Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: razoruk on December 14, 2005, 09:09:14 pm
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We have done a lot of research, both here and at other forums and are looking closely at two Spa's.
1) Caldera Tahitian Utopia
2) Sundance Cameo
We've been to every dealer in the Boise, ID area ( many initially before visiting forums) and had our shortlist down to about 5 dealers.
We were also looking at the Hotspring Sovereign, Calspa (I know, I Know :o) CA51, and the Marquis Epic.
The dealers for the Hotspring and Marquis put me off completely. The Marquis dealer is a building merchant and was very quick to do the for $500 we can lock you into today's special price.......... I ran, ran for the next dealer as quick as I could.......
Hotspring, the dealer was just too quick to point out the flaws of all of the other spas on the market, rather than let his product sell itself. I also wasn't overly impressed with the moto-massage on the spas, just wasn't for me.
Calspa - Research led me to steer clear of these spas and they were ruled out completely without blinking an eye. For an investment in relaxation, I want to go with a manufacturer that I can trust to back their product.
I like the look of both the spas that we have it narrowed down to and all that is left now is for me to arrange the wet tests of them. I've yet to get in a spa that I haven't liked, but don't want to drop the $$$ on an untested spa.
As for dealers, I really really liked the Caldera dealer, he spent well over 45 minutes with us (ignoring any other distractions such as cell phone etc) going over the features of the spas, going over maintenance and gave me a real good indication that he knows his product extremely well. It transpired later on in the conversation that he was the one that serviced them in our area as well - no wonder he knew what he was talking about!
He was also the only dealer in the area that actually was willing to say that other spas were very good and that any choice we made between a Caldera, Sundance or a Hotsprings would not be a mistake.
On top of that the dealer was willing to point out the flaws in his own spa rather than his competitors. I found this a very refreshing approach to the sales pitch and has built my trust in him over most of his competitors.
Prior to the wet test I am swinging towards the Caldera. After the wet test who knows, loungers may or may not be for me. If sowe'll look at the similar models without the lounger.
Thanks for listening and any thoughts or advice would be welcomed. 8)
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Prior to the wet test I am swinging towards the Caldera. After the wet test who knows, loungers may or may not be for me. If sowe'll look at the similar models without the lounger.
Thanks for listening and any thoughts or advice would be welcomed. 8)
After reading your post there isn't much advice needed you seem to be on top of things. If you know you're looking at a quality spa the next step is certainly to be confident in your dealer (you seem to be in the 2 you're considering) and then wet test.
One thing to add. I agree that most spas feel nice in a wet test but you're not really looking for which one doesn't feel good as much as you're looking for one to slap you upside the head and say "Pick me". I do belirve the wet test will quickly resolve your Lounge/No Lounge question.
Let us know how it goes.
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Just a note .....sometimes "todays deal" REALLY is todays deal......Marquis for example just had a price increase and if the dealer was locking in a price for you before the increase he may have been being very sincere with you....Good luck with what ever spa you choose.
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Mendeocino101 - I understand what you are saying but it's a relatively new dealer, they specialize in building materials and sub contract out their spa work. It just didn't feel right for me, especially within 12 minutes of being there he was trying to lock me into a deal.
Reliability of warranty and the dealer combined is what is probably going to sway my decision on a purchase like this.
None of this is to say I didn't like the Marquis spas, I just wasn't convinced the dealer would be there 3 years down the line if I needed him.
I'm just glad I found this forum as there was so much invaluable information around that has assisted me in finding the quality over the flashy gadgets, and it also has shown me how important it is to have a dealer you can rely on.
Having done further research on the Caldera dealer in the area, they've been here for 15 years and have sold the Caldera's for the last 7 of them, having dropped previous lines they sold for what they percieved as quality issues.
They are a family owned business, with family employees throughout. I just get the feeling they are in it for the long haul. I find that just a very comforting feeling going into the final stages of a fairly good purchase like this.:)
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None of this is to say I didn't like the Marquis spas, I just wasn't convinced the dealer would be there 3 years down the line if I needed him.
I'm a Sundance owner and I love our Optima. Bottom line though is that a quality spa is going to be a quality spa. Our Sundance dealer went under 6 months after we purchased but a year has gone by and we've had no problems as it's a quality spa. There's another dealer in the area now that can do service if needed. The high end companies like Marquis in this case will look after you if you have a problem down the line. It's easy for me to say that you'd be happy with the Cameo as I know you would be but I wouldn't be so quick to be throwing out a company like Marquis especially if you actually like one of their spas. As long as you purchase a brand with a good reputation make sure it's the spa that YOU want... Even if you're not happy with the Marquis dealer if the Epic is a spa you like (or the HotSpring Sovereign) then give them as much consideration as the Caldera or Sundance. All the top spas are good quality and the companies stand by their product. Buy the one that FITS you the best.
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Bulmer4nc,
I agree with you, that is one of the reasons to go with a major brand, The maker stands behind the product, no different than a car or a major appliance, etc. weather it be a major chain store or a local Mom and Pop type place if they close thier doors your warranty is still backed by the maker. I think the dealer here for Marquis might have been to quick to try and push for a deal without really earning Razoruk business. Razoruk if after your looking you like the Epic than I say go with it or as mentioned any of the spas you are looking are all made by the most commonly recognized leaders in the industry and each have earned the rep by the way they treat people.
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I've owned a Sundance Cameo for 6 months now. I love it and wouldn't change a thing.
I also had my list narrowed down to some of the same tubs that you have mentioned. Once we really got in the tubs, we were able to tell which one was really comfortable for us so it was an easy decision after that.
You are doing the right thing by wet testing. It will be an easy choice once you wet test because the best tub for you will be the one that fits you best.
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Bulmer4nc,
I think the dealer here for Marquis might have been to quick to try and push for a deal without really earning Razoruk business.
That's exactly as it felt to both me and my wife, I'd already told him that we were looking to buy about a month down the line (once we finished a refinancing) and he was just way too pushy. I've walked away from cars that I really want for that same reason. If you have a good product, it'll sell itself. Maybe I'll go back and try and talk to them again and see how it goes a second time around before discounting them from the list.
The other concern is that their speciality is the building field, where as all other dealers sell spas and spas alone.
There are so many good spas it's hard to narrow them down. Here you guys are widening my search out again. ;D
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The other concern is that their speciality is the building field, where as all other dealers sell spas and spas alone.
It wouldn't hurt to give them a second shot but I would defintely lean toward one of the dealers with experience that has it's main efforts geared toward the spa end rather than the spas being their secondary product.
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...Even if you're not happy with the Marquis dealer if the Epic is a spa you like (or the HotSpring Sovereign) then give them as much consideration as the Caldera or Sundance.
Most of the posts on this forum make a big deal about being comfortable with your dealer, their ability to help you and provide service after the sale, and that they will be there for you down the road. It appeared to me that your original post shows you have things figured out. "Trust the force.":)
Mendo, if the brands had been reversed, would you still have supported considering the spa with the "bad dealer"?
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He was also the only dealer in the area that actually was willing to say that other spas were very good and that any choice we made between a Caldera, Sundance or a Hotsprings would not be a mistake.
On top of that the dealer was willing to point out the flaws in his own spa rather than his competitors. I found this a very refreshing approach to the sales pitch and has built my trust in him over most of his competitors.
That, my friends, is a very sharp sales professional.
Terminator
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Most of the posts on this forum make a big deal about being comfortable with your dealer, their ability to help you and provide service after the sale, and that they will be there for you down the road. It appeared to me that your original post shows you have things figured out. "Trust the force.":)
Mendo, if the brands had been reversed, would you still have supported considering the spa with the "bad dealer"?
When we were looking and starting on this board the consensus was that going with a reputible dealer was almost a must. We did just that. We bought a Sundance with a dealer that had been in the area for 15 to 20 years and had a great reputation. Who would have predicted that 6 months later they would be gone...
I think it is likely more important to go with a dealer you trust if you are wanting to purchase a tub that is from a smaller manufacturer or one that doesn't have a great reputation... So, if you do have problems there will be someone local that can help you.
In the case of Sundance, HotSpring, Marquis, etc... I think these companies have been around a long time and even if there is not a 'local' dealer there that can help if there are problems, they just seem to find a way to help you anyway. They have the good reputations for a reason. They stand by their product and for the most part have great customer service.
I'm not saying that having a good local dealer isn't important but if you're looking at purchasing a spa from one of the bigger companies then I think it's LESS important. I think what is more important is that the customer purchases the spa that they feel the most comfortable with. It has to the right fit for them and they need to be comfortable with the level of server they get after the fact. I think that regardless of the local dealer you should expect a high level of service if you purchase from companies like HotSpring, Sundance, Marquis, Jacuzzi, etc...
Maybe I'm way off base... Who knows. I just know that even though you may 'think' your local dealer is going to be around and provide you the best service it may not always be the case. How would we have guessed that the dealer in our area that had been around the longest would have ended up closing their doors...
Ken
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...I'm not saying that having a good local dealer isn't important but if you're looking at purchasing a spa from one of the bigger companies then I think it's LESS important...
I really don't want to belabor the point, and obviously your experience demonstrates the exception to the trust your dealer rule, if there is one. However, extrapolating this "bigger company, dealer less important" theory: If HotSpring or Sundance were to start selling spas on the internet, would you recommend bypassing a local dealer to save some money? ???
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We have done a lot of research, both here and at other forums and are looking closely at two Spa's.
1) Caldera Tahitian Utopia
2) Sundance Cameo
We've been to every dealer in the Boise, ID area ( many initially before visiting forums) and had our shortlist down to about 5 dealers.
We were also looking at the Hotspring Sovereign, Calspa (I know, I Know :o) CA51, and the Marquis Epic.
Razoruk, I seems you have done your shopping. I don’t think you mentioned a single bad choice, although one has some bad history to overcome. I feel the product is very important, as well as the manufacturer and I feel the dealer is also a very important part of the process and should be a consideration, however I also agree with Bulmer4nc,
When we were looking and starting on this board the consensus was that going with a reputible dealer was almost a must. We did just that. We bought a Sundance with a dealer that had been in the area for 15 to 20 years and had a great reputation. Who would have predicted that 6 months later they would be gone...Ken
You are making a purchase decision in the present time and you are unknowing as to what the future holds. We all deal with this in everyday life. Your analysis leads me to believe if you were to make your decision right now, it would be Caldera and that would be good. However, ask the open forum for an opinion and all of their comments are intended to be helpful in your decision making process.
Right now, I think you should make a trip to review your impressions. We haven’t mentioned price, which is a guiding factor as well, so go with your intuition, you have to live with it we don’t. And I am here to tell you, when you get it delivered, set up and you and your loved one are soaking in Hot Water, you are going to forget about all of this confusion and you are going to mutter to yourself, why did I wait so long to make this decision”.
Get ready to pop for it. Set your mind on the Caldera, go shopping and confirm it. Visit your Caldera dealer and tell him your ready unless your review leads you elsewhere.
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Mendo, if the brands had been reversed, would you still have supported considering the spa with the "bad dealer"?
Here's my point...I was in agreement with bulmer4nc that in the end even if your dealer turns out to be something less than you had thought...the maker of the spa will stand behind it....that there is no guarantee that a dealer who appears to be good today and in fact very well is....will always be there tomorrow....just ask bulmer4nc or our highly esteemed moderato Bill ....as bulmer4nc pointed out and I agreed with that when dealing with one of the major brands...should your dealer close you will not be left out in the cold...they will still find a way to service you....
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Here's my point...they will still find a way to service you....
So that is a yes? You would recommend reconsidering a Caldera from a dealer he/she is not comfortable with, instead of proceeding to purchase a Marquis from a dealer who was very impressive?
Let's not lose sight of the fact that razoruk has obviously identified a choice between two quality tubs from manufacturers that have solid reputations for standing behind their product. Having made it this far in the decision process, why do you think they should circle back around to a dealer that they had good reasons for excluding, other than the fact that they sell your brand?
I know this comes off as argumentative, which I don't mean to be... it's just my nature! ;D
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Liking or not liking the spa after the wet test will be the most significant player in our decision, and I understand that the dealer isn't the be all and end all, but to me, and this is a personal decision, it plays a big part in how comfortable I am with dropping $6500 - $8000 in their lap.
If you show yourself as honest and trustworthy (-which the caldera rep has as anything he said has been backed up across my research), you have a far far greater chance of winning my business than someone I don't feel I can trust.
That said, the decision is not going to be made on the dealer and the dealer alone, but if I like all of the spas I wet test equally, then the dealer will end up probably tipping the scales in that brands favour.
Value is important, but my perception of value may also differ greatly from some of yours.
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I think you've got it handled from here Raz. Good luck and let us know how it goes.
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I think you've got it handled from here Raz. Good luck and let us know how it goes.
Ditto, confirm, let us know.
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Here's my point...I was in agreement with bulmer4nc that in the end even if your dealer turns out to be something less than you had thought...the maker of the spa will stand behind it....that there is no guarantee that a dealer who appears to be good today and in fact very well is....will always be there tomorrow....just ask bulmer4nc or our highly esteemed moderato Bill ....as bulmer4nc pointed out and I agreed with that when dealing with one of the major brands...should your dealer close you will not be left out in the cold...they will still find a way to service you....
..Wow Soakin....talk about twisting someones words....you took the first and last sentence of what I wrote and quoted me ......are you by chance a newspaper reporter or just gifted in misquoting someone ....I too am not trying to be argumentative but step up and tell the whole story if you are going to quote someone....I think if you read what I actually wrote, it was in the end of his shopping he still found himself liking the Epic than go for it and I also mentioned all of spas he was looking at were all made by well respected makers......normally I would be upset about someone trying to manipulate something I said....but this is not worth the energy as its so transparent Stevie Wonder could see it .....
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This board can get a bit touchy sometimes........ :-/ :-/
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..Wow Soakin....talk about twisting someones words....you took the first and last sentence of what I wrote and quoted me ...
Wow Mendo, you took my question as to why you would recommend going back to a dealer that the shopper was uncomfortable with, and made it about me. Are you by chance a politician or just someone gifted at avoiding answering a question? ;)
You seem to think I have an agenda and suggested I step up and tell the whole story, so I will. I am not a reporter, or someone who regularly twists other's words. I am a spa owner who comes here for information and advice, and to share what I have learned along the way. I have no agenda other than wanting this forum to remain a good source of unbiased information. I have posted before about my concern that this forum has evolved from one where the dealers "checked their brands at the door" and tried to give shoppers unbiased advice... to a lot of "buy mine because its the best" or at its worst, bashing other brands. I have always respected your opinion and found you to be one of the best dealers in trying to keep your natural biases out when responding to questions. In this case, I found your answer self-serving, and asked you a question twice in hopes that I misunderstood, and a direct answer to a direct question would clear it up for me, or point out to you that you were experiencing a little Marquis Kool-aid hangover. You didn't answer me either time, which leaves me to assume the worst.
So there is no doubt, my assumption is that you would not have suggested razoruk go back to a non-Marquis dealer whose primarly business was building materials and had just added spas as an extra line, was pushy, and left the buyer certain that they didn't want to do business there.
Just curious, is that what you saw as transparent?
Stevie Wonder 8)
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I am sorry slow thinking soakin....I am sorry that if you do not have the ability to read and recognize that another spa owner like you of a different product was suggesting do not be so quick to discount a spa you might like just because you have some questions about a dealer....If you can go back and slowly read what I said, my comment was first that the deal that was only for today could have in fact legitimatly been so based on a price increase that went into effect about 10 days ago.... never did I say go back to the dealer, never did I even suggest it, I also mentioned ALL of the spas he was looking at were made by respected manufactures, I also said that in the end of his shopping he found himself still liking the Epic than go for it as the maker will always make sure he had service .....I appreciate that you mention you do not REGAURLY twist someones words I guess this was just a one time thing with me than.
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wondering weather or not to chime in as this debabte seems to have gotten a little heated. i know the "reliable dealer" issue everyone likes to see. myself, i am a NEW dealer. been so for about 6 months. however, our electrical/pool building business has been around for 6 years. would i loose a sale becuase of my time in the spa business? very possible. does the quality of the brand i sell make a difference?? i would say yes. does the fact i represent a company that as everyone on this board considers "top notch" make me less of a dealer due to my time? id say no!!
not to get between mendo and soakin, but the fact that is razor has done his homework. he is looking at quality brands. business is and always will be dictated by society. 20 years in business doesnt make a success. look at the auto industry. mercury cars are no more. how long were they around?
mendo, i do not mean to miss quote or put words in your mouth; but from what i gathered was even if the Marquis dealer is new, and it is a secondary business venture, it does not mean that Marquis wouldnt stand behind their product. if razor didnt feel comfortable, its his porogative. perhaps it was the dealers "feeling" that razor was eager to get a spa and was trying to push the issue. wasnt there so i dont know.
point to this rambling is..........dealer new or old, is only 1/2 of the overall issue. product, warrenty, and the individual customers taste are what matters.
ok, i am done ranting.
socal
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dealer new or old, is only 1/2 of the overall issue. product, warrenty, and the individual customers taste are what matters.
ok, i am done ranting.
socal
This is true but IMO if you aren't comfortable with the dealer would you proceed further because you liked the product if other products were there that could also be trusted? What it boils down to FOR ME, I'd have to like the product MUCH MORE than the other alternatives to overlook my hesitation with a certain dealer.
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So Cal,
The only thing I commented on at first was that there are times when deal that is mentioned as being good for today....Really can be only good for that day.....at times it is legitimate to make that statement as You know So CAL there was a price increase and if the dealer he looked at was factoring that in than it may I have been credible .....I also mentioned that it appeared the dealer (Marquis) did not really earn the right to ask for razoruk business , that he may in fact had been to quick....it was than followed up by another person who suggested he not totally discount a spa he might like solely based on the dealer and I pointed out that if AFTER his shopping he still found himself likeing the Epic than Marquis as any of the other repuatable makers would make sure he alaways had service .....
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Gotta agree with Mendo on this one. Point in case: I went to my local Ford dealer when I bought my Mustang. In my opinion, buying a car is lot like buying a spa anyway, gotta "test drive" it, get the feel for it, see if you like it. Gotta haggle over the price a little, haggle over the warranty a little, gotta see what options they might throw in.
I wasn't absolutley enthralled with the demeanor of my sales person or the dealership in general, but I had already spent the biggest part of a day there hammering out a deal and didn't want to go through that again, after all it was a pretty good deal when I got through. So, I bought the car.
Fortunately I've only needed service a couple of times and rather than finding out their service dept. is as bad as their sales department, I just take it to the Ford dealer on the other side of town where I've gotten excellent service. The dealer didn't factor in all that much to tell you the truth, the dealer didn't build the car he's just selling it, so I know I am able to get good competent service somewhere through Ford's network of dealers.
-Sarge
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This is true but IMO if you aren't comfortable with the dealer would you proceed further because you liked the product if other products were there that could also be trusted? What it boils down to FOR ME, I'd have to like the product MUCH MORE than the other alternatives to overlook my hesitation with a certain dealer.
I think that is a valid and true statement and I think what got twisted here was that Bulmer4nc had mentioned if you like a certain spa than do not totally discount it because of the dealer and I followed up, with ANY of the major makers will stand behind their product if you dealer fails. But no one said hey forget your shopping and go back to the guy you did not like and give him another chance, I simply said that AFTER his shopping he happen to still like the Epic in this case than Marquis will always make sure he is taken care of.
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Soakin,
Just a note if either of us has misunderstood each other and their intentions. I do apologise ....My comments were never intended to ever imply only buy Marquis, I do not think I ever implied anything like that. I simply was trying to point out 2 main things and that is sometimes a real deal today can be true and is not always a just a sales gimmick and secondly that no matter the spa you buy the major makers stand behind their product even if the dealer does not.
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I simply was trying to point out 2 main things and that is sometimes a real deal today can be true and is not always a just a sales gimmick and secondly that no matter the spa you buy the major makers stand behind their product even if the dealer does not.
Yep, you're exactly right. I agree with you 100%.
Terminator
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yes I agree too. I think...I agree :o
I got to tell you guys. I sure learn alot from this forum. some good and some bad but I am always learning.
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Well, I think they both had a point so let's call it a draw and move on.
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the nice thing about having a choice of quality products is that the customers get what the want. buy from who they like and feel that they get more bang for their buck. standard economics.
razor, your choices of spas are good. either 1 would be a worthy purchase.
but like mendo said, if you still feel like you want a closer look at a Marquis AFTER all your shopping, it wouldnt hurt to keep your options open. just my opinion.
either way, the spa you decide to purchase will be the one YOU like and fits YOU best. happy shopping, and happy holidays.
IMO, the "todays deal" and "special sale" has been used so often in society either from car companies or department stores that when anyone who actually is trying to get in b4 a price hike is usually looked at with some level of distrust. as Mendo mentioned, there was a price increase for 06. customers usually are unaware of such things. maybe we need a new phrase insted of year end or today only??? some code to let everyone know its not a load of bs.
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I am sorry slow thinking soakin....I am sorry that if you do not have the ability to read ....
Re: your apology if there was a misunderstanding. No misunderstanding. Even for a slow thinking illiterate, the above was pretty clear.
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Re: your apology if there was a misunderstanding. No need. The above was pretty clear.
Looking back, I think your right....It is pretty clear... You still seem to pick apart and paste sentences together but at least this time they were a bit more complete .....
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...I have always respected your opinion and found you to be one of the best dealers in trying to keep your natural biases out when responding to questions....
Retracted.
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Wow, look @ those post times! Gentleman, please, please don't drink and post. Be safe and have a Merry Christmas! ;D
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...Gentleman, please, please don't drink and post... ;D
Can't speak for Mendo, but I was sober. I had been away all day, had to check a couple of things on the internet, decided to stop in here and found out I was "slow thinking". Didn't seem very friendly or respectful to me, so I changed my opinion. ;D I'm done with this. Merry Christmas to you to.!
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Wow, look @ those post times! Gentleman, please, please don't drink and post. Be safe and have a Merry Christmas! ;D
does that mean i have to put my coffee away??? ;D
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I do not think for those have followed this thread from the beginning, that it takes much effort to see who is been accurate and who seems to be twisting another persons words. As for soakin why you have some desire to try and manipulate and attempt to twist me into a corner , I have no idea. And again if you missed the point on topic that I was in agreement with another member about , than that's on you. Its funny that others have posted here in this thread about understanding the point myself and another memeber was making. And maybe this time you will get it, That is all of major brands will make sure you have service if your dealer fails you. Why this has been so difficult for you to get, I do not know. But when you try and pigeon hole me into a corner and tell me that I did this only out of brand loyalty it is unfounded, the comment about the pricing perhaps being real was because I am familiar with a price increase and could certainly understand that if that was the reason than it was in fact valid. I am sorry but I do not know about price increases for other makers as they do not send them out to competing dealers.
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I probably shouldn't chime in, but please tell me if this is an example of a company "taking care of its customers"
An owner of a 3 month old tub has undergone 4 pump replacements and a spa pack replacement. The customer demands a new spa. The manufacturer says no, thats like asking for a new house, we've replaced the furnace and all of the other faulty appliances.
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Hotubman,
At this point, Since it is not a structural problem I do not know if a new spa is warranted ....Many people like to make auto comparisons and in that industry they have a arbitration board to decide if a replacement is reasonable ...but 4 repairs would not even at this point get your case heard. It is certainly frustrating for all party's but if the maker is trying to get it right than they should be allowed to do so. I again would be more concerned if it were structural problem. But hey thats just my opinion.
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In an extreme case, I could see a manufacturer replacing an entire pak but not the spa itself unless it was a structural issue.
Nice to see everyone's in the Christmas spirit! ;) HOHOHO
Steve
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You guys are putting Dad in a bad mood.