to police everything.

I had decided that rather than just complain about it, I would try to nudge things back on track.  Obviously, what I consider a nudge, others feel is a push. :) When  I end up provoking one of the people I had considered one of  the good guys into an attack by asking if a bias was showing through, I know it is time for me to go.

I wish everyone here a happy holiday season and a prosperous 2006.
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: East_TX_Spa on December 17, 2005, 12:47:52 pm
Amen!

Oh yeah, I just got ALL of my files transferred to my new computer so I can start participating on this fine board again and continue to help folks with their spa questions.  One or two misguided people on here would like things to quietly revolve around total alkalinity and TDS and whatnot.   You know, spas are fun, owning them is fun, selling them is great fun, talking about them can be fun as well as informative.

Ho Ho Ho

Terminator
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: windsurfdog on December 17, 2005, 12:54:32 pm
Quote
THE END.    (please.....please.....please..... :))

THE END.    (please.....please.....please..... :))  (One more time, with feeling....)
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: LtDan on December 18, 2005, 05:45:41 pm
Quote
THE END.    (please.....please.....please..... :))  (One more time, with feeling....)


Oh c'mon, lets wait to see what all the salesman with empty stores have to say!
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: Spatech_tuo on December 19, 2005, 12:46:05 am
Quote

Oh c'mon, lets wait to see what all the salesman with empty stores have to say!


I'm not a salesman, but since you brough it back up, it'll only end when Master stops their phony road show sales practice. OK, I'm done with this subject too. Anyone else?
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: East_TX_Spa on December 19, 2005, 10:57:17 am
Quote

Oh c'mon, lets wait to see what all the salesman with empty stores have to say!

For some reason, I got the strange feeling that soakin was alluding to me.  He's right about one thing, my store is almost empty....from selling out of product.  I've made the Century Club for the 3rd consecutive year, so it just goes to show that the true producers of this world are maybe, just maybe, talented enough to be multi-faceted and have a good time while turning a profit. :)

Terminator
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: salesdvl on December 19, 2005, 12:52:17 pm
The point has nothing to do with coming here or any other website and not having fun.  The point is to be able to come here and not have to endure the continuous ramblings that are obvious regurgitated marketing jargon.  Obvious, that is to those of us that have sold Watkins stuff before.  To others it could be construde to be fact and it isnt.  When a poster asked "What should I be looking for when I shop for a spa" a while back your first response was "100% no bypass filtration".  Come on, dude.  People come here for quality information.  Most of us that have been in the spa business for a long time answer with the "comfort, features, things that are important to you....etc..."  Just tone down the arrogance.  Many of us are out here doing the same thing.  Just because you happen to sell Watkins today doesnt mean that every other brand is crap.  It is great that you believe in your product, but the people here are probably not going to walk into your store so relax.  I suspect that if you found yourself taking another position with a different brand as I have you would realize just what is really out there in our industry.  And believe me, being in a store does not allow for objective views of the industry.
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: Steve on December 19, 2005, 02:36:35 pm
WOW...well written. Nothing against East_TX_Spa personally but this post carries a great deal of thought in general I find.

The last sentence is OH SO TRUE and it hasn't been put better IMO!

Steve
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: Anglia67 on December 19, 2005, 02:41:17 pm
Amen Soakin....I think "some" of them are finally getting it, maybe,perhaps the picture posting and grand standing may stop, and we can get much needed info that this banal board has become, it seems that when someone  mentions any other brands but what the few , you mention sell, the gates of hell open up.
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: Guzz on December 19, 2005, 02:54:27 pm
I have yet to see the "gates of hell" on this forum, now there is another spa forum that is the gates of hell, but thats another subject. In Terms defence ( although i'm sure he does'nt need it) I find his posts to be very helpfull and unbiased, i beleive we are all here to gain something, I have gained a lot of insight into what people are really looking for when spa shopping, and continue to learn in other ways also on a daily basis. I  think that without  some of Terms imput this forum would be banal
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: drewstar on December 19, 2005, 03:02:24 pm
Quote
Amen Soakin....I think "some" of them are finally getting it, maybe,perhaps the picture posting and grand standing may stop, and we can get much needed info that this banal board has become, it seems that when someone  mentions any other brands but what the few , you mention sell, the gates of hell open up.



huh?  picture posting is bad?

Grandstanding?  

Honestly, if you feel there is a problem, contribute and speak up then and there. Its a public forum.  Don't sit back and say nothing and the later whine about vague things.

Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: Guzz on December 19, 2005, 03:09:39 pm
Quote


huh?  picture posting is bad?

Grandstanding?  

Honestly, if you feel there is a problem, contribute and speak up then and there. Its a public forum.  Don't sit back and say nothing and the later whine about vague things.

 

My sentiments exactly.
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: Vinny on December 19, 2005, 04:48:34 pm
Actually what Soakin, salesdvl and  Anglia67 are saying IS TRUE!

This board has degraded to hawking vs helping.

As far as what drewstar and Guzz are saying - it's a free forum and we all come here for whatever reason.
Who really has the time or energy to argue with someone who is completely convinced that their piece of crap their selling is better than my piece of crap! I certainly don't - so I decided not to participate - I'm back, but not in the same way. I read things and shake my head and laugh at the sales dribble that comes out.

I came here for help if and when my tub has problems. AND hopefully help someone who is or may become in a similar situation.

It certainly is not the same forum as it was a year ago!

Vinny

PS:  On the way home from work, I realized that one of the issues that Soakin had was with Mendo - I personally don't have any issues with Mendo!
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: East_TX_Spa on December 19, 2005, 04:56:36 pm
I agree that everyone on here is biased to some extent, a few more so than others.  It is obvious in the way they interact and will eventually come out if given the opportunity.

I have my biases as well.  When I read some of the disinformation that's tossed about, I confront it and challenge it.  I expect anyone to challenge me if I am less than accurate about anything I state.  I have wrongly mispoken once or twice on here, was called on it, realized and admitted my mistake, and apologized.  If someone has a problem with me, I'm sorry for you.  I don't mean to hurt your feelings.  But Jiminy Cricket, don't cry about it.  Stand up for yourself and disprove anything I've said on this board, if you can.

Terminator
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: salesdvl on December 19, 2005, 05:17:02 pm
So, I was talkin to the wall the other day.....
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: Anglia67 on December 19, 2005, 06:30:49 pm
I am not saying that picture posting is bad, I enjoy looking at all the creative ways that people have added spas to there homes and backyards. I am not interested in all the big busted ladies, tools used in sales events and for dealer parties. I do not have to look at them, and dont.
And by the way Drew, I am not whining, as you so put it, I gave my opinion.It is posts like yours that probaly turn other people away.
Only if walls could talk....... ;D
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: drewdad on December 19, 2005, 11:33:32 pm
hows that old saying go about not pleasing some people all the time ....? I have surfed and posted for a while, and have learned alot, laughed alot, and just skipped over some stuff.
I am, but a lowly consumer, who bought a caldera almost a year ago, due in part to things I learned here. I am not a dealer, or any sort of "industry insider".

I will agree that the temperment of this forum has changed oveer the last several months, and that is not inherently a bad thing. when I say I made my decision IN PART from what I learned here, I mean exactly that. for the most part we are strangers, all over the country, posting semi anonymous posts and answers. no offense intended to anyone here, but before dropping a large chunk of $ on anything, I will check into any claims, made by anyone.......
I really can't imagine a newbie posting what the best tub out there, and running out to buy "that one". if we have enough $ to buy a tub, hopefully we have acquired a brain cell or 2 along the way ;) ;D

that being said, I for one like most of the pics of the day( thanks term), and the occasional joke/ humor. if you dont care for them, dont read it....drewski's story of locking himself out of the house at night in only his birthday suit is priceless ;D ;D, and 1 of my fav stories....
there are several hundred pages of posts and a search engine to research a single topic if needed, so search away.....
I personally own a hot tub (this my third), and view it as a way of life, relaxed, casual and fun (sometimes a bit irreverent fun, but still funny).
stupid arrogant people will typically always be just that....... and even some of the good guys that pass thru here may have an occasional attack of stupid, but it can be cured.

this is an open forum after all...... live and let live,( post and let post?)and take most of what you read with a grain of salt.....
as the romans used to say..... veni. veci, lavi?? to much soap in the guest suit..... ;D ;D
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: Steve on December 19, 2005, 11:53:51 pm
Awesome post drewdad!! Very well written!

Steve

Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: stuart on December 20, 2005, 12:52:16 am
Wow!

I was just breezing through and opened this topic only to find that it changes more than Sybil playing hide and seek... :o 8)

What were you talking about again ??? ???

I don't even recognize many of the names posting now days.
     
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: obi wan on December 20, 2005, 08:46:52 am
allow me to take credit where due....drewdad is my alter ego.... ;) ;)
there has been a change on the forum. now you have to be registered to read the posts. I checked the box keep me logged on many, many months ago, and then promptly forgot the log on ID and password I used :'( :'( some how i got logged off, so I had to create a new identity so i could look at my own profile to get my user name, to have the top notch ;) administrators email me my own passwword!
what an adventure! ;D ;D
but at least all is well with the force.... obi wan is back
dont forget, to "live long and prosper", one should soak long and often.....
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Sho
Post by: drewstar on December 20, 2005, 09:03:19 am
Quote
I am not saying that picture posting is bad, I enjoy looking at all the creative ways that people have added spas to there homes and backyards. I am not interested in all the big busted ladies, tools used in sales events and for dealer parties. I do not have to look at them, and dont.
And by the way Drew, I am not whining, as you so put it, I gave my opinion.It is posts like yours that probaly turn other people away.
Only if walls could talk....... ;D


It certainly did indeed sound like you felt the picture posting was bad, since you commented that you prefered it to stop.  

YOu never explained what you ment by "Grandstanding"

As far as pics go, I enjoy looking at the bathers, the partys, and females in  bathing suits. Nothing here has been posted that isn't not of the same level of What is in some spa brouchures or what's on TV in prime tiem.  Any how,  If you asked me, I'd prefer not to see pics of your kids, but to each it's own.  But I don't complain, I just skip over it, because it's an open forum and there is at times a high S/N ratio, you need to take everything with a grain of salt.

I don't understand  your comment that "if walls could talk"
What does that mean? If you have something to say, then please speak up, because wall's don't talk. ???

By the way,  What type of tub do you own? Where do you live? What do you like about Hot tubs? What brings you to this  forum. You've been a member since  Augusts, and have made only a few commments?

In your other post, you mentioned that you didn't feel the appropriaite info wasn't being posted. If you feel there are topics that should be discussed, open a topic. If there are questions that you  need answers to, then ask.  

If someone posts a pic you don't like, or has a BS discusiion you don't like, you have the right attitute: skip over it.  That's why I don't understand your negative opinion.


Anyhow, I have to laugh, as I think most of the posts are by users like me, (Ive onewed a couple of tubs and contiune to make mistakes, I've learned a lot from my screw ups...) I'm just trying to share what that have learned, ask questions, post some answers based on what I do, hoping others will contribute and point out things that could be improved upon and share thier experinces. You know....contribute.

This isn't a paid for forum, and any replies on from people doing so out of an effort to help. If you feel they're selling a product and lying, then as Term said,  Call him on it.

Anyhow,  if you have a problem with me or another posting I do think you should take it up with them directly and not whine about it in a post.  

Offer suggestions to improve.  Particpate.  Ask questions. Share yoru experinces.

don't do a "no thanks, I'll just  B and moan if I don't like it"


I call em as I see em.

Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: salesdvl on December 20, 2005, 10:03:04 am
So, once again it has turned in a direction not originally intended.  The point, for me, has always been the attitude that is projected when someone posts something against HS (or whomever- but mostly HS).  Show pride in your product but leave the arrogance at your homepage.

The following is the post that bothered me.  How can you say that you are giving good, legitmate, objective advice when you post that someone is an idiot for saying they feel a certain brand is better than HS.

bhawes
 Re: LA Spa Heet
Dec 13th, 2005, 10:47am »  

I  think LA Spas is  great Hot tub even better than Hot Springs and Sundance. It's seems after wet testing that Hot Springs is really overrated not enough jets and very low power. The price for the Hot Springs is only playing for the name while, LA Spas can compete any day with Hot Springs and Sundance.  
« Last Edit: Dec 13th, 2005, 11:28am by bhawes »

East_TX_Spa
Dec 14th, 2005, 7:12pm »  
No, just pointing out how pointless it is to make a claim like bhawes did.  It serves no useful purpose.  Spaman was doing the same.

Terminator



Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: LtDan on December 20, 2005, 10:05:00 am
I bet Dad is gonna get mad soon...
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: windsurfdog on December 20, 2005, 11:08:10 am
Straight from the gates of internet Hell it comes...........

"Night of the Walking Thread"......the thread that WILL NOT DIE!!!!
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: marks on December 20, 2005, 11:23:30 am
I tried to hold my tongue and mind my own business but here goes.

I am a Hot Tub consumer and have nothing to do with the hot tub retail end.  I have been using this site for about 5 months and think it is a great resource.  Did it help me decide on what tub to buy? No.  This site did help me understand how take care of my water chemistry.  I would not have switched to N2 and Dichlor without this sites help.  Also I found out about Doc site (rhtubs.com) to buy chemicals from.  What do Terms picture of the day hurt? Nothing and they are fun.  I also enjoy pictures of other people’s installations.  Anyway, salesdvl I think you are off base on this one.

Vinny,

I thought we have had some good exchanges in the past and have appreciated your help.  I hope you continue to post in the future.
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: obi wan on December 20, 2005, 11:53:58 am
DONT MAKE ME TURN THIS POST AROUND !! ;) ;)
you kids stop bickering....
seriously though.... let me see if I have this right. if term says HS is the best, he's being an arrogant schmuck. when bhawes says la sps are best, thats fine. when term says its a pointless post( he didn't call anybody an idiot, BTW) term is still the schmuck?????
what anyone believes to be a good or even greatest spa, is fine for them. more power to them, buy it and enjoy......

there are quite a few great spas. there is no #1 best brand, just like there is no #1 brand of car, or microwave, computer, etc....
it WAS a pointless post, as there was no quantifying info... no model, price, size, long term reliability record etc......
for what it's woreth, I have been on this board for about a year now, and I see much more of the HS critsism from others, than the other way around....
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: salesdvl on December 20, 2005, 12:55:46 pm
I'm using English so it should be easy to understand...

Let me sum up.  Again.

The pics are fine.  I agree, If you dont want to look then dont click on that thread.

The word "idiot" was in fact not used.  I stand corrected.  My issue was telling someone that their opinion was pointless.  It is only "pointless" to be closeminded and condescending.

The "talkin to the wall" comment comes from the inability to get ones point to be understood ie "I feel like I'm talkin to the wall."

Opinions do not have to have "quantifying info" in order to be valid.  "I like baseball."  doesnt have to be " I like baseball because I played on the little league and hit a homerun and batted .300 and... "

Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: Spatech_tuo on December 20, 2005, 01:12:13 pm
Quote
The following is the post that bothered me.  How can you say that you are giving good, legitmate, objective advice when you post that someone is an idiot for saying they feel a certain brand is better than HS.

bhawes
  Re: LA Spa Heet
Dec 13th, 2005, 10:47am »  

I  think LA Spas is  great Hot tub even better than Hot Springs and Sundance. It's seems after wet testing that Hot Springs is really overrated not enough jets and very low power. The price for the Hot Springs is only playing for the name while, LA Spas can compete any day with Hot Springs and Sundance.  



The post by BHawes did indeed get things going around here but I personally found that post to be the issue. My original response below to his/her post showed what I thought of the method of placing once's own product high while stepping on another's to elevate it even higher.

I guess what it comes down to is if you say "my son is really smart and I'm really proud of him" that's great. You don't need to follow it up with "and he's much smarter than the kid down the street who everyone thinks is smart but I know my son is smarter".

I think BHawes could have told us all how impressed he/she was without having to put down other spas. It's no different than when we bash delears for knocking others products in their sales presentation rather than selling on the merits of their own brand.
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: East_TX_Spa on December 20, 2005, 01:13:51 pm
Quote
When a poster asked "What should I be looking for when I shop for a spa" a while back your first response was "100% no bypass filtration".  Come on, dude.  People come here for quality information.


BTW, here's that other thread you were looking for.  I stand by everything I said in it.

http://www.whatsthebest-hottub.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=wtb-hottub;action=display;num=1131050863;start=2

Terminator
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: drewstar on December 20, 2005, 01:14:41 pm
I don't like baseball.
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: salesdvl on December 20, 2005, 01:23:03 pm
Quote

BTW, here's that other thread you were looking for.  I stand by everything I said in it.

http://www.whatsthebest-hottub.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=wtb-hottub;action=display;num=1131050863;start=2

Terminator


I stand corrected on that example.  Sorry.
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: East_TX_Spa on December 20, 2005, 01:25:23 pm
Quote

I stand corrected on that example.  Sorry.

For goodness' sake, don't worry about it.  We are all friends here just trying to help out.  It's Christmas for crying out loud!  Peace on Earth, good will towards all...

Terminator
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: salesdvl on December 20, 2005, 01:27:55 pm
Quote

...My original response below to his/her post showed what I thought of the method of placing once's own product high while stepping on another's to elevate it even higher.


I dont see anything wrong with stating an opinion.  I guess it's just a matter of how it's presented.
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: East_TX_Spa on December 20, 2005, 01:43:57 pm
For those interested, salesdvl and I settled our differences out back in the alley.  I had him in a guillotine choke when he pulled the old "monkey snatches the peach" move on me and we called it a draw.  And now we're in the online spa drinking virtual Shiner Bock and toasting our good fortunes.

Terminator
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: salesdvl on December 20, 2005, 02:02:23 pm
huh?

 I dont know anything about monkeys and peaches but ....he promised not to pick on the little boy that always picks his nose at recess as much and I promised to stop criticizing the way he does it as much.
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: Spatech_tuo on December 20, 2005, 02:10:49 pm
Quote

I dont see anything wrong with stating an opinion.  I guess it's just a matter of how it's presented.


Exactly, BHawes ws entitled to an opinion but it was not presented well IMO so I can understand why Terminator made a sarcastic post where he cut/pasted (I've used that same method in the past when I rolled my eyes at a post). I don't think the end of the world is near and I thnk we can all move on from this.
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: East_TX_Spa on December 20, 2005, 02:13:27 pm
Quote
huh?

  I dont know anything about monkeys and peaches but ....he promised not to pick on the little boy that always picks his nose at recess as much and I promised to stop criticizing the way he does it as mcuh.


http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/monkeystealspeach.jpg

Monkey Steals Peach, sorry about the wrong terminology.

Terminator
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: windsurfdog on December 20, 2005, 04:36:27 pm
Wow........monkeys grabbing peaches......OOWWWW.......and drewstar hates baseball (still LMAO over that one).......now let's all take a nice deep breath......now exhale......now count to 10......now grab a peach........HEY, NOT THOSE!!!!

OK, Term and Salesy have kissed and made up.......SHINERBOCK FOR ALL!!!  (...and to all a good night) 8)

(thread.....RIP)
Title: Re: The Great Pool and Spa Show
Post by: Anoroc on December 20, 2005, 04:39:55 pm
Hey all, I am a new poster of only a couple of months and I must say that I have learned a lot and laughed even more.  

It is human nature to take pride in something even if it is an object like a hot tub.  Good old fashion debate is a good thing and allows for the best ideas and opinions to float to the top.

I must say however, some of the discussions that turn personal will discourage newbie’s from participating.  I think it is important to know when to just agree to disagree.

Let’s not run the risk of scaring members away just because we feel we must have the last word.  I wonder how many are reconsidering this forum even as I send this.

Rick