Hot Tub Forum

Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: orlandoguy on December 09, 2005, 03:35:37 pm

Title: still fighting with ph
Post by: orlandoguy on December 09, 2005, 03:35:37 pm
I recently started using the Taylor kit to get a better ph reading and still have trouble maintaining a good ph.  According the the store, getting the alk right is the first step, which i did.  Over the course of three days, I used nearly a full bottle of ph down and still can't get too the "ideal" reading which I think is 7.4, right?

The guy says i might be worrying too much and as long as it is not bright red in the kit and under 8.0, I should be happy.  Anyoe agree?
Title: Re: still fighting with ph
Post by: windsurfdog on December 09, 2005, 03:49:01 pm
If you are using dichlor, it will continue to decrease slowly since dichlor's 7.0 pH will lower it over time.  As we swapped posts about before, use unbuffered MPS to shock with and its 3-4 pH will bring it down even quicker.  I would agree that anything below 8 is ok as long as it continues to drop slowly.  And consider this:  If you have it too basic for a period of time, allow the pH to drop to around 7.0 or so which will cause any calcium buildup that may have occured during the high pH time to be returned to the water.  This is the route I take when after changing my water.  After a couple of days in the tub, my new water will be 8.0+ but I won't use any acid--just dichlor and MPS.  After a couple of shocks over the period of 2 weeks or so, the pH is usually just about 7.4.  I'll let it drop on down for a week or so and then bump it back up with soda ash to around 7.4 or so.  Remember, water balance is like horseshoes and hand gernades......close counts. 8)
Title: Re: still fighting with ph
Post by: orlandoguy on December 09, 2005, 04:14:41 pm
good theory, but does this apply to bromine.
Title: Re: still fighting with ph
Post by: tonyp on December 09, 2005, 05:17:06 pm
Mine may take a month to settle even with some PH- since my alkalinity is so high.  I just take it sloq.  For some reason after my last water change the PH read low.  I ignored it and the next morning it was 8+.  Maybe just a bad reading.
Title: Re: still fighting with ph
Post by: orlandoguy on December 09, 2005, 05:33:40 pm
I was reading about a new chart and theory that says you do less maintainance with chemicals and enjoy less itching if you run a higher alk, as well as having ph easier to maintain, I forget the name of the chart but need to try it.
Title: Re: still fighting with ph
Post by: Soakin on December 09, 2005, 05:39:54 pm
Quote
...For some reason after my last water change the PH read low.  I ignored it and the next morning it was 8+.  Maybe just a bad reading.
My water always acts that way.  It reads perfect out of the tap, but by the next day it shows high pH and TA, and doesn't come down without a lot of dry acid.  I haven't tried WSD's program, but it sounds good, providing your water is not too hard.  Otherwise I would fear scale buildup.
Title: Re: still fighting with ph
Post by: hymbaw on December 09, 2005, 06:26:06 pm
O-GUY,

   Bromine is less affected by ph swings than chlorine, so as far as sanitizing you'll be OK. I would keep trying to get the ph down around 7.4. High ph can cause problems over time.

good luck
Title: Re: still fighting with ph
Post by: orlandoguy on December 09, 2005, 07:27:00 pm
Yeah.  I keep thinking of trying that stuff that locks the ph in at the correct levels once you get it right.  I think you need to do it right after a drain and refill and since I am only a month into this fill, i will wait.

Funny how it was perfect for so long and went bad like a stepchild on drugs.

It might also be that the taylor kit is giving better readings than the strips were.  I am currently around 8.0 so I guess it could be worse.
Title: Re: still fighting with ph
Post by: ssmtim on December 10, 2005, 09:43:38 am
Good Morning

For what it's worth, we have used Bromine in our Beachcomber since new 3 years ago.  The Dealer told us that Bromine will bring the ph down over time and we have found this to be true.  We find that we have to use ph-up monthly to raise the ph and then it will gradually fall.

I think that if you wait, the ph will drift downward - this is a slow process - you may have to wait a week or so to see much change.

Good luck

Tim
Title: Re: still fighting with ph
Post by: windsurfdog on December 10, 2005, 09:52:47 am
Quote
good theory, but does this apply to bromine.


ssmtim said:
Quote
For what it's worth, we have used Bromine in our Beachcomber since new 3 years ago.  The Dealer told us that Bromine will bring the ph down over time and we have found this to be true.  We find that we have to use ph-up monthly to raise the ph and then it will gradually fall.


Sounds like bromine's pH is comparable to dichlor's pH....good to know.  Being a dichlor guy, I'm clueless re: bromine.  Thx ssmtim.

If MPS is an acceptable shock for bromine, I'd try the unbuffered stuff as suggested.  Good luck!
Title: Re: still fighting with ph
Post by: Soakin on December 10, 2005, 10:10:37 am
Quote
Sounds like bromine's pH is comparable to dichlor's pH
I believe Bromines pH is even lower.   I'm thinking 6 or so, but don't remember for sure. :)
Title: Re: still fighting with ph
Post by: tony on December 10, 2005, 12:44:00 pm
Bromine actually has a pH of about 2.  pH should naturally drift down with bromine.  Have you tried the acid demand reagents in your Taylor kit.  They will tell you exactly how much dry acid you need to get it where you want.
Title: Re: still fighting with ph
Post by: Soakin on December 11, 2005, 01:30:50 am
Quote
Bromine actually has a pH of about 2.
Tony's number sounded a little low to me, so I checked Doc's handy "sanitizer comparison" page.  He says bromine's pH is 3.5-4.5.  I'm guessing that pure bromine would have a pH of 2 as Tony says and the bromine tablets that everyone uses are higher due to the dichlor and other inert ingredients.  Regardless, it is still pretty acidic and will bring your pH down over time.
Title: Re: still fighting with ph
Post by: orlandoguy on December 11, 2005, 09:27:29 am
Time seems to be the big thing.  The bottle says to add an ounce at a time and keep rechecking every half hour until it gets to the acceptable level.  After nearly a bottle with very slow results, I am going to see what happens after my normal Sunday shock, which i was experimenting doing every two weeks, possibly causing this recent rise in ph.  Also, a recent addition to our family has caused the tub to be used by someone besides just me, another possible cause.

I am going to try the ph lock after my next drain just to see if it is all it claims to be.
Title: Re: still fighting with ph
Post by: Soakin on December 14, 2005, 01:01:39 pm
Quote
...The bottle says to add an ounce at a time and keep rechecking every half hour until it gets to the acceptable level.  After nearly a bottle with very slow results...
A lot of people wait until the next day to check pH, because it can take a quite awhile for the dose to affect test readings.  You said your TA was OK.  What has been happening to it with all the dry acid?  Since the TA acts as a ph buffer, the TA usually moves first.

FYI, my high TA/high pH water takes about 24 oz of dry acid to get the pH down to 7.5, so I add big doses the first few days, going to an ounce at a time when the TA gets in line and the pH finally starts to move.  
Title: Re: still fighting with ph
Post by: Kyle on December 14, 2005, 01:05:46 pm
I suggest trying the "Lock" to see how it works for you.  It reduced the amount of adjustments I've had to make on my spa.
Title: Re: still fighting with ph
Post by: Soakin on December 14, 2005, 01:20:58 pm
I haven't used it, but don't you have to get your pH in range before a lock can work?
Title: Re: still fighting with ph
Post by: Kyle on December 15, 2005, 03:33:56 pm
Not really.  But It can be an added expense if you are close to draining your spa.  You might want to wait as you suggested until refill.
Title: Re: still fighting with ph
Post by: wmccall on December 15, 2005, 03:42:45 pm
Quote
I recently started using the Taylor kit to get a better ph reading and still have trouble maintaining a good ph.  According the the store, getting the alk right is the first step, which i did.  Over the course of three days, I used nearly a full bottle of ph down and still can't get too the "ideal" reading which I think is 7.4, right?

The guy says i might be worrying too much and as long as it is not bright red in the kit and under 8.0, I should be happy.  Anyoe agree?




Yes, your worrying too much. 7.4 might be an ideal number for PH, but there is an acceptable range. You can accept higher or lower on the range in order to keep ALk where it needs to be.
Title: Re: still fighting with ph
Post by: Soakin on December 15, 2005, 03:48:27 pm
Quote
I suggest trying the "Lock" to see how it works for you.  It reduced the amount of adjustments I've had to make on my spa.
Who makes the product you use?  All of the ones I have seen require the pH be brought into a range of 7.0-8.0 before adding the lock product.
Title: Re: still fighting with ph
Post by: TubbinSoon, now we be tubbin on December 15, 2005, 04:47:15 pm
Plain old white vinegar is safe to use to bring the PH down. Lot cheaper than PH Down products. Get too low and use baking soda, also super cheap, to bring it up. Maybe 50 cents for a container of each.
Title: Re: still fighting with ph
Post by: Soakin on December 15, 2005, 05:00:48 pm
Quote
Plain old white vinegar is safe to use to bring the PH down.
Sounds like a good idea, but I wonder if it is acidic enough to make a dent in my situation.  Any idea how much would be required to bring my pH down?  See above for specs.  Thanks.
Title: Re: still fighting with ph
Post by: st18901 on December 15, 2005, 06:40:12 pm
muriatic acid is dirt cheap too. Just be careful with it.
Title: Re: still fighting with ph
Post by: TubbinSoon, now we be tubbin on December 16, 2005, 04:03:00 pm
I brought PH down from top of the color scale, sort of the bright pink red?, to center reading with about 4-6 oz liquid white vinegar.

Since the bottle of vinegar and the box of baking soda don't have recommended spa doses you have to do this the old fashioned way, try it.

Neither tells you which way it will move, more acid or more base so when the water is in the test bottle and showing a color that it way off, I drop a few drops or a pinch of the soda in the test bottle and see if the color gets better.  One time I was having to use soda and I would try it first and now that doesn't change the color but when I put a drop of vinegar in it changes quickly the right direction so in it goes. You don't have to worry as the mild acetic acid or vinegar isn't harmful and neither is the soda. Pretty tame stuff, cheap stuff and it works. Bingo.
Title: Re: still fighting with ph
Post by: TubbinSoon, now we be tubbin on December 16, 2005, 04:03:33 pm
Oh, and my tub holds about 550 gallons.
Title: Re: still fighting with ph
Post by: orlandoguy on December 16, 2005, 04:17:39 pm
Well, considering I blew about $20 in ph down to get it right this time, I will give the white vinegar a try next battle.  And to think, I thought it was only for salads and very limited hygenic uses.
Title: Re: still fighting with ph
Post by: Brewman on December 16, 2005, 04:33:03 pm
I think in 4th grade we made chemical volcanoes with a funnel, tin foil, baking soda, and vinegar.

Title: Re: still fighting with ph
Post by: windsurfdog on December 17, 2005, 01:20:57 pm
Just checked my pH--7.8.  Here's how it got to this point:

Thanksgiving Day--changed water, added dichlor only, soaked in fresh water......aaaahhhhhh.......
2nd Saturday after Thanksgiving--pH measured 8.0+.  Added dichlor and 3 tbsp unbuffered MPS.
3rd Saturday after Thanksgiving--pH measured 8.0.  Added dichlor and 3 tbsp unbuffered MPS.  Swapped and rinsed filters.
4th Saturday after Thanksgiving (today)--pH measured 7.8.  Added dichlor after soak.  Did not add MPS as combined chlorine was nonexistent.
Of course, subsequent soaks and addition of dichlor after soaking occurred almost daily during this time.  Water is beautiful....crystal blue persuasion....

As the pH will continue down, I'll monitor it once a week.  I'll probably let it get down to 7.0 and watch it there for a little bit before adjusting with either soda ash or baking soda, depending on TA at the time.  Since my water is so good out of the tap, I'm currently not testing for TA or CH at all.

The result of all this?  Beautiful water with minimal chemicals.  I think this will be the best fill yet.....after 1.5 years.

If this helps someone, great.  I certainly feel comfortable suggesting it. 8)