Hot Tub Forum

Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: gregtub on September 19, 2005, 07:17:45 pm

Title: 40A breaker?
Post by: gregtub on September 19, 2005, 07:17:45 pm: My Sundance Maxxus arrived today! Previous to that I had a Vita Spa Elan which ran fine off of the 40A breaker/6 gauge wire.

The manual for the Sundance indicates the heater will not operate while while both jet pumps are running if wired to anything less than a 60A breaker.

To my knowledge a breaker is either off or on; no inbetween. Can I try running the tub with the 40A, and see if it trips or should I go with a bigger breaker from the start? How would the tub know what breaker it is hooked up to, besides the actual breaker tripping?

-Greg
Title: Re: 40A breaker?
Post by: hottub.pool_boy on September 19, 2005, 08:10:28 pm: sure!, only thing that could happen is when both jet pumps are on and it calls for heat, if the amp draw of the spa exceeds 90%-100% of the breaker capacity it will trip.
Replace the breaker 40amp breaker with the 60amp.
Title: Re: 40A breaker?
Post by: Dr. Spa™ Ret. on September 19, 2005, 08:21:13 pm: The purpose of a circuit breaker is to protect the wires running from it from overheating and possibly causing a fire. If your wires aren't rated for 60 amps, changing the 40a breaker could very well cause a fire.
Title: Re: 40A breaker?
Post by: Cola on September 19, 2005, 09:30:26 pm: Let's start out by finding out how long the wire is from the main breaker box to the GFI box and then from the GFI panel to the tub. Please post and I will calculate the wires rating for you.
Title: Re: 40A breaker?
Post by: Brewman on September 19, 2005, 10:32:03 pm: Take Cola up on his offer to check your wire length for voltage drop. If your wire can safely handle a 60 amp breaker, then put one in or you might be getting a lot of nusinace trips. If the wire isn't up for 60 amp breaker (Long wire run) don't replace that breaker and either have the dealer set the jumper for a lower draw, or upgrade the wire. If you have a relatively short or moderate run, you are probably ok. 6 gauge wire is rated for up to 60 amps.
Title: Re: 40A breaker?
Post by: Vinny on September 19, 2005, 10:43:44 pm: Greg,

Quite honestly, with the question you asked, even when you give cola the info - hire a professional electrician.

Electricity is not something to play with if you don't have a clue about it's dangers!
Title: Re: 40A breaker?
Post by: Hubjeep on September 19, 2005, 11:57:15 pm: Quote
If you have a relatively short or moderate run, you are probably ok. 6 gauge wire is rated for up to 60 amps.

I am curious, what is considered a short or moderate run in terms of length?
Title: Re: 40A breaker?
Post by: SerjicalStrike on September 20, 2005, 07:53:01 am: The Maxxus draws 48 amps on full load when setup for 60amp mode. It draws 40 when set up for 50 amps.

A 40 amp breaker will definitely not work.
Title: Re: 40A breaker?
Post by: Brewman on September 20, 2005, 08:28:22 am: Quote

I am curious, what is considered a short or moderate run in terms of length?

I have my 6 gauge running from a sub panel I installed in my basement, to the shutoff next to the spa. I'd say that run is maybe 40' long, and I didn't have to derate the wire.
That was for THWN wire in 3/4" PVC electrical conduit. I'd consider this length short to moderate.
I can't remember exactly the limits I was working with, but I'm thinking that even if I exceeded 100' I'd still have been ok.
I just did the research for my spa wiring project, so I'd have to check my sources to see at what length for my application I'd need to go up a size to account for voltage drop.
Title: Re: 40A breaker?
Post by: Brewman on September 20, 2005, 08:33:53 am: Quote
To my knowledge a breaker is either off or on; no inbetween. Can I try running the tub with the 40A, and see if it trips or should I go with a bigger breaker from the start? How would the tub know what breaker it is hooked up to, besides the actual breaker tripping?

-Greg

You are correct. There is only tripped or not tripped.
And the spa itself can't know what size the breaker is, or if there even is a breaker.
Current is drawn, not pushed. If you power up the Maxxus and it draws enough current, the breaker will trip.
Don't go with the 40 amp breaker unless you have the jumper on your spa set for a 40 amp. Not sure if the Maxxus has that option or not. My Optima can be set for a 60, 50, and either a 30 or 40 amper.
All you'll do is constantly trip the breaker if you leave in that 40, especially if you turn on a pump or two and the heater kicks in. The jumper setting on you spa prevent those things from all going on at once to accomodate smaller wiring breaker combos.
Title: Re: 40A breaker?
Post by: Chas on September 20, 2005, 10:26:00 am: You should find out the actual length of wire you have, and then look at the National Electrical Code to find out whether or not you SHOULD run a 60 amp breaker before you try.

Call most any electrician and ask them to come check it out - but be sure they know you want them to show it to you in the book.

I have run into two types of problems with undersized wires: burned up componants due to undervoltage, and melted or burned up wires.

Friends don't let friends undersize their wire.....
Title: Re: 40A breaker?
Post by: Brookenstein on September 20, 2005, 01:29:32 pm: Can I hijack this post for a second for something kinda sorta off topic??

Reading this wiring stuff has me a bit worried for when I had my AC unit installed a few months back. The guys pulled off the old breaker (a 30A I think) and replaced it with a 40A. Should I be concerned about the wiring being able to handle the difference? They assured me at the time it was fine, but now I'm wondering if it was a cost cutting measure and if I need to have an electrician check it out.
Title: Re: 40A breaker?
Post by: Brewman on September 20, 2005, 01:44:35 pm: Similar thing happened to me when we built the house we currently live in. We paid the builder for an a/c electrical rough in, intending to do the actual a/c unit on our own (it was cheaper for a way better unit).
When the installers put in the a/c compressor, they noted that my builders electrician put in a 30 amp breaker, and the recommended breaker was 40 amps, which I installed myself. For the few bucks the breaker cost, I didn't bother the builder to fix it.
Anyway, the wire installed for my a/c was rated for the 40 amps, so no problem with the larger breaker.

Do you know what size wire was installed?
You can use 10 gauge for up to 30 amps, but 40 amps needs 8 gauge. That's for copper wire.
Title: Re: 40A breaker?
Post by: Brookenstein on September 20, 2005, 01:49:02 pm: Quote
Do you know what size wire was installed?
You can use 10 gauge for up to 30 amps, but 40 amps needs 8 gauge. That's for copper wire.

I have no clue. Are they color coded by guage? Or is there some dummy proof way for me to tell by looking at it?
Title: Re: 40A breaker?
Post by: Brewman on September 20, 2005, 03:22:51 pm: I checked my wiring by reading the cable sheathing, which I had to remove the cover for my breaker panel to do. If they used romex cable (Several individually insulated wires contained in a plastic sheathing) on your a/c, it should say on the sheathing the type of wire, like "8/2 w/ground or AWG" or similar. The 8 part of the number is the gauge. For the 40 amps you want 8. If it says 10/2, then you have 10 gauge.

If you can't read the sheathing, or if you have individual wires in a conduit instead of romex, it's harder to tell, and you'd have to have someone who know their wire to look at it.
Title: Re: 40A breaker?
Post by: Brookenstein on September 20, 2005, 06:19:50 pm: If it isn't copper wire, what is the other kind? There is an inspection note that says something about aluminum... could that be the type of wiring I have? Anyway, I can't tell what the guage is. There are 2 wires. One white one that has magic marker on it to look black and the other one was either black or hot pink. I forgot already. Anyway, the wires were real thick looking especially in comparison to some on the 15A ones. Hopefully I'm fine. When I have someone out to give me estimates on the wiring for the spa, I will have them check it out for me.

Thanks for the help.
Title: Re: 40A breaker?
Post by: crapjack on September 20, 2005, 09:13:51 pm: I would check name plate rating on tub "full load amps" to see if 40amp breaker will hold the load. There is NO harm in trying the 40, if it draws too much it will trip the breaker which will not harm a thing, that is what they DO.
If it trips or you are suspect upgrade breaker to 60amp your #6 wire is rated for that current anyways. The only time length of wire comes in to play is if it's hundreds of feet long.

enjoy
Title: Re: 40A breaker?
Post by: Cola on September 20, 2005, 10:05:22 pm: Here is the real deal.
These calculations are fact, not opinion.

The allowable length of wire is based on voltage drop. This will correspond to the load required. Also, a 60 amp breaker is designed to be loaded to 48 amps (80%). I pulled out my copy of the Ontario Electrical Code Book - similar to NEC (US standard). Section 8-102 states that "Voltage drop in an installation shall not exceed 3% in a feeder or branch circuit. Table D3 shows that #6 wire loaded to 50 amps at 120 volt is good for 7.8 meters with a 1% voltage drop. Multiply by 3 for the 3% and again by two for 240 volt and you get (7.8 X 3 X 2 =) 46.8 meters. This works out to 153.5 feet. So if your run is less than 153 feet and you are using #6 copper wire and your full load amps (FLA) are less than 48 amps, then go ahead and install the 60 amp GFI. Don't forget to pull a permit, it's your tail, not mine.

A quick chart for copper wire at 240 VAC
Tub full load amps 32 40 50
Max length of #6 wire in feet 240' 193' 153.5'
Max length of #8 wire in feet 151.5' 122' N/A
Good luck
Title: Re: 40A breaker?
Post by: Brewman on September 21, 2005, 08:39:49 am: Quote
If it isn't copper wire, what is the other kind? There is an inspection note that says something about aluminum... could that be the type of wiring I have? Anyway, I can't tell what the guage is. There are 2 wires. One white one that has magic marker on it to look black and the other one was either black or hot pink. I forgot already. Anyway, the wires were real thick looking especially in comparison to some on the 15A ones. Hopefully I'm fine. When I have someone out to give me estimates on the wiring for the spa, I will have them check it out for me.

Thanks for the help.

Your wiring is either copper or aluminum. That you can often tell by the color of the wire iteself. Copper wire will look like the color of a penny, aluminum wire will look like silver color.
Do have this checked when you have an electrician over- just for peace of mind.
Good luck.
Title: Re: 40A breaker?
Post by: Brewman on September 21, 2005, 08:43:14 am: Quote
I would check name plate rating on tub "full load amps" to see if 40amp breaker will hold the load. There is NO harm in trying the 40, if it draws too much it will trip the breaker which will not harm a thing, that is what they DO.
If it trips or you are suspect upgrade breaker to 60amp your #6 wire is rated for that current anyways. The only time length of wire comes in to play is if it's hundreds of feet long.

enjoy

A 40 amp breaker on the Maxxus will barely hold if the Maxxus jumper is set to 50 amps, at that point the spa will draw up to 40, right at the limit of the breaker. At 50 amps, the heater won't kick on under certain pump combinations. If the jumper is set to 60 amps, and I believe that is the standard on the Maxxus, the amp draw is up to 48 amps, and will definately trip that breaker.
It may not hurt anything, but who wants to be constantly resetting the breaker?
Do the right thing and use the 60.
Or have your jumper set to allow a 40 amper. You'll be pretty restricted in what you can power on in that spa if you do that, however.
Title: Re: 40A breaker?
Post by: Spatech_tuo on September 21, 2005, 11:12:17 am: Quote
Copper wire will look like the color of a penny, aluminum wire will look like silver color.

I gotta remember to write that down! ;)
Title: Re: 40A breaker?
Post by: Brookenstein on September 21, 2005, 11:53:07 am: Quote

I gotta remember to write that down! ;)

Are you making fun of my wiring stupidity? :o

The wiring is copper then. I had my husband look at it to see what he thinks and he compared it to his speaker wire and is guessing that it was 10 guage because his 8 guage speaker wire is so much bigger. But, the speaker wire is braided or whatever, so I'm not sure if that is a good comparison or not. I'm still thinking I need an electrician to look at it.
Title: Re: 40A breaker?
Post by: Spatech_tuo on September 21, 2005, 12:10:04 pm: Quote

Are you making fun of my wiring stupidity? :o

Only if you didn't know what colors copper and aluminum were! ;D

BTW, the wire gauge size is probably printed on the outside insulating jacket of the wires themselves in case hubby didn't already check.
Title: Re: 40A breaker?
Post by: stl-rex on September 21, 2005, 12:18:32 pm: Quote
I'm still thinking I need an electrician to look at it.

That would be my suggestion. You spent all that money on the tub. Why not just a little more to make sure what powers it is adequate and correct. I would think you could risk fire and equipment damage if you allow too much current through an inadequately sized wire.
Title: Re: 40A breaker?
Post by: Brookenstein on September 21, 2005, 12:25:07 pm: Quote

BTW, the wire gauge size is probably printed on the outside insulating jacket of the wires themselves in case hubby didn't already check.

Thats what I figured ad I looked there first, but don't see anything. The thicker white covered wire has black magic marker all over it, so it might be covering up something. But I looked at the different wires in there and didn't see anything labeled.

The house hasn't burned down in the last 3 mo, hopefully it won't in the meantime before I can get someone to check it out.