Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: skylark350 on November 01, 2005, 08:10:46 pm
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I have sort of (still open to suggestions) narrowed my focus to the D 1 Chairman II and the HS Envoy. Also saw the Master LSX but not as interested yet.
I plan on wet testing at HS on Saturday but the Vista is filled not the Envoy. The lounge and therapy seat look very similar but the Vista has 2.5 HP pumps vs Envoy at 2.0HP. Will a soak in the Vista be similar enough to the Envoy to judge?
Thanks for your advise.
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We tested the Chairman II and the HS Grandee. I would not buy the HS without testing the tub that you are interested in. We wanted to test the HS Grandee HP, but they only had the old Grandee filled. We didn't buy from them.
We also liked the new D1 Californian, but ended up buying the Marquis Epic. Since you are "still open to suggestions", I would suggest looking at the Marquis'. They are very nice!
Mine should arrive in two weeks, I can't wait!!
Good luck, you are on the right path with wet testing! Don't buy without testing all that you are interested in.
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jd
Thanks for the advise.
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I, too, am a Marquis Epic owner. Just got ours delivered on Saturday. We LOVE IT!! I highly recommend it.
We also wet tested the HS Vista, Sovereign, & Envoy. All 3 of those spas feel differently. I would not buy any spa without being able to wet test it. If you're interested in the Envoy...wet test it. It is absolutely not the same as the Vista. Of the 3 HS we tested, we liked the Envoy the best.
I agree with jdheffer...if you're still looking, put Marquis on your list. The Epic is truly an excellent spa.
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but the Vista has 2.5 HP pumps vs Envoy at 2.0HP. Will a soak in the Vista be similar enough to the Envoy to judge?
I can't say but there is one misconception people sometimes have. Many would assume the spa with the 2.5 hp pumps would have stronger jets by definition. However, when 2 spas are from the same series often the larger one also has more jets which is largely why it also has more hp but the gpm per jet is probably similar. Wet testing will clear up many of your questions.
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Skylark, Spatech is right about the feel of the jets, they will be the same pressure.
The difference in the way the Vista and Envoy sit is in regards to the captain's seat. In the Envoy, it is positioned in line with the huge foot jet. This will give you a direct, forceful foot and leg massage. In the Vista, the captain's chair is at an angle to the foot jet. I don't like this as it pushes me sideways (I weigh 250) and is not as comfortable to me as the Envoy.
I sell 7 Envoys to every Vista in my store.
Good luck with whatever spa you choose. For the most part, you are looking at very nice brands.
Terminator
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Terminator,
Thank you for responding to my post.
It's a real difficult choice. I need to do wet testing.
The master LSX seats looked interesting, however to me (and I'm no engineer) the fit and finish of the HS and D1 seemed superior.
I have also now seen the Epic which is also made nicely and has its following however there seems to be a difference in opinior re the tri zone ... and the fact that all jets aren't on at the same time ...
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Terminator,
The master LSX seats looked interesting, however to me (and I'm no engineer) the fit and finish of the HS and D1 seemed superior.
A friend owns the LSX and it is a comfortable tub.
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Terminator,
I have also now seen the Epic which is also made nicely and has its following however there seems to be a difference in opinior re the tri zone ... and the fact that all jets aren't on at the same time ...
Look at the whole story.....there is no magic in making a spa most all run off 50 or a lesser number 60 amps of juice ....which means they will run only so much equipment ....no matter what tales you may be told all makers will all push ABOUT the same amount of horse power as 50 or 60 amps will limit what you can run along with your heater, a few makers do add the extra pump but do so at the expense of running the heater while having all 3 THERAPY pumps running. What this means is that if you want every jet to run you than have 2 choices take away jets or make them smaller to cerate more pressure .......Most makers use a divert valve these are 2 way valves, Marquis using a 3 way valve which they hold a paten on, it allows them to add more jets while increasing the water flow of these jets. The mistake that some people make and what some of the competitors do, is to tell customers is that you can not have all the jets running at once in a Marquis BUT what they leave out IS you can have all the seats running at once as a example the deep therapy seat in the Epic has a total of 13 not counting neck jets and the smallest of these jets are rated for 20 gallons of water per minute you also have the HK 40 jets that are 40 GPM...with out the tri zone and the ability to move the water within the seat you could never have that many jets or these high flow type of jets. The Epic or any Marquis may not be the spa that fits YOU best but not discount it because of not running all the jets at once, their entry level spas do can do that if you want.
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I have also now seen the Epic which is also made nicely and has its following however there seems to be a difference in opinior re the tri zone ... and the fact that all jets aren't on at the same time ...
Skylark, I just want to add to what Mendocino101 had to say about the Marquis. I too shy'd away from the Marquis at first because I thought I wanted to a tub that you could have all jets on at the same time. After testing the Marquis and the other tubs we were looking at (HS & D1), we realized it wasn't that big of a deal. The fit and therapy of the Marquis Epic was way superior for us. We did go back and re-tested the Marquis again and found out that you could have 5 of the 6 seats in the epic on at the same time. If you split the tri-zone you can even get all 6 seats on with additional jets (not full strength of course).
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I have also now seen the Epic which is also made nicely and has its following however there seems to be a difference in opinior re the tri zone ... and the fact that all jets aren't on at the same time ...
Skylark, I just want to add to what Mendocino101 had to say about the Marquis. I too shy'd away from the Marquis at first because I thought I wanted to a tub that you could have all jets on at the same time. After testing the Marquis and the other tubs we were looking at (HS & D1), we realized it wasn't that big of a deal. The fit and therapy of the Marquis Epic was way superior "for us". We did go back and re-tested the Marquis again and found out that you could have 5 of the 6 seats in the epic on at the same time. If you split the tri-zone you can even get all 6 seats on with additional jets (not full strength of course).
Give a Marquis a wet test before you buy, it's worth a try.
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Thanks all I guess I have to test soak all the tubs to really decide.
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sky,
I'm a very happy LSX owner. Please read my review at the review section here for more details. It's been in service since 7/11/04 and has been issue free.
The fit and finish of the LSX is very nice and is in no way inferior to other brands.
That being said, I think you are looking at some excellent tub choices. The difference will be in the wet test. I didn't have the opportunity to test the Epic or the D1 but I did test the Envoy and the Vista when I was shopping. I just felt the LSX to be the best therapy for me at the best price at the time. Your job is to wet test, cut the best deal you can (not the least expensive but the best) and get a good feel for your retailer. Good luck and let me know if you would like any other info regarding the LSX. 8)
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Windsurfdog
I will definitely wet test the LSX.
Boy, picking the right tub is stressful (and a lot of $$$).
I just want to be happy with the purchase and destress!!!
Thanks
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Windsurfdog
I will definitely wet test the LSX.
Boy, picking the right tub is stressful (and a lot of $$$).
I just want to be happy with the purchase and destress!!!
Thanks
Don't let it stress you out. Do some wet testing and have fun in the process. After checking out a few, you'll probably be surprised how easy the decision comes.
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a few makers do add the extra pump but do so at the expense of running the heater while having all 3 THERAPY pumps running. What this means is that if you want every jet to run you than have 2 choices take away jets or make them smaller to cerate more pressure .......
So what exactly is the downside to running three pumps again? If you can run three main therapy pumps and give good therapy to every seat, what's not to like about that?
You suggest that you can't use two pumps and provide adequate therapy with all diverters at neutral. The Marquis solution is to eliminate that option and provide concentrated therapy at the expense of running all the jets - yes? So if you add another pump you can get the best of both worlds?
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Boy, picking the right tub is stressful (and a lot of $$$).
I just want to be happy with the purchase and destress!!!
Thanks
Skylark, have fun! ;D Try and look at it like you have a pot of gold in your pocket and people are going to bend over backwards to please you, to make you comfortable, to make your shopping experience as enjoyable as possible. Take your bathing suit and sit in as many spas as you like. Ask any question you want. Never feel pressure. If anyone out there is less than accomodating to you and your pot of gold, move on to the next person. Treat it like an adventure and the journey can be half the fun! ;D Good luck and enjoy yourself!
Terminator
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Don't sign anything or give a deposit to anyone. I had a bad experience where a company's definition of "hold a tub for you" meant that they would not give your deposit money back to you.
DO NOT GIVE THEM MONEY UNTIL YOU ARE DONE NEGOTIATING!
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stl-rex and terminator offer wonderful advice.....enjoy your shopping as much as you can.....the end of the rainbow will be right in your back yard soon..... 8)
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So what exactly is the downside to running three pumps again? If you can run three main therapy pumps and give good therapy to every seat, what's not to like about that?
You suggest that you can't use two pumps and provide adequate therapy with all diverters at neutral. The Marquis solution is to eliminate that option and provide concentrated therapy at the expense of running all the jets - yes? So if you add another pump you can get the best of both worlds?
To run 3 pumps at once you heater in effect becomes like a spa that runs off 110 it will not run at the same time as all three pumps and that is the point that all makes are limited to what 50 or 60 amps of electric can supply, It is the same reason when you hear some makers touting 5 or 6 horse power pumps it is a blatant lie the simple fact that is not open to debate or preference is that 50 or again 60 amps of electrical will not power pumps and a heater of that size they need more juice to run them. This than just leaves with 2 choices make the jets smaller to create power if you want a large jet count like those who claim 70,80 or more jets when you look at what is being touted as a jet you will see it is not going to do nothing more than tickle you, or you run fewer jets, if you look at the makers who are most commonly respected you will find them to have very comparable amounts of jets in their spas and that with the Marquis it will be slightly higher jet count because of the tri zone. But as has been mentioned above....wet test and find the spa that fits you best. I would say forget the specs for the most part that have to do with jet count and HP numbers and instead sit in the spa and see what feels best to you......
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Take Mendocino's post, delete all sentences EXCEPT the last two, and you have some EXCELLENT advice. Forget all the other marketing garbage and let your wet test be your guide. 8)
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i am new to this forum but have owned a hot tub now for over 3 years i shopped all major brands that were in my area, hot springs ,caldera, beachcomber, most were over 12k.iwanted a tub for 6 person that included a lounge am/FM CD stereo 60 or so jets and real wood not plastic.. i found a brand on line called spas direct called there toll free number spoke to there rep a fellow named john, he assured me that his product is second to none and that they were a direct manufacturer I was a little worried about making such a large purchase on line but he gave me a number of references to call and every one said the same thing a awesome tub.Well i deiced to purchase a 6 person with lounge and stereo it arrived i had 2 of my buddies with me to move it one guy is a builder of fine homes the other is a landscaper, all 3 of us couldn't believe what a beautifully hot tub it was. any way to make a long story short i have had this tub for over 3 years with no problems at all!! just great soaking time!! before any of you guys by a tub check these guys out!!
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Stan,
It's good to hear a positive story about buying on-line as I hear I often hear the other story. It's still an unwise choice in my opinion and a few postive experieinces here and there are too few and too far between to convince me otherwise but I'm glad it worked out for you.
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To run 3 pumps at once you heater in effect becomes like a spa that runs off 110 it will not run at the same time as all three pumps.
I'm still waiting for the negative to this.
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I'm still waiting for the negative to this.
You can't have the heater on when all 3 pumps are on so the controller automatically disables the heater until one of the pumps is turned off. How much of a negative that is depends on where you live, how long you soak, what is the outside temp, how many people are in it (you don't always run all 3 pumps at once), etc. If you live in Vegas I'd imagine it's hardly ever an issue. If you live in Chicago it may be an issue at certain times.
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Take Mendocino's post, delete all sentences EXCEPT the last two, and you have some EXCELLENT advice. Forget all the other marketing garbage and let your wet test be your guide. 8)
What kind of a rude dog are you.....If am stating something that is untrue please point it out. You cannot run 3 pumps and a heater all at the same time, If this is untrue please enlighten us all with your break though in electrical law ....If you want to believe that it is OK to lie about HP power , than you are the right guy for the makers who tout this lie as it is total BS .....if it does not matter to you fine but that does not change that it is in fact BS, why would you take offense to it. Again what did I say that is untrue.
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You can't have the heater on when all 3 pumps are on so the controller automatically disables the heater until one of the pumps is turned off. How much of a negative that is depends on where you live, how long you soak, what is the outside temp, how many people are in it (you don't always run all 3 pumps at once), etc. If you live in Vegas I'd imagine it's hardly ever an issue. If you live in Chicago it may be an issue at certain times.
Well, I can think of one brand that seems to be able to run three pumps without having the heater run and not have issues in the cold. That alleviates the requirement to make do with two pumps as Mendo suggests is necessary. It also gives very good power to all jets even with the diverters neutral. I won't say the name for fear of banishment to the dead horse forum.
P.S. This is all part of some good natured ribbing I've exchanged with Mendo in the past. Personally, I like him, maybe because he reminds me of Homer Simpson ;D
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Well, I can think of one brand that seems to be able to run three pumps without having the heater run and not have issues in the cold. That alleviates the requirement to make do with two pumps as Mendo suggests is necessary.
It will maintain the heat pretty well (same as the other spas with 3 pumps) but it will lose definitely loose heat with the cover off. How much of an issue varies as I'd mentioned earlier. It's like stirring a cup of coffee; are you doing it indoors or outside,summer or winter, 15 seconds or 15 minutes, etc.
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It will maintain the heat pretty well (same as the other spas with 3 pumps) but it will lose definitely loose heat with the cover off. How much of an issue varies as I'd mentioned earlier. It's like stirring a cup of coffee; are you doing it indoors or outside,summer or winter, 15 seconds or 15 minutes, etc.
I'll let you know. It could be argued the other three pump tubs are of a different design and don't make as efficient of use of the pump heat. I won't get the sub zero temps of the folks up north, but if it holds or gains after 40 minutes to an hour in the teens I'd say it's doing OK. We've only hit the 30's and it's still gaining temp during operation without the heater running.
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I'll let you know. It could be argued the other three pump tubs are of a different design and don't make as efficient of use of the pump heat. I won't get the sub zero temps of the folks up north, but if it holds or gains after 40 minutes to an hour in the teens I'd say it's doing OK. We've only hit the 30's and it's still gaining temp during operation without the heater running.
Sure, some pumps may put out more heat than others and some spas will hold heat in on the sides more than others but with the cover open I doubt there'll be much of any difference in heat loss between spas that have their heaters off. Not anything to throw the gloves off over.
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Not anything to throw the gloves off over.
Nah - most of it's fun speculation and polite banter. If anything to answer my own question, I am going to check it out. Of course it might be late Jan. before we get the temps to really do it.
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What kind of a rude dog are you.....If am stating something that is untrue please point it out. You cannot run 3 pumps and a heater all at the same time, If this is untrue please enlighten us all with your break though in electrical law ....If you want to believe that it is OK to lie about HP power , than you are the right guy for the makers who tout this lie as it is total BS .....if it does not matter to you fine but that does not change that it is in fact BS, why would you take offense to it. Again what did I say that is untrue.
Sorry, Mendo, I was trying to compliment your post.....great advice. All it needed was a little sifting......
It didn't have anything to do with truth or untruth.....you stated your opinion and there's certainly nothing wrong with that. I felt that there was nothing there but confusion for the thread starter except for the last two sentences which were outstanding. Horsepower.....shmorsepower. Number of pumps/jets.....who cares? As you stated, it's all in the wet test. Any consumer that cannot see through the obvious marketing bs gets what they deserve. It's our job here to help those newbies that ask to get past all of that bs. The beginning of your post propagates it......the end of your post gets the message across. Sorry if you feel your toes are crushed but that's my story and I'm stickin' to it.....nothing personal.
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So what exactly is the downside to running three pumps again? If you can run three main therapy pumps and give good therapy to every seat, what's not to like about that?
I didnt read the whole thread yet, so forgive me if someone already answered.
The downside to running 3 therapy pumps at once is that you cannot run the heater. The spa pak will tell the heater not to run.
If the heater (4KW or greater) is running with 11 or more bHP of pump, the spa will draw more than 50 Amps. This could result in the breaker tripping and would definitely result in the #6 wire running quite hot. For these reasons, the spa pak tells the heater not to run while three therapy pumps are running.
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I didnt read the whole thread yet, so forgive me if someone already answered.
The downside to running 3 therapy pumps at once is that you cannot run the heater. The spa pak will tell the heater not to run.
If the heater (4KW or greater) is running with 11 or more bHP of pump, the spa will draw more than 50 Amps. This could result in the breaker tripping and would definitely result in the #6 wire running quite hot. For these reasons, the spa pak tells the heater not to run while three therapy pumps are running.
Noone actually believes that the breaker will actually handle the full 50 amps do they, dont they usually trip over 43 amps?
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There seems to be a lot of people here propagating something that just isn't true. Here's how my LSX handles the power stuff:
1--24/7 circ pump
2--2 speed therapy pumps (b.h.p./c.h.p., who cares--marketing bs. They run and they run well.)
1--1 speed therapy pump (ditto)
Between the three therapy pumps, there are at least 12 combinations (you do the math if you want to know exactly how many) of high speed/low speed/on/off settings. The only one that causes the heater to shut off is if both 2 speed motors are on high and the 1 speed motor is on.....that's it. When all three motors are on this one combination, there is considerable heat transfer to the water. Enough to keep the water to temp here in Florida? Definitely......too much many times. In Canada? You'll have to ask someone with this same setup there. The point is this: You CAN run all three pumps at the same time with the heater......just not the combination I stated. This is the truth......no opinion. Now let's put this to rest and get back to helping people with facts.....the most important being wet test, wet test, wet test.
And please don't expect me to further debate this issue. Accept the fact that this is the truth.....not as I see it but as I've seen it in action in my own tub. Maybe other controllers aren't programmed like this, but mine is.....debate closed.
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You CAN run all three pumps at the same time with the heater......just not the combination I stated. This is the truth......no opinion.
YES, we were only talking about what happens when all 3 pumps are on high speed, not the low speed used to run a waterfall or whateve other reason it would be on low. How often is this an issue? Probably rarely in Florida unless it's a cool day (assuming you have them) and you have the pumps on for 40 minutes (maybe not even then). In cold areas like Canada it depends on length of spa use with the jets on and outside temp. So how often is the spa used with 4 people in it who have the pumps on for 15+ minutes in 15ºF weather? I don't know and even then it's may not be much of an issue.
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Mendocino said:
To run 3 pumps at once you heater in effect becomes like a spa that runs off 110 it will not run at the same time as all three pumps and that is the point...
Spatech t.u.o. said:
You can't have the heater on when all 3 pumps are on so the controller automatically disables the heater until one of the pumps is turned off.
HotTubMan said:
The downside to running 3 therapy pumps at once is that you cannot run the heater. The spa pak will tell the heater not to run.
Spatech t.u.o. said:
YES, we were only talking about what happens when all 3 pumps are on high speed, not the low speed used to run a waterfall or whateve other reason it would be on low.
Thank you. tuo. As you can see in these quotes from the thread, that is not what was said and why I posted as I did. The newbies need accurate information and the information provided in the first three quotes was not correct.
BTW, I never use the low speed to see the waterfalls which are nothing more than fluff anyway. I do use the low speed to enjoy a mild therapy while making it easier to enjoy wonderful conversation when not alone. Otherwise, for me, high speed all the way.
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That is the whole point..... The question was raised about the ability to run every jet at once. and there are only a few ways for this to happen, with those that do use 3 therapy pumps if you want them to run on high speed than its not going to happen with the heater also running.... and again this is not about marketing but simple engineering ..... The real bottom line is jets and hot water will make you feel better after that there are other ways to enhance your hydro therapy experience, its all about what works for you.....I was just pointing out how all jets work and why some makers go down a different path to archive the therapy experience that they offer.
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It didn't have anything to do with truth or untruth.....you stated your opinion and there's certainly nothing wrong with that. .
I am not trying to nick pick here...but what I was pointing out, is that this is NOT my opinion just simple fact about what 50 or 60 amps of power will run. I was leaving my opinion out of it.
Just to add. it would be marketing to lead someone to believe that when you tell them all 3 pumps and your heater will run at the same time......and than leave out only on low speed , that would be very deceptive ....when someone asks about all the jets running I think it is reasonable to assume they mean at their maximum .....I do not think any of us who posted about 3 pumps were ever thinking about low speed and the consumer would not be.
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BTW, I never use the low speed to see the waterfalls which are nothing more than fluff anyway. I do use the low speed to enjoy a mild therapy while making it easier to enjoy wonderful conversation when not alone. Otherwise, for me, high speed all the way.
I do tend to only think of the low speed as being used for filtering and wateralls. I guess someone might have it on for other reasons but I don't see them as having much use for anything else but filtering and waterfalls (in my case, I don't even have a waterfall and I've been able to survive so far ::)).
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Just to add. it would be marketing to lead someone to believe that when you tell them all 3 pumps and your heater will run at the same time......and than leave out only on low speed , that would be very deceptive ....when someone asks about all the jets running I think it is reasonable to assume they mean at their maximum .....I do not think any of us who posted about 3 pumps were ever thinking about low speed and the consumer would not be.
Only problem is the assume part. This thread was meant for newbies to get accurate information--not for you and I to, yet again, debate marketing ethics or lack thereof (anyone seen that dead horse lately?). So even your quoted statement above has inaccuracies.
I'm finished now--I can't make my point any clearer.
And once again, please don't take it personally. Let's just agree to disagree and let the newbies choose.
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I do tend to only think of the low speed as being used for filtering and wateralls. I guess someone might have it on for other reasons but I don't see them as having much use for anything else but filtering and waterfalls (in my case, I don't even have a waterfall and I've been able to survive so far ::)).
Does your personal spa have multi-speed motors? If not, there's a good chance that your viewpoint may be different if it did. There is a definite place for low speed therapy in the spa experience beyond filters and waterfalls. That's the best thing about the LSX....options and flexability.... :)
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I believe that there is also a way to have the heater kick down to a lower output when the big pumps are on.
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Does your personal spa have multi-speed motors? If not, there's a good chance that your viewpoint may be different if it did. There is a definite place for low speed therapy in the spa experience beyond filters and waterfalls. That's the best thing about the LSX....options and flexability.... :)
Yes I am speaking from experieince. For me it's real use if for filtering or a waterfall if you like teh visual (I can skip it and get by). Low spead water flow (I'll skip the word therapy) on my body is about as useful as air blowers jets [size=18][glb]IMO.[/glb][/size]
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Yes I am speaking from experieince. For me it's real use if for filtering or a waterfall if you like teh visual (I can skip it and get by). Low spead water flow (I'll skip the word therapy) on my body is about as useful as air blowers jets [size=18][glb]IMO.[/glb][/size]
Actually, air blower jets seem more useful to me than a pump on low speed. My spa has both so I can speak from experience. I wasn't for for getting the blower, but the wife wanted it. They add a little something if you're in the shallow side seats, but add essentially nothing if you're in one of the corner chairs. My young son likes the bubbles. Quiet, it is not.
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Yes I am speaking from experieince. For me it's real use if for filtering or a waterfall if you like teh visual (I can skip it and get by). Low spead water flow (I'll skip the word therapy) on my body is about as useful as air blowers jets [size=18][glb]IMO.[/glb][/size]
Fair enough.....