Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: gm on October 19, 2005, 01:21:39 am
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This is my first time on this website and I would like to know about the pros and cons of Full Foam versus Perimeter Insulation in tub construction. I am in the market for a new tub. The tub I have is 20 years old and is ready for replacement. I have been looking at an Arctic Spa and I am not sure about their claims for using less power to heat, but I do like the idea of being able to access all areas of the underside without the foam interference. They also use much heavier fibreglass and have a much better designed spa cover. The other spa that I am looking at is a Pacific spa. This unit is fully foamed and appears to be a solid unit though it doesn't quite meet up to the Arctic in features etc. The Pacific tub is considerably less expensive than the Arctic. Both these tubs are manufactured in Canada.
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I have been looking at an Arctic Spa and I am not sure about their claims for using less power to heat, but I do like the idea of being able to access all areas of the underside without the foam interference.
I question any claims of superiority also. At the same time, if you like their spa, buy it. I may be more of a full foam guy but a themopane spa can be energy efficient as well if it's well made and Arctic has some happy customers here that you can confer with. I haven't heard of Pacific spas so maybe one our northern members can comment on them.
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Thanks.
Pacific spas has been around for quite a long time.
My last spa was a Pacific spa and it is over 20 years old.
It was a very good unit. It ran off of a heat exchanger through our hot water boiler, but with the rising price of natural gas to heat the water, it will be much less expensive for us to heat now with electricity. Ergo the energy efficiency question.
GM
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It's possible the Arctic could be a few pennys a month less than some brands but not all. The shell is no thicker than a bunch of other brands. They however do spend a bit more on the cover than most brands with good reason. 80% of the heat loss comes from there! Whichever brand you decide to buy make sure you get a cover upgrade.
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ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!
this is like a bad movie that never ends, this topic.
I am an arctic owner. I purchased the tundra signature, and I am also in Ontario Canada. I would say to you that arctic is a great tub. I think thier claims and studies are stretched as a marketing ploy, but they do build a quality hot tub. It is a competitive product and it feels good.
Now with that said, hot water and jets feel good no matter what. When you purchase a tub in the price range as arctic, there are several tubs that are great quality. What I am trying to say is that tubs now of days are built so efficient that they run pretty well the same. 1.00 a day is the going rate.
Lets face it, the tub can be the most energy efficient product on the market, whats that going to save you a month??? Maybe 5 or 10 cents off of your hydro bill.
FF vs. TP, is the on going debate for some. Myself, I have come to the conclusion that it all comes down to preference. You have to decide what you want more, do you want your pipes secured and fully insulated or do you want to be able to open the side panel and fix what you need to easly if need be. Both insulate well and are accepted ways to insulate.
Pacific spas I did look at. In my opinion you are comparing ford to mercedies. Each have their pros and cons. You really cant compare these tubs to one another in my opinion. They are not in the same classification.
the last thing you must consider, is that arctic tend to be formed seating, not open seating. I enjoy the moulded seating, I feel like I have more control in the tub, others like the open seating and that may be someting to consider as well.
Good luck. dont fall for the hype, educate yourself and wet test.
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very well said bosco0633!!! I agree. FF or TP. Its in your preference. MOST I do say MOST quality tubs are the same cost range per month for hydro. Keep in mind when you are talking to people about monthly hydro costs is that hyrdo rates are different in each georgraphical areas.
You and only you can decide what tubs suites you and your familys needs. Don't forget.....wet test.
Good luck
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Bosco is right on. If you wet test the spa and like it, Arctic is a fine brand, appears to be well made, and appears to be at least on par with other brands in terms of heat efficiencies.
The marketing spin that folks here hate: Arctic came out favorably in a test by the Alberta Research Council. The caveat is ARC consulted with Arctic so there are those who feel the results are biased. Also the test environment had to be a contolled one, therefore actual performance out in the elements may vary. Folks here also moaned about the test because Arctic does supply a thicker cover standard which could provide an advantage in such a test. But if you are comparing brands, not insulation methods, and you test what comes with the spa (as ARC bought the spas themselves from independent dealers) I see no issue other than the test parameters could have been defined a bit better in the report.
Also as Bosco points out, Arctic generally has more defined seating, although they have a few models that are more open. That becomes a personal preference issue. We preferred it. The armrests in the four corner seats in the Tundra allow even my wife at 5'2" to use to the deepest seat and make it very easy to stay in the seats in general.
When you have spas that are well insulated, by either method, I think there are other factors than method of insulation that should drive the decision
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a different spin on this might be, is one loader than the other. IMHO FF is quieter.
Ray
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The tub you have now is 20 years old and ready for replacement?
What brand of tub is that?
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I think that the above responses are all very accurate and well thought out. Most all of your better made spas will cost ABOUT the same to run and even IF one was say 20% better (Marquis... ;)...j/k).....you are only talking about 3 to 4 dollars....Find the dealer and spa you are most comfortable with and you should be fine.
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a different spin on this might be, is one loader than the other. IMHO FF is quieter.
Ray
I have sold both, used both methods. IMO Coleman (a TP) was about the quietest tub I had heard. Many shoppers agreed.
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I sell both types, Coleman and Jacuzzi. Side be side in the showroom the Colemans are quieter.
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Could this be moved to "Beating a Dead Horse" before we start, well, beating a dead horse?
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I sell both types, Coleman and Jacuzzi. Side be side in the showroom the Colemans are quieter.
Just a question, are the Jacuzzi 48 frame pumps and the Coleman's 56 frame if so this might be the reason for them being quieter.
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and fwiw, some colemans only have 1 pump.
I find it hard to believe that a if two spas have identical pumps, the TP is qoing to be quiter than a FF.
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Just a question, are the Jacuzzi 48 frame pumps and the Coleman's 56 frame if so this might be the reason for them being quieter.
The Colemans had 48 frame pumps not long ago and they were just as quiet. IMO the benifit of the larger 56 frame pump is it runs cooler than a 48 frame.
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....wait there's that sound again....hear it???????????
Yep, another can of worms is getting opened up slowley ;)
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I also own an Arctic Spa, and am very happy with the tub. This is my first tub, so I really can't compare it to the competition, but, I will say that it is an exceptionally well built tub.
The ergonomic design is not for all, but that is why you wet test.
The fiberglass floor, shell, cabinet, and cover to name a few are all really built to last. The warranty is on par with the best warranties out there.
I don't think that you could hook it up to the power grid and co-generate power as some of the AS salesman might lead you to believe, but it is a power efficient tub...as tubs go.
I have one complaint. Compared to other tubs I have sat in...this tub is noisy. The pumps are a bit louder than average, and the diverter valves can make a racket under certain settings.
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Excellent well-balanced, insightful post Fletch.
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Yes I have an Arctic also. It's got three pumps and I simply can't believe it's louder than other brands I tested that only had two and weren't as powerful and didn't move as much water..............
I do notice that the diverters in certain positions get loud, particulary when you have nearly all the flow directed to one side of the diverter. It sounds like it can't decide on the water/air mix to allow. I also notice that when the blower is on, the bubbling causes quite a racket and the blower itself does have a "whine" to it.
There appear to be variables that can contribute to "loudness" that may or may not be directly attributable to the method of insulation. When we were at a show recently, we didn't notice Arctic standing out as particularly noisy although ambient noise was high and may have masked everyone's noise level.
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Thanks again, I think that I have decided on the Pacific Spa for a number of personal preferences, but I am always second guessing myself. Ergo, I may not be done deciding just yet.
GM
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....wait there's that sound again....hear it???????????
Yep, another can of worms is getting opened up slowley ;)
I love that phrase. ;D ;D ;D
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and fwiw, some colemans only have 1 pump.
I find it hard to believe that a if two spas have identical pumps, the TP is qoing to be quiter than a FF.
You dont have to beleive it. I have sold Beachcomber, Coleman, D-1 (side by side with the Coleman on the floor) and Hydropool. I have observed countless other brands shopping, TP, FF and Arctic.
Coleman was the quietest. Hands down.
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You dont have to beleive it. I have sold Beachcomber, Coleman, D-1 (side by side with the Coleman on the floor) and Hydropool. I have observed countless other brands shopping, TP, FF and Arctic.
Coleman was the quietest. Hands down.
So, there is actual evidence that Coleman is quieter, BUT, there's no evidence that TP is quieter than FF. That's simply as assumption. There is the possibility that if you full foamed a Coleman it would be even quieter.
Get it quiet enough, and at some point it could really beat out Arctic. It's been discouvered Arctic can't cogenerate electricity, but perhaps Coleman could cogenerate scilence. Imaging it. A spa SO quiet it actually eliminates other noises around it.
Does your neighbours dog keep you up at night from it's barking?
Traffic noise on the street causing you insomnia?
Kids bickering and screaming driving you crazy?
Do you never want to hear your wife nag you again?
Well my friends, all you have to do is turn on your spa! This spa is so quiet the dB meter runs in the negative. THATS RIGHT, turn on this spa and it will absord the sounds around it making your life once again a peacful quiet bliss.
P.S. This spa's jets are so powerful, be sure to use them to power wash your driveway whenever you drain the spa (anyone still remember where this came from? :-) )
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You dont have to beleive it. I have sold Beachcomber, Coleman, D-1 (side by side with the Coleman on the floor) and Hydropool. I have observed countless other brands shopping, TP, FF and Arctic.
Coleman was the quietest. Hands down.
I really dont believe it as I was at the local Coleman dealer yesterday and the noise from the water flow inside the plumbing was quite loud compared to other brands while the pumps were in full operation. Were you referrring to when it is only in filter mode or idle between filter modes as I would have to say that Cal Spas, L.A Spas and Hotspring are all quieter during full operation.
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So, there is actual evidence that Coleman is quieter, BUT, there's no evidence that TP is quieter than FF. That's simply as assumption. There is the possibility that if you full foamed a Coleman it would be even quieter.
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Agreed. In fact I found Arctic tubs to be a little loud. Not sure why. Perhaps the polystyrene is a better sound insulator than 2lb foam.
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If everyone is saying that it is a personal preference between full foam and the perimeter insulation, shouldn't the people who have lost power in below 32 degree weather answer the real test? Will my tub freeze if I am without power for a week especially since it was not a cheap purchase? I don't have to worry about my house because I have a generator for those times but I can't run my tub on it. I personally have had this happen and I have full foam. I did not suffer from frozen pumps and my tub was in tact when the power was restored. I guess I figure this is like house insulation, the more you have the better you are. How can this be different? It doesn't seem logical that both would work the same.
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It may come down to the design of the specific spa.
Some TP spas may hold heat better than some FF's, and vice versa.
I can only use my experience as an example. Last week I got a FLO error on my Sundance Optima, which is full foam. The heater wouldn't switch on for about 36 hours or so. But there was power to the spa, so the filtration pump ran as scheduled, but the circulation pump and it's related plumbing did not run.
I'd say the temperature during this period averaged maybe 10 degrees farenheit.
The water temperature dropped about 4 degrees, maybe 5 in this 36 hours, and none of the circulation pump plumbing had any signs of freezing. I didn't have to worry about the 2 main pumps freezing, since they could still run. I suspect that the couple hours of filtration- running the spa water into the unheated and uninsulated part of the spa and back in possibly contributed to the temperature decrease. The method and quality of the full foam in a spa would certainly impact it's ability to hold heat- more so in colder temperatures than I had to deal with.
In the same situation, a TP spa would have released water heat into the cabinet cavity, and how well it was retained there would be totally dependent on how well the cabinet of the spa was insulated. A leaky cabinet would have sapped a lot of heat, especially if it was windy out, which it was for me. A well insulated cabinet would hold heat better.
Despite the rantings of our lunatic friend in CO,
I don't think we'll ever settle the FF vs TP debate. There are good expamples and bad examples of both types.
On Arjuna's board, a recent poster commented on how much heat he detected leaking from his Haven.
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I guess I figure this is like house insulation, the more you have the better you are. How can this be different?
I don't think it is quite that easy. I'm no expert in thermodynamics, but there is a difference in the way heat moves through water, solids, and air. My crude understanding: in solids, it radiates in all directions -- air loses density as it warms, so it rises -- and water, I believe, mixes through a series of inversions. Then you have the whole dead air space issue. How that all relates to a hot tub that contains all three, I have idea, and apparently the engineers that design tubs are split on the answer.
The FF/TP debate has been done so many times that it has earned its "dead horse" status. One thing that there seems to be consensus on is that the effectiveness of each insulation method is probably more dependent on how well it is executed than which method is chosen. It would seem to me that TP is probably easier to do poorly, and conversely...difficult to do well, which is why only a few top quality spas use it. That doesn't mean the good ones aren't equal to or superior to FF. To add to the confusion, I would suspect that one method might be superior in moderate ambient temps while the other does better when it is cold out. Which one, I don't know.
As far as surviving a power out freeze, as Brewman identified, a FF tub's equipment is at risk if water isn't circulating through the compartment. On the other hand, a TP tub has the heat from the water warming the air space the equipment is in. Which one turns into a block of ice first? I don't think we'll find any volunteers to run that experiment. :)
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Well it got down to -13 degrees in Centennial Colorado and -19 in other areas around. So we will see which if any calls come in today regarding freezing of any brand of tub.
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A simple way of thinking about full foam,
Where is the equipment compartment and what is between it and the elements?
If the only thing between the pump and heater is just a wood door or has vents to let heat out
you actually have plumbing on an outside wall, when you think about it, you wouldn't insulate a house that way, so why would you want a hot tub sitting out in the winter, with water filled pumps and an uninsulated door.
Just a thought,
Plumbing is not meant to be on an outside wall.
Better to keep all plumbing in an insulated cabinet
and have the heat in the cabinet radiate through the shell, and if the shell has no insulation on it, the shell
will transfer the heat into the tub and if the power goes out you have 4 - 5 hundred gallons of hot water which can radiate back into the cabinet.
hope this helps,
Don
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So Don, I should insulate the cabinet door on my tub?
What ype of hot tub do you have?
What do you do for a living?
Welcome to the forum!
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A simple way of thinking about full foam,
Where is the equipment compartment and what is between it and the elements?
If the only thing between the pump and heater is just a wood door or has vents to let heat out
you actually have plumbing on an outside wall, when you think about it, you wouldn't insulate a house that way, so why would you want a hot tub sitting out in the winter, with water filled pumps and an uninsulated door.
Just a thought,
Plumbing is not meant to be on an outside wall.
Better to keep all plumbing in an insulated cabinet
and have the heat in the cabinet radiate through the shell, and if the shell has no insulation on it, the shell
will transfer the heat into the tub and if the power goes out you have 4 - 5 hundred gallons of hot water which can radiate back into the cabinet.
hope this helps,
Don
Most FF dealers in this area sell a winter kit for there equipment area which insulates the equipment area from the elements. Just another thought! And with very very little heat loss coming from the vessel itself it makes it a wash versus the other insulation method.
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So Don, I should insulate the cabinet door on my tub?
That, plus remove the insulation from the shell of your tub, so that it can heat the equipment. ;)