Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: mxw128 on September 25, 2005, 02:13:37 pm
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Apart from being able to clean them in the dishwasher, what is the advantage of the tri-x filters? Do they filter as well or better than the standard HS filters?
I just noticed that the sq. ft for a tri-x is only 6.5. (The standard filters (I believe) are much larger that this) I just cleaned mine and the 4 tri x seemed realtively clean, but the one standard filter appeared pretty dirty (so I would assume it's doing a good job) It is the circ pump filter, but I think I should have expected the tri-x filters for the jet pumps to be dirtier.
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I just noticed that the sq. ft for a tri-x is only 6.5.
That HAS to be a typo, no way are they 6.5!
Maybe 65 or 56.5, but not 6.5?
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Sixty five.
65.
And the reason the one on the circ pump is dirtiest is because it runs 24-7. It will tend to get dirty first, which is fine. You can often just clean that one filter. To minimize this - you can run the "Clean Cycle" after each use of the tub.
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I also understand them to be 6.5 sq. ft. filters.
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I also understand them to be 6.5 sq. ft. filters.
Just by knowing filters that can't be true. A 6.5 Sq filter would be about the size of a big coffee cup, maybe. I'd go by Chas or look at their website to see what it says but it can't be 6.5.
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Of course Chas is correct. From the HS website
HS Envoy - Effective Filtration Area 325 sq. ft., top loading, 100% no-bypass filtration (Tri-X®)
That's for the 5 tri-x filters. 325/5 = 65
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Tri-ex filters, filter not only through surface area, but also by depth, so a filter the size of a 30sq ft is more than doubled to 65 sq ft.
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This tri-x doesn't filter any better than standard filter. HS designed only to handle larger gpm flow so they could compete with more jets and higher flow capacity with higher end units. Grandee pumps only push 150 gpm - (5) 30 sq. ft. vs. Envoy 325 gpm - (5) 65 sq. ft.
It was a smart way to keep their 100% no bypass and still compete with higher flowing therapy system. Tri-x wasn't meant to filter better, just handle more water.
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Tri-x wasn't meant to filter better, just handle more water.
It also lasts much longer, and can be tossed into the dishwasher when it's time for cleaning.
Since it allows more waterflow - and has much more surface area - I would say it filters better than a smaller, traditional filter. However, I don't think the size particle it will stop is smaller - so from that standpoint I would agree with your statement.
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Yes. Other advantages would obviously be cleaning. My point was just to highlight their primary advantage being handling capacity.
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let's not forget to shut the "HEAT DRY" OFF when using the dishwasher.
melted, warped, cracked plastic can be good for filter sales.
use soap, don't put any dishes in. AND IT IS 65 sq.ft.
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Yes. Other advantages would obviously be cleaning. My point was just to highlight their primary advantage being handling capacity.
Speaking of filtering "better", yes the tri-x do not (I believe) filter to smaller particles. But that does not mean they don't filter better. Why? How?
From day 1 filters begin to degrade as particles get stuck in them. This is one reason why people advise 1-micron filter folks to replace their filters: after a few months they are very gummed up and cleaning isn't a good option. BUT, before the cleaning time, they have been slowly clogging with gunk. It's what filters do best.
The only way to combat that is to either allow slightly larger particles through the filter to reduce clogging and/or introduce more surface area to the filters.
Filtering by depth is, in my opinion, a pretty shady way of selling a filter. If the surface layer is clogged the innards of the filter are just not going to have the same opportunity to filter. I had not read that the tri-x filters also filter by depth. I thought they got their surface area through that "deep" spiral design and that it was, indeed, surface area. But, I could be wrong.
Anyhow, the real increased filtration benefit is the greatly expanded square footage. In the 3-4 months between water changes this does, in my opinion, yield noticably better filtration because the filtration will remain consistent longer, even through the particle size has not changed.
-Ed
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This tri-x doesn't filter any better than standard filter. HS designed only to handle larger gpm flow so they could compete with more jets and higher flow capacity with higher end units. Grandee pumps only push 150 gpm - (5) 30 sq. ft. vs. Envoy 325 gpm - (5) 65 sq. ft.
It was a smart way to keep their 100% no bypass and still compete with higher flowing therapy system. Tri-x wasn't meant to filter better, just handle more water.
The Grandee's filter sq ft is the same as the Envoy (325 sq ft, and has been for about 4 months) unless you're looking at the Classic Series Grandee w/ the smaller pumps.
I would comfortably say that since the Tri-x filter:
(1) Clogs less frequent (Ultimately saving wear and tear on the 24 hr circ pump)
(2) Last twice as long (supposedly, it's yet to be seen)
(3) Does filter through depth and surface (hense the larger sq footage for the same size cart.)
(4) Is easier to clean (Dishwasher)
Was in fact designed to be a better filter, although the statement of handeling more gpm is correct, there are many other reasons why it was derived. ;)
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The five filters in my Envoy are not any more effective than the single filter was in my Caldera Geneva. Much ado about nothing. Really. I am also not convinced that filtering 100% of the water 100% of the time is either necessary or worth the cost in space required to do it.
Different way to skin a cat, yes. Real benefits, no.
Regards,
Bill
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The five filters in my Envoy are not any more effective than the single filter was in my Caldera Geneva. Much ado about nothing. Really. I am also not convinced that filtering 100% of the water 100% of the time is either necessary or worth the cost in space required to do it.
Different way to skin a cat, yes. Real benefits, no.
Regards,
Bill
I respectfully have to strongly disagree. How on earth is one standard paper cartridge going to filter as much water as 5 high density cartridges?
This is what some people seem to misunderstand about the truly advantageous design of having 100% No-Bypass Filtration. EVERY single drop of water is filtered BEFORE it enters the plumbing, including the pump and heater. This prevents hair, dead skin, dirt, debris, toenails, etc. from ever entering your spa's equipment.
This is the reason why our dealership, in 21 years of selling HotSpring, has had to replace ONLY 8 jet pumps during this entire time. The fact that our spas do not get garbage sucked into the pumps greatly extends their lifetime.
Terminator
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I respectfully have to strongly disagree. How on earth is one standard paper cartridge going to filter as much water as 5 high density cartridges?
This is what some people seem to misunderstand about the truly advantageous design of having 100% No-Bypass Filtration. EVERY single drop of water is filtered BEFORE it enters the plumbing, including the pump and heater. This prevents hair, dead skin, dirt, debris, toenails, etc. from ever entering your spa's equipment.
This is the reason why our dealership, in 21 years of selling HotSpring, has had to replace ONLY 8 jet pumps during this entire time. The fact that our spas do not get garbage sucked into the pumps greatly extends their lifetime.
Terminator
I agree with the Terminator. This is twice in one day. Hell is going to freeze over soon.
Getting rid of the debris before it hits the pumps, motors, and heater is extremely advantageous to owners during the life of the spa. However, you probably won't see the benefits until later in ownership.
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I agree with the Terminator. This is twice in one day. Hell is going to freeze over soon.
[Fred Sanford] Elizabeth honey! I'm coming to see ya! It's the big one![Fred Sanford]
Terminator
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OMG, now that I have wiped the tears out of my eyes from belly busting laughter, I'd like to ask Chas a question. In you years in business, how many pumps have you had to replace? I'm sure Terminator meant only 8 pump replacements DUE TO DEBRIS getting in the pumps and causing mechanical seal failure. What about the others that have start capacitor failures, or bad windings, etc.? 8 whew, I thought I was going to hurt my self!
I respectfully have to strongly disagree. How on earth is one standard paper cartridge going to filter as much water as 5 high density cartridges?
This is what some people seem to misunderstand about the truly advantageous design of having 100% No-Bypass Filtration. EVERY single drop of water is filtered BEFORE it enters the plumbing, including the pump and heater. This prevents hair, dead skin, dirt, debris, toenails, etc. from ever entering your spa's equipment.
This is the reason why our dealership, in 21 years of selling HotSpring, has had to replace ONLY 8 jet pumps during this entire time. The fact that our spas do not get garbage sucked into the pumps greatly extends their lifetime.
Terminator
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Filtering by depth is, in my opinion, a pretty shady way of selling a filter. If the surface layer is clogged the innards of the filter are just not going to have the same opportunity to filter. -
"Shady" That's a pretty strong word to use in this situation.
The SHADY depth loading filter method is used in home drinking water purification systems (i. e. Brita), It's the only spa filter system approved by the NSF (National Sanitization Foundation), is the only FDA compliant filter in the industry.
The surface of the filter captures large particles and then the "innards" capture particles too small for traditional paper filters to capure. True the surface layer will clog with use (as will your paper filter) at that time you change your filter (as you would with a paper filter).
In between changes your tub is filtering out finer particles than with a paper filter.
Is it more than you need in your spa? Perhaps. Does it filter better than paper? Definately!
Ask any pool store which is more effective DE(diatomaceous earth) which is "depth loading" or cartridge filters.
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OMG, now that I have wiped the tears out of my eyes from belly busting laughter, I'd like to ask Chas a question. In you years in business, how many pumps have you had to replace? I'm sure Terminator meant only 8 pump replacements DUE TO DEBRIS getting in the pumps and causing mechanical seal failure. What about the others that have start capacitor failures, or bad windings, etc.? 8 whew, I thought I was going to hurt my self!
;D Don't worry Amigo, laughter is the best medicine. And you read it right..........E I G H T Wavemaster Jet Pumps replaced in 20 years. FOUR under warranty, the other FOUR from seal leaks, etc. I double checked with the boss and service manager just to make sure.
We do have to replace a few circ pumps from time to time (usually around the 10 year mark). The $150 circ pump is a helluva lot cheaper than a $600 jet pump like some companies are replacing every few years. ;D
Terminator
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Well, dang, who manufacturs your motors? Franklin (here in Indiana!) Emerson (or is it Imerson) A.O. Smith? We should ALL be using such reliable pump motors!
;D Don't worry Amigo, laughter is the best medicine. And you read it right..........E I G H T Wavemaster Jet Pumps replaced in 20 years. FOUR under warranty, the other FOUR from seal leaks, etc. I double checked with the boss and service manager just to make sure.
We do have to replace a few circ pumps from time to time (usually around the 10 year mark). The $150 circ pump is a helluva lot cheaper than a $600 jet pump like some companies are replacing every few years. ;D
Terminator
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The five filters in my Envoy are not any more effective than the single filter was in my Caldera Geneva. Much ado about nothing. Really. I am also not convinced that filtering 100% of the water 100% of the time is either necessary or worth the cost in space required to do it.
Different way to skin a cat, yes. Real benefits, no.
Regards,
Bill
Bill,
Just curious as to why you didn't purchase another Caldera Geneva after your move? It seems to me that you enjoyed every feature of that spa as opposed to your HS Envoy...In your words: Filters better, more vigorous massage therapy, more comfortable, same quality as the HS (Which is built in a totally seperate facility using totally seperate equipment and building materials with the exception of a few items) etc...?
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We should ALL be using such reliable pump motors!
Nope, you should all be doing 100% No-Bypass Filtration. Do it for the children.
Terminator
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I respectfully have to strongly disagree. How on earth is one standard paper cartridge going to filter as much water as 5 high density cartridges?
This is what some people seem to misunderstand about the truly advantageous design of having 100% No-Bypass Filtration. EVERY single drop of water is filtered BEFORE it enters the plumbing, including the pump and heater. This prevents hair, dead skin, dirt, debris, toenails, etc. from ever entering your spa's equipment.
This is the reason why our dealership, in 21 years of selling HotSpring, has had to replace ONLY 8 jet pumps during this entire time. The fact that our spas do not get garbage sucked into the pumps greatly extends their lifetime.
Terminator
I too must respectfully disagree. ALL spas not only filter the water effectively, but all filters are designed and intended to do the same to similar job of filtering matter out of the water to keep the water clean. Some cartridges will filter from 20 micron of matter from the water down to 1 micron of matter. This relates to the ability of the filter to capture “dirt” in the smallest size of matter. As a filter collects matter, or becomes burdened with dirt, it actually becomes more effective as “smaller matter” can not pass through the filter media eventually to the point when the filter needs to be cleaned.
The 5 “high density cartridges” in the Hot Springs do not filter all the time in spite of the claim of 100% filtration. The high performance pumps have 2 filters each, but are only on during spa use or clean up cycles. Only the circulation pump filters all the time at the rate of 5-6 gpm. A "more correct" statement would be when all of the pumps are on, 100% of the water is being filtered.
“How on earth is one standard paper cartridge going to filter as much water as 5 high density cartridges?”
This is basic math and can be easily calculated. It is not the number of filters present, but the gallons per minute that pass through them. Of course, we can calculate the GPM once again and easily see where not only does this in fact occur, but it exceeds the gpm capacity of the HS on most all other spas making this a debatable subject. I beleive all spas filter well.
Only 8 pumps replaced in 21 years? This does appear to possibly be an exaggeration to make a point. But then, if you have been keeping count over 21 years, and have only replaced 8 pumps, well I suppose you would know, but take the filters out and they all pull that stuff through the plumbing.
I thought there was a time that HS was changing out a lot of circ pumps or was it water flow problems with their heaters and thus aa contributing reason for the tri-x filters for “higher” water flow through the filters. Admittedly, I am not a passionate expert on HS and I never drank their kool aide, so I certainly could be wrong.
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A "more correct" statement would be when all of the pumps are on, 100% of the water is being filtered.
Somewhat correct, but I believe you may be misinterpreting the context of the statement. 100% No-Bypass Filtration means that 100% of the water is filtered BEFORE it enters the plumbing. It is not intended to infer that all five filters are "filtering" 24/7. When the jet pumps are off, water is continuously filtered through the circ pump filter. When the jet pumps are running, water passes through all 5 filters.
Only 8 pumps replaced in 21 years? This does appear to possibly be an exaggeration to make a point. But then, if you have been keeping count over 21 years, and have only replaced 8 pumps, well I suppose you would know, but take the filters out and they all pull that stuff through the plumbing.
:'( It pains me somewhat that you and Wisoki seem to think I'm blowing smoke. I believe that I've represented myself on this board as straightforward as anyone possibly could. I don't hide anything about me or the company I work for. I consider myself to be a straight shooter.
HotSpring IS the world's #1 selling brand of portable spa. There are reasons why they are. The longevity and quality of the product is a primary reason. If other spa companies are not giving their customers the same quality experience of spa ownership, that is to the customer's detriment, and is a shame.
Terminator
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I am not a passionate expert on HS and I never drank their kool aide, so I certainly could be wrong.
I never drank there kool aide either, but the did fix me up a cup of herbal tea made with mushrooms from the local cow pasture... I don't know what happened for the next 8 hours...I must have dozed off...but when I awoke, it was HS or die...Kinda like Ben Stiller in Zoolander: "Must kill the Malaysian Prime Minister" with that song "Relax" playing in the backround.
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I too must respectfully disagree.
Or, maybe, just disagree...
Some cartridges will filter from 20 micron of matter from the water down to 1 micron of matter.
That is a fact. Different companies have different approaches to what is a subjective matter: To what degree do you filter to best balance filter cleanings and water clarity. No one, not even the HS "kool aide" you refer to ??? states otherwise.
The 5 “high density cartridges” in the Hot Springs do not filter all the time in spite of the claim of 100% filtration.
As passive filters, they do, and you are wrong. No water gets into a pump without first going through a filter. That is what no-bypass means. I think you missed this point, or you chose to invent a different an dinaccurate definition of no bypass.
Now, completely separate from no bypass, and what you are probably referring to is how often the the water in the tub is pulled through the filter, as opposed to just hanging out in some corner of the tub. And in that case, you are correct: jets will provide more agitation to keep "dead spots" from happening.
However, the HS circ. pump solution is clearly adequate, quiet, and reliable. Ask any of us happy kool aide drinkers.
Only 8 pumps replaced in 21 years? This does appear to possibly be an exaggeration to make a point.
So glad you "respectfully" disagree with someone by calling them a liar.
Admittedly, I am not a passionate expert on HS and I never drank their kool aide, so I certainly could be wrong.
I think you are wrong, and the whole mentality of your post speaks more to someone with a bone to pick with HS than someone just looking for information. Your not a passionate expert on HS, but you certainly seem passionate about it.
respectfully,
-Ed
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It is OK with me if some of you would like to respectfully disagree about the efficacy of the HS filtering system. To clarify any confusion, the HS system has no bypass and there is no way for any water to be inducted into the pumps before passing through the filtration system. That is a fact, it is not an opinion, and it is not debatable. 100% of the water is filtered every pass, period.
To clarify my comment, I owned a Caldera that uses the more conventional approach of partial filtration, with filter bypass when the pumps are at high speed. Routinely testing for turbidity, a measure of the accumulation of particulate solids, once a week, in both tubs and having the records to back this up, I can report with a high level of certainty that there is no apparent benefit to the HS full filtration method. In other words, turbidity, which increases over time between water changes, does not seem to be any different between the two tubs. My conclusion is that the benefits of the Tri-X filtration system are nebulous. If pump failure rates due to clogging are significantly different for HS than other manufacturers using pumps of equal, high quality, I would be glad to learn the details.
As to Pkud's question, I bought the Envoy because a replacement Geneva, ordered 6 months in advance, could not be delivered when it was needed near the completion of construction of my new home. The Envoy was delivered on schedule at very short notice. Although I miss the Geneva, and prefer it, I like my Envoy very much and am grateful to have the privilege of owning it. I get piqued, though, when things get hyped for erroneous reasons. HS makes a great product, but it is not the only game in town. Caldera, Jacuzzi Premium, Sundown, Marquis, Master, Dimension One. to name a few, are equally excellent and have their own features and benefits. This filtration difference is a red herring.
Regards,
Bill
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I am going to make a batch of Kool-Aid when I get home tonight. Then I am going to drink it.
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As to Pkud's question, I bought the Envoy because a replacement Geneva, ordered 6 months in advance, could not be delivered when it was needed near the completion of construction of my new home. The Envoy was delivered on schedule at very short notice.
Thanks for the reply Bill ;)
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If pump failure rates due to clogging are significantly different for HS than other manufacturers using pumps of equal, high quality, I would be glad to learn the details.
This, sir (with sincere respect), is the whole impetus behind having 100% No-Bypass Filtration. It is not necessarily going to keep the water in the SPA cleaner, it is designed to keep your EQUIPMENT cleaner and thus resulting in a longer lifespan for your spa. That is the greatest benefit of owning a HotSpring. You'll still be using it 20 years from now, if you choose to.
I'm glad to know that you are enjoying your Envoy. I hope to have one in my own backyard soon. :)
Terminator
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Somewhat correct, but I believe you may be misinterpreting the context of the statement. 100% No-Bypass Filtration means that 100% of the water is filtered BEFORE it enters the plumbing. It is not intended to infer that all five filters are "filtering" 24/7. When the jet pumps are off, water is continuously filtered through the circ pump filter. When the jet pumps are running, water passes through all 5 filters.
:'( It pains me somewhat that you and Wisoki seem to think I'm blowing smoke. I believe that I've represented myself on this board as straightforward as anyone possibly could. I don't hide anything about me or the company I work for. I consider myself to be a straight shooter.
HotSpring IS the world's #1 selling brand of portable spa. There are reasons why they are. The longevity and quality of the product is a primary reason. If other spa companies are not giving their customers the same quality experience of spa ownership, that is to the customer's detriment, and is a shame.
Terminator
Thank you for your perspective and I respect your both your knowledge and experience in the industry. Obviously, we all share common interests and sell different product lines that do good jobs for consumers in spite of their marginal differences. If one was that much better than the other they would tend to dominate the industry. It appears there are several dominant manufacturers that are excellant product lines.
As it relates to motors, with 21 years and so many customers that would be .002% motor failure, and I would find that spectacular. But then again, these motors are single speed and run for maybe only 20-40 minutes a day, even if it is 365 days a year for 21 years.
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I respectfully have to strongly disagree
I don’t see where he is calling anyone a liar.
Or, maybe, just disagree...
So glad you "respectfully" disagree with someone by calling them a liar.
I think you are wrong, and the whole mentality of your post speaks more to someone with a bone to pick with HS than someone just looking for information. Your not a passionate expert on HS, but you certainly seem passionate about it.
respectfully,
-Ed
I seem to have pressed your passion button. You are allowed to think whatever you wish, but this is not an issue of what is Right, or what is Wrong, nor is it even what is good, or what is better, but what is different, and our points of view are different. That does not make your way of seeing things the only way to see them, so why be so harsh and judgmental when I admit, I am not the expert that you appear to be. I am truly sorry if I offend you.
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My conclusion is that the benefits of the Tri-X filtration system are nebulous.
Someone mentioned the Grande went from about 150 sq ft filtering to about 300 sq ft at the same time it got larger HP pumps. I think one of the benefits of this new TRI-X filter is not really being mentioned. It allowed Hot Springs to double their filtering area and thus enabled the use of higher HP pumps WITHOUT having to enlarge the filtering compartment. That alone made the system better than the one with the standard filters. So maybe there isn't a big need to compare it to other spa filter systems but to understand what probably drove the change and where it really benefited Hot Springs.
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Again, Spatech, you are on the money. In order to continue to be the only manufacturer offering 100% No-Bypass Filtration while using the HP pumps, there was a choice: either put 10+ filters in the spa (not acceptable) or develop a new filter (Tri-X). It was an innovation born out of necessity.
Terminator
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As it relates to motors, with 21 years and so many customers that would be .002% motor failure, and I would find that spectacular. But then again, these motors are single speed and run for maybe only 20-40 minutes a day, even if it is 365 days a year for 21 years.
Exactly, now you're getting it! :)
Terminator
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I thought I misread the title. With all the posturing going on, I thought for sure it was an Arctic discussion..... ;D
Nothing against HS quality, but the disadvantage I see and whether by default or by design, HS has no model with true 4 corner seating. The Accolade comes close but is pretty small. The corner seats always seemed the most comfortable regardless of brand. I don't know failure rate on pumps, but 5 filters seems like overkill and the cost is a corner seat in the non-lounge models. 4 corner seating is awfully comfy for 2 couples, us and whomever we happen to have over.
I know Ed doesn't like the micropure depth filters, but after reading their website site micropure.ca and catching some older posts regarding them, I feel pretty confident they'll work just fine. It will be interesting to see as they catch on how many mfrs switch. Yes, you can soak and clean paper filters and save a few bucks, but I'd rather not mess with it if I don't have to.
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East Tex Spa:
I wrote: "If pump failure rates due to clogging are significantly different for HS than other manufacturers using pumps of equal, high quality, I would be glad to learn the details."
You replied: "This, sir (with sincere respect), is the whole impetus behind having 100% No-Bypass Filtration."
So you have made a claim, but you have only anecdotal information from your own experience, nothing on the failure rate from competition (keep in mind you would need to establish the pump failure rate for major brands) to back your argument.
Not only can you not back your claim, but your argument is faulty. Filters are installed for the primary purpose of removing particulates from the spa water for sanitary reasons. I am an engineer and I can state that centrifugal pumps can handle a considerable amount of particulate in the water being passed through them without causing pump failures.
As a matter of interest, I would like to hear from any of those interested in this discussion who have spa service backgrounds. Especially from those whose experience is with brands other than HS. Have any of you replaced a pump that failed because of premature impeller erosion? If so, how often have you come across this type of problem? From your experience and observation where such failures did occur, was the water being properly maintained?
My guess is that if the data could be found it would support the contention that pump failures are rarely if ever caused by inadequate filtration. Rather, I would think that poor water chemistry is at the root of most failures.
I am glad that you think HS makes the best spas and the best filtration systems. I think you have blown the significance of the Tri-X filter design way out of proportion. It is a sales argument, not a user benefit of great value. It is nice that they last for a long time and that they can be thoroughly cleaned in an ordinary dishwasher. But they use up a lot of space and the water is not any cleaner in the tub. A mixed blessing.
Thanks,
Bill
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East Tex Spa:
I wrote: "If pump failure rates due to clogging are significantly different for HS than other manufacturers using pumps of equal, high quality, I would be glad to learn the details."
You replied: "This, sir (with sincere respect), is the whole impetus behind having 100% No-Bypass Filtration."
So you have made a claim, but you have only anecdotal information from your own experience, nothing on the failure rate from competition (keep in mind you would need to establish the pump failure rate for major brands) to back your argument.
Not only can you not back your claim, but your argument is faulty.
Sir,
1. I am not an engineer.
2. I have no knowledge of the failure rates of HotSpring Spa pumps nor of any other brand of spa. I never made any such claim. I never attempted to argue with any dealer about their pump failure rate. If they have the same track record as we do, good for them and their customers. I stated an anecdotal position that we (East Texas Spa) have only had to replace 8 pumps in 20 years and I believe it to be in large part because of the 100% No-Bypass Filtration. Nothing more.
3. A couple of dealers accused me of embellishing a bit. I did not.
4. I stand behind my statement that filtering the water before it enters the pump, heater, and plumbing is better than not doing so. Feel free to refute that statement.
5. What claim are you saying I made and which argument can I not back up?
Terminator
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I am glad that you think HS makes the best spas and the best filtration systems. I think you have blown the significance of the Tri-X filter design way out of proportion. It is a sales argument, not a user benefit of great value. It is nice that they last for a long time and that they can be thoroughly cleaned in an ordinary dishwasher. But they use up a lot of space and the water is not any cleaner in the tub. A mixed blessing.
Thanks,
Bill
Again, what have I blown out of proportion in regards to the Tri-X Filter? The only statement I've made regarding those were in complementing Spatech on his keen observation of the necessity of the Tri-X Filters in order to maintain 100% No-Bypass Filtration. You can't use a typical paper cartridge on them as they cannot withstand the waterflow, they will collapse.
Nowhere have I stated they were better than anything else on the market. I don't do that.
It kind of seems like you have confused me with someone else you have had a disagreement with on the forum.
Terminator
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With me being one of the unfortunate people there that does not currently have nor have I ever owned one I must admit the no bypass filtration really appeals to me.
I like the idea that the filter will prevent the sucking up any small items that may find there way into the tub, after all I have a 2 year old sun and things are winding up in all areas. For some reason I do believe that if a service tech were to find a lego in the pump housing of a failed pump it would not be considered a warranty item.
I have been following this thread and felt I had to add my opinion to those being expressed.
I give it to Hotspring, even if this were to be considered nothing more that a marketing gimmik, I do not believe it is, it has worked and made me think about it and think it is a good idea.
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I am truly sorry if I offend you.
Apology accepted!
I wasn't saying you were wrong in your opinion and *I* apologize for implying that. Your definition of no-bypass was wrong. We can all certainly argue about its value.
-Ed
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With me being one of the unfortunate people there that does not currently have nor have I ever owned one I must admit the no bypass filtration really appeals to me.
I like the idea that the filter will prevent the sucking up any small items that may find there way into the tub, after all I have a 2 year old sun and things are winding up in all areas. For some reason I do believe that if a service tech were to find a lego in the pump housing of a failed pump it would not be considered a warranty item.
I have been following this thread and felt I had to add my opinion to those being expressed.
I give it to Hotspring, even if this were to be considered nothing more that a marketing gimmik, I do not believe it is, it has worked and made me think about it and think it is a good idea.
I believe all spas have macro filters to prevent stuff like lego's getting the spa. I wouldn't make it your primary concern. Personally I would focus on fit and float ie are the seating positions comfortable and can you stay in them, and then do the jets feel good/hit you in the right places. Wet test several and pick the one that feels best to you and that's probably the best spa for you.
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WOW, what a chain of responses. I had thought that the number was "65" so I was surprised to see the " . " in between the two numbers molded on them...
I also noticed that one of the tri-x is missing the plastic tube inside the filter (the part that would go over the standpipe) Big deal? Think I should take it back to the dealer?
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Holly crap, the laughs keep coming!
Nope, you should all be doing 100% No-Bypass Filtration. Do it for the children.
Terminator
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I believe all spas have macro filters to prevent stuff like lego's getting the spa. I wouldn't make it your primary concern.
Very true. It's good for keeping sand and small debris out but no spa is going to suck kids toys or bathing suits ;) into the pumps unless a filter or intake is removed.
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I also noticed that one of the tri-x is missing the plastic tube inside the filter (the part that would go over the standpipe) Big deal? Think I should take it back to the dealer?
Anyone know what he means by this?
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East Tex Spa,
You wrote: "I stated an anecdotal position that we (East Texas Spa) have only had to replace 8 pumps in 20 years and I believe it to be in large part because of the 100% No-Bypass Filtration. Nothing more.
...I stand behind my statement that filtering the water before it enters the pump, heater, and plumbing is better than not doing so. Feel free to refute that statement.
... What claim are you saying I made and which argument can I not back up?"
You attribute cause and effect of an aspect of design to an experience that is anecdotal and which you cannot in any sense tie to the actual failures of yours or any other tubs. By your own admission, you have no statistical data. So you infer a conclusion that can not be supported. This from your own words.
You then stand behind your opinion and ask me to repeat myself in rebuttal. To what purpose? Re-read my previous posts if you want to discover what is already part of the record.
You are entitled to hold your opinion, but I think it should be fairly obvious even to you that it is based upon some pretty shaky ground.
Regards,
Bill
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;D
1. I'm not inferring anything. I made a statement about our success with the 100% No-Bypass Filtration system of our spas. If other companies are not as successful with their designs, that is to the detriment of their customers. I have no idea (nor ever claimed to) what the failure rate of pump/heater/controls of other brands are nor did I infer that they fail at a higher rate nor do I really care. I concentrate on serving MY customers.
2. I firmly believe it is better to filter out debris before it enters the internal equipment of a spa than not. If you believe differently, then feel free to offer your reasons why it makes sense (from an engineering perspective) to allow debris into the system when it is so easy prevent it. That is the crux of the discussion.
3. In the interest of cutting through the word parsing and out of context replies, I'll make it as clear, simple, and straightforward as I can to eliminate any doubt regarding my position:
Terminator believes it is better to filter all debris from the spa's water before it enters the plumbing system!
Would you agree? Yes or No (Circle One)
Terminator
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I am going to make a batch of Kool-Aid when I get home tonight. Then I am going to drink it.
I drank the Kool-Aid last night and it was good.
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It has to be better to filter before entering the plumbing and heater and pumps. How much better is the question. The fact that East tx has only 8 pump failures in 20 yrs means something. Maybe his water maintance training for his customers is better than most. Maybe the water in his area is better to start with. Maybe his customers use thier spas less than others. Maybe filtering first does help. Bill don't close your mind to this HS feature. Motor oil is filtered before it goes to the engine,air bfore it goes into the furnace or A/C unit. Any debris that stays out of the machinery in any system is a avantage to that machine. I do feel that is true. How much better is the question. 20yrs 8 pumps is some of the answer
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I respectfully have to strongly disagree. How on earth is one standard paper cartridge going to filter as much water as 5 high density cartridges?
This is what some people seem to misunderstand about the truly advantageous design of having 100% No-Bypass Filtration. EVERY single drop of water is filtered BEFORE it enters the plumbing, including the pump and heater. This prevents hair, dead skin, dirt, debris, toenails, etc. from ever entering your spa's equipment.
This is the reason why our dealership, in 21 years of selling HotSpring, has had to replace ONLY 8 jet pumps during this entire time. The fact that our spas do not get garbage sucked into the pumps greatly extends their lifetime.
Terminator
I really had to think about this for a bit after I read it...
Getting hair and small debris in the impellor can "theoretically" cause early pump failure and therefore sounds great in a sales pitch but the reality is that working on almost every brand out there for close to 20 years I see hardly any pumps fail because of this.
Most pump failures are due to improper water chemistry attacking the shaft seal and causing a leak that corrodes the shaft. Low PH and low Alkaline are the biggest culprits.
Now, having said that I also will say that I attribute a lot of water quality and bacteria issues to bypass filtration so that could add to chemistry issues but not to the point that it rapidly changes acid balance in the entire body.
All in all I have replaced more circulation pumps on spas than just about anything over the years.
I have also had customers that have used paper cartridge filters for up to 5 years. Not that I suggest this but the fact is with proper care you can get more than your monies worth out of a common filter.
I wouldn’t doubt the fact that you will see many other spas in the next 5 years with a filter much like the new HS. It’s still a bit new for me to jump on board with it.
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East Tex Spa
You wrote: "Terminator believes it is better to filter all debris from the spa's water before it enters the plumbing system!
Would you agree? Yes or No (Circle One) "
I can't circle, but my answer is NO. See my earlier posts for the reasons. Pay attention to my comments on measurements of turbidity and centrifugal pump characteristics. Also consider that there are trade-offs involving space utilization that are against the full filtration concept.
Finally, I will point out once again that even though you want to attribute your pump failure rate to full filtration, there are many other reasons why your experience is what it is that are more credible. Reasons involving matters such as specifying high grade pumps, solid QC at the manufacturer to make sure the pumps meet the specifications, good water chemistry (which may be a tribute to your customer care), and so forth. To attribute your experience largely to the filtration system is not supported by the available information. And I have given you supportable information to reach the conclusion that the HS filtration system is not more effective in a measurable way as compared to their sister company, Caldera, who employ a more conventional filtration approach.
Regards,
Bill
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Isn't that way it's called "anecdotial observations?
"Based on my experience, 100% filtration systems seem to break down less. "
You can counter the statment with facts or opions, but to argue his observations is just silly, and makes you look like your trying to beat him down rather than enlighten us.
He never claimed fact, just observations. Relax.
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"Shady" That's a pretty strong word to use in this situation.
The SHADY depth loading filter method is used in home drinking water purification systems (i. e. Brita), It's the only spa filter system approved by the NSF (National Sanitization Foundation), is the only FDA compliant filter in the industry.
The surface of the filter captures large particles and then the "innards" capture particles too small for traditional paper filters to capure. True the surface layer will clog with use (as will your paper filter) at that time you change your filter (as you would with a paper filter).
In between changes your tub is filtering out finer particles than with a paper filter.
Is it more than you need in your spa? Perhaps. Does it filter better than paper? Definately!
Ask any pool store which is more effective DE(diatomaceous earth) which is "depth loading" or cartridge filters.
Sorry, I meant cartridge filters which filter by "depth" and advetise "equivalent surface area" instead of regular surface area is, to me, shady.
Especially when each depth doesn't have a progression of larger to smaller holes, as you described.
-Ed
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I'm trying to remember how many pumps we have replaced. I have had four that came from spas which were set down in the ground without proper drainage and then flooded. One on a Vanguard and two on the same Sovereign. Some folks just don't learn...
There was one more out of warranty for some folks which had a storm surge flood the yard and litterally float the Prodigy ("Home Spa" at the time) around the yard. It was empty when the storm hit, and floated around the yard like a boat. If it had been full it would have needed more than just the pump and motor. This tub was the two-speed single pump model and did not have a circ pump.
But otherwise, I would say about five or six in twenty years. If it's a screaming big deal, I would be glad to do some research to try to find the exact number, but I don't think it would be more than what I said, and might very well be less.
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East Tex Spa
You wrote: "Terminator believes it is better to filter all debris from the spa's water before it enters the plumbing system!
Would you agree? Yes or No (Circle One) "
I can't circle, but my answer is NO.
Regards,
Bill
And there it is. Final results:
Terminator (Salesman)- Believes it is better to filter out debris before it enters the spa pump, heater, and plumbing.
Bill Stevenson (Engineer)- Believes it is NOT better to filter out debris before it enters the spa pump, heater, and plumbing.
And that's all that I have to say about that! :)
Terminator
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Well, for what its worth: I have spas with both systems on our showroom floor, and the ones which do not filter all water tend to have more problems with the diverters getting gritty.
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For the record...."yes"
Result 2/1
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But otherwise, I would say about five or six in twenty years. If it's a screaming big deal, I would be glad to do some research to try to find the exact number, but I don't think it would be more than what I said, and might very well be less.
Uh-oh! Wait'll Wisoki reads this. He'll be laughing at you like he did me. :'(
Terminator
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And there it is. Final results:
Terminator (Salesman)- Believes it is better to filter out debris before it enters the spa pump, heater, and plumbing.
Bill Stevenson (Engineer)- Believes it is NOT better to filter out debris before it enters the spa pump, heater, and plumbing.
And that's all that I have to say about that! :)
Terminator
Very interesting. ??? This does not seem like rocket science :o
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Having worked at NASA, I can vouch for the fact that EVERYTHING that flows through the systems of a rocket gets filtered first.
;)
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Sorry, I meant cartridge filters which filter by "depth" and advetise "equivalent surface area" instead of regular surface area is, to me, shady.
Especially when each depth doesn't have a progression of larger to smaller holes, as you described.
-Ed
"MicroPure filters are very porous. In fact they will only drop 2 psi from new to dirty. Since the filter is made up of caves and caverns there is about 900 sq ft of "surface" material exposed through the entire filter. " from Filterguy in an earlier post.
"Lower density at the surface of the filter with progressively higher density towards the center." from the Micropure.ca website.
Curious why this bothers you so. It appears to be logical and to put a quantitative number to how effective the filter is at removing contaminants both in particle size and efficiency. Does it bother you because it provides marketing fodder or don't you believe in the product itself? If you filter water through a 40 micron filter vs a 1 micron filter, which is more likely to have microscopic contaminants remaining? Is it useful for a spa? Don't we shed particulate matter under 40 microns that one will filter and the other will not?
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You are correct sir!
Uh-oh! Wait'll Wisoki reads this. He'll be laughing at you like he did me. :'(
Terminator
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Anyone know what he means by this?
When I remove the filters from their stand pipes and look through the center, 3 of the four Tri-X filters (my fifth filter is a standard filter) have a plastic tube with holes in it the runs the length of the filter. Like the paper tube in a toilet paper roll. I assume it is meant to help the filter keep its shape. One of the filters does not have this. I don't know if HS changed the way they build the filters, or if I got a dud.
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OMG, now that I have wiped the tears out of my eyes from belly busting laughter, I'd like to ask Chas a question. In you years in business, how many pumps have you had to replace? I'm sure Terminator meant only 8 pump replacements DUE TO DEBRIS getting in the pumps and causing mechanical seal failure. What about the others that have start capacitor failures, or bad windings, etc.? 8 whew, I thought I was going to hurt my self!
So, any idea how many pumps you've replaced?
Chas has done 6 in 20 years, we've done 8 in 21 years. Of course, we've both stayed with a brand we think is the finest in the world the whole time. I can't speak for Chas, but we have always had the utmost confidence in the brand we sell to our customers. That's why we don't feel the need to switch brands on our customers on a regular basis.
I realize you've gone through 2 or 3 brands in the 9 months I've been here. Which one have you had the most success with as far as pumps and which ones have you seemingly had trouble with? ???
Terminator
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Sure, I'll take a guess. Lets set the record straight first. I opened Country Spas 07/2000 selling Jacuzzi brand. On or about 10/2003 Jacuzzi decided I wasn't moving enough spas for their liking and gave the line to some one else. Since then there have been 5 yes FIVE Jacuzzi dealers in this area, 4 of which have gone out of business and the current one that sells a brand which will remain nameless and has shelved the Jacuzzi product, keeping it on board soley for the brand name recognition. Smart move fellas(sarcasm for JPS sincerity for the dealer)! But I digress, I then took on Catalina, Up until 4/2005 when I was made an impressive offer by a dealer here to basicaly do what I do for my self and get paid for it. Those of you that are owners know what I'm talking about! So, in answer to your question, I will stick with the 2 brands I sold in my dealership. I have easily replaced 10 pumps on the Jacuzzi spas for varrious reasons, I have replaced zero pumps on the Cats, admitedly I have fewer of them in the field, but I get no calls on them for either flow problems or heater issues. I also carried Free Flow to hit the 1995 price point, and have replaced 2 pumps in those and have about 6 in the field. Additionally in reply to your remark, "That's why we don't feel the need to switch brands on our customers on a regular basis." Nor do or did I. The grand manufacturer in ALL their wisdom took care of that for me. So, all in all a rough estimate is in 5 years about 12 pumps.
So, any idea how many pumps you've replaced?
Chas has done 6 in 20 years, we've done 8 in 21 years. Of course, we've both stayed with a brand we think is the finest in the world the whole time. I can't speak for Chas, but we have always had the utmost confidence in the brand we sell to our customers. That's why we don't feel the need to switch brands on our customers on a regular basis.
I realize you've gone through 2 or 3 brands in the 9 months I've been here. Which one have you had the most success with as far as pumps and which ones have you seemingly had trouble with? ???
Terminator
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Have'nt been selling HS as long as some out there but we have replaced 2 pumps in 9 years, never even thought about it till this thread came up,... thanks
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So, all in all a rough estimate is in 5 years about 12 pumps.
Well, that ain't all that bad. The way you were ragging on me, I got the idea that maybe you were replacing 10-20/year and that's why our success seemed so incredible to you. Thanks! :)
Terminator
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We have replaced a lot of motors simply because they had a pump seal leak. Instead of changing out the pump seal, which most manufacturers will not cover under warranty, we simply put a new pump in, but it is because of the pump seal.
Unfortunately, we see too many pump seal leaks and a lot of it is caused by water chemistry, or customer neglect running the pumps without water. I suppose we could tell our customer it's not covererd under warranty because of water chemistry or customer neglect and charge them accordingly, but we have never done that. It has been our experience, when a pump seal leak is not detected in the early stages, moisture and chemicals gets back into the bearings and that is when the problems really begin to develope.
If the spa is out of warranty, we will change out the pump seal, but if it has been blowing moisture back into the bearings, the life of the motor has been shortened.
East_Tx_Spas, do you see many pump seals go? I know we have serviced some HS for pump seals. ???
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HS makes a great product, but it is not the only game in town. Caldera, Jacuzzi Premium, Sundown, Marquis, Master, Dimension One. to name a few, are equally excellent and have their own features and benefits. This filtration difference is a red herring.
Regards,
Bill
I sold HS retail for 20 years and I couldn't agree more. I stopped drinking the coolaid years ago and now that I work for a diff spa manuf. and travel to retail spa stores, I see alot of good spas out there. I remember going to a HS sales seminar that was being taught by a former HS employee and his comment was similar: "Now that I am out working with other companys, I realize they are all just big boxes of hot water."
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I think everyone agrees that HS is a great spa. But you've only bragged about the motor replacements or lack there of in 10 - 20 years. How about the other 30-50 components? How about heaters in 20 years? How about circ pumps, flow switches, Moto-massages, etc.> It's nice to talk about the quality in design, but don't get carried away with it.
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Having worked at NASA, I can vouch for the fact that EVERYTHING that flows through the systems of a rocket gets filtered first.
;)
Is NASA using Tri-X now...? ;)
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I think everyone agrees that HS is a great spa. But you've only bragged about the motor replacements or lack there of in 10 - 20 years. How about the other 30-50 components? How about heaters in 20 years? How about circ pumps, flow switches, Moto-massages, etc.> It's nice to talk about the quality in design, but don't get carried away with it.
I'm sorry. I didn't think it would be pertinent to make a list of the other 30-50 components. Quite frankly, I'm very busy selling spas lately.
Heaters- Some of the older style had to be replaced. Didn't cost the customer one red cent. New ones are working great!
Circ Pumps- Maybe 20/ year
Flow Switches- No idea. Personally, never been made aware of any problems since I've been here
Moto-Massages- Replace maybe 2 or 3/ year on older spas. Maybe 5/ year
Etc- I have no idea
Gotta customer, gotta go!
Terminator
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You ought to have those 8 motors on display in your showroom. That would be powerful.
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Do Hotspring spas still use the large Pac Fab pumps?
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You ought to have those 8 motors on display in your showroom. That would be powerful.
Kyle, that is an awesome idea! Thank you...I'll get to work on it. I doubt we still have them but I'll see. :)
Terminator