Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: doriley on December 18, 2005, 10:47:54 am
-
:(I have a Hydro Spa hot tub and am experiencing very high electrical utilization. These are the actual electrical utilization readings in kWh since January 2005:
Feb/Mar Apr/May June/July Aug/Sep Oct/Nov
1596 1151 2994 2746 3056
The hot tub was started at the beginning of the June/July cycle. Note the increase in utilization. Originally I thought it was due to the central air system, however notice the Oct/Nov reading when we were not using A/C.
I measured my utilization with and without the tub running over a period of time and determined that the tub was using about 20 kWh per day or almost 1200 during a 2 month billing cycle. That is almost 2/3 of what the entire house uses in that period. I live in Southern NY State.
I was forced to empty it and disconnect it for the winter. Is there any advice you can give me to remedy this. This utilization is way out of range of any thing I have read about hot tub energy use.
Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks.
Dave
-
Does your bill tell you what you pay for kwh?
-
Energy cost is .08988 per kWh. That doesn't include taxes or delivery charges. Total bill last time came to 379.28 for 2 months or about 190.00 per month. With all the price fluctuations and other charges I figure that looking at utilization is the easiest way to determine the impact the spa is having.
Dave
-
Doriley,
We work on Hydro Spas frequently. When this brand goes down in thew winter, we do have to rush there quickly, due to their version of the Thermo Pane Insulation method,before the pipes freeze,as it really lacks insulation. They spray the shell with just a 1/8 of an inch of insulation, then the perimeter cabinet has a 1/4" foil style wrap energy barrier, to top it off the cabinet panels are thin and loose. I find that the cold air really penetrates this method very quickly. While the pump motors do provide some heat, it is just not enough to hold back the cold temperatures, blowing through a very loose fitting cabinet and foil wrap. Your pump probably cycles like crazy, on and off frequently, with very little time between cycles. Many folks have added their own insulation, like Pink Owens Corning House Insualtion, which can be purchased from Home Depot. It would be easy to remove your cabinet panels, and hand layer the Owens Corning around your spas shell and plumbing. Do not surround the pump or equipment, as those components do need to breathe and there will be some benefit from the motors heat. Anything will help. It is a shame that you were forced to drain the spa during the real spa season, the winter. Hopefully, you will consider adding some insulation and you will be back in hot water soon. My other concern, was that you stated the spa was drained. I know you are in a cold envirement, did you properly winterize your hot tub or just drain it out? By properly winterizing, I mean were all of the plumbing lines blown out? Blown from all of the jet fittings with a compressor or shop vac on blow mode? The jets, skimmer, pumps, heater and air blower all need to be blown clear of all water. When a spa is emptied, typically about 30 gallons of water remains the tubs equipment and plumbing lines. If it was not blown out, consider doing it quickly or restarting the spa, to avoid damage. If you have questions, please contact or post. Goodluck. Dave.
-
Hey NJDave,
I was going to respond to doriley but realized that it's a 2 month bill.
My Artesian Cayman uses about 400 KWH/ month in Summer and it seems about 600 KWH/ month for Nov bill. I got about 1 1/2 months of water usage before changing the water in the summer and Nov's bill had a water change on it. These aren't exact but estimates. As I have said in the past, I live around Trenton, so for me 1200 KWH usage is about right (winter) or slightly high (summer). Of course I used the tub almost every day because it was new and I know that has a bearing on the cost to run.
What's the average KWH usage for Artesian Island for our area? I pay $0.14 per KWH total for about $84.00 or about 2.80 a day based on my Nov bill. Of course a water change is a electrical usage nightmare (5.5 kw heater for approx 10 hours).
I'm not doubting the fact that insulation will help but now I am curious about my tub.
Vinny
-
Doriley,
Many folks have added their own insulation, like Pink Owens Corning House Insualtion, which can be purchased from Home Depot. It would be easy to remove your cabinet panels, and hand layer the Owens Corning around your spas shell and plumbing. Do not surround the pump or equipment, as those components do need to breathe and there will be some benefit from the motors heat. Anything will help.
IF you have an air blower on your spa, I would strongly advise against "fiberglass" insulation. The intake for the blower is from within the cabinet and air borne bits of fiberglass can be sucked up by the blower and injected into the water. This could be a very big problem as it sticks to the bodies that are in the water.
If you are going to add insulation, get some "spray foam" insulation like the spa companies use. Call some of the insulation companies in your area they will know what you are looking for. However, this is a warm weather job and spray foam in not inexpensive, but it is the best way to insulate to "hold the heat in".
-
Thanks for all the advise. The insulation inefficiency is consistent with some other information I obtained. Also my electrical utilization with the Spa and A/C was lower in the summer and higher as the weather started getting colder without the A/C running. I will wait until the summer to do it and check with some insulating companies. Good point about the air intake on the blower.
Vinny from NJ. I think you may have a similar problem with your spa. I'd consider doing the same thing I may have to do.
I did winterize the Spa according to directions. I blew out the jets with a vaccuum through the skimmer. I also opened and drained the manifold where all the water hoses distribute water to the jets. That was the lowest point in the spa.
Thanks again.
Dave
Dave
-
But, did you blow out the air channel or the air injectors, they too hold water?
-
I have a question is it a Hydro spa or a Hydro POOL spa...I believe there are 2 company's with similar names. I thought Hydro spas were often sold at stores like Costco or a Home Depot ...Please share with us if is this your case as it has often been mentioned here that high energy use is one big down side to buying that type of spa.....If this is not what you have....than forgive me for even asking....
-
Hey Vinny,
With PSEG in South Jersey, we are paying KWh charges of $0.053833333, probably about what you are paying in the Trenton area. Which is lower than .08988 that doriley is paying for usage. You were using the spa almost daily, so that will increase cost, along with being exposed to the cold air, when the cover is off. But, the $80. dollars seems a bit high for you. Vinny, do you have the Grand Cayman or Bahama? I am waiting for my 2006 Island Series to arrive, they have been retooled for the new year. I should have them in a couple weeks. They really look great. I'll pass along a photo. Dave.
-
Thanks for all the advise. The insulation inefficiency is consistent with some other information I obtained.
Vinny from NJ. I think you may have a similar problem with your spa. I'd consider doing the same thing I may have to do.
Dave after answering you, I did some calculations and if they're correct my numbers don't seam too unreasonable.
600 KWH usage
- 55 KWH heating fresh water for 10 hours
______
645 KWH OR
21.5 KWH per day with 30 Day Billing cycle
- 3.5 KWH per day for 24 hour circ pump (240V x 0.6A x 24hours)
_______
18 KWH per day to heat with a 5.5 KWH heater or 3.27 hours (approx 7 heating cycles- see below) heating per day.
But the unit doesn't just heat - it has 2 - 6 BHP and 1 - 3 BHP pumps and if you devide the BHP by 2 for continuous HP then you have 7.5 HP and it's appox 750 W (I think this is correct) per HP for a total of 5.6 KW per hour (Although I don't use it every night). Assuming you have the pumps on an hour at a time that's down to 12.4 KWH a day to heat. That's 2.54 hours a day to maintain heat in 400 gallons of water. My tub heats at about 4 F per hour and I notice it drops 1 F below setpoint before it starts heating and then it heats to 1 F above setpoint, so that's approximately 30 minutes of heater on time. If I multiply 2.50 hours by 60 minutes and devide by 30 minutes per heating cycle that's 5 heating cycles a day to maintain water. None of this includes the hour a week I keep the cover open as I due my Sat chemical ritual .
Any of my figures can be off. I don't have my tub directly metered so my figures are estimates, I look at last year's bill and see the KWH there and estimate. As has been said in the past - without a metered tub anything can be happening. Are 5 or 7 heating cycles too much for a 101 F tub outside in 14, 25 or 32 F weather? I truely don't know!
As for adding insulation, my tub's full foamed so I can't. I do know that the weakest link besides the equipment bay (all you TP people this is NOT up for discussion ;D) is it's cover. Since it's a brand new tub, I can't justify buying a new cover but will get a higher quality one when it goes!
Vinny
-
Hey Vinny,
With PSEG in South Jersey, we are paying KWh charges of $0.053833333, probably about what you are paying in the Trenton area. Which is lower than .08988 that doriley is paying for usage. You were using the spa almost daily, so that will increase cost, along with being exposed to the cold air, when the cover is off. But, the $80. dollars seems a bit high for you. Vinny, do you have the Grand Cayman or Bahama? I am waiting for my 2006 Island Series to arrive, they have been retooled for the new year. I should have them in a couple weeks. They really look great. I'll pass along a photo. Dave.
I pay a total of about $0.14 per KWH Total for supply and delivery (they're about even as to costs).
I have the Cayman with the 24 hour circ pump. I know in 2005 they've upped the size of the pump so it may not run at the stated 0.6A as the smaller pump did. Since my tub's not metered alone - it's only an estimate, but see my calcs.
I saw the 2006 models, they're on the Artesian website. For me the jury's still deliberating, I think the foot jets aren't serving the pupose as they did in the 2005 and I see they put some jets on the bottom of the deeper neck seat. They do have sleeker lines though.
-
doriley,
Mendocino was curious if you were speaking of Hydro Spas(Florida) or Hydro Pool Spas(Canada). I was assuming you were speaking of Hydro Spas. Like J._McD stated when adding Owens Insualtion, avoid getting too close to the opening of the blower or other components. Actually, Hydro Spas insulated the floor of their spas with pink insulation, up to about 3 years ago.Most Hydro Spas are equipped with a air blower, as also stated make sure the air blower line was blown out also. If not, the air injectors will hold water also. The air blower air injectors can be blown out by powering up the spa for 30 seconds and then pushing the button for the air blower, water will shoot ablout 4' straight up, until the lines is clear of water. When we are done winterizing spas, we wrap the spas with a 6 mil Balck Poly Plastic, right around the spa and spa cover. You can tie the plastic or wrap that with shrink wrap. This will keep any rain or snow from entering the spa. Hydro Spas are sold heavily through the Internet from many sellers, local dealers and up to recently to Gulf Coast Spas. Gulf Coast Spas were made by Hydro Spas, for Gulf Coast. Now Gulf Coast Spas are being manufactured by Tatum Manufacturing. Hydro Spas also sells a Distrbutor Line to Superior Pool Products, called Outback Spas. These Outbacks are sold by SPP to Pool Stores throughout the country. The spas sold by Costco are made by the Jacuzzi owned manufacturing plant Gatzby Spas, out of Plantation Florida. That was the same plant that made the infamous Jacuzzi Home Depot Spa, between the years of 1998-2001, before Depot dropped the line. Dave.
-
One of us needs to change our name! >:(
;)
Steve
-
Dont forget about HYDRA-SPA..
-
Vinny,
You caught the new photos on the Artesian Website before I did. The photos are updated but not the specs. The Island Line is now available with 32, 42, 52 or 62 Jets. I agree with you, I am a little skeptical about how the footjets will be in 2006 for the Garand Bahama and the Grand Cayman. They removed the foot dome on those two models and the jets are now on the footwell wall, but they are larger full size jets. For the Antiqua and Captiva, the foot jets greatly improved. I will let you know how the footjets are, as soon as they arrive and I fire the Cayman up. The shells have been retooled with real sleek lines, it is toough to see it on the web site. Artesian did switch to a larger Circ Pump in the spring of 2005, but I thought you had the older style circ pump, the grey Grundfos Pump, which consumes very little enery. 101 degrees set continuously, could add to the cost abit. Do you still use the tub daily and if so always at night or sometimes during the day. Maybe you could run less heat cycles or drop the temperature back a few degrees, when exiting the spa. Dave.
-
Sorry Steve,
This post was entirely about a different company than yours. Hydro Pool, really make a nice high quality spa. Are you displaying spas at the Atlantic City Pool and Spa Show, in January? If so, see you there. Dave.
-
Last month was my first real indication on the cost to run the Hot Tub. We did not use heat or air conditioning. My Beachcomber has a 24 circulation pump and I use the tub about 5 times a week, for about 20 to 30 minutes each soak. My bill went up 230 kwh for the month. You are using about 600 kwh a month more which seems way to high.
-
Sorry Steve,
This post was entirely about a different company than yours. Hydro Pool, really make a nice high quality spa. Are you displaying spas at the Atlantic City Pool and Spa Show, in January? If so, see you there. Dave.
Thanks for the compliment Dave. We are represented at the Atlantic City show but I personally, won't be attending. I will however be in the tropical climate of Niagara Falls in mid January for our annual conference. :-/
Take care,
Steve
-
Steve,
Sorry, you won't be at the AC Show. It is always a good show. Have a great Dealer Conference. The conference would be better for you, to spend more quality time with your dealers, instead of a few minutes on the show floor. Hope 2006 is a great year for you. Dave.
-
And you my friend!
-
Mendocino101 & NJ Dave
Its a Hydro Spa manufacured in Florida and marketed in my area by a dealer out of a large warehouse. I thought I did my homework before I bought the Spa. It seemed to be highly rated by the site I found. (Can't remember the site name). They never mentioned the lack of insulation.
I'm a bit dissapointed. I hope I can at least alleviate the problem to the point that the spa is affordable. If the October November bill is an indication of what the December/January/February bills would be I'm glad I turned it off.
Also I will have to blow the air lines out. I think I'll have to do it with the vacuum since the spa is empty and the pumps will go on as soon as I power it up.
Dave
-
Vinny,
You caught the new photos on the Artesian Website before I did. The photos are updated but not the specs. The Island Line is now available with 32, 42, 52 or 62 Jets. I agree with you, I am a little skeptical about how the footjets will be in 2006 for the Garand Bahama and the Grand Cayman. They removed the foot dome on those two models and the jets are now on the footwell wall, but they are larger full size jets. For the Antiqua and Captiva, the foot jets greatly improved. I will let you know how the footjets are, as soon as they arrive and I fire the Cayman up. The shells have been retooled with real sleek lines, it is toough to see it on the web site. Artesian did switch to a larger Circ Pump in the spring of 2005, but I thought you had the older style circ pump, the grey Grundfos Pump, which consumes very little enery. 101 degrees set continuously, could add to the cost abit. Do you still use the tub daily and if so always at night or sometimes during the day. Maybe you could run less heat cycles or drop the temperature back a few degrees, when exiting the spa. Dave.
I have the huge circ pump - 48 frame/240V job. I don't know how much power it consumes, I was assuming it was still at 0.6 A but it certainly not the pump on their website.
I actually had it to 102 F (was too hot) but brought it down to 101 but as you know the less expensive electronics in the Island series doesn't allow for any saver modes. I don't use it every night and never during the day but want it at temp and ready for use. As far as the heating cycles I quoted, they are just mathimatical guesstimates. That's the one thing I don't care about in the Island series - some of the other tubs I looked at had economy cycles and I would like that in these electronic - well I can't have everything!!!
Of course when people look at the dollar a day, they aren't looking at the cost of delivery which can add a lot to the cost - in my case about double. Not looking at delivery, I pay about $0.08 KWH and 600 KWH = $48 - truely not bad at all.
Hey, I'm not complaining [glb]SPATOPIA[/glb] comes at a price!
-
doriley,
Since your spa is thermopane, why don't you go to HD and look at that panel insulation, they have some with foil outsides. Cut the sheet to fit the access holes exactly and stuff the corners and the upper areas with fiberglass insulation. They now sell encapsulated fiberglass insulation for using inside a wall stud.
See if you can get any on the spa floor - the more insulation you can put in, the better the the energy efficiency. I would even Duct tape the openings where you put the sheet insulation to create a draft free enviroment
When I was shopping for a tub, I was looking at Emerald which is a TP tub. I was going to get their best insulation package to make sure it didn't cost me too much in the winter.
Good Luck!
-
doriley
I'm glad to hear you did blow out your water plumbing lines, but get that air blower line blown out asap.You can power up the spa for 30 seconds and turn on the blower. If you are conscerned about the the pump running for 30 seconds without water, you can unplug the red plug on your balboa control head, which is your pump plug first, then turn on your breaker and turn on the air blower and watch the water spray into the air, blowing out that air line. If you would rather not, turn on the breaker, then remove the set screw holding the PVC line to your air blower and blow air into the air blower line that way. That other website that rates them four stars, has a paid for rating system that costs $25,000. Dave, what matters is you are enjoying your tub and it is fine for you. You have good reliable electronic controls by Balboa Instruments. You can work on the insulation situation to lower operating costs and start enjoying that tub again. keep in touch and let us know how things go. Goodluck. Dave.
-
Vinny,
Great suggestion! They sell those insulated panels in diiferent thicknesses from 1/2"-2" thick. Some are just foam and others have a foil like the Celotex Brand. Duct taping the seams and corners will help to seal that loose fitting cabinet. The floor will help also. Vinny, you are not doing bad for winter costs, with keeping that tub at 101 degrees all the time. And hey, you are in Spatopia. Your 48" frame circ pump does have a amp rating higher than .60, which is the old rating for the Grundfos Pump. But, the filtration system does not cost you that much. Most of the cost comes when that heater turns on, drawing 22-24 amps and when the high pumps run. It's a great night for the tub. Enjoy the Hot H20. Dave.
-
NJDave,
OK just blew out the air lines, got a nice spray. Pump was on less than 30 seconds. Sopped up extra water.
That 4 star rating I guess is like consumer reports, more you pay, better the rating.
Thanks.
Dave
-
doriley,
I have been told by more than one manufacturer that the other site with the ratings charges $25,000 for the 4 Star Rating, which they call a fee for advertising. It is a shame for the folks that trust the site and use the rating to assist in their buying decision. About 6 manufacturers just don't belong on their 4 Star List, some should be on the 2 Star List. Oh well. I'm glad you were able to turn on the air blower and push that water out of the air injectors. Looks like you are all set now. Hope you will be back in soon. Enjoy. Dave.
-
Gawd I'd love to see a pricelist from P&S on gaining a best of class rating...
-
You guessed it Steve. It is quite a lot. We had a local dealer from Camden New Jersey, that was calling himself a manufacturer, selling his private Label Spa, he had a 4 Star Best of Class Rating on that site. He paid the fee and got the best rating money could buy. In the end that 4 Star Rated Company, had internet consumers all across America looking for them, as they took deposits and failed to deliver 94 Hot tubs. I'm sure you know who I am talking about, you could not forget his outrageous posts. I tried to warn people that they were not a manufacturer at all, but just a new dealer that popped up. But, with a Four Star Best of Class, many folks took stock in that and went with these guys. It was a real shame. I just repaired 2 of their spas this week, for customers that thought they were getting a 10 year equipment warranty. Money talks. Stick with major known manufacturers, shop local dealers, wet test and get what you deserve, service.
-
OK the figures are revamped. I actually LOOKED at my bill and the usage was about 500 KWH and my total cost is $0.1164/KWH so total cost is about $58 - even better!
-
Gawd I'd love to see a pricelist from P&S on gaining a best of class rating...
I've seen someone on here post it a long time ago. For some reason, I'm thinking it was either wmccall or Dr. Spa. Someone that posts here does have it, though.
I found it http://poolandspa.com/page151.htm
Terminator